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[Salsa]

Most of the game I thought Booker was the Songbird because of this.

A lot of people still think that. I dont.

I think it'd be a pretty cheap reveal. Considering how the game managed to surprise most people having some sort of reveal like that on DLC when everyone already took a crack it and "figured it out" would be really silly and wouldnt live up to the twists in the actual game.

I think it's best left unanswered. He's just a genetically modified guy and his relationship with Elizabeth is such because they grew a bond after spending so much time together.

Like I imagine a slow-sorta guy, mentally abused being inside there. Same thing with Big Daddies and their Little Sisters, how attached they become to them. It's almost as if they had a sort of fatherly but at the same time childish attitude towards them.

 

[Vire]

I wish the wrench on the airship had fallen into Rapture somehow. You walk right past where it was after all, but that might be a little too pandering.

Yes, yes it would have been.

I think it was close to perfect as it was. Not too much, not too little, a short wink and nod.

It felt so fitting that this came at the end of the generation. It's like closing the book on the past half decade or so...

 

[jacksepticeye]

Ken tweeted this lol

I wish the wrench on the airship had fallen into Rapture somehow. You walk right past where it was after all, but that might be a little too pandering.

Doing that is where you start to undermine the integrity of the original and put Infinite on a higher plane

 

[Sorian]

A lot of people still think that. I dont.

I think it'd be a pretty cheap reveal. Considering how the game managed to surprise most people having some sort of reveal like that on DLC when everyone already took a crack it and "figured it out" would be really silly and wouldnt live up to the twists in the actual game.

I think it's best left unanswered. He's just a genetically modified guy and his relationship with Elizabeth is such because they grew a bond after spending so much time together.

Like I imagine a slow-sorta guy, mentally abused being inside there. Same thing with Big Daddies and their Little Sisters, how attached they become to them. It's almost as if they had a sort of fatherly but at the same time childish attitude towards them.

What if they do the DLC and the songbird is another Elizabeth

 

[Salsa]

What if they do the DLC and the songbird is another Elizabeth

elizabeth is booker

 

[Sorian]

elizabeth is booker

The entire game was a dream by songbird. S/he wakes up in the dlc and you see that Liz is still just singing and dancing around the tower like a dummy.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Do you even row?

 

[toastyToast]

elizabeth is booker

Old Elizabeth is Booker's mother. Booker is actually from 1984

 

[hitmon]

Booker becomes Comstock as a result of the baptism, so if Booker dies rather than make a choice, there can never be a Comstock. I figured it was that countless worlds branched off of this choice, not that there were countless Bookers in isolated worlds that had a 50/50 chance of becoming Comstock. There can never be a Comstock because Booker and the Elizabeths erased the choice and Booker can never survive beyond that point in any world anymore.

Are there any transcripts or videos of the Fink voxophones implying he took technology from Rapture to create Songbird, Handymen, and Vigors?

But you would have to assume every Booker that decides to get baptised was willing to die. I don't think Elizabeth would have killed Booker, since she asks Booker if he is sure he wants to go through with it before you open the door (as well as other times she could have killed him).

 

[finsternIRL]

Curious, anyone here watched/watching/will watch Primer? You like/liked/will like it.

 

[Sorian]

Curious, has anyone here watched/watching/will watch Primer? You'd like/liked/will like it.

Live/lived/will live?
Die/died/will die?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Old Elizabeth is Booker's mother. Booker is actually from 1984

booker is a book.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

But you would have to assume every Booker that decides to get baptised was willing to die. I don't think Elizabeth would have killed Booker, since she asks Booker if he is sure he wants to go through with it before you open the door (as well as other times she could have killed him).

The idea isn't that there are infinite Bookers all going through the baptism, the idea is that the baptism is a crossroads. There's only one Booker making that choice, and infinite Bookers branch off from there to become either the protagonist or Comstock. That's the only way I can really comprehend it right now.

 

[antitrop]

These image macros are killing me. =D

 

[Scratch]

Songbird Stuff I found in the Factory during my 1999 playthrough:

Songbird Blueprints that talk about how his weakness is high pressure, due to being adjusted to work well at low pressure.

