Britian -Sweeping changes to "the dole" take effect
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Wouldn't shock me if that's an alt account of his tbh.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I respect what your company does, but by your own admission its too small, and not going to have an affect on the second generation of "machines wot steal jobs" the sequel to the 80's fallout across multiple manufacture industries. The High Street is slowly dying off with little to no retail work to be found, automated tills at supermarkets are like the ultimate peak into a "what are underqualified humans even for now?" future, and only the logistical cost of a fleet of Shelfstacker 9000's in every Tesco's is keeping gruntwork on the table.
Entirely new industries need to be shoe'd in from bottom to top (education to nationwide infrastructure) to even combat the job losses of today, and the government is too busy playing a game of shave the orange to see what deep gashes they can get away with and say "sorry, so sorry!" when it goes a little beyond skin-deep.
It all comes back to the bedroom tax (since this a dole topic and not a WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU DONE TO THE NHS?!?!?!) one. Its a level of unworkable insanity that still beggars my belief. Hearding the poorest populace into smaller apartments (that aren't being built new en masse of course), all while there are no longer crisis loans in place for moving all your shit across town or even out of it. I laugh at Kamiya's "you do it" tweets, but when George Osborne tries to do the same policy wise nationwide in perfect piffering Etonese, there is a bile building in the back of my throat I simply cannot keep down.
Entirely new industries need to be shoe'd in from bottom to top (education to nationwide infrastructure) to even combat the job losses of today, and the government is too busy playing a game of shave the orange to see what deep gashes they can get away with and say "sorry, so sorry!" when it goes a little beyond skin-deep.
It all comes back to the bedroom tax (since this a dole topic and not a WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU DONE TO THE NHS?!?!?!) one. Its a level of unworkable insanity that still beggars my belief. Hearding the poorest populace into smaller apartments (that aren't being built new en masse of course), all while there are no longer crisis loans in place for moving all your shit across town or even out of it. I laugh at Kamiya's "you do it" tweets, but when George Osborne tries to do the same policy wise nationwide in perfect piffering Etonese, there is a bile building in the back of my throat I simply cannot keep down.
Well we can agree on that, anything coming for that cunt makes me want to vomit on him.
As for my industry, well it's growing but you are correct that it won't fill a large void.
CyclopsRock
Member
How do they do that? No one knows what skills are going to be in demand in 20 years. The industry I work in basically didn't exist 20 years ago, and even educational institutions have only caught up because of massive help from the private sector. The government can't plan our economy, because it needs to be based on demand for products.
Also, it's really not a tax.
£53 a week for benefits? How is anyone supposed to actually live on that? Internet, gas, electric and food alone come to more than that....Are there even enough jobs to go around? I remember asking some girl in my local (Canary Wharf) shopping mall how many CV's she gets a day in this clothes store, and she said anything from 20-30+ a day. Kind of shocked me.
I know multiple people that have left the UK because they treat the poor like shit. Working crappy hours for crappy pay which all goes to food and renting a crappy apartment.
Fuck that.
The false equivilences around welfare and welfare fraud are pretty disgusting. Who the fuck wants to be poor. Typical deflection by a government that's beyond incompetent.
Fuck that.
The false equivilences around welfare and welfare fraud are pretty disgusting. Who the fuck wants to be poor. Typical deflection by a government that's beyond incompetent.
Miles Quaritch
Member
So essentially too small to make any significant impact. That's not to downplay or disregard the good work that's been done, but you're essentially a drop of water in the Pacific.
The banks won't be lending freely any time soon, they are far too focused on shoring up capital to protect against any collapses in the EU/elsewhere, capital for fines for rates fixing and whatever comes out, as well as making sure they have capital to pay off mis-selling of products such as PPI, etc.
Lending from banks to support all those budding new entrepreneurs simply isn't there for those who want it. The others are simply using a little known about loophole to claim benefits as I stated earlier.
At least the employment figures look good though.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Where did they go? And how did they afford to go if they were poor?
Miles Quaritch
Member
You're not, you're supposed to top it up by begging. That is, if you're not forced into a lovely job via the fantastic jobs programme.
