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[QuicheFontaine]

Now you're getting it.

Edit: this probably came off a lot more condescending than I meant it.

That was a tad condescending.

 

[PJV3]

That was a tad condescending.

It's Cheezmo, he's better at demanding the heads of the rich be removed. He is trying to be nice, bless him.

 

[dalyr95]

HIS motivation

HIS actions

HIS responsibility

Anything else and we're entering an alternative universe of fucking stupid.

People being kind is to blame...GTFO.

Amazing how people think it's a collective responsibility to provide for the poor (having a house and not working I would not classify as poor, I classify that as lazy) till they do something nasty.

 

[PJV3]

Amazing how people think it's a collective responsibility to provide for the poor (having a house and not working I would not classify as poor, I classify that as lazy) till they do something nasty.

Nasty actions lead to the collective justice system and prison.

Which we all get together and pay for.

 

[LanceVance]

Philpott is an absolute cunt and you cannot blame the welfare state for this. Osborne is a slimy cunt for using this tragedy to try and forward his political aims. Now I'm not saying that the welfare system is perfect and I do believe changes need to be made to it, but this tragedy happened because philpott is an immoral vile cunt who would do anything for some extra dosh. You cannot use a tragedy like this to try and back up your political goals. It's extremely disrespectful to the children that have died and the family that is grieving for them.

 

[PJV3]

Philpott is an absolute cunt and you cannot blame the welfare state for this. Osborne is a slimy cunt for using this tragedy to try and forward his political aims. Now I'm not saying that the welfare system is perfect and I do believe changes need to be made to it, but this tragedy happened because philpott is an immoral vile cunt who would do anything for some extra dosh. You cannot use a tragedy like this to try and back up your political goals. It's extremely disrespectful to the children that have died and the family that is grieving for them.

Philpott gaming the welfare system and what is right and wrong about that is a valid discussion. Philpott burning down a house and killing his kids isn't.

I don't know why other people are struggling with the concept.

 

[Kinky John]

I see Gideon's been snapped parking in a disabled parking space. Someone should check to see if this cunt's claiming disability benefit.

 

[D4Danger]

George Osborne is fucking cunt for using the Philpott case to score points. What a piece of crap.

 

[LanceVance]

Philpott gaming the welfare system and what is right and wrong about that is a valid discussion. Philpott burning down a house and killing his kids isn't.

I don't know why other people are struggling with the concept.

Because Osborne shouldn't use a tragedy like this to back up his political aims. Also this is a one off case from a man who clearly will do anything he can for money and who doesn't care about anyone but himself and is not representative of the welfare system as a whole

I don't know why other people are struggling with the concept.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

If we're bitching...

 

[PJV3]

Because Osborne shouldn't use a tragedy like this to back up his political aims. Also this is a one off case from a man who clearly will do anything he can for money and who doesn't care about anyone but himself and is not representative of the welfare system as a whole

I don't know why other people are struggling with the concept.

well at least you get it.
Were one step away from asking for it territory.

 

[f0rk]

Do you have anything more detailed than this pie chart, 3 isn't a high enough spilt for me.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

8k a year for his children, 38k a year in working tax credits and 7k a year in housing benefits. So much for the claim that he received 100k in benefits a year.

The claim was never £100k in benefits, it was receiving a wage equivalent to ~ £100k. It's actually more like £80k if those figures are correct (I think the child tax credit + child benefit figure was ~ £12.5k, it's ~ £8k now for obvious reasons so it would have been a wage equivalent to £90k).

Remember that tax is not paid on benefits so for a family to have the same spending power as this cunt they would have had to bring in £80-90k of regular income. That would put the household in the top 10% by income. If you don't see something wrong with that picture, that anyone on benefits could receive so much as to be in the top 10% of household by income then you need to get your head checked.

 

[nib95]

The claim was never £100k in benefits, it was receiving a wage equivalent to ~ £100k. It's actually more like £80k if those figures are correct (I think the child tax credit + child benefit figure was ~ £12.5k, it's ~ £8k now for obvious reasons so it would have been a wage equivalent to £90k).