And what we almost certainly already know or figured out:

the idea for Songbird was taken from a tear that showed Fink the Big Daddies in Rapture. He most likely is made in almost the exact same fashion as a Big Daddy.

 

[Salsa]

the little boy that gives you the telegram at the start?

IS LADY COMSTOCK

 

[CuckFupertino]

Okay, I'm sifting my way through the posts here and thought I'd just touch upon a few things I haven't found fulfilling answers to. If somebody else already offered up an answer to them, please let me know and I'm sorry I missed it. Here we go:

1. I don't get how or why Elizabeth can open tears. It's simply never explained. Do the Luteces "infuse" the ability to her after bringing her to Columbia? That's the only answer that seems to fit with the rest of the story. Why do they give her the ability to open tears at will though?

2. When Elizabeth(s) kill Booker by drowning/smothering him, aren't they actually killing the Booker who already made his choice not to be reborn? As far as I understand BS: Infinite's reality-jumping mechanic to work, when you step through a tear into another reality, you DON'T replace the "you" in that new reality; you're simply a "copy," if you will (albeit who made different choices, etc.). This explains how "Booker" is able to come to Columbia and NOT BE "Comstock." They're separate people. So why when Booker steps through the tear to the moment where he chooses to be/not be baptized, how does killing THAT BOOKER stop the decision? He's not the Booker of that "universe!"

3. I'm unsure if anyone has explained what the outcomes of the choices you make in the game are. i.e., what happens when you choose heads vs. tails? What happens when you choose the bird necklace instead of the cage necklace?

4. Who is the Archangel? I do not have a satisfactory explanation for this. It COULD be a number of people. It could be Elizabeth from the future, manipulating Comstock in the past. It could be there is no Archangel, just Comstock peering through tears. It could be Lutece, but that makes no sense either. Many of Comstock's actions are taken because an Archangel is telling him what will/won't happen, but we never realize who that Archangel is.

5. How the fuck old is Booker supposed to be?! Since the baptism is the inflection point in the branching timelines, we have to figure out how old he is during that moment. Wounded Knee took place in 1890 - 22 years before the majority of Infinite "takes place." We could guess makes Booker about 20 when he is baptized, which would put him at age 42 by the "time" he goes to Columbia. You never get a really great look at Booker during the game, but he sure doesn't seem to be in his 40s.

The reason I put "takes place" and "time" in quotations is that when you're in Columbia, it's not 1912 at all. In fact none of the game really takes place in 1912 - only some of Booker's memories do. The universe/timeline in which Booker goes to Columbia to rescue Elizabeth must take place sometime in the 30s or 40s, because Comstock is definitely in his 60s or 70s. I guess time is kind of irrelevant in Colubmia considering that it's floating in the sky and cut off from the world. Oh, and also because reality-bending tears have been exploited to bring technology through from other times/worlds.

6. Somebody needs to make an infographic so we can keep timelines/alternate universes straight. That somebody might end up being me.

 

[Gorillaz]

Alright imma ask again since it was at the bottom of the last page


What was with Booker after the credits. Anna being in her crib and shit. What were they trying to say? it was going to start all over again?

 

[-COOLIO-]

Doesn't Booker always go to the baptism ceremony though. The one we play as mentions he was there and decides against it at the last moment, unless he has a memory singularity with Comstock that means by drowning the Booker that didn't want to be baptised, there never is a Booker/Comstock beyond that point.

The image fading out with the last Elizabeth was probably an Inception type of thing, I'm pretty sure she disappears too. The final cutscene was likely a red herring

its more about universes that locations. the comstock universes were killed off.

for the purposes of this story it all begins with two universes. the comstock one was killed.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Songbird Stuff I found in the Factory during my 1999 playthrough:

Songbird Blueprints that talk about how his weakness is high pressure, due to being adjusted to work well at low pressure.


And what we almost certainly already know or figured out:


the idea for Songbird was taken from a tear that showed Fink the Big Daddies in Rapture. He most likely is made in almost the exact same fashion as a Big Daddy.

