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[Voice of Reason]

That would be awfully convenient, but might also explain how Anna still exists after the credits.

That's what happens. There's infinite universes for him accepting and infinite universes of him rejecting. The infinite timeline where he accepts is symbolized by all the infinite possibilities, otherwise personified as the many Elizabeths filling your screen. You are then drowned, and that whole timeline where he accepts is deleted, therefore completely removing its involvement from the universe where Booker rejects it.

 

[Sorian]

I'm not sure thats true. The whole point was to pull out the root...IE before he even makes the choice to get baptized or not.

Right?

That's how I see it. Stop with the nonsense people. Not every story needs a good ending and I wish that silly post-credits scene wasn;t there to muck up this tale.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

It would be quite convenient and strangely "happy ending" if only the Comstocks died. But then again it doesn't really make sense that Booker would just walk up to a baptism and plunge his head into the water. It would make more sense for him to choose to be baptized and then die, eliminating all Comstock worlds.

 

[José Mourinho]

it's a pretty big assumption, but if it's true that Fink did have tears that looked into Rapture, it can actually account for where he got the idea for all his inventions, such as Vigors, the Vending Machines (even with the same sort of weird limerick), the turrets, etc.

Edited my post to talk about that.

Yeah, Suchong talks about it a lot.

Edit: It's like this. Palsmids, we get a whole bunch of information on them in BioShock, we see how they effect people and the direct effect their use has on people and Rapture as a whole. In this, Vigors are being peddled at a market -- and later we see them mass produced -- yet absolutely nobody uses them bar a few enemies. There seems to be no negative effects. Yet all we hear is some random NPC say he'd rather wait until Fink irons out the creases.

So is the level of explanation simply going to be that Fink looked at Rapture copied them and bingo, that's that? There's nothing there, and that's just one key part of the game that's never touched upon.

 

[-COOLIO-]

What? I understand we're all pulling stuff out of our asses here, but that makes no sense in any context. What evidence are you basing this "good universe" or "bad universe" theory off of? Either universe exists because of the decision Booker makes at that moment, i.e. "bad universe" being Comstock's and "good" being DeWitt's. There's no evidence that in the "unvierse" where Booker was killed, he was going to choose A over B. The idea is he was simply killed before he could make a choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-VJ3j2bPJk&t=15m15s

"why are we back here"

"this isnt the same place booker"

 

[Alienous]

The "No, I'm both" only makes sense if he is killed before he can be baptised.

 

[BraXzy]

This is one of them games like a good film. You'll have to play it every now and then just to relive the awesome events. The DLC better be up to snuff, having bought the season pass and all.

I have faith in Ken. He has/had/will have my money, and so it always shall be.

 

[Sorian]

The "No, I'm both" only makes sense if he is killed before he can be baptised.

Yup

 

[hitmon]

Erm, no. You're wrong. He is killed before he ever makes the choice.

I see it as only the Bookers willing to die to end the cycle as the ones to that are killed in the baptism. From what I get from the game, Elizabeth doesn't want to kill Booker. She even asks if he is sure he wants to go through with it. Irony is, the cycle will always continue in another universe.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

I think Fink was underdeveloped in general. The aesthetic of the factory was really cool and he's integral to Columbia, but the guy just talks to you over intercom a few times and then gets shot in the face by Fitzroy.

 

[-COOLIO-]

The "No, I'm both" only makes sense if he is killed before he can be baptised.

pretty sure that's just him coming to the realization that he's comstock in the bad choice universes.

 

[Alxjn]

I'm not sure thats true. The whole point was to pull out the root...IE before he even makes the choice to get baptized or not.

Right?

That's what I thought. He needs to be killed before the timeline branches into either the "accept" baptism or "decline" baptism.

 

[Scratch]

Yeah, Suchong talks about it a lot.

Edit: It's like this. Palsmids, we get a whole bunch of information on them in BioShock, we see how they effect people and the direct effect their use has on people and Rapture as a whole. In this, Vigors are being peddled at a market -- and later we see them mass produced -- yet absolutely nobody uses them bar a few enemies. There seems to be no negative effects. Yet all we hear is some random NPC say he'd rather wait until Fink irons out the creases.

So is the level of explanation simply going to be that Fink looked at Rapture copied them and bingo, that's that? There's nothing there, and that's just one key part of the game that's never touched upon.

it's a valid point. i really wish they talked about how exactly Fink got these ideas and how he executed them. maybe it'll be DLC?