Well each of those lenders is doing about £2-3M funds out a month, so that's about £700M a year across the country, it's not enough but it's better than "bank won't lend = no lending".
They bought one way tickets to London. And yes the reason they lasted so long was because they had a decent amount of savings. I never said they were poor, just that they had the income and experience of relatively poor people while they were there. I think they were slightly naive about the job market and wages over there, but so what? It's an interesting anecdotal comparison.
cyberheater
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Lots of folks will quite happily sit and eek it out on the dole rather then work.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Sorry, I meant where did they go from the UK.
To be fair, London is merciless at times and expensive unless you know people.
They should have tried Manchester or Leeds.
Oh they came from and to Australia, but they had duel citizenship.
I guess so, but Melbourne and Sydney are two of the most expensive cities in the world too and I've never heard people express similar problems (anecdotal, I know). They just thought the class divide and inequality was so much more... Stark?
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I do video editing and other junk like that, but the BBC moved television production centres out of the midlands (Birmingham specifically) to other centres across the UK in an effort to diversify their workforce.
More jobs for everyone! Except for the media production black hole in the midlands.
At this point I'm having to beg for funding to get my own camera so I can have the ability to produce my own content and be self-employed. I certainly don't have the money to relocate without a guaranteed job.
More jobs for everyone! Except for the media production black hole in the midlands.
At this point I'm having to beg for funding to get my own camera so I can have the ability to produce my own content and be self-employed. I certainly don't have the money to relocate without a guaranteed job.
For me this is bullshit. People might do this, but only because they feel so disenfranchised by society that any kind of upwards mobility seems futile. Imagine you live on an estate, your parents are on the dole, their parents were on the dole and everyone you know is on the dole. How are you going to perceive your prospects in life? Meanwhile you look on the telly and everyone running the country went to Eton.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
And this would be something to aggressively combat after you create the millions of jobs required to occupy this peripheral disenfranchised non-mover part of society.
Except Osborne and co are shunting people off of benefits with "reward the worker!" rhetoric all while unemployment rises and more and more industries slip into the ether. Find those fictional jobs quick, lads! A "kill the poor people coz we don't know what to do with 'em" policy would at least be more honest.
One size fits all policies across an entire nation of fluctuating costs of living (live in an area where the water is run by incompetent fucks and your bill is that much greater? yeah, £53 became thinner), unemployment traps, and more. Then we trot out the "why not just move your entire family like magic" to these utopian locations across the UK with more jobs than they know what to do with. Its all fucking make believe governance being forced through into reality hoping somehow it wont all bubble over too soon or preferably later during Mr Bean's play with the abacus.
The problem is that the wrong benefits are being cut and done away with.
I live in a house with a seriously ill person (previous cancer victim who has been left with no quality of life), a mentally-disabled person, and a person who is severely hearing impaired.
The third person can't get the Incapacity Benefit they were previously entitled to, despite being unable to function enough in society to get a job. They are now receiving carers allowance for caring for the seriously ill person, who from what I know isn't being affected. The mentally disabled person is looking to be losing Benefits with the elimination of the Independent Living Fund in 2015.
...Maybe the whole "more jobs" thing is going to come from having to pay extra people to care for those previously on Independent Living Fund who now won't be able to afford to keep themselves "independent".
I live in a house with a seriously ill person (previous cancer victim who has been left with no quality of life), a mentally-disabled person, and a person who is severely hearing impaired.
The third person can't get the Incapacity Benefit they were previously entitled to, despite being unable to function enough in society to get a job. They are now receiving carers allowance for caring for the seriously ill person, who from what I know isn't being affected. The mentally disabled person is looking to be losing Benefits with the elimination of the Independent Living Fund in 2015.
...Maybe the whole "more jobs" thing is going to come from having to pay extra people to care for those previously on Independent Living Fund who now won't be able to afford to keep themselves "independent".
Nicktendo86
Member
I'm sorry but this is just pure and utter nonsense, I grew up in a council flat in east London with my mum and two brothers in a two bedroom flat, the three of us were in a tiny room with bunk beds. On the ground floor a family of 4 kids and two adults also lived in a two bedroom flat. The mother worked and the father didn't, they asked to be moved to a bigger flat. The response? No, turn your living room into another bedroom. Why? There were no other flats to move them to.
