I remember reading that review. I vomited a little.
GDC: Halo 4 Post Mortem starts right now.
- Thread starter dragonelite
- Start date
I remember reading that review. I vomited a little.
Welcome to the last 5 months of my life.
SalientOne
Internet Batman
Hey Retro - first of all, I'm sorry that you aren't enjoying the MP experience in H4. I just wanted you to know that the picture you posted here is a shot of my son trying to climb a tree. It was tweeted a year ago when we were camping. It wasn't an attempt at antagonizing you or anyone else in the Halo community. I was laughing at my son's inability to move as he was paralyzed by fear. I thought that it was a pretty funny moment worth sharing.
Anyway, carry on.
Anyway, carry on.
A bit over-dramatic, perhaps, but after a post mortem packed with apologies for all the things they fucked up by trying to change the formula, it seems a little short-sighted to mock those fans as being afraid of change.
We're not afraid of change as a concept in general, we're afraid of the changes 343 is hellbent on making again.
And now I feel like an ass, now that I see the time stamp on the tweet. In the context it was posted here, it appeared to be a response to the reaction from this evening's event and a bit of stock photography.
I'll edit my post since it was in response to a comment that never actually happened. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
This please.
When you're in the kind of position where you're in charge of making decisions on a product where you have an audience of millions, people are going to interpret every last thing you say as some kind of comment on that product. If it's merely coincidental that your statement aligned chronologically with a period when fear over exposure to unwanted changes in said product began to surface, then so be it.
I'm not blaming you - I aspire to one day be in a position with that kind of influence over a game's development, and if I reach that point, it'll probably happen to me too.
But regardless of what it meant to you, it's on public display. Same with the wheelchair deal. The most dedicated of fans are reacting to everything, everything in the hopes that it'll send a message.
SalientOne
Internet Batman
No worries, I totally understand the assumption in context. Thanks for the civil response.
...and now my plane is about to land.
Nah man, the tweet Plywood posted a shot of is from long before this happened, and has no relevance to the discussion at hand. I basically saw it and reacted to it completely out of context. It's a personal tweet that has nothing to do with Halo at all and shouldn't even be in the same orbit as being 'interpreted as a comment on that product'. In my defense, we've had a lot of little PR implosions lately where devs ended up pissing a lot of people off with their flippant responses and dishonest comments. Doesn't justify it, but it's part of the atmosphere that is simultaneously the best and worst thing about GAF; the passion.
Retro fucked up. Retro apologized. There's plenty of things to be upset about as far as the direction the Halo series has gone and where it may be going, but this is completely irrelevant to that conversation.
You had an electronic device on during the flight? You're going to get everyone killed!
See? THIS is the kind of stuff people should be upset about. 343, wreckin' planes and stuff.
That tweet happened approximately 12 hours after the gameinformer scans were posted online that revealed Halo 4's drastic, and ultimately self-condemning changes. As in, immediately after Halo fans got upset at what they saw of Halo 4 multiplayer.
The night of April 6th:
April 7th, 10:46 AM:
I'll choose to remain skeptical.
I think the maps play a role in that. Too many big shitty maps.
Past Halo mp was at its best with tight maps with barely any long lines of sight.
Haven and Adrift are pretty much the only good maps in the whole thing.
link1201
Member
I am not sure if this has been discussed or not but the main reason I played Spartan Ops solo was because it was unplayable in Co-op mode for me, it was a choice I was forced into. I would have rather played most episodes Co-op. I would imagine I am not the only one. Hopefully they continue to support Co-op but make it work as intended not redo the experience based off of data that doesn't really represent the issue with people not playing co-op.
To add to what Grizz said, here is when it first popped up on GAF. The 30+ pages before that post is HaloGAF reacting to the leaked multiplayer info.
I'll take you guys' word for it since my memory is shit even on my best days. I mean, I'm in that discussion, but I'll be damned if I can remember it.
Even so, that image was not posted in the context I thought it was, so my comments were uncalled for. If you guys want to see a picture of his son and the comment as being aimed at the response to Halo 4 news (even though he said they weren't), that's different from me jumping in his shit for thinking he was mocking us outright after the post mortem.