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

That was my initial impression, anyway. Booker can't be allowed to exist beyond the baptism scene whether he's baptized or not.

And I hope for Fink DLC. Definitely an underutilized element of the game.

 

[Alucrid]

The "No, I'm both" only makes sense if he is killed before he can be baptised.

I mean, in either route he's killed "before baptism"

I see it as only the Bookers willing to die to end the cycle as the ones to that are killed in the baptism. From what I get from the game, Elizabeth doesn't want to kill Booker. She even asks if he is sure he wants to go through with it. Irony is, the cycle will always continue in another universe.

No it won't. Regardless of whether we're killing Booker pre-choice or just the Booker who chose Baptism, since that's where Comstock comes from, killing Booker then eliminates all Comstocks.

 

[The One Who Knocks]

Okay, I'm sifting my way through the posts here and thought I'd just touch upon a few things I haven't found fulfilling answers to. If somebody else already offered up an answer to them, please let me know and I'm sorry I missed it. Here we go:

1. I don't get how or why Elizabeth can open tears. It's simply never explained. Do the Luteces "infuse" the ability to her after bringing her to Columbia? That's the only answer that seems to fit with the rest of the story. Why do they give her the ability to open tears at will though?

2. When Elizabeth(s) kill Booker by drowning/smothering him, aren't they actually killing the Booker who already made his choice not to be reborn? As far as I understand BS: Infinite's reality-jumping mechanic to work, when you step through a tear into another reality, you DON'T replace the "you" in that new reality; you're simply a "copy," if you will (albeit who made different choices, etc.). This explains how "Booker" is able to come to Columbia and NOT BE "Comstock." They're separate people. So why when Booker steps through the tear to the moment where he chooses to be/not be baptized, how does killing THAT BOOKER stop the decision? He's not the Booker of that "universe!"

3. I'm unsure if anyone has explained what the outcomes of the choices you make in the game are. i.e., what happens when you choose heads vs. tails? What happens when you choose the bird necklace instead of the cage necklace?

4. Who is the Archangel? I do not have a satisfactory explanation for this. It COULD be a number of people. It could be Elizabeth from the future, manipulating Comstock in the past. It could be there is no Archangel, just Comstock peering through tears. It could be Lutece, but that makes no sense either. Many of Comstock's actions are taken because an Archangel is telling him what will/won't happen, but we never realize who that Archangel is.

5. How the fuck old is Booker supposed to be?! Since the baptism is the inflection point in the branching timelines, we have to figure out how old he is during that moment. Wounded Knee took place in 1890 - 22 years before the majority of Infinite "takes place." We could guess makes Booker about 20 when he is baptized, which would put him at age 42 by the "time" he goes to Columbia. You never get a really great look at Booker during the game, but he sure doesn't seem to be in his 40s.

The reason I put "takes place" and "time" in quotations is that when you're in Columbia, it's not 1912 at all. In fact none of the game really takes place in 1912 - only some of Booker's memories do. The universe/timeline in which Booker goes to Columbia to rescue Elizabeth must take place sometime in the 30s or 40s, because Comstock is definitely in his 60s or 70s. I guess time is kind of irrelevant in Colubmia considering that it's floating in the sky and cut off from the world. Oh, and also because reality-bending tears have been exploited to bring technology through from other times/worlds.

6. Somebody needs to make an infographic so we can keep timelines/alternate universes straight. That somebody might end up being me.

1. The universe doesn't like its peas being mixed with its porridge. Ultimately what gives Elizabeth her powers is from living in the two universe (some have suggested it's because part of her, her finger, is in on set of universes while she is in the other but I'm not a fan of this, I think the circumstances of who she is and where she's from is the answer and that "peas/porridge" Voxaphone, found in Monument Island, to me, is an agreement that it's simply due to being from another set of universes).

2. Elizabeth opens the point in time where Booker chooses to accept or reject the baptism to find redemption. That moment, and that moment specifically, is a constant. In every single universe in which he is alive, the baptism happens. Basically, this Booker isn't stepping into a new universe, it's like Elizabeth had unlocked the chapter select and picked that checkpoint specifically because in every universe, that checkpoint exists. By murdering that Booker, he becomes a paradox (since that Elizabeth can't exist without Comstock and Booker can't have Elizabeth before the conception occurs). As a result, the only option that can eb picked is to reject the baptism (although that depends on the interpretation of the ending you take from the game, personally I like that one).