Remember that tax is not paid on benefits so for a family to have the same spending power as this cunt they would have had to bring in £80-90k of regular income. That would put the household in the top 10% by income. If you don't see something wrong with that picture, that anyone on benefits could receive so much as to be in the top 10% of household by income then you need to get your head checked.

To be fair, that's a sign that elements of the system are broken, but more on the management and administration side. Ultimately the law should have just kicked in earlier going after the father, but you can't really cut off the benefits altogether since there'll be poor children who've done nothing wrong who will have little to live on.

 

[slider]

I wonder how much of the benefits were actually spent on his kids. I know I'm spiralling off on a tangent but it does get a gut reaction from me.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

To be fair, that's a sign that elements of the system are broken, but more on the management and administration side. Ultimately the law should have just kicked in earlier going after the father, but you can't really cut off the benefits altogether since there'll be poor children who've done nothing wrong who will have little to live on.

Not just elements of the system, the whole damn thing is busted. The coalition missed their chance at the beginning of 2010 to just wholesale scrap the tax credits system and just lump everything onto the tax free allowance by raising it up to £12.5k overnight. That would mean working people still benefit and people out of work are still eligible for JSA etc... if they don't have a job. Taxing people who work only to give their money back to them via a series of means tested benefits doesn't make sense. Better to have a slightly lower threshold for the 40% bracket and a much higher tax free allowance. That way wealthy people don't benefit but people on middle incomes do.

I wonder how much of the benefits were actually spent on his kids. I know I'm spiralling off on a tangent but it does get a gut reaction from me.

I expect it was very little.

 

[nib95]

Not just elements of the system, the whole damn thing is busted. The coalition missed their chance at the beginning of 2010 to just wholesale scrap the tax credits system and just lump everything onto the tax free allowance by raising it up to £12.5k overnight. That would mean working people still benefit and people out of work are still eligible for JSA etc... if they don't have a job. Taxing people who work only to give their money back to them via a series of means tested benefits doesn't make sense. Better to have a slightly lower threshold for the 40% bracket and a much higher tax free allowance. That way wealthy people don't benefit but people on middle incomes do.

I don't really think that's a great solution since part of the working tax credit is for people who are working, but on a very low income, i.e. up to £3k or something like that, working x amount of hours. The system you've outlined is more geared towards people who are already earning a full salary, and is probably far costlier since every single person employed full stop gets a whopping tax free allowance benefit of £2.5k whereas the working tax credit for example, is for people who barely earn that in itself. Child tax credits again being geared at not ALL who are employed, but those with children.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I don't really think that's a great solution since part of the working tax credit is for people who are working, but on a very low income, i.e. up to £3k or something like that, working x amount of hours. The system you've outlined is more geared towards people who are already earning a full salary, and is probably far costlier since every single person employed full stop gets a whopping tax free allowance benefit of £2.5k whereas the working tax credit for example, is for people who barely earn that in itself. Child tax credits again being geared at not ALL who are employed, but those with children.

Child tax credits could easily be turned into tax allowances so it only incentivises working households to have children. It's how it used to be when we all grew up. Brown changed the allowance to a credit under the guise of eliminating child poverty and instead we got problem families and workless households with 4+ kids. If you lose your job and already have children then it's easy to have tiers of JSA for support up to a couple of kids, no more than that. Have it so that qualifying for the extra support requires paying into the system for some amount of time so that only people who have worked qualify and the incentive for workless households to have kids as a way of getting money for nothing has gone away.

A low income top-up would be possible within JSA/ESA so that JSA is not completely withdrawn on finding a low income part time job, but at 40h per week being paid the statutory minimum wage the annual wage is £12.5k per year. That's why I used the specific figure.

The current system is not fit for purpose, it is complicated, it incentivises worklessness and it causes child poverty.

