Dark Souls
SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
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Dark Souls
So I just beat the game, here's a list of thoughts
- What the fuck was with that Vox Populi chick? You're working for her in one world, then, alright, you jump into a world where you're a martyr for the Vox, and then for no apparent reason, she goes crazy and starts murdering children? She was actually a pretty cool character, and then for whatever reason she's crazy a second later.
-I have a decent grasp of what happened at the end, but because of that the beginning makes no sense. WHY is he going on this journey in the first place? And if it isn't to "wipe away the debt," why is that sign on the lighthouse door.
-That fucking scene where you're first introduced to the mask-wearing guys and the alarm-faces is horrifying. You're trying to fight through this crowd of dudes while elizabeth is just fucking screaming in the background. That entire segment was kinda eh in encounter design and level design, but the fucking atmosphere was off the charts.
-Bioshock one? Rapture? what? I guess that's a part of the multiverse? sure? the room with all the lighthouses? That's cool i guess?
-I just wish they hadn't destroyed liz's character at the end. Who enjoys and can relate to an omniscient god character? especially when you have to sacrifice a really great character to get them? it's just boring storytelling.
-KInda disappointed there was no songbird encounter. Old liz tells you that you tried a bunch but every time you failed, and I feel like that would be an awesome time for a required-fail boss fight. Most of the time these are annoying, but COME ON, it would be a perfect way to frame him trying in multiple lifetimes over and over to kill it and just not at all being able to kill him no matter what he did.
-I didn't understand AT ALL the whole baptized=comstock/not=booker thing when i played, I just thought they meant that metphorically or indirectly he causes comstock to be, not that he literally was him
-sub-bullet: THere's some line as you're ziplining to kill comstock, he says something cryptic that might also reference this. I can't remember the quote right now.
-baptism = evil racism?
- What the fuck was with that Vox Populi chick? You're working for her in one world, then, alright, you jump into a world where you're a martyr for the Vox, and then for no apparent reason, she goes crazy and starts murdering children? She was actually a pretty cool character, and then for whatever reason she's crazy a second later.
-I have a decent grasp of what happened at the end, but because of that the beginning makes no sense. WHY is he going on this journey in the first place? And if it isn't to "wipe away the debt," why is that sign on the lighthouse door.
-That fucking scene where you're first introduced to the mask-wearing guys and the alarm-faces is horrifying. You're trying to fight through this crowd of dudes while elizabeth is just fucking screaming in the background. That entire segment was kinda eh in encounter design and level design, but the fucking atmosphere was off the charts.
-Bioshock one? Rapture? what? I guess that's a part of the multiverse? sure? the room with all the lighthouses? That's cool i guess?
-I just wish they hadn't destroyed liz's character at the end. Who enjoys and can relate to an omniscient god character? especially when you have to sacrifice a really great character to get them? it's just boring storytelling.
-KInda disappointed there was no songbird encounter. Old liz tells you that you tried a bunch but every time you failed, and I feel like that would be an awesome time for a required-fail boss fight. Most of the time these are annoying, but COME ON, it would be a perfect way to frame him trying in multiple lifetimes over and over to kill it and just not at all being able to kill him no matter what he did.
-I didn't understand AT ALL the whole baptized=comstock/not=booker thing when i played, I just thought they meant that metphorically or indirectly he causes comstock to be, not that he literally was him
-sub-bullet: THere's some line as you're ziplining to kill comstock, he says something cryptic that might also reference this. I can't remember the quote right now.
-baptism = evil racism?
I also have a hunch the voice over quote if "Booker are you afraid of God? No I'm afraid of you" at the beginning was meant to be a way of Ken Levine to say how games like to present main themes in the beginning of there narrative but quickly regress those main themes to something that becomes pointless/irrelevant.
Just my 2 cents.
Mushroomer25
Member
My mind is spinning reading through some of this thread. I'll give my general end-game thoughts.
1. Last battle was horseshit. Unlike BioShock 1 where the final boss was a complete pushover, this was just an aggrivating, "defend X for Y ammount of time" mission. After three attempts I put the game into Medium & kept on going.