3. Nothing. Heads is a constant, it's always heads. Bird or cage is a variable, it's a choice, but it's an ultimately insignificant choice because you don't have the power to change anything significant, an alternate version will, or has, made the other.

4. The archangel is propoganda. Comstock sees the future via the Lutece's tears. EDIT: Although, if you want to be specific, they are the archangel but what the people of Columbia was told is propoganda since nobody ever came and told him anything, he saw it for himself with their help.

5. Both Booker's are 37 I believe (it's roughly 37, whether it's 37 or 38 I'm unsure). The machine that creates the tears is extremely hazardous to anybody who encounters it. While the game is taking place (in 1912) Comstock is dyinig of cancer and has already been rendered sterile. I believe it was stated in a Voxaphone (I can't remember the specific one) that it increased aging also.

6. Already done: http://www.abload.de/img/bioshockinfinitetimel19ine.png

Hope that helps.

it's a pretty big assumption, but if it's true that Fink did have tears that looked into Rapture, it can actually account for where he got the idea for all his inventions, such as Vigors, the Vending Machines (even with the same sort of weird limerick), the turrets, etc.

It doesn't have to be Rapture and we know for a fact that he was looking through tears to steal the tech. There's an infinite amount of universes that he could steal from and every single universe has a lighthouse and a creator. There's nothing that stops any of those infinite cities from having similar items.

 

[hitmon]

1. The universe doesn't like its peas being mixed with its porridge. Ultimately what gives Elizabeth her powers is from living in the two universe (some have suggested it's because part of her, her finger, is in on set of universes while she is in the other but I'm not a fan of this, I think the circumstances of who she is and where she's from is the answer and that "peas/porridge" Voxaphone, found in Monument Island, to me, is an agreement that it's simply due to being from another set of universes).

2. Elizabeth opens the point in time where Booker chooses to accept or reject the baptism to find redemption. That moment, and that moment specifically, is a constant. In every single universe in which he is alive, the baptism happens. Basically, this Booker isn't stepping into a new universe, it's like Elizabeth had unlocked the chapter select and picked that checkpoint specifically because in every universe, that checkpoint exists. By murdering that Booker, he becomes a paradox (since that Elizabeth can't exist without Comstock and Booker can't have Elizabeth before the conception occurs). As a result, the only option that can eb picked is to reject the baptism (although that depends on the interpretation of the ending you take from the game, personally I like that one).

3. Nothing. Heads is a constant, it's always heads. Bird or cage is a variable, it's a choice, but it's an ultimately insignificant choice because you don't have the power to change anything significant, an alternate version will, or has, made the other.

4. The archangel is propoganda. Comstock sees the future via the Lutece's tears.

5. Both Booker's are 37 I believe (it's roughly 37, whether it's 37 or 38 I'm unsure). The machine that creates the tears is extremely hazardous to anybody who encounters it. While the game is taking place (in 1912) Comstock is dyinig of cancer and has already been rendered sterile. I believe it was stated in a Voxaphone (I can't remember the specific one) that it increased aging also.

6. Already done: http://www.abload.de/img/bioshockinfinitetimel19ine.png

Hope that helps.

What happens is you chose tails? I chose heads in my playthrough just because I saw all the marks on the heads side. I'm just curious about their reaction or are you saying its game over if you chose tails?

 

[Magnus]

They're just commenting on the fact they know everything he's gonna do and the type of person he is. They've already brought him to the lighthouse countless times to try this "experiment" of theirs. So it's almost like she says it in a sort of annoyed way "No he DOESN'T row does he?"

I don't know why, but the notion of a cycle or loop is being lost on me. Where's the evidence that this has happened repeatedly, instead of, as the game suggests, that it's simply always happening/happened/will happen?

What happens is you chose tails? I chose heads in my playthrough just because I saw all the marks on the heads side. I'm just curious about their reaction or are you saying its game over if you chose tails?

You don't choose. You just hit a button to flip the coin.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Yeah, Suchong talks about it a lot.