 

[Captain_Spanky]

The front page of today's Mail Online. I'm utterly flabbergasted, it looks like a parody.

The Left WILL try to hijack the result

 

[Psychotext]

Dear fucking Christ. Detachment from reality complete.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Classic Daily Mail. Honestly it's not surprising, they are just printing the conversations from pretty much every living room in the country over the last couple of days. Right or wrong, the Mail exists to sell papers, and confirmation of people's opinions does that. Making people feel that they are on the right side of something will sell papers or get website hits.

 

[d'artagnan]

Genuinely missed that bit, thanks for pointing it out!

Being in the community but on a hospital-based order is a bit of a 'mare. Whilst still on a hospital-based order they don't need a reason to yank you back into hospital. Your consultant could do it because he didn't like the colour of his piss that morning.

Psychiatrists essentially own your arse if you're sectioned and I did have one consultant psychiatrist who actually justified changing my meds without any discussion or consent with me on the grounds that he was a consultant psychiatrist and he could do what he wanted whilst he was my RMO (Responsible Medical Officer).

I made sure he wasn't my doctor for much longer after that...

Back to the subject of benefits and the change in tack in the thread as to whether Mick Philpott's actions are indicative of anything in the benefits system in the UK or are cause for a debate about the system, recently Stephen Seddon was convicted of murdering his parents in order to try and inherit a quarter of a million pounds.

Philpott's actions are no more reason for a debate about the benefits system than Seddon's are cause for us to discuss the inheritance system and whether we should tax estates upon death at 100% in order to discourage anyone from killing solely to inherit sums of money.

Philpott and Seddon are examples of the lengths sociopaths will go to in order to get what they want rather than any indicators of the systems they find themselves in. They'd still be sociopaths if they were born into wealth and had attended Eton...

 

[AFollowerNotALeader]

George Osborne is fucking cunt for using the Philpott case to score points. What a piece of crap.

I agree. I've been getting progressively pissed over this. So. Here's the thing.

A bit of background first. I grew up relatively poor. I went to the sink local primary school and from there into the relatively shitty high-school it fed into. I am a massive nerd. I worked hard through both schools. I got good grades. I was bullied and was a social pariah as a result. I went to university. I got three degrees (a BSc, an MSc and a PhD). I moved to London, got a job working in IT and earn enough that in the BBC/LSE survey thing I am "technical middle class".

So yes, it's galling that I went through all that, and now a proportion of the money I earn is stolen by the government and used to allow the same people who pissed about through school, spent their entire time pissing about, doing drugs and screwing around and bullying to continue to spend their time pissing about, doing drugs and screwing.

Therefore, I am naturally tempted by changing that system because to me it seems massively unfair. That's not to say that I think we should abolish welfare, because I also have friends who have or are going through massively rough patches in their lives and it's clear that there needs to be a safety net for people when things go wrong. Just because some of the people supported by welfare are complete arseholes doesn't mean everyone or even the majority of the people supported by the system are arseholes.

That said,

George Osborne and the Daily Mail using public feelings about the Philpott tragedy to galvanise support for cutting back benefits is completely unacceptable. It is completely unacceptable to suggest that Philpott is representative of benefits claimants. I find politicians using tragedies like this to push through policies utterly appalling and this is only the most recent example.

Here are a couple more:

* Phone hacking incidents used to destroy the free press.
* 9/11 and 7/7 used to destroy free and open societies here and in the US.

It's not just the UK:

* Every time there's a school shooting in the US there's a debate about gun control with politicians screaming that something "must be done", and pressure groups like the Brady campaign exploiting the tragedy for their own ends

These all have themes in common:

1) The evil actions single individual or small number ofindividuals are used to demonize a large part of society as a whole.
2) The actions taken by those individuals are already illegal.
3) Knee-jerk legislation operating on the belief that all parts of that group are secretly psychopaths which makes criminal or otherwise negatively impacts things ordinary law-abiding citizens want to do without harming anyone else.