2. While I understand why they did it, I kind of wish they left multiplayer in. Or at least, something that would allow me to toy around more with the combat systems. Maybe a horde-type mode. I want to try playing with all the different clothing options, but just replaying the base game doesn't interest me too much. Hopefully the DLC is good.
3. So... If I understand this correctly, every variation on the universes of BioShock is rooted in Booker's decision with the baptism. Is there a definitive theory yet on just how this story lines up with BioShock?
4. The musical cues were brilliant. I picked up on the "Girls just want to have fun" variation in the boardwalk, and the reveal in the Market district was just perfect. Such a cool detail.
5. I really hope this sort of detail-intensive storytelling becomes more common in games. It's such a better method of conveying a story, instead of relying on prerendered cutscenes. Walking through the boardwalk gave me a better sense of Columbia than an entire textbook on its' history.
1. Last battle was horseshit. Unlike BioShock 1 where the final boss was a complete pushover, this was just an aggrivating, "defend X for Y ammount of time" mission. After three attempts I put the game into Medium & kept on going.
2. While I understand why they did it, I kind of wish they left multiplayer in. Or at least, something that would allow me to toy around more with the combat systems. Maybe a horde-type mode. I want to try playing with all the different clothing options, but just replaying the base game doesn't interest me too much. Hopefully the DLC is good.
3. So... If I understand this correctly, every variation on the universes of BioShock is rooted in Booker's decision with the baptism. Is there a definitive theory yet on just how this story lines up with BioShock?
4. The musical cues were brilliant. I picked up on the "Girls just want to have fun" variation in the boardwalk, and the reveal in the Market district was just perfect. Such a cool detail.
5. I really hope this sort of detail-intensive storytelling becomes more common in games. It's such a better method of conveying a story, instead of relying on prerendered cutscenes. Walking through the boardwalk gave me a better sense of Columbia than an entire textbook on its' history.
Well damn, you guys weren't kidding about the ending! The moment we teleported to Rapture my jaw dropped, well played Irrational! I honestly didn't make the Comstock/Booker connection at first because I was so hell bent on him being Songbird, but it still made for a fantastic twist.
My question is how did Comstock know that Booker would have a daughter? I mean, he was obviously aware that DeWitt was him from a different timeline, but how did it even get to that point in the first place?
EDIT: The dead guy at the beginning with the cover of his head was supposed to be Booker right?
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I think this was more commentary on the concept of a revolutionary and how the situation isn't always black and white (no pun intended). Where revolution and triumph from the underdog =/= peace. Like the French Revolution. Yes, there is a justifiable spark that set events in motion, but just because they're revolutionaries fighting for an idea of justice does not mean they're sinless. People are still people, and capable of committing all kinds of brutality and atrocity no matter what side they're on.
For what it's worth he could still technically be Song Bird. At least I personally believe so.
Thanks to the Luttece twins.
Not every universe has a Booker, but there is always a man and always a lighthouse.
Mushroomer25
Member
And a town? And a Ryan/Comstock type leader? How deep do the similarities go?
I guess I can understand how you can get that from that, I just feel like it was too quick and sudden to really give off any message to me other than "uhhh, we kinda just want to close off this plot thread, sorry."
XANDER CAGE
Member
Is this a voxophone I can find?
So it always comes back to them.
Is this true? When is that explained? I must have missed that part.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I agree with RPS's review which complained that while it's good they showed the ugly side of the Vox Populi, when they have far more of a moral-justification to their side of the argument it comes across as a bit cheap when the game immediately presents them as pallete swaps of the regular Columbian soldiers fully prepared to kill whoever for shits and giggles.
Honestly it feels like something inbetween Finkton and Emporia (or whatever the next 'level' was) got cut, at least storyline-wise. Still can't complain too much, especially given how much weaker other similar elements in Bioshock games have come across beforehand. Realistically I find it far-fetched even in the game's logic nobody caught onto who Atlas was in Bioshock 1 and Sofia Lamb is shoehorned as fuck as Bio2's main villain (at least in the sense of being Ryan's equal but with opposite ideologies).