Edit: It's like this. Palsmids, we get a whole bunch of information on them in BioShock, we see how they effect people and the direct effect their use has on people and Rapture as a whole. In this, Vigors are being peddled at a market -- and later we see them mass produced -- yet absolutely nobody uses them bar a few enemies. There seems to be no negative effects. Yet all we hear is some random NPC say he'd rather wait until Fink irons out the creases.

So is the level of explanation simply going to be that Fink looked at Rapture copied them and bingo, that's that? There's nothing there, and that's just one key part of the game that's never touched upon.

Fair enough. Been a while since I played the first 2. Maybe it's just lazy explanation or we're supposed to just accept it. Maybe they never bothered and focused on bigger themes etc.

I don't know why, but the notion of a cycle or loop is being lost on me. Where's the evidence that this has happened repeatedly, instead of, as the game suggests, that it's simply always happening/happened/will happen?

Signs saying it's his last chance are one. The heads or tails (it's always been heads) is another. If you pause and actually count those strokes I'm sure it would be a lot of Bookers. When he dies it's the cycle starting again with another Booker it would seem. Just stuff like that suggest it has been done a great many times. The Luteces, at least lady lutece, also feel this time it won't work either as they remark at the start "one doesn't undertake and experiment knowing one HAS failed"

 

[gdt]

What happens is you chose tails? I chose heads in my playthrough just because I saw all the marks on the heads side. I'm just curious about their reaction or are you saying its game over if you chose tails?

IIRC, it doesn't matter what choice you make, it always lands heads.

 

[Admiral Snackbar]

1. The universe doesn't like its peas being mixed with its porridge. Ultimately what gives Elizabeth her powers is from living in the two universe (some have suggested it's because part of her, her finger, is in on set of universes while she is in the other but I'm not a fan of this, I think the circumstances of who she is and where she's from is the answer and that "peas/porridge" Voxaphone, found in Monument Island, to me, is an agreement that it's simply due to being from another set of universes).

2. Elizabeth opens the point in time where Booker chooses to accept or reject the baptism to find redemption. That moment, and that moment specifically, is a constant. In every single universe in which he is alive, the baptism happens. Basically, this Booker isn't stepping into a new universe, it's like Elizabeth had unlocked the chapter select and picked that checkpoint specifically because in every universe, that checkpoint exists. By murdering that Booker, he becomes a paradox (since that Elizabeth can't exist without Comstock and Booker can't have Elizabeth before the conception occurs). As a result, the only option that can eb picked is to reject the baptism (although that depends on the interpretation of the ending you take from the game, personally I like that one).

3. Nothing. Heads is a constant, it's always heads. Bird or cage is a variable, it's a choice, but it's an ultimately insignificant choice because you don't have the power to change anything significant, an alternate version will, or has, made the other.

4. The archangel is propoganda. Comstock sees the future via the Lutece's tears.

5. Both Booker's are 37 I believe (it's roughly 37, whether it's 37 or 38 I'm unsure). The machine that creates the tears is extremely hazardous to anybody who encounters it. While the game is taking place (in 1912) Comstock is dyinig of cancer and has already been rendered sterile. I believe it was stated in a Voxaphone (I can't remember the specific one) that it increased aging also.

6. Already done: http://www.abload.de/img/bioshockinfinitetimel19ine.png

Hope that helps.

I have only just met you and I love you.

 

[José Mourinho]

it's a valid point. i really wish they talked about how exactly Fink got these ideas and how he executed them. maybe it'll be DLC?

That's what I'm after. I want to know did Fink just peer in to the tear and get a few ideas and reverse engineer? Did he not see the outcomes of plasmid use? Maybe he did, do did he perfect the formula or did he not care?

BioShock covers how plasmids and tonics need Adam and Eve to function. So what was the Columbia implementation of these items? There's so much stuff left to be explored that would of been, for me personally, more interesting than much of the stuff we actually got.

Perhaps it will be covered in DLC. Who knows.

 

[gdt]

I don't know why, but the notion of a cycle or loop is being lost on me. Where's the evidence that this has happened repeatedly, instead of, as the game suggests, that it's simply always happening/happened/will happen?

The chalkboard when you choose heads or tails...their knowing of whats going on, there's evidence that they adjust their plans for every time past Bookers have failed....some other cool stuff people have brought up.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

But will we ever find out how Fink figured out how to fire lightning from your hands without injecting sea slug juice into your wrist?

Nobody say quantum physics.