I seen and heard this but didn't hear the start of the voxophone where he talked about it showing him the songbird in a tear. Perhaps it was just columbia in another dimension

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Songbird Stuff I found in the Factory during my 1999 playthrough:

Songbird Blueprints that talk about how his weakness is high pressure, due to being adjusted to work well at low pressure.


And what we almost certainly already know or figured out:


the idea for Songbird was taken from a tear that showed Fink the Big Daddies in Rapture. He most likely is made in almost the exact same fashion as a Big Daddy.

I had that voxophone, but somebody was probably shooting at me or talking to me while it was playing.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Alright imma ask again since it was at the bottom of the last page


What was with Booker after the credits. Anna being in her crib and shit. What were they trying to say? it was going to start all over again?

most agree it was her being in her crib because comstock never took her.

 

[Zia]

Anyone else well up when the Songbird died?

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

most agree it was her being in her crib because comstock never took her.

But every Booker past Wounded Knee is now dead. How could she even be conceived?

 

[jacksepticeye]

Anyone else well up when the Songbird died?

Yeah I brought it up in here before that it was a very sad moment. He struggled and then under Liz's command he just relaxed and let the water take him. It was very sad.
I think songbird was under utilised and then over utilised. Having him take down airships at the end didn't sit well with me. It turned him into a caricature of sorts instead of the ominous presence he had prior. But I'm glad there was no boss battle against him

 

[José Mourinho]

the idea for Songbird was taken from a tear that showed Fink the Big Daddies in Rapture. He most likely is made in almost the exact same fashion as a Big Daddy.

Maybe I'm an ass. But I came across both the pictures and voxophone and wasn't particularly happy with that level of explanation.

 

[-COOLIO-]

But every Booker past Wounded Knee is now dead. How could she even be conceived?

certain bookers, not all bookers. the bookers in the accepting the baptism universes were killed.

 

[Scratch]

I seen and heard this but didn't hear the start of the voxophone where he talked about it showing him the songbird in a tear. Perhaps it was just columbia in another dimension

i really hope it's not a paradox where fink finds the idea of songbird from an alternate universe of columbia that has songbird. in this case, which songbird game first and how?

Which part of the second picture is indicating they're based on Big Daddies?

the man and the machine part. i can't really think of anything else that it would be linked to other than big daddies in bioshock. we already infer that the two are supposed to hold similarities, based on what they do, and how they do it. also how their eyes glow the exact same depending on the situation: yellow - neutral, red - hostile, green - allied.

it might not be true, but that's what i seemed to get from that dialogue

 

[jacksepticeye]

Maybe I'm an ass. But I came across both the pictures and voxophone and wasn't particularly happy with that level of explanation.

You really do want it all written down perfectly explained don't you? Did we ever learn how big daddies were made?

 

[Admiral Snackbar]

certain universes, not bookers. the bookers in the comstock universes were killed.

Correct. Bookers who decide to NOT get Baptized are fine. It's only Baptized Bookers that will potentially become Comstock.

 

[toastyToast]

The Songbird looks a lot more advanced than a Big Daddy too

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

certain universes, not bookers. the bookers in the comstock universes were killed.

Booker died rather than be baptized or not baptized, though. We would have to assume there are Bookers who never went to the baptism in the first place and maybe they would led to an Anna being made, but Booker dies AT the baptism regardless of whether he's baptized or not, doesn't he? Or does he somehow drown himself DURING the baptism and kill only all the Comstocks, while unbaptized Bookers go on to live with Anna. And since all the Comstocks are dead, the Luteces can't come to take Anna.

 

[jacksepticeye]

The Songbird looks a lot more advanced than the Big Daddy too

On the image it says pressure sensitivities, so it's almost the polar opposite of a big daddy. They were divers and didn't get phased by deep sea pressures. Songbird cracked and died in them

 

[Magnus]

Do you even row?

Can someone explain that dialogue to me?

He doesn't ROW?

No, he DOESN'T row.

What?