There is always a CARNIVAL OF SAAAAAAAAAAAVINGS
Nah that part is pure speculation.
Did the Lettuce twins kill him?
Is it all just Booker's mind envisioning a narrative to fill in the gaps after he jumped to a different timeline?
yup, for people who aren't in the loop..a poster made an incredible chart and came with this conclusion:
You have to think about it. It's not in a voxophone. The Lutece twins wanted Booker to go forward and get Elizabeth. Every time Booker gets killed, they send a new one forward to finish the task the last one didn't. In this case, the fact that there is a guy who is stabbed with a note by the Lutece twins on him sort of tell you what happened.
Mushroomer25
Member
So, where do they go after this? Is BioShock now The Legend of Zelda, where every game is unique in sotry, but held together by constants of gameplay & a franchise-wide "prophesy"? Or did your actions end the existence of a Comstock character in all universes?
It's basically a theoretcal analysis, but it fits with the narrative very well. An due to there being some much foreshadowing and hints left all throughout the narrative in regards to the end, than there's no doubt this could be quite true.
here's the original post btw with the chart:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51879795&postcount=2423
Robbert convinced lady Lettuce that they needed to fix what they set in motion.
All of this is detailed in various Voxphones.
Comstock had Fink try to kill them as well, which is why they are stuck in between dimensions. That could be more motivation.
To them it's nothing more a fucked up game. They are like the Cheshire cat, or the mad hatter in Alice in Wonderland.
There bat shit insane and like to see people play there games. These 2 characters are incredibly fucked up when you realize the context in a second playthrough.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
LUTECES, get it right.
Ciastek3214
Junior Member
Multiverses, in some of them Rosalind is a man named Robert. She met him through the sciency-magicky boogaloo.
I agree actually hat they have narrative motivation. But there's no denying that to them it's nothing but pure joy and is like a scientific game to them.
It could definitley play The Legend of Zelda route.
Have a lighthouse, a city, and a man, and you have your next bioshock game. The setting and the games ideology is what will make it unique.
That or Ken Levine retires from the industry. He pretty much hinted as much in a few interviews that you probably won't see anything new from him in a long while, if at all.
Mushroomer25
Member
Where was the treasure for the first codebook? I remember the clue being something like "Tip hat to the Vox", or something like that, but I didn't see anything immediately unlock in that room (like it does with the other codebooks).
at the restroom besides the one with the code. the activation is literally a hat
The toiletroom next door has a hat on a coatrack which opens a pathway to the secret room.
TastyBread
Member
im lost as to what the loop is, is it:
after you save Elizabeth she takes u to the baptism and you get baptized and then go down the road to becoming, and that's how you know about everything Booker is going to do when he comes after Elizabeth? (although i thought comstock knows exactly what you're going to do due to looking through tears into other universes)
Future Elizabeth tells you that the songbird will always stop you, so she gives you the musical note card, is that the loop? :s
after you save Elizabeth she takes u to the baptism and you get baptized and then go down the road to becoming, and that's how you know about everything Booker is going to do when he comes after Elizabeth? (although i thought comstock knows exactly what you're going to do due to looking through tears into other universes)
Future Elizabeth tells you that the songbird will always stop you, so she gives you the musical note card, is that the loop? :s
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
Lettuce, forever.
moniker
Member
It was a long time since I payed Bioshock, but I remember something about Andrew Ryan locking down the bathyspheres so only people with his, or similar (sibling, offspring etc.), genetic code could use them. So depending on when the bathysphere is used in the ending of Infinite, I guess there's a possibility that DeWitt is actually another version of Ryan? Has this been discussed?
XBOX 1 era spoilers
Knights of the Old Republic
Just beat the game for the first time. Amazing.
Well after a good nights rest and a bit of breakfast thinking (second only to toilet thinking) the whole cyclical nature make a whole lot of sense like this especially the after credits scene.