 

[hitmon]

I mean, in either route he's killed "before baptism"



No it won't. Regardless of whether we're killing Booker pre-choice or just the Booker who chose Baptism, since that's where Comstock comes from, killing Booker then eliminates all Comstocks.

If all the Bookers are dead, then how do you explain the scene after the credits?

 

[Fracas]

Now that I've had a while to think about it, I appreciate the ending more. Even though I feel the twist could had a LOT more impact if Comstock had more backstory explained.

 

[gdt]

That's what I'm after. I want to know did Fink just peer in to the tear and get a few ideas and reverse engineer? Did he not see the outcomes of plasmid use? Maybe he did, do did he perfect the formula or did he not care?

BioShock covers how plasmids and tonics need Adam and Eve to function. So what was the Columbia implementation of these items? There's so much stuff left to be explored that would of been, for me personally, more interesting than much of the stuff we actually got.

Perhaps it will be covered in DLC. Who knows.

I think, that we got that stuff in BS1. I'm not sure that digging into the nitty gritty is that essential beyond the couple of Voxophones we got of Fink talking about Rapture.

I mean, sure it be cool to dig into that stuff, but I'm not sure its essential.

Well, for me anyway.

 

[hitmon]

I don't know why, but the notion of a cycle or loop is being lost on me. Where's the evidence that this has happened repeatedly, instead of, as the game suggests, that it's simply always happening/happened/will happen?




You don't choose. You just hit a button to flip the coin.

Wow, my memory sucks. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[gdt]

If all the Bookers are dead, then how do you explain the scene after the credits?

That scene is purely a mindfuck as of yet. There's like no way to explain it. It could just be an emotional touch that doesn't directly tie into the story.

Sort of how that quote starts the game, way before everything else. This could just be something that timeline wise takes place forever ago but it a nice emotional touch to end the story with, same way that out of order quote start it.

 

[Alucrid]

If all the Bookers are dead, then how do you explain the scene after the credits?

Doesn't matter, I was just explaining that once that happens Comstock won't exist, ever, so there is no cycle to be continued. The point in time at which Booker is drowned is another debate entirely.

 

[jacksepticeye]

1. The universe doesn't like its peas being mixed with its porridge. Ultimately what gives Elizabeth her powers is from living in the two universe (some have suggested it's because part of her, her finger, is in on set of universes while she is in the other but I'm not a fan of this, I think the circumstances of who she is and where she's from is the answer and that "peas/porridge" Voxaphone, found in Monument Island, to me, is an agreement that it's simply due to being from another set of universes).
.

But all the characters live in all universes don't they? Other than the pinky being severed there really isn't anything else special about her. Travelling through tears doesn't give you the ability to open them evident from Booker.
you're postulating she's special cos she's in a number of universes. but so is booker and he can't open tears. Her finger is clearly a huge part of it because they make such a big fuss over it and your first meeting with her has her finger show right in front of your face.Your explanation makes less sense than the pinky one IMO

 

[hitmon]

That scene is purely a mindfuck as of yet. There's like no way to explain it. It could just be an emotional touch that doesn't directly tie into the story.

Sort of how that quote starts the game, way before everything else. This could just be something that timeline wise takes place forever ago but it a nice emotional touch to end the story with, same way that out of order quote start it.

I guess with all the religious stuff, its his version of heaven?

 

[Dmax3901]

Ok so I literally just finished it. That Rapture reveal had my jaw to the floor for a good five minutes. I have no idea what the fuck just happened. This is just me getting my thoughts down:

Here's what I got: Elizabeth gets taken by the Songbird, you cross the bridge and 70 years have passed. Liz has been tortured and brainwashed into being a Comstock, creating monsters like the Boys of Silence or whatever they're called and... attacking New York? Why New York? And why in 1982? And why does old Lizzie greet you in friendship instead of with anger like in all the audio recordings from Comstock House? If she has that much agency, why attack New York??

You get sent back, you save Liz and kill Comstock, who mentions the finger. You blow up the siphon, making Liz super powered? She takes you to Rapture, drowns the Songbird and you got to the Sea of Doors. In every universe the same thing happens blah blah.

Booker is a real person, he lives his life, goes through Wounded Knee, seeks redemption, gets baptised... has a daughter at some point, who is Liz. Then... has to... give her away? Bookers starts gambling, owes a lot of money, Lutece shows up says give us your daughter and the debt will go away. Comstock needed a child so he had an heir, just happened to choose DeWitt?