When was this? Around 2000, with a Labour council and a Labour governmet. Why were there no other flats? Because bigger ones were taken up with families who didn't need the extra rooms. These reforms may seem harsh but change is needed.
Edit: To respond to Polari's point, I grew up with parent's happy to be on the dole in an estate with 90% of people on the dole. My school was a shit hole with no one interested in learning and would disrupt the entire class. How have my brothers and I turned out? I have a decent job in the accounts dept at a law firm having worked my way up from an admin role, one brother is the office manager of an estate agents and the other brother runs his own watch repair business. Why have we done well? Because we hated living in a shit hole and wanted to do better with our lives. People need to pick themsleves up and help themselves, just saying oh they have no aspiration because everyone around them is on the dole is no excuse.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Yep, case by case basis workable change. Not an arbitrary slap on fee for any size of extra room you can just about get away with calling a bedroom because someone could sleep like a cat curled up in the corner in it.
Putting out a tax and hoping the situation is going to magically work itself out right rather than put in the hard work required to effect such change is poor governance at its very concept. Its the same reason the stormtrooper lead Disability Benefit crackdown has resulted in shameful outcomes such as Katzii's anecdotal evidence and the always excellent to cite "man who died from heart failure". Who cares, one less serf to govern and move about eh.
Bedroom Tax does at least satisfy the reptandroid camps bingo line with "Come up with our own Poll Tax shiner" on it, I guess. Small victories.
cyberheater
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So it's societies fault that generations of people are born to folks that don't want to work, refuse to learn and drag up a new generation of scum to be like themselves.
I lived in Sydeny and Melbourne, compared to London they are far more liveable on a lower income, but not so much the rest of the UK.
A guy I went to school with in Doncaster came from a poor background, got into Cambridge and is now a foreign envoy who speaks 4 or 5 languages.
Another guy I went to school with both parents were unemployed for as long as I knew him, he went to college and became a joiner. He then set up a roofing company which is turning over a few million a year.
Life's what you make it, you only get one shot and it's the easy option to blame others and where they come from. Fact is to get on at Eton you have to be willing to graft as being any type of disruptive force there is not tolerated.
travisbickle
Member
Yeah, pretty much. Who else is supposed to help children educate themselves into a better position other then society?
Pretty much, yeah. That's a result of the way society's designed. Unless you're arguing these people are genetically predisposed to not working.
Miles Quaritch
Member
While the figures sound impressive, it's still a drop in the ocean. A ocean that won't be giving up its bounty any time soon for the reasons I listed.
See now this right here is also bullshit. The old "one guy did it so why can't everyone do it?" argument. I suppose because you had a couple of mates that did OK that justifies this country's appalling problem of endemic poverty (which is only exacerbated by an outdated class system).
Nicktendo86
Member
This. I know circumstances can be tough, but people really do need to start taking some fucking responsibility for their lives.
Edit: Polari, what about my example I mentioned? That's three brothers who all came from the bottom to work out of it. The goverment need to do more to get kids out of poverty, that is obvious, but individuals need to stand up for themselves. 90% of people in my estate didn't work because they didn't want to, I saw kids join gangs who would later mug me and my brothers. We had the same chance they had and we did well because we WANTED to.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Ah right. I was just wondering where would be preferable to move to from the UK (and I imagine relocating costs a lot of money), but that makes sense. I imagine if you gave a lot of poor people in the UK the option of moving to Australia they'd take it.
CyclopsRock
Member
This is true, but I think it's why an overwhelming reform of the welfare system is needed. For decades, all that's been done is tinkering at the side, adding a small benefit here, tweaking the rate there. Even Thatcher didn't have the stones to reform it. What's undeniable is that change is necessary. The change needs to make it so that people are incentivise into work and not out of it, precisely so we can avoid situations where you have households with kids growing up where they've never known their parents or even their grandparents to work. It's not the fault of the people, it's the system they're trapped in that's at fault, and it's the system that needs fixing. I think that having a system whereby benefits are slowly reduced over the course of time/wage increase would ensure that working is ALWAYS preferable to not. Right now, we have so many cases where the gains of employment are offset by the losses in benefits that it's not really rational to spend x hours a week working for a small increase. Again, that's not the people's fault, it's the system that traps them. This method would actually cost more, in the short term at least, but might actually help solve the problem. I haven't heard any other suggestions that'll solve the problem, but rather temporarily mitigate the situations of people out of work. (Of course, these two aren't mutually exclusive).