What if Elizabeth drowning Booker/Combstock was what always happened? What if every time she guided Booker through the ending sequence this is exactly how it played out. Killing your own parent has frequency been a paradox in time travel storytelling and all the Elizabeth's blinking out of existence aren't her disappearing but the scenario, time itself resetting. Between the whole fabric of existence tearing itself appear and time looping these are what is theroised as what might be the possibilities. Apply this to the after credits scene and you realise that nothing has changed, Elizabeth didn't break the cycle because this is what she always did and were all right back at square one.
Makes perfect sense for the infinite theme. No matter how many times you play the game, from start to finishing it always starts and ends the same. Look at it another way when Booker dies (except jumping off Colombia, yeah I did it a few times) you are either 'awoken' by Elizabeth or you exit through the door where it all starts.
DLC fixing this should be called BioShock: Groundhog Day.
What if Elizabeth drowning Booker/Combstock was what always happened? What if every time she guided Booker through the ending sequence this is exactly how it played out. Killing your own parent has frequency been a paradox in time travel storytelling and all the Elizabeth's blinking out of existence aren't her disappearing but the scenario, time itself resetting. Between the whole fabric of existence tearing itself appear and time looping these are what is theroised as what might be the possibilities. Apply this to the after credits scene and you realise that nothing has changed, Elizabeth didn't break the cycle because this is what she always did and were all right back at square one.
Makes perfect sense for the infinite theme. No matter how many times you play the game, from start to finishing it always starts and ends the same. Look at it another way when Booker dies (except jumping off Colombia, yeah I did it a few times) you are either 'awoken' by Elizabeth or you exit through the door where it all starts.
DLC fixing this should be called BioShock: Groundhog Day.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
It has. Personally I think that theory is a bit too strict. The "many BioShocks" multiverse is more supposed to embody ideologies and themes than strictly connect them. There's always a man, and there's always a city. There's always a lighthouse. There seems to be always an uprising. There's always protectors, and there's always the enslaved. The way this is imagined can be quite different. With Infinite it's just Elizabeth and the Songbird. In Rapture it's many Little Sisters and their Big Daddies. In Infinite a man elevates himself to be worshiped as a god. In BioShock it's a man who believes he can create a Utopia. A city in the clouds. A city under the sea. The philosophy is the same, but the execution changes.
I also think this is a bit of a rough point for the BioShock franchise. Infinite is poignant in its message and marvelously works as a sequel/successor to BioShock's universe without being an a-typical direct sequel. Given the themes at play, I think making another "BioShock" under the same guise as the norm would fail to conjure the same impact as Shock/Infinite. You'd need to take it to a really new place and I don't know what that would be.
Horse Detective
Why the long case?
I am still shocked at how perfectly placed "Girls just want to have fun" is. The beach scene is awesome.
HoodWinked
Member
bioshock is the jrpg of shooters.
amnesia and multi dimensional storylines. even uses a ridiculous sequel numbering system like final fantasy.
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Bioshock ∞
amnesia and multi dimensional storylines. even uses a ridiculous sequel numbering system like final fantasy.
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Bioshock ∞
Incendiary
Banned
Oi. Beat it, probably going to sleep soon and get my thoughts together, but read some of the thread already. This has probably already been done before, but for my own sanity and understanding I'm going to put together what I assume is the timeline.
-Booker fights at the Battle of Wounded Knee. Does horrific stuff.
-Booker goes to get baptized: Timelines diverge -> Either he is baptized and becomes Comstock, or runs away and stays Booker.
-Comstock founds Columbia, marries Lady Comstock.
-Booker marries Lady DeWitt, has Anna, Lady DeWitt dies in childbirth.
-Booker runs up a gambling debt.
-Comstock and the Luteces experiment with tears, Comstock goes sterile but wants a child.
-Letuces get Anna from Booker to "wipe away the debt" and give her to Comstock.
-Booker regrets his decision, goes after her to get her back, Anna gets her pinky torn off in struggle.
-Comstock raises Anna as Elizabeth, realizing she has powers over the tear (possibly due to her being forced across universes?).
-Luteces create the siphon, which drains Elizabeth's power and keeps her under control, while allowing Comstock to see all the universes and be the "prophet."