Booker hands over his daughter to wipe away his debt, goes mad with guilt, tries to call off the deal, Liz loses a finger, goes into Columbia dimension and grows up to be Liz we know in the game.

Booker goes even more crazy because he remembers having a daughter but she doesn't exist in his world anymore, the Lutece's have a change of heart and use his memory of the phrase "give us the girl, wipe away the debt", to send him against Comstock for their own reasons? Comstock has prepared for him coming (AD being the mark of the false shepard).

I also couldn't quite make out what the Elizabeths said as they drowned me...

Booker was Comstock? That's a whole nother layer of mindfuck. Someone please help me my brain hurts.

 

[Sorian]

But all the characters live in all universes don't they? Other than the pinky being severed there really isn't anything else special about her. Travelling through tears doesn't give you the ability to open them evident from Booker.
you're postulating she's special cos she's in a number of universes. but so is booker and he can't open tears. Her finger is clearly a huge part of it because they make such a big fuss over it and your first meeting with her has her finger show right in front of your face.Your explanation makes less sense than the pinky one IMO

The same Elizabeth is in two different worlds, that's the difference.

Edit: Just realized you know that already, nvm lol

 

[Salsa]

That scene is purely a mindfuck as of yet. There's like no way to explain it. It could just be an emotional touch that doesn't directly tie into the story.

either in some universe, somewhere, Booker gets to live with his child, and somewhat retain the memories.

or, as I personally think: the whole thing just started over again

as I said in the last couple pages: Booker hears Anna just because he's going mad obssesing after losing her. She's not there. Events in the game are just starting over.

this is actually very clear for me in terms of what I choose to believe

 

[Alienous]

If all the Bookers are dead, then how do you explain the scene after the credits?

Booker & Comstock die -> Elizabeth is never created -> Elizabeth never sets things right -> Things never go wrong -> Time defaults to last consistent moment?

 

[jacksepticeye]

That scene is purely a mindfuck as of yet. There's like no way to explain it. It could just be an emotional touch that doesn't directly tie into the story.

Sort of how that quote starts the game, way before everything else. This could just be something that timeline wise takes place forever ago but it a nice emotional touch to end the story with, same way that out of order quote start it.

I see it as all the baptised variable bookers/comstocks die. But there are a huge number of them that never even go to get baptised and I think the after credits scene is one of those Bookers who finally has a chance to live out his life with Elizabeth properly

Booker & Comstock die -> Elizabeth is never created -> Elizabeth never sets things right -> Things never go wrong -> Time defaults to last consistent moment?

You have a better head and mouth to explain these things than I do. This is now what I believe lol. Everything is reverted to 0 the variables are taken care of
Like the Lost episode with "the constant"

 

[Sorian]

Booker & Comstock die -> Elizabeth is never created -> Elizabeth never sets things right -> Things never go wrong -> Time defaults to last consistent moment?

Or there is a Booker that never went to Wounded Knee.

 

[Alienous]

Ok so I literally just finished it. That Rapture reveal had my jaw to the floor for a good five minutes. I have no idea what the fuck just happened. This is just me getting my thoughts down:

Here's what I got: Elizabeth gets taken by the Songbird, you cross the bridge and 70 years have passed. Liz has been tortured and brainwashed into being a Comstock, creating monsters like the Boys of Silence or whatever they're called and... attacking New York? Why New York? And why in 1982? And why does old Lizzie greet you in friendship instead of with anger like in all the audio recordings from Comstock House? If she has that much agency, why attack New York??

You get sent back, you save Liz and kill Comstock, who mentions the finger. You blow up the siphon, making Liz super powered? She takes you to Rapture, drowns the Songbird and you got to the Sea of Doors. In every universe the same thing happens blah blah.

Booker is a real person, he lives his life, goes through Wounded Knee, seeks redemption, gets baptised... has a daughter at some point, who is Liz. Then... has to... give her away? Bookers starts gambling, owes a lot of money, Lutece shows up says give us your daughter and the debt will go away. Comstock needed a child so he had an heir, just happened to choose DeWitt?

Booker hands over his daughter to wipe away his debt, goes mad with guilt, tries to call off the deal, Liz loses a finger, goes into Columbia dimension and grows up to be Liz we know in the game.