SpartanN92
Banned
That is 100% false. Halo 3 and CoD 4 frequently bounced back and forth between top XBL game. In fact H3 was the top game until MW2 came out. Reach was almost always the #2 game on XBL Second only to the most recent CoD game at the time and Minecraft.
Never did CoD 4 have a higher population than Reach.
Halo 4 is the first Halo game to have disappointing population numbers this soon after launch.
SpartanN92
Banned
How to fix Halo multiplayer:
Get rid of armor abilities and load outs.
More 4v4 maps.
Basically re-skin Halo 3.
Get rid of armor abilities and load outs.
More 4v4 maps.
Basically re-skin Halo 3.
My thoughts:
- The part where he talks about Didact's motivations not being clear and describes something in simple terms that has nothing to do with motivations made me shake my head.
- BUT, I'm really happy they acknowledged putting story in the terminals is fucking stupid. Nuke the terminals from orbit.
- Nuke the terminals from orbit. Just putting this again here so it's emphasized. You go through all the trouble to make a cinematic story and experience and you put something there that you have to exit the gameplay and story to be informed on? Bad idea. Terrible idea. Horrible idea. Nuke terminals from orbit. Stop putting supplementary story in if you can't deliver it through gameplay, it just hurts your game, whether it's in a menu or on Waypoint.
- But really, without the terminals, I think he holds up kind-of decently if the information delivered was just delivered in a better and more spaced out manner. Again, I think 343 did a fantastic job creating the mystery that people yearn for, but the needle may've been a bit too far into mystery rather than informative that made people frustrated that wanted to know more.
- I haven't watched the Promethean design panel, but it's pretty clear that the struggles with the design of the Prometheans during development showed through in the final product.
- Historically Halo has had a steep learning curve that turned off players? WAT? You mean the same game that literally BLEW UP the online multiplayer experience to the masses on consoles and showed as a pioneer that millions would love the idea?
- Why would they find SpOps being played mostly solo a surprise? Newsflash: most people still play games alone, especially if you don't TELL THEM its a co-op experience primarily. Which you of course can't do, because it's just a turn off to the player and why else would you include solo functionality.
- "Balanced as a co-op experience." Mistake. Big one. I hope the folks at 343 at least know Bungie balanced all of their experiences with both solo AND co-op play in mind, and Halo 4 was the first game not to do so. I hope they're also not taking this lightly, because that's a massive fuck up alongside guns disappearing which changes the Halo 4 campaign experience so dramatically that it's not an exaggeration at all. You should have done this in the first place.
- Good question by the man who asked about QTEs. Not a proper answer though. I don't think they added any interactivity or any sort of greater payoff than just watching a cutscene TBH. I kinda prefer cutscenes because they preserve the tension and have you just viewing instead of actively thinking and trying to make sure you're doing the right thing. That's my perspective on QTEs in general though.
- What makes me sad is that even though they acknowledged fans and Bungie decided, for good reasons, for the even playing field that made Halo Halo, they still believe strongly in it.. this ethos is what has led to Halo 4's multiplayer being as deviant and critiqued as it is, and for good reason, and like many fans on GAF especially have feared, it's likely it won't be backpedaled on
- DAMN THE ROOM WAS EMPTY
From the takeaways:
- I love that they understand making the narrative inclusive to the gameplay experience is important. This was a big issue in Halo 4 and it's kind-of comforting that this is being taken into account going forward.
- Familiarity vs. Reinvention is a balance I think they very much achieved, especially with regards to the mission sandbox and for at least the first half of the game, the distribution of Covenant vs. Forerunner in the game. I think the Covenant overstayed their welcome a slight tad.
Overall, loved the talk. Loving all these GDC talks really. I'm a Halo 4 apologist but it's still difficult being a Halo fan right now with the transition that's happening, but I still have hope in the future because 343 is showing quick signs of adaptation.
- The part where he talks about Didact's motivations not being clear and describes something in simple terms that has nothing to do with motivations made me shake my head.
- BUT, I'm really happy they acknowledged putting story in the terminals is fucking stupid. Nuke the terminals from orbit.