That's great, but you could see a way out - which considering all three of you have gone on to do well - suggests you had parents that did something right. My point is you have to question why people don't want to work, because I don't believe that's a natural state of being (at least for the vast majority of people) but rather something society has contributed heavily to.
Working on child poverty would be a start, yet the Tories have pretty much reversed the progress made under Labour. How fucked is that? See this article for example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/11/tory-vilification-poor-child-poverty
travisbickle
Member
"People who aren't working are earning more then people who are."
"Something needs to change? the system is unfair"
"We have to make work worth more"
....
"lets reduce unemployment benefits!!"
"Something needs to change? the system is unfair"
"We have to make work worth more"
....
"lets reduce unemployment benefits!!"
Nicktendo86
Member
I didn't see much progress when I was a child during the Labour years, not saying that they didn't do any good but I didn't see it myself.
We have actually done pretty much the opposite of what our parent's did, we don't smoke, we work etc so in a way they were our great example of what not to do, in that way you could be correct.
I'm afraid the entitlement attitudes you have seen in this thread is pretty prevalent in this country, people just expect things to be handed to them on a plate.
The jobs people say aren't here, are, they are just done by people from elsewhere in Europe who are prepared to work harder and throw less sickies. Why do night work in a factory when the Government will pay for everything and you can do bits and pieces on the side?
Hopefully it wont happen to you guys in the states.
I like this idea. Sadly the problem at the moment is finding a job in the first place.
Fucked up logic isn't it!
It just goes to show why Labour got us into such a large deficit, tax revenues vary with the economic weather while benefit commitments are always there and as we are seeing prove hard to contain
I realise I edited it in afterwards, but read the article I linked.
As for your parents I wasn't saying they necessarily did it by design, but obviously something worked within your upbringing that was different from most of the kids in the estate.
Huw_Dawson
Member
This thread is what happens when readers of The Guardian and The Daily Mail meet.
PJV3
Member
Sad isn't it.
The system is falling apart, the people at the bottom must be the problem, not the fuckers taking an ever bigger slice.
CyclopsRock
Member
Indeedy, but it's not a disconnected issue. Right now, the incentive for people from outside the UK - who are not eligible for anything like the same level of support - is simply greater. People don't like being poor and living in a shit hole with no money etc. This is as true for foreign-born workers as it is for British workers. But there is a difference in incentive, because where a British person could see their income scarcely increase with the offer of part time work, for a foreign-born worker it could be the difference between having any home or any food and not. This has a few effects - one is that they're more likely to take the work in the first place. The second is that the knowledge that immigrants need the money more than those from Britain, for this reason, engenders employers with a (not entirely unreasonable) assumption that immigrants will necessarily be better employers, as they have more to lose by getting the boot. This is compounded in areas where it's more expensive to live (such as Central London) because housing benefit goes up accordingly, which makes the prospect of losing it in order to earn a low wage even less attractive. This isn't the case for immigrants, and so you end up with huge areas of London with about 5 coffee shops per square foot and not a single British employee. This isn't hyperbole, btw (well, the 5 coffee shops per square foot bit is), I have lived in London my whole life, and in the very centre for the past 3, and I genuinely do not know the last time I was served by a British person in Pret, Eat, Costa etc. There has to be a reason for this, and I refuse to believe that it's because foreign workers are simply better at making coffee.
As I said before (and it's frustrating that I need to make this disclaimer), I'm not anti-immigration at all. I'm very for it. But I think we need to acknowledge the role of immigration from the EU and the Commonwealth that has the effect of increasing our labour pool enormously, and this affects this has on a) suppressing wages and b) reducing the number of jobs that are available to those whose incentives are already lowered by the existence of the benefits system. I think the system I outlined above would reduce this conflicted incentive system whilst also allowing us to keep our relatively open borders.