Lol


Also, asked in the main OT, but figured it makes more sense to ask here:

So, what carries over to a new game when one replays? So far, the only thing I've noticed that does is the game's record of how many Kinetoscopes you've seen. But that statistic only pops up when you see a new one.

 

[José Mourinho]

You really do want it all written down perfectly explained don't you? Did we ever learn how big daddies were made?

Yeah, Suchong talks about it a lot.

Edit: It's like this. Palsmids, we get a whole bunch of information on them in BioShock, we see how they effect people and the direct effect their use has on people and Rapture as a whole. In this, Vigors are being peddled at a market -- and later we see them mass produced -- yet absolutely nobody uses them bar a few enemies. There seems to be no negative effects. Yet all we hear is some random NPC say he'd rather wait until Fink irons out the creases.

So is the level of explanation simply going to be that Fink looked at Rapture copied them and bingo, that's that? There's nothing there, and that's just one key part of the game that's never touched upon.

 

[BHK3]

I need this answered through a PM.

Spoiler

Ok, just found Chen Lin and he's dead and the tear appeared, Eliza says if we go through we don't come back, I doubt that but I doubt us coming back to the same area. I found the code boke for the cipher for the other building, will completing this side quest get me anything or will I return to this same area? I completed the side quest for the other cipher but all I got was a translation and no items or anything so I don't wanna waste my time again. Please pm me the answer I won't be going into this thread again.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Can someone explain that dialogue to me?

He doesn't ROW?

No, he DOESN'T row.

What?

Lol


Also, asked in the main OT, but figured it makes more sense to ask here:

So, what carries over to a new game when one replays? So far, the only thing I've noticed that does is the game's record of how many Kinetoscopes you've seen. But that statistic only pops up when you see a new one.

They're saying none of the Bookers they've brought to the lighthouse have ever rowed.

 

[CuckFupertino]

certain bookers, not all bookers. the bookers in the accepting the baptism universes were killed.

Erm, no. You're wrong. He is killed before he ever makes the choice.

 

[Sorian]

Okay, I'm sifting my way through the posts here and thought I'd just touch upon a few things I haven't found fulfilling answers to. If somebody else already offered up an answer to them, please let me know and I'm sorry I missed it. Here we go:

1. I don't get how or why Elizabeth can open tears. It's simply never explained. Do the Luteces "infuse" the ability to her after bringing her to Columbia? That's the only answer that seems to fit with the rest of the story. Why do they give her the ability to open tears at will though?

2. When Elizabeth(s) kill Booker by drowning/smothering him, aren't they actually killing the Booker who already made his choice not to be reborn? As far as I understand BS: Infinite's reality-jumping mechanic to work, when you step through a tear into another reality, you DON'T replace the "you" in that new reality; you're simply a "copy," if you will (albeit who made different choices, etc.). This explains how "Booker" is able to come to Columbia and NOT BE "Comstock." They're separate people. So why when Booker steps through the tear to the moment where he chooses to be/not be baptized, how does killing THAT BOOKER stop the decision? He's not the Booker of that "universe!"

3. I'm unsure if anyone has explained what the outcomes of the choices you make in the game are. i.e., what happens when you choose heads vs. tails? What happens when you choose the bird necklace instead of the cage necklace?

4. Who is the Archangel? I do not have a satisfactory explanation for this. It COULD be a number of people. It could be Elizabeth from the future, manipulating Comstock in the past. It could be there is no Archangel, just Comstock peering through tears. It could be Lutece, but that makes no sense either. Many of Comstock's actions are taken because an Archangel is telling him what will/won't happen, but we never realize who that Archangel is.

5. How the fuck old is Booker supposed to be?! Since the baptism is the inflection point in the branching timelines, we have to figure out how old he is during that moment. Wounded Knee took place in 1890 - 22 years before the majority of Infinite "takes place." We could guess makes Booker about 20 when he is baptized, which would put him at age 42 by the "time" he goes to Columbia. You never get a really great look at Booker during the game, but he sure doesn't seem to be in his 40s.