-Booker slowly goes nuts after losing Anna.
-Comstock slowly goes nuts due to Elizabeth's power.
-Comstock kills the Luteces while they are working the siphon/tear machine, trapping them in-between worlds.
-Comstock kills Lady Comstock (?) because she's ready to expose him/angry at him for loving Elizabeth more than her? (not sure if he killed her or Daisy killed her, to be honest)
-Luteces realize they've created something bad, and the only way to fix it is to eliminate introducing Elizabeth in the first place.
-Luteces grab Booker from shortly after giving Anna away, bring him to a later point in the Comstock timeline in an effort to get him to "rescue" Elizabeth.
-Booker's attempts to foil Comstock repeat ad nauseum with him failing because Songbird stops him each time.
-That is, until our playthrough in which he get to Old Elizabeth for the first time, and Songbird destroys the siphon.
-Booker goes back to the baptism and drowns himself, ending the infinite cycle.
There are a few things that are hazy, such as how the Luteces created tears in the first place before they had Elizabeth. Also was expecting Booker to be Songbird, not Comstock, so that begs the question of what exactly is Songbird?
Definitely want to replay and pay more attention to the Luteces, along with listening to Comstock's voxophones and realizing that's actually Booker talking.
-Booker fights at the Battle of Wounded Knee. Does horrific stuff.
-Booker goes to get baptized: Timelines diverge -> Either he is baptized and becomes Comstock, or runs away and stays Booker.
-Comstock founds Columbia, marries Lady Comstock.
-Booker marries Lady DeWitt, has Anna, Lady DeWitt dies in childbirth.
-Booker runs up a gambling debt.
-Comstock and the Luteces experiment with tears, Comstock goes sterile but wants a child.
-Letuces get Anna from Booker to "wipe away the debt" and give her to Comstock.
-Booker regrets his decision, goes after her to get her back, Anna gets her pinky torn off in struggle.
-Comstock raises Anna as Elizabeth, realizing she has powers over the tear (possibly due to her being forced across universes?).
-Luteces create the siphon, which drains Elizabeth's power and keeps her under control, while allowing Comstock to see all the universes and be the "prophet."
-Booker slowly goes nuts after losing Anna.
-Comstock slowly goes nuts due to Elizabeth's power.
-Comstock kills the Luteces while they are working the siphon/tear machine, trapping them in-between worlds.
-Comstock kills Lady Comstock (?) because she's ready to expose him/angry at him for loving Elizabeth more than her? (not sure if he killed her or Daisy killed her, to be honest)
-Luteces realize they've created something bad, and the only way to fix it is to eliminate introducing Elizabeth in the first place.
-Luteces grab Booker from shortly after giving Anna away, bring him to a later point in the Comstock timeline in an effort to get him to "rescue" Elizabeth.
-Booker's attempts to foil Comstock repeat ad nauseum with him failing because Songbird stops him each time.
-That is, until our playthrough in which he get to Old Elizabeth for the first time, and Songbird destroys the siphon.
-Booker goes back to the baptism and drowns himself, ending the infinite cycle.
There are a few things that are hazy, such as how the Luteces created tears in the first place before they had Elizabeth. Also was expecting Booker to be Songbird, not Comstock, so that begs the question of what exactly is Songbird?
Definitely want to replay and pay more attention to the Luteces, along with listening to Comstock's voxophones and realizing that's actually Booker talking.
Finally finished the game. The part where they first introduce the element of time travel (encountering the "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" rendition on the beach, and then hearing "Fortunate Son" through the tear), really got me interested. Then when I heard the Vox lady singing Fortunate Son in gospel later on, my jaw dropped. So many excellent moments in this game - it truly was a worthy successor to the original Bioshock. When Elizabeth sings the "will the circle be broken?" song, I started to get a handle on what was going on, but the ending really put things into place.
