A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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cubicle47b said:
I don't think GRRM has brought too many people back to life (it was Beric who traded off with what's left of Catelyn and then Gregor, kind of) but he does use possible character deaths as chapter cliffhangers too often. edit: I guess there are a couple examples of people we know (not assume) to be dead still being alive like Aegon (he's a fake, though) and Mance.
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Yeah, the point was more about all the cliffhangers implying someone has died. Or instances showing a corpse we're supposed to think is someone, or someone long believed to be dead, etc etc. Overall I just don't really believe a character is dead anymore.

I do feel like at some point Martin will actually kill someone important off and it'll be a shock - but only because no one really reacts because everyone assumes that the character will just be back in a few chapters.
 
The thing about Quentin is, it would have worked if ADWD had lived up to its original concept: all of Dany's "suitors" coming to see her, and how they all fare. But instead of getting the result of each suitor's attempt, which we could use to compare and highlight character strengths/weaknesses, we just get Quentin's abject failure. If the rest had actually made it to Mereen in time and had audiences/conversations/results with Dany, Quentin could have been a natural fit even if his story came to the same end.
 
For the shadow baby thing, I think the main reason it's not used more often is that it's not really that powerful. I mean, I'm making assumptions here, but I don't think you could use one to wack an entire army one man at a time. It probably has some sort of "time limit" before it expires, like a summoned pet in an RPG. It obviously takes something out of both Mel and the "father" to do it. Most of all, killing one person doesn't really mean squat in most cases.
 
Crisco said:
For the shadow baby thing, I think the main reason it's not used more often is that it's not really that powerful. I mean, I'm making assumptions here, but I don't think you could use one to wack an entire army one man at a time. It probably has some sort of "time limit" before it expires, like a summoned pet in an RPG. It obviously takes something out of both Mel and the "father" to do it. Most of all, killing one person doesn't really mean squat in most cases.
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Yeah that's all well and good but there's been no explanation from GRRM about it, in either the books or just general interviews, I'd have no problem if Melisandre said that it took a lot of 'something' and that is why she can't just do it whenever she wants but at the moment we know very little about it.


George has to kill off some major characters soon, not just because he has too many POV characters but we are getting near the end of the books and he's been moving the characters about into their positions, there is no way that there is going to be a lack of action in the next book. Even early on we've got the chance of some characters being killed off in the battles.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
nor did he forshadow enough stuff he was clearly planning as far back as ACoK (just finished the House of the Undying chapter in a reread) like Aegon, who, to the average reader, just came out of nowhere.
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I kinda disagree with this. The problem with Aegon was not planning. It is craftly intervowen with the plot and foreshadowerd (the dragon has 3 heads, the mummer's dragon, yadda, yadda). The problem that I had with Aegon is the same that I had when Martin shuddenly decided in AFFC to introduce one bajillion new characters, half of them from the irontard islands, no less. As readers, we are already emotionally attached to a set of characters that we have been following since thousand pages, then Martin pretend us to empathize with newcomer in the span of a couple hundred pages. It is a very hard task, and it is bound to fail. Aegon did not came out of nowhere. It is just that no reader gave a flying crap about him and Martin failed to address that.

The freaking Red Vipper had a shorter lifespan, yet as a reader you sympatize with the guy since the first minute: he is going to save our favourite character which we know from a long time (Tyrion), he is going to fight some guy we despise (The monuntain), and right one huge wrong (Elia's death). Aegon in the other hand, barely interacts with "our" Tyrion, has little effect or interaction on the life of any already stablished character, and despite of his introduction in the game of thrones, he is a mostly neutral force unable to generate sympathy or repulsion for his cause in the reader.
 
It's bad, but I can't help but lol at the people in the non-book spoiler thread for the show. They are trying to figure out why certain things happened in the show that were the direct result of bad writing by the writing team. That and they don't get enough exposition in the show to make informed opinions.
 