The reason I put "takes place" and "time" in quotations is that when you're in Columbia, it's not 1912 at all. In fact none of the game really takes place in 1912 - only some of Booker's memories do. The universe/timeline in which Booker goes to Columbia to rescue Elizabeth must take place sometime in the 30s or 40s, because Comstock is definitely in his 60s or 70s. I guess time is kind of irrelevant in Colubmia considering that it's floating in the sky and cut off from the world. Oh, and also because reality-bending tears have been exploited to bring technology through from other times/worlds.

6. Somebody needs to make an infographic so we can keep timelines/alternate universes straight. That somebody might end up being me.

1. Her pinky was cut off, we are all assuming that having a body part in each reality cause the powers. This is alluded to by a lutece audio diary right before you meet her for the first time.

2. What I personally believe here is that they made such a big deal out of the born again idea because Comstock and Booker are actually considered different people as far as reality is concerned.

3. They are all cosmetic and just serve to show that somethings don't matter in this multiverse theory.

4. Archangel is the luteces and their machine.

5. Yeah, I'd say late 30s early 40s. His birthdate is floating around somewhere.

 

[Alucrid]

Okay, I'm sifting my way through the posts here and thought I'd just touch upon a few things I haven't found fulfilling answers to. If somebody else already offered up an answer to them, please let me know and I'm sorry I missed it. Here we go:

1. I don't get how or why Elizabeth can open tears. It's simply never explained. Do the Luteces "infuse" the ability to her after bringing her to Columbia? That's the only answer that seems to fit with the rest of the story. Why do they give her the ability to open tears at will though?

2. When Elizabeth(s) kill Booker by drowning/smothering him, aren't they actually killing the Booker who already made his choice not to be reborn? As far as I understand BS: Infinite's reality-jumping mechanic to work, when you step through a tear into another reality, you DON'T replace the "you" in that new reality; you're simply a "copy," if you will (albeit who made different choices, etc.). This explains how "Booker" is able to come to Columbia and NOT BE "Comstock." They're separate people. So why when Booker steps through the tear to the moment where he chooses to be/not be baptized, how does killing THAT BOOKER stop the decision? He's not the Booker of that "universe!"

3. I'm unsure if anyone has explained what the outcomes of the choices you make in the game are. i.e., what happens when you choose heads vs. tails? What happens when you choose the bird necklace instead of the cage necklace?

4. Who is the Archangel? I do not have a satisfactory explanation for this. It COULD be a number of people. It could be Elizabeth from the future, manipulating Comstock in the past. It could be there is no Archangel, just Comstock peering through tears. It could be Lutece, but that makes no sense either. Many of Comstock's actions are taken because an Archangel is telling him what will/won't happen, but we never realize who that Archangel is.

5. How the fuck old is Booker supposed to be?! Since the baptism is the inflection point in the branching timelines, we have to figure out how old he is during that moment. Wounded Knee took place in 1890 - 22 years before the majority of Infinite "takes place." We could guess makes Booker about 20 when he is baptized, which would put him at age 42 by the "time" he goes to Columbia. You never get a really great look at Booker during the game, but he sure doesn't seem to be in his 40s.

The reason I put "takes place" and "time" in quotations is that when you're in Columbia, it's not 1912 at all. In fact none of the game really takes place in 1912 - only some of Booker's memories do. The universe/timeline in which Booker goes to Columbia to rescue Elizabeth must take place sometime in the 30s or 40s, because Comstock is definitely in his 60s or 70s. I guess time is kind of irrelevant in Colubmia considering that it's floating in the sky and cut off from the world. Oh, and also because reality-bending tears have been exploited to bring technology through from other times/worlds.

6. Somebody needs to make an infographic so we can keep timelines/alternate universes straight. That somebody might end up being me.

1. Finger being cut off by the portal, since she's in two worlds she can open tears.
2.I'll look for the post about this.
3. Only one I know of so far is the bandaged hand from the ticker booth (draw gun or ask again)
5.

For some reason, almost every timeline I see omits Elizabeth's birth. The game clearly states (in Hall of Heroes at least, probably logs as well) that she was taken to Columbia in 1893, so she was born most likely in the same year, or the one prior. She's 19 in the game. So 1893 seems like the clear answer. So she was definitely born after the baptism.