- Nuke the terminals from orbit. Just putting this again here so it's emphasized. You go through all the trouble to make a cinematic story and experience and you put something there that you have to exit the gameplay and story to be informed on? Bad idea. Terrible idea. Horrible idea. Nuke terminals from orbit. Stop putting supplementary story in if you can't deliver it through gameplay, it just hurts your game, whether it's in a menu or on Waypoint.
- But really, without the terminals, I think he holds up kind-of decently if the information delivered was just delivered in a better and more spaced out manner. Again, I think 343 did a fantastic job creating the mystery that people yearn for, but the needle may've been a bit too far into mystery rather than informative that made people frustrated that wanted to know more.
- I haven't watched the Promethean design panel, but it's pretty clear that the struggles with the design of the Prometheans during development showed through in the final product.
- Historically Halo has had a steep learning curve that turned off players? WAT? You mean the same game that literally BLEW UP the online multiplayer experience to the masses on consoles and showed as a pioneer that millions would love the idea?
- Why would they find SpOps being played mostly solo a surprise? Newsflash: most people still play games alone, especially if you don't TELL THEM its a co-op experience primarily. Which you of course can't do, because it's just a turn off to the player and why else would you include solo functionality.
- "Balanced as a co-op experience." Mistake. Big one. I hope the folks at 343 at least know Bungie balanced all of their experiences with both solo AND co-op play in mind, and Halo 4 was the first game not to do so. I hope they're also not taking this lightly, because that's a massive fuck up alongside guns disappearing which changes the Halo 4 campaign experience so dramatically that it's not an exaggeration at all. You should have done this in the first place.
- Good question by the man who asked about QTEs. Not a proper answer though. I don't think they added any interactivity or any sort of greater payoff than just watching a cutscene TBH. I kinda prefer cutscenes because they preserve the tension and have you just viewing instead of actively thinking and trying to make sure you're doing the right thing. That's my perspective on QTEs in general though.
- What makes me sad is that even though they acknowledged fans and Bungie decided, for good reasons, for the even playing field that made Halo Halo, they still believe strongly in it.. this ethos is what has led to Halo 4's multiplayer being as deviant and critiqued as it is, and for good reason, and like many fans on GAF especially have feared, it's likely it won't be backpedaled on
- DAMN THE ROOM WAS EMPTY
From the takeaways:
- I love that they understand making the narrative inclusive to the gameplay experience is important. This was a big issue in Halo 4 and it's kind-of comforting that this is being taken into account going forward.
- Familiarity vs. Reinvention is a balance I think they very much achieved, especially with regards to the mission sandbox and for at least the first half of the game, the distribution of Covenant vs. Forerunner in the game. I think the Covenant overstayed their welcome a slight tad.
Overall, loved the talk. Loving all these GDC talks really. I'm a Halo 4 apologist but it's still difficult being a Halo fan right now with the transition that's happening, but I still have hope in the future because 343 is showing quick signs of adaptation.
SpartanN92
Banned
QuartertoThree.com said that. It was gross. That site gave H4 a 1/5. H4 certainly isn't the best Halo game but it is far more than a 1/5. They also gave uncharted 3 a 2/5 and Bioshock Infinite a 3/5.
Terrible site.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Considering Halo 4 is, in my view, the strongest Halo campaign in the franchise, I think 343 should continue doing their thing. They have earned the right to be the developer for the Halo franchise.
I guess people are pissed about the MP? I wouldn't know anything about that. I've never thought Halo's MP was as good as a lot of people thought it was, hence why none of the MP related stuff that everyone is flipping out about even registers as a blip on my radar. I can't wait for Halo 5 and Halo 6, and whatever else 343 may produce in the Halo universe.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
If they want to insist on keeping the lore stuff and more detailed character motivations out of the story as seen through cutscenes and set pieces they should at least take a leaf out of Metroid Prime's (or even ODST's) book and integrate the terminals/supplementary data into the game. Books and motion comics are nice and all but unless it's in the game proper the world-building shouldn't rely on it.
The forerunners in Halo 4 were uninspired in general. Only three enemies and no vehicles? At times I felt the flood would have been more fun to fight.
Not even close.