Before someone imagines that I am particularly having a go at the Tories here, it is equally unedifying to see politicians from the Labour party who are as responsible for some of these other examples criticising George Osborne. They are as bad as he is.

Almost all journalists did not hack Milly Dowlers phone.
Almost all Muslims are not terrorists.
Almost all gun owners are not school shooters.
Almost all benefits claimants are not farming kids or setting them on fire.

Anyone who suggests otherwise is simply manipulating emotions surrounding a tragedy to push through their pre-existing agenda, and that's pretty sickening.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Whining about "THE LEFT" in this country is one of my Total Retard barometers.

The Left doesn't even fucking exist here anymore and what's left of it is the most ineffectual, fractious, powerless waste of time imaginable. And yet you have dipshits screaming from the rooftops about how JOSEF MARX is out to fuck things up.

No different from the neo-Fascists of the Tea Party calling Obama a Marxist and calling it the Communist News Network.

 

[PJV3]

Whining about "THE LEFT" in this country is one of my Total Retard barometers.

The Left doesn't even fucking exist here anymore and what's left of it is the most ineffectual, fractious, powerless waste of time imaginable. And yet you have dipshits screaming from the rooftops about how JOSEF MARX is out to fuck things up.

No different from the neo-Fascists of the Tea Party calling Obama a Marxist and calling it the Communist News Network.

There's a bloke who hands out the Socialist worker at the hospital, I think he gets rid of 5 copies, I buy one, but that's mostly because socialists are like red phoneboxes, I get nostalgic.

Thatcher and Kinnock destroyed the Left a long time ago. Blair shat on the gravestone.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Let's have a srs national discussion on corporate welfare instead

 

[Angry Fork]

Is this kind of thing really gaining traction in the UK? I heard you guys are also on the verge of getting rid of the NHS too? Is this true? I read this guys blog from the UK he talks about this recent Philpott issue.

http://www.leninology.com/2013/04/vilifying-welfare.html

It makes me so unbelievably frustrated and depressed, the wealthy keep hammering down more and more, I don't know when ordinary people will stop believing right wing propaganda and gravitate back to the left. What will it take? Another depression? It feels like this shit is never ending in all of the major 1st world countries.

 

[PJV3]

Is this kind of thing really gaining traction in the UK? I heard you guys are also on the verge of getting rid of the NHS too? Is this true? I read this guys blog from the UK he talks about this recent Philpott issue.

http://www.leninology.com/2013/04/vilifying-welfare.html

It makes me so unbelievably frustrated and depressed, the wealthy keep hammering down more and more, I don't know when ordinary people will stop believing right wing propaganda and gravitate back to the left. What will it take? Another depression? It feels like this shit is never ending in all of the major 1st world countries.

We are in the process of gradually fucking up public services, the goal is making them so chaotic and unpopular, so that nobody cares when they get flogged off to Branson, g4s etc.

Housing- fucked and expensive.
NHS- screwed like Royal Mail, about to be cherry picked to death.
Schools- splintered and budgets politicised
Welfare- landlords and employers rejoice

Everything and anything- give it to an "independent" regulator, to spread the free market and absolve politicians of any responsibility whatsoever.

 

[slider]

We are in the process of gradually fucking up public services, the goal is making them so chaotic and unpopular, so that nobody cares when they get flogged off to Branson, g4s etc.

Housing- fucked and expensive.
NHS- screwed like Royal Mail, about to be cherry picked to death.
Schools- splintered and budgets politicised
Welfare- landlords and employers rejoice

Everything and anything- give it to an "independent" regulator, to spread the free market and absolve politicians of any responsibility whatsoever.

The real fucking tragedy is it worked so well in the past. Thinking of rail travel specifically.

Edit: I should note I'm a miserable and cynical bastard about the rich getting richer.

 

[PJV3]

The real fucking tragedy is it worked so well in the past. Thinking of rail travel specifically.

We simply must hand over the East Coast mainline to the private sector, it's making millions for the taxpayers. that's not allowed.