Ikael said:
The freaking Red Vipper had a shorter lifespan, yet as a reader you sympatize with the guy since the first minute: he is going to save our favourite character which we know from a long time (Tyrion), he is going to fight some guy we despise (The monuntain), and right one huge wrong (Elia's death). Aegon in the other hand, barely interacts with "our" Tyrion, has little effect or interaction on the life of any already stablished character, and despite of his introduction in the game of thrones, he is a mostly neutral force unable to generate sympathy or repulsion for his cause in the reader.
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Aegon does have one thing going for him: he managed to get from Essos to Westeros with a huge army (and elephants!) in about four chapters. Makes Dany look even worse.
 
It will be interesting to see if Aegon ends up being a mad Targaryen or a wise Targaryen.

I get the sense that he will be the former, which should make either a union or a conflict with Daenerys quite fascinating.
 
Trojita said:
It's bad, but I can't help but lol at the people in the non-book spoiler thread for the show. They are trying to figure out why certain things happened in the show that were the direct result of bad writing by the writing team. That and they don't get enough exposition in the show to make informed opinions.
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This is the book thread actually, where people are trying to figure out why certain things happenned in ADWD that were the direct result of bad writing and editing by the GRRM team.
 
BertramCooper said:
It will be interesting to see if Aegon ends up being a mad Targaryen or a wise Targaryen.

I get the sense that he will be the former, which should make either a union or a conflict with Daenerys quite fascinating.
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He's going to be no Targaryen at all. A Blackfyre maybe (which would technically make him more of a Targaryen than Dany).
 
Massa said:
This is the book thread actually, where people are trying to figure out why certain things happenned in ADWD that were the direct result of bad writing and editing by the GRRM team.
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he probably knows that, but he didnt want to leave his comment in the show-thread because he doesnt want to spoil people and led them discuss by themselves, I guess

I do wonder what exactly he meant though
 
People shitting on the iron-born chapters are crazy. Those were the most interesting in AFFC's.

The effects of Quentyn's failure will now be known till the next book. To think the death of Doran Martells son won't have an impact on his politics is insane. Doran has been positioning himself for years, this is a major set back politically and emotionally.

Hotah chapters are also interesting due to the insight he provides to Doran and his kingdom. the guys is also a huge badass.

No POV has been a waste. Maybe Jaimes in ADWD's ...
 
otake said:
People shitting on the iron-born chapters are crazy. Those were the most interesting in AFFC's.

The effects of Quentyn's failure will now be known till the next book. To think the death of Doran Martells son won't have an impact on his politics is insane. Doran has been positioning himself for years, this is a major set back politically and emotionally.

Hotah chapters are also interesting due to the insight he provides to Doran and his kingdom. the guys is also a huge badass.

No POV has been a waste. Maybe Jaimes in ADWD's ...
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I'm sorry but I cannot stand the Damphair chapters.

I don't mind Hotah because he's more of a neutral POV who just shows what's happening and I think the Dorne/Doran stuff is pretty interesting and he gets away with it despite his lack of personality
 
Moff said:
he probably knows that, but he didnt want to leave his comment in the show-thread because he doesnt want to spoil people and led them discuss by themselves, I guess

I do wonder what exactly he meant though
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They keep on trying to figure out what happened with Winterfell and why Bran and Ricken left. Also from this season they were wondering when Sam was trying to send out the ravens.
 
tmdorsey said:
Explain please.
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The first Blackfyre was the great grandchild of both Aegon III and Viserys II, while the legit king who won the throne was just the great grandchild of Viserys II (his parents were Viserys II's son and daughter). Viserys II also only got the throne after Aegon III's only two male children died without leaving heirs. Basically, Daemon Blackfyre was the direct descendant of both Rhaenyra Targaryen's (from the Dance of Dragons) sons who were kings . You can make a case that his blood was more "pure" than what actually became the royal line.

Of course, after years of continued inbreeding perhaps the recognized line has been diluted less than the Blackfyres has at this point in time.
 