I guess after the credits finished, the message was that there actually is a happy ending? The Booker who was killed by all the Elizabeths was the same Booker who went on to become all the Comstocks, creating the crazy loop. In the after-credit section, we see a timeline where Anna stays under Booker's protection (and the mother possibly doesn't die in childbirth as well, since he's asking another person if Anna's still in her crib). So when Booker is killed by Anna before becoming Comstock and fucking with the entire space time continuum, that entire fork of time travel and tears is closed shut, with only the Booker who has Anna and raises her remaining.
It's interesting but also highlights what I hate so much about time-travel storytelling - it's too god damn confusing.
More interested in the implications of human struggle, like what happens with Daisy Fitzroy and the Vox Populi through the different worlds.
Anyway, the game was fantastic. Really lovely game. I do wish there was a little bit more to do with the world - I felt like Dishonored set the bar most recently for environmental challenges and creative gameplay, and that Bioshock Infinite was like a bigger, better version of Bioshock could be slightly disappointing. That said, running around creating a shield, then Bronco'ing and then Ramming, then spamming fireballs and shocks... opening rifts to create water puddles to electrocute enemies, etc. was fuckin' awesome.
Also, is Andrew Ryan another Booker DeWitt?
I guess after the credits finished, the message was that there actually is a happy ending? The Booker who was killed by all the Elizabeths was the same Booker who went on to become all the Comstocks, creating the crazy loop. In the after-credit section, we see a timeline where Anna stays under Booker's protection (and the mother possibly doesn't die in childbirth as well, since he's asking another person if Anna's still in her crib). So when Booker is killed by Anna before becoming Comstock and fucking with the entire space time continuum, that entire fork of time travel and tears is closed shut, with only the Booker who has Anna and raises her remaining.
It's interesting but also highlights what I hate so much about time-travel storytelling - it's too god damn confusing.
Anyway, the game was fantastic. Really lovely game. I do wish there was a little bit more to do with the world - I felt like Dishonored set the bar most recently for environmental challenges and creative gameplay, and that Bioshock Infinite was like a bigger, better version of Bioshock could be slightly disappointing. That said, running around creating a shield, then Bronco'ing and then Ramming, then spamming fireballs and shocks... opening rifts to create water puddles to electrocute enemies, etc. was fuckin' awesome.
Also, is Andrew Ryan another Booker DeWitt?
I don't know that this is necessarily true; at least, based on these voxophones, for the male Lutece.
What's Done Is Done
September the 3rd, 1909
Location: The Hand of the Prophet
Our contraption shows us the girl is the flame that shall ignite the world. My brother says we must undo what we have done. But time is more an ocean than a river. Why try to bring in a tide that will only again go out?
An Ultimatum
October the 18th, 1909
Location: Comstock House Roof
My brother has presented me with an ultimatum...If we do not send the girl back from where we brought her, he and I must part. Where he sees an empty page, I see King Lear. But he is my brother, so I shall play my part, knowing it shall all end in tears.
A Theory On Our "Death"
November the 1st, 1909
Location: Market District
Comstock has sabotaged our contraption. Yet, we are not dead. A theory: we are scattered amongst the possibility space. But my brother and I are together, and so, I am content. He is not. The business with the girl lies unresolved. But perhaps there is one who can finish it in our stead.
It's to show that while she may have had good intentions in sparking the revolution, she took her ideals too far and lost her humanity for the cause. The movement she created became too big a weight for her and she couldn't steer it anymore and allowed it to turn her into a monster. Like many revolutions over time in history, they're started with freedom in mind but when you fight violence with violence, it will always turn ugly.
Patrick Bateman
Member
HoodWinked
Member
lots of people travel through the tears and dont have powers, the more likely reason is because she exists in two dimensions simultaneously her finger in one, the rest of her in another. maybe this connection between dimensions eventually evolved stronger and stronger due to her early age and the experimentation they did to her. booker for example jumped dimensions and doesnt have any powers.
that's correct, but in Bioshock 2, several people, such as Mark Meltzer and Sammy Fletcher used bathyspheres to get around Rapture, which means that either the lock has been lifted on bathyspheres, or Ryan really got around.
on the other hand, i don't know if Ken Levine even considers Bioshock 2 as canon.
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