Twilight Gap
Member
ArchedThunder
Banned
I guess you like corridor shooters with brain dead AI and a lot of samey weapons.
soulassssns
Banned
soulassssns
Banned
Ewww Halo 3? No thanks.
My personal theory is the CoD players decided that if they are going to play a game aimed at them, they will just go play CoD.
And the core Halo fans were completely turned off by the changes. Getting dropped by MLG didn't help either.
So the audience the game was designed for left, the audience that originally made the series popular left, and the game wasn't even designed for the competitive scene.
One of the reasons that CoD is so popular is it has these crutches that make the game easier. ADS makes it much easier to aim, low TTK reduces the need to aim accurately, kill streaks allows everyone to get kills.
Fundamentally, Halo is a lot more of a traditional shooter. Positioning, aim, skill, and map control (not as much in 4) are much more important.
Your typical CoD player is going to think these concepts are too difficult and go back to what they know.
I switched to PC after 3/ODST, but these are my observations.
If the Halo 3 OC rumors come true, I will have a heart attack.
ExigentContact
Member
The AI was pretty terrible, especially for the Prometheans (the Covenant were serviceable, but still a downgrade in lethality from Reach) and on higher difficulties the AI wavered between omniscient and utterly braindead (particularly for the Knights). Weapons disappeared way too quickly to capitalize on the two-weapon versus weapons-in-the-sandbox paradigm in Halo 4, artificially increasing difficulty and limiting strategy. The campaign more or less funneled you through tubes and setpiece moments and the few areas that had any open combat were far narrower than previous games in the franchise.
Case in point: The Ark's Scarab battle versus the tank area that closed off the Mammoth mission. It was a tiny space in comparison to the multi-tiered Halo 3 area, and lacked any of the breadth or combat variety. The difficulty in hijacking Wraiths also crippled this particular area's sandbox potential, since Scorpions and Wraiths are pretty much the only vehicles worth a damn in that fight.
I mean, I could dissect the rest of the campaign like this.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Yeah, basing the multiplayer on something that's actually fun, balanced, not full of completely random fiesta-ish gameplay, incorporates even a semblance of weapon and map control, and has updated playlists. Who would want that?
They should definitely go further down the Halo 4 path. Maybe make sprint faster, everyone gets jetpack/sprint default, and random loadout weapons when spawning.
Rickenslacker
Banned
I gave it a watch and it was a good panel all around but I was also irked by the mention of feeling like they needed to make Halo more accessible. I mean, are we thinking about the same game series here? Halo? The one that made mechanics and a control scheme simple enough to excel on a controller, with consistently high placements on XBL population charts since 2? It doesn't come off as needing to make the game more accessible, it comes off as wanting a grab at the game beating them, COD. The things added to Reach and the expanding of those concepts in 4 have only served to make a mess of things. The underestimation of the audience under the guise of accessibility has become increasingly grating.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
People can cite meaningless metacritic scores all they like. There's only one critic's review that matters to me, my own.
Halo 4 is the best campaign the franchise has seen with the best character development of the franchise. The pacing is the best the franchise has seen. The overall balance of weapons are the best and most legitimately different feeling the franchise has seen. I'm a huge fan of the character Master Chief, so I'm invested in seeing him look like nothing short of a legendary hero that lives up to and exceeds his hype. This game gave me that and then some. Cortana, one of the most pivotally important characters in the universe was given a platform in which she could shine (and did) in ways that truly do her character justice. The level of skill with which the relationship between Master Chief and Cortana was handled in that game is the epitome of excellence.
There are no words to describe how well 343 portrayed the Master Chief's emotions in this game. Never has a person encased in so much armor ever been so expressive and easy to read and understand what he was feeling. I could go and on, but if nothing else, I know when it comes to a great singleplayer campaign, 343i gets it. I wanted Halo to be more like the books, and 343i gave me that and then some. They didn't tease about what they would do with the Chief and Cortana's character and then back off or play with kids gloves. They went for it and they fucking nailed it. Metacritic my ass. Pfft. Some of my favorite damn games of this gen got lower than some of the most overhyped games of this generation.
Nice try. Troll bait didn't work.