Booker goes even more crazy because he remembers having a daughter but she doesn't exist in his world anymore, the Lutece's have a change of heart and use his memory of the phrase "give us the girl, wipe away the debt", to send him against Comstock for their own reasons? Comstock has prepared for him coming (AD being the mark of the false shepard).

I also couldn't quite make out what the Elizabeths said as they drowned me...

Booker was Comstock? That's a whole nother layer of mindfuck. Someone please help me my brain hurts.

If Booker goes through with the baptism, he becomes Comstock.
If he doesn't, he remains as Booker DeWitt. This Booker eventually sells his child to Comstock, who needs a heir to "drown in flames the mountains of man" (New York).

 

[The One Who Knocks]

But all the characters live in all universes don't they? Other than the pinky being severed there really isn't anything else special about her. Travelling through tears doesn't give you the ability to open them evident from Booker.
you're postulating she's special cos she's in a number of universes. but so is booker and he can't open tears. Her finger is clearly a huge part of it because they make such a big fuss over it and your first meeting with her has her finger show right in front of your face.Your explanation makes less sense than the pinky one IMO

There is something special in that she was born in one but lived in the other from such an early age which is something other characters have not done. I'll try to find the specific Voxaphone but Rosalind Lutece implied that her powers rest in where she was from (which is what her finger is a result of, where she's from). I certainly accept the plausability of it, but I don't think I'm convinced yet.

EDIT: Also, just to clarify, I'm also suggesting that it's that in combination with their experimentation on her, not just as a sole result of where she's from.

EDIT 2: Actually, as you're right, it turns out you are absolutely correct and it's confirmed in the game that it's because she exists in both realities. I had completely misheard that Voxaphone. My apologies to you.
"What makes the girl different? I suspect it has less to do with what she is and more to do with what she's not. A small part of her remains from where she came. It would seem the universe does not like its peas with its porridge."

 

[-COOLIO-]

I see it as only the Bookers willing to die to end the cycle as the ones to that are killed in the baptism. From what I get from the game, Elizabeth doesn't want to kill Booker. She even asks if he is sure he wants to go through with it. Irony is, the cycle will always continue in another universe.

for the plot to work there has to be a finite number of universes that lead to comstock. my guess is that it's 1. it then follows that booker would only need to be killed in that/those universe(s). liz does say 'in other oceans you chose to be baptised' but im taking that to mean that there are many comstock universes that came from that root bad decision in that one universe.

how i see it:

there is only 1 universe that can spiral off into comstock universes. the baptism universe.

everything else is fine.

if this isnt the case, then things seem to fall apart, because:

if there's infinite number of variations of booker accepting/rejecting the baptism, then you would have to kill an infinite number of bookers (even pre choice) because you can't have 1 universe for some reason, diverge in an infinite number of ways at one arbitrary point.

 

[Salsa]

been a while since I spent a whole day talking/thinking about one game's narrative after finishing it.

not since Portal 2, I think

 

[Alienous]

for the plot to work there has to be a finite number of universes that lead to comstock. my guess is that it's 1. it then follows that booker would only need to be killed in that/those universe(s). liz does say 'in other oceans you chose to be baptised' but im taking that to mean that there are many comstock universes that came from that root bad decision in that one universe.

how i see it:

there is only 1 universe that can spiral off into comstock universes. the baptism universe.

everything else is fine.

if this isnt the case, then things seem to fall apart, because:

if there's infinite number of variations of booker accepting/rejecting the baptism, then you would have to kill an infinite number of bookers (even pre choice).

Exactly. You have to assume that the particular baptism shown is the only one Booker is ever going to attend. If he doesn't go through with it there, he commits to never going through with it.

 

[jacksepticeye]

There is something special in that she was born in one but lived in the other from such an early age which is something other characters have not done. I'll try to find the specific Voxaphone but Rosalind Lutece implied that her powers rest in where she was from (which is what her finger is a result of, where she's from). I certainly accept the plausability of it, but I don't think I'm convinced yet.

Ok now I get ya.
Maybe, but I like the Pinky one because it gives it more meaning and makes her special. Without that theory it's just a case of seeing a baby get maimed and that's not very pleasing is it? This way she's unique and that unique severing of her finger gave her powers and control no one else in the world had. It's also a symbolic reference to her ties being severed with her real dad

 

[Guess Who]

It all comes down to the "constants and variables" thing Elizabeth mentions - it's just never explained what is constant and what's variable, so we can only assume for the plot to work that "Comstock comes as a result of Booker's baptism" is a constant.