Ikael said:
I kinda disagree with this. The problem with Aegon was not planning. It is craftly intervowen with the plot and foreshadowerd (the dragon has 3 heads, the mummer's dragon, yadda, yadda). The problem that I had with Aegon is the same that I had when Martin shuddenly decided in AFFC to introduce one bajillion new characters, half of them from the irontard islands, no less. As readers, we are already emotionally attached to a set of characters that we have been following since thousand pages, then Martin pretend us to empathize with newcomer in the span of a couple hundred pages. It is a very hard task, and it is bound to fail. Aegon did not came out of nowhere. It is just that no reader gave a flying crap about him and Martin failed to address that.

The freaking Red Vipper had a shorter lifespan, yet as a reader you sympatize with the guy since the first minute: he is going to save our favourite character which we know from a long time (Tyrion), he is going to fight some guy we despise (The monuntain), and right one huge wrong (Elia's death). Aegon in the other hand, barely interacts with "our" Tyrion, has little effect or interaction on the life of any already stablished character, and despite of his introduction in the game of thrones, he is a mostly neutral force unable to generate sympathy or repulsion for his cause in the reader.
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It was forshadowed, yes, but not forshadowed nearly enough that anyone who wasn't reading Tower of the Hand on a regular basis could figure out. The mummer's dragon / 3 heads thing is only obvious to me after knowing the outcome.

You're right about the rest. How can Aegon even hope to compete against established characters? Also, I don't like the ironborn because they're willfully stupid pretty much all of the time. They're effective tactically, but when it comes to conquest and governance, they simply have no idea.
 
Trojita said:
I still don't know how a nation could exist that's main economic industry is reaving.
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It's not that they exist, it's how many of them there are. Small islands with little arable land and no valuable natural resources and all of a sudden in AFFC they have a billion ships to conquer the world with.
 
Basileus777 said:
It's not that they exist, it's how many of them there are. Small islands with little arable land and no valuable natural resources and all of a sudden in AFFC they have a billion ships to conquer the world with.
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Stannis had 200 ships at the Battle of the Blackwater. The Iron Islands have a lot of ships but most are fairly small longboats. The Iron Fleet consists of war galleys and there are only about 100.
 
Basileus777 said:
It's not that they exist, it's how many of them there are. Small islands with little arable land and no valuable natural resources and all of a sudden in AFFC they have a billion ships to conquer the world with.
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Imagine if one of the nations in the EU's whole economy was based on stealing and raiding shit. It's ridiculous that they still exist after the continent was conquered.
 
cubicle47b said:
Stannis had 200 ships at the Battle of the Blackwater. The Iron Islands have a lot of ships but most are fairly small longboats. The Iron Fleet consists of war galleys and there are only about 100.
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They can match Volantis (probably) with a part of their fleet still dicking about of the coast of the Reach.
 
Dysun said:
Well the Iron Islanders weren't really reaving after Balon's rebellion right? They 'We do Sow' for now during this time period?
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They are a poor backwater kingdom that does some mining, a little farming, and a lot of fishing. I assume there's still a fair amount of reaving, just not outright rebellion.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
It was forshadowed, yes, but not forshadowed nearly enough that anyone who wasn't reading Tower of the Hand on a regular basis could figure out. The mummer's dragon / 3 heads thing is only obvious to me after knowing the outcome.

You're right about the rest. How can Aegon even hope to compete against established characters? Also, I don't like the ironborn because they're willfully stupid pretty much all of the time. They're effective tactically, but when it comes to conquest and governance, they simply have no idea.
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I don't think Aegon as a character will be competing against established characters. His potential interaction with established characters seems more important than competing, and we ultimately don't know which direction that will go in. Will he marry Sansa, will he declare war against Dany, will he have Myrcella killed...we don't know. Based on what I've seen from TWOW I get the impression his story will be very interesting, but the again the southern war/politics have always been interesting. I doubt many people will become Aegon fanboys if that's the question, but overall he seems like an object to advance a certain plot.