 

[slider]

The realisation that so much is set up for the rich to get richer was both depressing and enraging.

 

[PJV3]

The realisation that so much is set up for the rich to get richer was both depressing and enraging.

The ironic thing is that these public services were set up(in part) to protect the rich as much as the poor. To improve social cohesion and neutralise revolutionary and hard line socialism.

 

[slider]

The ironic thing is that these public services were set up(in part) to protect the rich as much as the poor. To improve social cohesion and neutralise revolutionary and hard line socialism.

Didn't know that. Really interesting.

Your second sentence... People often say things are cyclical. I fear it might be true.

 

[defel]

The NHS isnt going anywhere, Im not worried.

 

[PJV3]

The NHS isnt going anywhere, Im not worried.

It wont dissappear overnight, it's when private sector drains away more and more of the easy and profitable work, and leaves the rest for the state to pick up the tab and Then the right will use it as proof that it should be private full stop.

people have got to stop taking these things for granted, they're not a natural right, they were fought for and they can be lost.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Yep, just look at the way the GOP in America deal with programmes they dont like. Cut and hamper them and make them ineffective, then use the failures that result as an argument for "reform".

 

[PJV3]

Yep, just look at the way the GOP in America deal with programmes they dont like. Cut and hamper them and make them ineffective, then use the failures that result as an argument for "reform".

Over here the right wheel out the very independent Conservative tax payers association to do the arguing.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Anyone watched Spirit of '45? I've heard it's good and am gonna see about picking it up when it's out on DVD.

 

[slider]

It wont dissappear overnight, it's when private sector drains away more and more of the easy and profitable work, and leaves the rest for the state to pick up the tab and Then the right will use it as proof that it should be private full stop.

people have got to stop taking these things for granted, they're not a natural right, they were fought for and they can be lost.

What would you suggest as the most effective way to mobilise the "everyman" voice?

I've never really been much of a political activist (or even a political animal), but I bloody well do care what happens to the this country and its citizens.

 

[Acorn]

What would you suggest as the most effective way to mobilise the "everyman" voice?

I've never really been much of a political activist (or even a political animal), but I bloody well do care what happens to the this country and its citizens.

Nothing, the everyman is working class reads The Sun and votes the way Murdoch wants them to vote, against their own interests.

We're fucked.

/shrug

At least the NHS is devolved, thank fuck.

 

[PJV3]

Nothing, the everyman is working class reads The Sun and votes the way Murdoch wants them to vote, against their own interests.

We're fucked.

/shrug

At least the NHS is devolved, thank fuck.

lol, I'm not quite that pessimistic.

Voting is almost useless, but do it anyway for a party that is closest to your vision of a better way.

Defend things you believe in when topics come up, caring and being left of centre is considered whiny and boring, so don't over do it.

Action- marches and demo's can be fun and occasionally effective.

If that sounds boring buy a guillotine and some pitchforks, or wait 100 years for the political pendulum to swing the other way.

 

[Acorn]

lol, I'm not quite that pessimistic.

Voting is almost useless, but do it anyway for a party that is closest to your vision of a better way.

Defend things you believe in when topics come up, caring and being left of centre is considered whiny and boring, so don't over do it.

Action- marches and demo's can be fun and occasionally effective.

If that sounds boring buy a guillotine and some pitchforks.

It's hard not to be pessimistic when every time the Tories are in power they do things that are irreversible. See the slow motion privatisation of the NHS, its set up for them to pick it up again when they are next elected to continue down that path.

Since the 80s it's been a slow motion destruction of everything that was set up post WW2, nothing stops this train.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Inform and agitate. Hear people saying stupid shit or repeating misinformation? Give them some facts. Spread the truth about what's going on. Try and convince people to stop listening to this country's awful media machine, but do it nicely - it's easier to con someone than it is to convince them they've been conned.

Agitprop is great for this sort of thing. When talking about bad shit that happens try and get the person to put themselves into the affected person's position.

Combat Liberalism

Liberalism manifests itself in various ways.