 

[Alucrid]

Ok so I literally just finished it. That Rapture reveal had my jaw to the floor for a good five minutes. I have no idea what the fuck just happened. This is just me getting my thoughts down:

Here's what I got: Elizabeth gets taken by the Songbird, you cross the bridge and 70 years have passed. Liz has been tortured and brainwashed into being a Comstock, creating monsters like the Boys of Silence or whatever they're called and... attacking New York? Why New York? And why in 1982? And why does old Lizzie greet you in friendship instead of with anger like in all the audio recordings from Comstock House? If she has that much agency, why attack New York??

You get sent back, you save Liz and kill Comstock, who mentions the finger. You blow up the siphon, making Liz super powered? She takes you to Rapture, drowns the Songbird and you got to the Sea of Doors. In every universe the same thing happens blah blah.

Booker is a real person, he lives his life, goes through Wounded Knee, seeks redemption, gets baptised... has a daughter at some point, who is Liz. Then... has to... give her away? Bookers starts gambling, owes a lot of money, Lutece shows up says give us your daughter and the debt will go away. Comstock needed a child so he had an heir, just happened to choose DeWitt?

Booker hands over his daughter to wipe away his debt, goes mad with guilt, tries to call off the deal, Liz loses a finger, goes into Columbia dimension and grows up to be Liz we know in the game.

Booker goes even more crazy because he remembers having a daughter but she doesn't exist in his world anymore, the Lutece's have a change of heart and use his memory of the phrase "give us the girl, wipe away the debt", to send him against Comstock for their own reasons? Comstock has prepared for him coming (AD being the mark of the false shepard).

I also couldn't quite make out what the Elizabeths said as they drowned me...

Booker was Comstock? That's a whole nother layer of mindfuck. Someone please help me my brain hurts.

Elizabeth says herself that it wasn't the torture or brainwashing, it was time. She gives you that paper because she knows the songbird stops you every time, since she realizes this she wants to help you and the other Elizabeth. He doesn't just happen to choose Booker, he knows he is Booker and that Elizabeth is his flesh and blood, that's why he chooses her.

 

[mickcenary]

Guys, can you explain how Comstock letting Booker kill him birthed Comstock? I feel there's a super easy explanation, but it evades me.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Or there is a Booker that never went to Wounded Knee.

if you can detect the bookers who never went to wounded knee, you can detect the bookers that will never accept the baptism.

edit: what i just said made no sense, but he probably still went to wounded knee because he still has his race track tickets, beers, and the 7th cavalry memorabilia.

 

[rinker]

I disagree. I think that while the whole multiple universes thing could work: having a backbone like Bioshock to show how different this alternate realities can be while mantaining the same core concepts (one man, one city, big daddy like thing, etc) is fucking brilliant and aboslutely works to complement the story.

The rapture bit isn't just a throwaway gag and easter egg moment, it is integral to the story and makes it THAT much bigger. Overtaking the entire narrative of the previous game in the series.

Story-wise the game would have been fantastic on it's own as well, but being part of the Bioshock franchise benefits it inmensly.

It's easy to see how one could think that it was a cash grab to have the same name to drive sales, but it makes complete sense and it doesnt feel tacked on aaaaaaat all. Im willing to bet this was very much a Bioshock game all along.



sure, and I think that was part of the risk. It totally pays off in the end.

So being in the same universe I agree is neat, but why do you think the trip to rapture integral?

 

[José Mourinho]

I think, that we got that stuff in BS1. I'm not sure that digging into the nitty gritty is that essential beyond the couple of Voxophones we got of Fink talking about Rapture.

I mean, sure it be cool to dig into that stuff, but I'm not sure its essential.

Well, for me anyway.

Well they could at least explain why absolutely nobody seems to use them other than those two enemy types.

Also, given that Elizabeth talks about the infinite number of universes where where there's always a city, always a man etc, why id everybody assuming Fink ever peered in to Rapture at all?

Guys, can you explain how Comstock letting Booker kill him birthed Comstock? I feel there's a super easy explanation, but it evades me.

If you're getting that idea from one of those videos, I think it's best to ignore it. Most people seemed to be of the opinion that that line of thinking didn't follow.