Halo 4 is the best campaign the franchise has seen with the best character development of the franchise. The pacing is the best the franchise has seen. The overall balance of weapons are the best and most legitimately different feeling the franchise has seen. I'm a huge fan of the character Master Chief, so I'm invested in seeing him look like nothing short of a legendary hero that lives up to and exceeds his hype. This game gave me that and then some. Cortana, one of the most pivotally important characters in the universe was given a platform in which she could shine (and did) in ways that truly do her character justice. The level of skill with which the relationship between Master Chief and Cortana was handled in that game is the epitome of excellence.
There are no words to describe how well 343 portrayed the Master Chief's emotions in this game. Never has a person encased in so much armor ever been so expressive and easy to read and understand what he was feeling. I could go and on, but if nothing else, I know when it comes to a great singleplayer campaign, 343i gets it. I wanted Halo to be more like the books, and 343i gave me that and then some. They didn't tease about what they would do with the Chief and Cortana's character and then back off or play with kids gloves. They went for it and they fucking nailed it. Metacritic my ass. Pfft. Some of my favorite damn games of this gen got lower than some of the most overhyped games of this generation.
Nice try. Troll bait didn't work.
He posted on this very page. SalientOne.
EDIT: Oh, you're asking something else. I doubt he would do that.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Yeah, I'm a troll for pointing out that the game is an uninspired walk forward with dimwit AI. Yeah, okay.
Word of advice, no one will ever take your opinion seriously if you can't be objective.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I'm not objective because I'm not falling in line with group think? I make up my own mind about games that I play. Everything I said is exactly what I believe about Halo 4. Someone tossing out some metacritic number isn't going to sway or caution me against expressing my opinion. What do I need to be objective about regarding a game I thought was fantastic? If you can't say you thought a game was a fantastic experience on a gaming forum, where else can you say it? Surely your idea of me being objective isn't my somehow not telling my honest to god opinion of Halo 4's campaign, right?
I'm not an MP Halo player. Never have been, never will be. I don't think it's quite as good as people have thought it was for all these years. If it wasn't for the SP, I would never buy Halo.
King Beyond the wall
Member
So was there any indication during the panel that they were going to take halo back to its roots at all? Or was it mostly about moving ever closer to the CoD crowd?
Been a HUGE fan of Halo literally when I bought it with the original Xbox at launch.
Halo 4 ranks as one of the best Halo campaign's I've played this gen. I absolutely love what Frank and 343i pulled off at the end of the Xbox 360 lifecycle.
343i didn't initially have all of the playlists at first, and it took a little time to get used to it. But, once they did and the map pack came, Halo 4 multi has become a blast.
I commend 343i for forging a new path in the Halo campaign world with Spartan Ops.
The facts are the core Halo players are still there. But collectively the 360 core fanbase also makes up the ridiculously huge Call of Duty massive.
In terms of Xbox Live, Halo 4 will still be up there all year long with Call of Duty and the ridiculous hour sucking Minecraft.
Bravo 343i. Millions of core fans will be right there for Halo 5 day one as always, no matter how many have tried to hate on the franchise throughout the years.
I know I will be.
Halo 4 ranks as one of the best Halo campaign's I've played this gen. I absolutely love what Frank and 343i pulled off at the end of the Xbox 360 lifecycle.
343i didn't initially have all of the playlists at first, and it took a little time to get used to it. But, once they did and the map pack came, Halo 4 multi has become a blast.
I commend 343i for forging a new path in the Halo campaign world with Spartan Ops.
The facts are the core Halo players are still there. But collectively the 360 core fanbase also makes up the ridiculously huge Call of Duty massive.
In terms of Xbox Live, Halo 4 will still be up there all year long with Call of Duty and the ridiculous hour sucking Minecraft.
Bravo 343i. Millions of core fans will be right there for Halo 5 day one as always, no matter how many have tried to hate on the franchise throughout the years.
I know I will be.
They acknowledged some mistakes, but mostly with regards to the campaign. Overall the direction according to their pillars seems to be a refinement of what is in Halo 4, namely persistent progression affecting gameplay. Which is the devil, of course.