To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism.

To indulge in irresponsible criticism in private instead of actively putting forward one's suggestions to the organization. To say nothing to people to their faces but to gossip behind their backs, or to say nothing at a meeting but to gossip afterwards. To show no regard at all for the principles of collective life but to follow one's own inclination. This is a second type.

To let things drift if they do not affect one personally; to say as little as possible while knowing perfectly well what is wrong, to be worldly wise and play safe and seek only to avoid blame. This is a third type.

...

To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.

...

To be among the masses and fail to conduct propaganda and agitation or speak at meetings or conduct investigations and inquiries among them, and instead to be indifferent to them and show no concern for their well-being, forgetting that one is a Communist and behaving as if one were an ordinary non-Communist. This is a seventh type.

To see someone harming the interests of the masses and yet not feel indignant, or dissuade or stop him or reason with him, but to allow him to continue. This is an eighth type.

You can ignore the Commie stuff if you wish but the message is sound.

 

[PJV3]

It's hard not to be pessimistic when every time the Tories are in power they do things that are irreversible. See the slow motion privatisation of the NHS, its set up for them to pick it up again when they are next elected to continue down that path.

Since the 80s it's been a slow motion destruction of everything that was set up post WW2, nothing stops this train.

It's not the tories, it's fucking Labour's fault.

Labour used to stand up for these things, now they just triangulate and farm any responsibility to NGOs.

There is no voice besides the SNP that says anything different in this country anymore.

 

[Acorn]

It's not the tories, it's fucking Labour's fault.

Labour used to stand up for these things, now they just triangulate and farm any responsibility to NGOs.

There is no voice besides the SNP that says anything different in this country anymore.

Labour is the lesser of two evils. Nothing more nothing less, and when they did stand for these things they were unelectable hence Blair.

So really for us (Scotland) our only hope at retaining these institutions is getting the hell away from England and Wales. I'm naturally a unionist (and 'old' labour) but the reality is that England is turning more and more into a Ayn Rand American nightmare with every year.

Nothing that is a social good will remain in England within the next 50 years.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Thatcher destroyed the post-war consensus and shifted the Overton window too far to the right. As a result, all we have now is slightly differing types of neoliberalism which is why even Labour are just diet Tory these days.

No real political pluralism, IMO.

 

[Acorn]

Thatcher destroyed the post-war consensus and shifted the Overton window too far to the right. As a result, all we have now is slightly differing types of neoliberalism which is why even Labour are just diet Tory these days.

No real political pluralism, IMO.

Exactly, I'd say it was genius if the outcome wasn't so shitty.

Neoliberalism failed whats the answer? MOAR NEOLIBERALISM BLAME THE FECKLESS POOR!

EDIT Screw that, I'd rather go broke caring about people than be rich and not give a fuck about my fellow man.

 

[PJV3]

Labour is the lesser of two evils. Nothing more nothing less, and when they did stand for these things they were unelectable hence Blair.

So really for us (Scotland) our only hope at retaining these institutions is getting the hell away from England and Wales. I'm naturally a unionist (and 'old' labour) but the reality is that England is turning more and more into a Ayn Rand American nightmare with every year.

Nothing that is a social good will remain in England within the next 50 years.

I find nationalism depressing, but if I was in Scotland I would vote to leave the Union.

At least you would keep the welfare state as it is supposed to function.

 

[Acorn]

I find nationalism depressing, but if I was in Scotland I would vote to leave the Union.

At least you would keep the welfare state as it is supposed to function.

I find it equally depressing as well and campaigned against it for years. But the only out here is being independent.

The damage being done to everything good that we set up post WW2 is too great and too far beyond repair for it ever to be good again.

I wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

EDIT If we don't vote for it, I at least hope England kicks us out. Let you have your permanent Tory Govt(No Scottish votes, no Labour for the foreseeable future) and we can have our permanent Social democratic govt. WIN WIN.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Annexe everything north of Derby pls.