Edit: I should re-state from before that the increase in the number of jobs during Labour's years was only slightly greater than the increase in workers in the UK born outside of the UK. Immigrants certainly are taking a lot of jobs in the UK (though I'm not as silly as to say "taking our jobs" - the jobs belong to whoever can best do them!) and I think part of it is due to this incentive structure. Why else?
Psychotext
Member
IDS reckons he could do it. I'd be surprised if he didn't spend more than that per week on organic produce.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Wow, I thought this kind of thinking only existed in the U.S.
You forgot the part about female teenage girls who purposely choose the life plan of getting pregnant at the age of 16 so they can leave their parents house, get a free council house and become "independent".
This thread shows how depressively effective and widespread the smearing and shaming of the poor has become.
Fucking hell. OK ignore any concept of social justice, ignore not wanting the poor to starve or freeze to death out of any sense of kindness, lets look at this brass tacks, economically.
Cutting benefits makes no sense economically, nor does cutting taxes for the rich. The marginal utility of income, and marginal propensity to spend, is not some 'fringe lunatic socialist' ploy. Fiscal multipliers are higher for benefits than for top rate or corporate tax cuts.
The government should be giving money to the people who have to spend it (the poor), and taking it from the people who refuse to spend it (the rich), in order to encourage growth and allowing us to reduce our deficit. This is the only way deficit reduction can work, and its exactly the opposite of what they are doing.
Demonisation of the poor, real classy. Never mind that this 'generations of worklessness' shit is a myth, less than 1% of workless households have even two generations who have never worked, they are not 'scum'.
Sounds like me (hey, Doncaster buddy), and I got out of that hole and am successful now too, but I somehow managed to not become a complete shit while doing so.
Nobody is saying it's impossible to come from a poor background and be successful, but 2 million people can't all own roofing companies.
Fact is, to get on at Eton - Annual fees of £32,067 - You have to be rich.
Yeah, shameful how people in a modern civilised society feel entitled to food, shelter and warmth. Utterly sickening, bring back the work houses.
That'll be why there are more than 5 unemployed people per every vacant job? (ignoring the fudging of the figures through underemployment, 'self-employment', workfare, etc.)
Fucking hell. OK ignore any concept of social justice, ignore not wanting the poor to starve or freeze to death out of any sense of kindness, lets look at this brass tacks, economically.
Cutting benefits makes no sense economically, nor does cutting taxes for the rich. The marginal utility of income, and marginal propensity to spend, is not some 'fringe lunatic socialist' ploy. Fiscal multipliers are higher for benefits than for top rate or corporate tax cuts.
The government should be giving money to the people who have to spend it (the poor), and taking it from the people who refuse to spend it (the rich), in order to encourage growth and allowing us to reduce our deficit. This is the only way deficit reduction can work, and its exactly the opposite of what they are doing.
Demonisation of the poor, real classy. Never mind that this 'generations of worklessness' shit is a myth, less than 1% of workless households have even two generations who have never worked, they are not 'scum'.
Sounds like me (hey, Doncaster buddy), and I got out of that hole and am successful now too, but I somehow managed to not become a complete shit while doing so.
Nobody is saying it's impossible to come from a poor background and be successful, but 2 million people can't all own roofing companies.
Fact is, to get on at Eton - Annual fees of £32,067 - You have to be rich.
Yeah, shameful how people in a modern civilised society feel entitled to food, shelter and warmth. Utterly sickening, bring back the work houses.
That'll be why there are more than 5 unemployed people per every vacant job? (ignoring the fudging of the figures through underemployment, 'self-employment', workfare, etc.)
I agree with all of this 100%, I don't see how it relates to the post you quoted though, I was referring to the people who are saying there is going to be a revolt and the Govt's heads will be on pikes (and someone has said just that), social breakdown and all that shit. People bring up the organised looting (it wasn't a riot outside of the race riot that started it) as if it's relevant, it isn't.
It won't be something that happens immediately- or even 10 years. It may not happen, but it realistically could- or even worse, we could elect our way into that. Most likely the tyranny will be the tyranny of a democratically elected majority.
It annoys me that the new benefits cap is actually 25% higher than the wage I earn at work at the moment.
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