Personally I wish Dany landed in Westeros with the Golden Company instead of him, but that's not to say I don't look forward to learning more about him.
 
Dysun said:
Well the Iron Islanders weren't really reaving after Balon's rebellion right? They 'We do Sow' during this time period?
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They weren't really reaving for about 300 years. The Targs gave them permission to reave in Essos, but they were forbidden to reave in Westeros, lest their Iron Islands happen to somehow melt into the sea in a pool of dragonfire. Balon's rebellion tried to change that at a period in which the Seven Kingdoms were at their weakest, but he failed.
 
Trojita said:
I still don't know how a nation could exist that's main economic industry is reaving.
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Step 1) Steal Peasants
Step 2) Yell at Peasants to mine and grow food
Step 3) Beat up the Peasants who don't
Step 4) Return to Step 1

Its implied the Iron Islands have Iron (Its in the god damn name), just that the people on the Islands only used slaves to mine it.
 
I have a feeling that Patchface is going to be right in the end.

The North shall be under the sea. I'm serious, that's my prediction. Arm of Dorne, Valyria, see the pattern?! The only way to stop the Others from advancing after they fuck up the North is Bran and the Children undertaking a last ditch effort to save Westeros.

Dany cleans up the remaining Others at the Trident, behind her lay the smoking ashes of the south as war and winter have decimated it.
 
Nah, what's going to happen is they have their wars and then Dany or someone wins but they realise that the whole of Westeros is destroyed so everyone leaves (The Iron Throne in hand) and they all take over one of the Free Cities!! /Sarcasm
 
ahoyhoy said:
They weren't really reaving for about 300 years. The Targs gave them permission to reave in Essos, but they were forbidden to reave in Westeros, lest their Iron Islands happen to somehow melt into the sea in a pool of dragonfire. Balon's rebellion tried to change that at a period in which the Seven Kingdoms were at their weakest, but he failed.
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Well, they were raiding the shores of Westeros during the Sword Sworn ( and up north in Mystery Knight ), under Dagon Greyjoy. This uprising mirrors Balon's a bit since the realm was weak at that time, having to deal with Blackfyre pretenders and The Great Spring Sickness. Still failed to have a lasting impact though, I guess.
 
Two years for a quarter of the book.. ffs... I know it's not linear or anything, he could be done in a year (lol), but still...
 
TCRS said:
Two years for a quarter of the book.. ffs... I know it's not linear or anything, he could be done in a year (lol), but still...
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He did take a rather lengthy break after ADWD and has been doing other writing on other projects, when he gets his head down and actually works full time on TWOW I'd expect much faster progress.
 
Randdalf said:
He did take a rather lengthy break after ADWD and has been doing other writing on other projects, when he gets his head down and actually works full time on TWOW I'd expect much faster progress.
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Sure. If you don't count the conventions. The tv show, the HBO deal he just signed, the lore books and various other side projects he does, I'm sure he'll be full-time writing in no time.
 
CrunchyB said:
Of course he had already written the Winterfell and (maybe) the Meereen conclusions before even starting on TWOW.

He is going nowhere, slowly.
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Yea, but by the time he writes Crossroads of Twilight he should be back into full swing and ready to wrap things up. I'm optimistic.
 
Steelyuhas said:
To be fair, he wasn't actively writing TWOW as his priority until the beginning of this this year.
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Taking a year and a half off isn't much of an excuse. He's not the only author that has other responsibilities.

Dysun said:
The glacial pace is right on track considering he had a good amount of material cut out of ADWD to begin with
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I doubt that material was really all that substantial. It certainly wasn't the 100k words a quarter of the book would be.

TestOfTide said:
Martin is just looking for new ways to troll his readers.

All that is left is for him to start blurting out spoilers from ADoS Right before he publishes TWoW.
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The HBO show will have spoiled it for us by then.
 
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