1890 - Wounded Knee (Booker is 16)
1891 - Baptism (Comstock is 'born', or Booker declines)
1893 - Anna is born, Comstock takes Anna with the help of the Lucetes.
1912 - A guilt-ravaged Booker goes to Columbia through a tear with the aid of the Lucetes, invents a narrative in his head.

Obviously there's more stuff in between the last two, but this is the basics.

5. Comstock aged more rapidly due to his traveling through tears.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Can someone explain that dialogue to me?

He doesn't ROW?

No, he DOESN'T row.

What?

Lol


Also, asked in the main OT, but figured it makes more sense to ask here:

So, what carries over to a new game when one replays? So far, the only thing I've noticed that does is the game's record of how many Kinetoscopes you've seen. But that statistic only pops up when you see a new one.

They're just commenting on the fact they know everything he's gonna do and the type of person he is. They've already brought him to the lighthouse countless times to try this "experiment" of theirs. So it's almost like she says it in a sort of annoyed way "No he DOESN'T row does he?"

 

[-COOLIO-]

Booker died rather than be baptized or not baptized, though. We would have to assume there are Bookers who never went to the baptism in the first place and maybe they would led to an Anna being made, but Booker dies AT the baptism regardless of whether he's baptized or not, doesn't he? Or does he somehow drown himself DURING the baptism and kill only all the Comstocks, while unbaptized Bookers go on to live with Anna. And since all the Comstocks are dead, the Luteces can't come to take Anna.

there's two ponds for baptism.

the pond in the good universe, and the pond in the bad universe. booker is only killed in the pond in the bad universe because that's the common link for comstock universes.

 

[Scratch]

Maybe I'm an ass. But I came across both the pictures and voxophone and wasn't particularly happy with that level of explanation.

it's a pretty big assumption, but if it's true that Fink did have tears that looked into Rapture, it can actually account for where he got the idea for all his inventions, such as Vigors, the Vending Machines (even with the same sort of weird limerick), the turrets, etc.

 

[Alienous]

Can someone explain that dialogue to me?

He doesn't ROW?

No, he DOESN'T row.

What?

Lol


Also, asked in the main OT, but figured it makes more sense to ask here:

So, what carries over to a new game when one replays? So far, the only thing I've noticed that does is the game's record of how many Kinetoscopes you've seen. But that statistic only pops up when you see a new one.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51850959&postcount=2023

 

[-COOLIO-]

Erm, no. You're wrong. He is killed before he ever makes the choice.

she straight up says "no, we're in a different place now". it's a different universe altogether.

 

[Voice of Reason]

there's two ponds for baptism.

the pond in the good universe, and the pond in the bad universe. booker is only killed in the pond in the bad universe because that's the common link for comstock universes.

That's what I think happens. They enter a timeline where he accepts, and is killed before he accepts, as a universe where he rejects is entirely different.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

That's what I think happens. They enter a timeline where he accepts, and is killed before he accepts, as a universe where he rejects is entirely different.

That would be awfully convenient, but might also explain how Anna still exists after the credits.

 

[Sorian]

But every Booker past Wounded Knee is now dead. How could she even be conceived?

What about the Booker's that didn't partake in wounded knee?

 

[CuckFupertino]

there's two ponds for baptism.

the pond in the good universe, and the pond in the bad universe. booker is only killed in the pond in the bad universe because that's the common link for comstock universes.

What? I understand we're all pulling stuff out of our asses here, but that makes no sense in any context. What evidence are you basing this "good universe" or "bad universe" theory off of? Either universe exists because of the decision Booker makes at that moment, i.e. "bad universe" being Comstock's and "good" being DeWitt's. There's no evidence that in the "unvierse" where Booker was killed, he was going to choose A over B. The idea is he was simply killed before he could make a choice.

 

[gdt]

Correct. Bookers who decide to NOT get Baptized are fine. It's only Baptized Bookers that will potentially become Comstock.

I'm not sure thats true. The whole point was to pull out the root...IE before he even makes the choice to get baptized or not.

Right?