Was there any indication that anyone asked Bungie that question after Halo Reach? Interesting how 343i get's hate for continuing much of the progression that was started by Bungie last hoorah.
Reach NEVER put persistent progression that applied to gameplay. That was Bungie's line. They did not cross it. Aesthetics don't matter.
King Beyond the wall
Member
Reach could have been better, sure, but for me it was still recognisable as Halo. It's gameplay was essentially the same and it was still based on map and weapon control. The issue is that 343 didn't just 'continue' the formulae (mistakes) of Reach, they expanded on them massively and took several large steps that cannot be reversed. In my opininon, these steps fundamentally changed the gameplay of Halo 5. I'm not sure Bungie would have done this had they made Halo 5, but this is impossible to know.
H4/343 defenders need to understand something, when you say your game is going to be more like traditional Halo and you release Call of Duty: Reqiuem then people are going to be pissed off.
the campaign was decent (IMO), but 75% of the story is hidden in terminals which you have to view on Halo Waypoint. seriously?
the campaign was decent (IMO), but 75% of the story is hidden in terminals which you have to view on Halo Waypoint. seriously?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
The terminals being done as they were was silly. There's just no defending that, but it's quite an exaggeration to say 75% of the story was hidden in terminals. So they provide added context to what's going on and who you're dealing with, but it isn't something you necessarily needed to see in order to know that the Didact was a serious threat that needed to be stopped. You could tell all that solely based on what you saw of the Didact in the campaign, and many times some restraint on how much you show or reveal of a story can be a good thing. You want to be careful about trying to do too much with the core game story, and thus distract away from the experience. Now I don't think the terminals distract away from the experience and they should've been able to be accessed without exiting the game, but it sounds at times like people wanted 343 to drop all that Terminal info directly into the main campaign? That would have been too much, so I understand separating it from the actual campaign, but I do agree that you shouldn't have had to leave the game to see the terminals.
It was less of an issue for me personally because I've been reading all the terminals in prior games and I keep pretty up to date on all the books, so I knew precisely who the Didact and Librarian were and how significant they were in the overall scope of the story. Are people better off seeing the terminals than not? Absolutely, they are, but the game really worked plenty well enough on its own as is. And I'm guessing when people make these COD references, they're referring to the multiplayer and not the campaign? Because I felt the campaign was decidedly Halo, but honestly better than I think we've ever gotten it before. I won't get into a huge rant on how impressed I was with the game, but the character performances are rarely better than what they were in this game. I also hope people aren't giving 343 crap for giving Halo 4 very impressive production values and wanting it to look as epic as possible. They wanted to show off the Chief and I thought they did a fantastic job of it. Hell, they did a fantastic job on many fronts. The weakest link compared to previous games was perhaps the music, but I did feel the music fit well with the new direction. It was very well done. I just think Marty's stuff was perhaps even better, but I still think the composer did good work.
And as I said already, I'm no Halo MP guy. I get all Halos for the SP, so I literally don't have any opinion on MP.
Twilight Gap
Member
Bungie made a lot of experimental decisions in Reach in an attempt to expand upon its predecessors. Some worked out great and others did not; however, they did build a technologically impressive game. From Forge World and Firefight to the UI and MM systems, Reach was as good as Halo had ever been. Not a day goes by that I don't regret bitching so much about it because it was clearly still Halo and clearly had its fun moments. I can't even count how many hours I logged in Forge.
But it's a shame that these mistakes all carried over to Halo 4. I mean, I'd rather see something fixed rather than thrown away, but at one point you gotta get rid of what doesn't work. And the majority of those introductions didn't - not just for Halo, but on their own as well.
The Librarian
Banned
Halo 3's netcode was leagues ahead of Halo 2's.
Shake Appeal
Member
i sware, people hate on halo 4 just because it introduces things that CoD does - and not because they are necessarily bad things (see also, JiP). 4's progression of unlocks is such a non-issue. it takes all of a day or two of playing to get what most would want to costomize their loadout AND from game one you are given prefab loadouts with the sought out weapons available.
ideally, and IMO, there shouldnt be any progression affecting gameplay at all - but don't act like we all didnt over come that shortcoming a looong time ago.