So why does piracy and used games NOT hurt devs?

Why should we believe that piracy significantly harms developers without any evidence of that happening?

Can anyone provide any evidence of piracy impacting sales?

it's basically impossible to calculate, but i think it's arguably more likely to cost developers something than to not. it's plausible that it doesn't cost them anything. it's plausible that it creates more sales than it takes away. but I think it's *most* plausible that it costs them money.
 
Because they developed the game? Either way, I am not following your logic on how piracy is worse for developers.

And they got paid for the game purchase initially. If I want to trade a game or give it away, it's my perogative to do so. The developer or publisher should not be entitled to a penny of that.

We bitch so much about entitled gamers, but now the shoe is on the other foot and publishers/developers are the entitled ones. The game industry should not have special rules applied to them while other media survives and thrives just fine with a second hand market. And just about every other consumer good to boot.

I have bought used toys off ebay for my children. Bandai or Hasbro didn't get any money from me for those toys. Should they?
 
Why should we believe that piracy significantly harms developers without any evidence of that happening?

Can anyone provide any evidence of piracy impacting sales?

It's impossible to provide the evidence for this, because every single individuals reason to pirate could differ. It's possible they would not pay for a game if it wasn't possible to pirate, it's possible they wouldn't have the means to pay for the game, it's possible a pirated game creates sales. And the opposite.
 
I guess the theory is, that if devs and publishers are getting all the revenue possible, then they can stay in business and keep making the games you love?
I don't tend to give people what they haven't earned. Once again we return to the idea of entitlement.
 
And they got paid for the game purchase initially. If I want to trade a game or give it away, it's my perogative to do so. The developer or publisher should not be entitled to a penny of that.

We bitch so much about entitled gamers, but now the shoe is on the other foot and publishers/developers are the entitled ones. The game industry should not have special rules applied to them while other media survives and thrives just fine with a second hand market. And just about every other consumer good to boot.

I have bought used toys off ebay for my children. Bandai or Hasbro didn't get any money from me for those toys. Should they?

Btw all of you mentioning books...Since when could you sell Ebooks?
 
Because they developed the game? Either way, I am not following your logic on how piracy is worse for developers.

They already got paid for making the game. Do you really think they're getting anything else for sales of their games? A potential bonus maybe, yeah. Why should you care about their bonus?
 
Because they developed the game? Either way, I am not following your logic on how piracy is worse for developers.
And they got paid when that copy was sold. Why should they be entitled to any money that ever exchanged hands when a disc that has there game on it is in the trade? If I trade it straight up for another game should both developers see money from that? What about when friends come over and enjoy Rock Band with me, should I charge them and send the money to the developer? What about when my wife plays CoD that I purchased and played on my account, should we buy two so she can play on her account?

What about when I purchase a DVD and my Dad visits and I let him watch it, should I charge him and send the money to the studio? Or the books I loaned to a friend, should I be sending money to the author? Why are videogames so special that all I can do is license the right to use it on one account?
 
Prove it.

Edit: dp. Sorry!

I think it's much more absurd to claim that not one single person who ever pirated a game wouldn't have bought one if they couldn't pirate.

And unless the pirate spends their money that they saved by pirating on a game by the same developer, then it hurts the developer of the game they saved money by pirating.

Btw all of you mentioning books...Since when could you sell Ebooks?

that's irrelevant. you can't sell digital goods second hand. so no one gets any money from any secondary sales.

Why are they entitled to it? When you pirate a game, you pirate it from an external source. When you buy a used game, you are getting it from an external source. I'm seriously not seeing the difference here outside of the fact that in one situation money has changed hands.
that has no bearing on whether the dev is entitled to any money or not. it is well established that the person who made the product isn't entitled to any money from any secondary market sales. that's not up for debate. you can say you think it *should* be different, but that's the way it is. it is also established that creators are entitled to get money from people who distribute pirated or counterfeit copies of their games/films/books/etc.

that's the way things are. your failure to comprehend that doesn't change reality.
 
They already got paid for making the game. Do you really think they're getting anything else for sales of their games? A potential bonus maybe, yeah. Why should you care about their bonus?

Because I can see why it sucks for them. When a used game is sold that customer was almost a guaranteed buyer for the new version of the game. The usually miniscule difference in cost wouldn't be enough to dissuade that customer from making the purchase. When I go to gamestop and pick up a new game someone at gamestop always tries to sell me a used version for $5 cheaper. You save $5 dollars and developer losses all the money for the game. Honestly, without used games consoles would have far better sales. You would be able to enjoy steam quality sales since developers would be more secure about their profits. DRM hasn't hurt PC gaming. It helped it thrive.
 
Why should we believe that piracy significantly harms developers without any evidence of that happening?

Can anyone provide any evidence of piracy impacting sales?

Agreed, I always hear that it hurts them but where is the evidence, all I'm seeing is the assumption that piracy equals a lost sale, which I'm sure isn't always the case.
 
I think it's much more absurd to claim that not one single person who ever pirated a game wouldn't have bought one if they couldn't pirate.

And unless the pirate spends their money that they saved by pirating on a game by the same developer, then it hurts the developer of the game they saved money by pirating.



that's irrelevant. you can't sell digital goods second hand. so no one gets any money from any secondary sales.

And now games are becoming digital goods. Just because they come on a disk initially doesn't mean they aren't tied to accounts...
 
Because I can see why it sucks for them. When a used game is sold that customer was almost a guaranteed buyer for the new version of the game. The usually miniscule difference in cost wouldn't be enough to dissuade that customer from making the purchase. When I go to gamestop and pick up a new game someone at gamestop always tries to sell me a used version for $5 cheaper. You save $5 dollars and developer losses all the money for the game. Honestly, without used games consoles would have far better sales. You would be able to enjoy steam quality sales since developers would be more secure about their profits. DRM hasn't hurt PC gaming. It helped it thrive.

Oh my god

Everything about the bolded is incredibly wrong.
 
They have the same effect on the developer's bottom line — the original artist gets paid for neither copy. They are comparable in that sense.

Errr, I think you meant to say they were only paid once for a copy that is resold as used. Which has been standard for decades.
 
that has no bearing on whether the dev is entitled to any money or not. it is well established that the person who made the product isn't entitled to any money from any secondary market sales. that's not up for debate. you can say you think it *should* be different, but that's the way it is. it is also established that creators are entitled to get money from people who distribute pirated or counterfeit copies of their games/films/books/etc.

that's the way things are. your failure to comprehend that doesn't change reality.

From all that your argument could be summed up: "You are wrong and I am right, that's the way things are." You have not given me a credible argument why developers should be entitled money from pirated copies and not used games.

Oh my god

Everything about the bolded is incredibly wrong.

How so? Are you seriously denying the fact that since Steam doesn't allow the reselling of games the profit margins for companies and their sales has increased?
 
And now games are becoming digital goods. Just because they come on a disk initially doesn't mean they aren't tied to accounts...

games have been digital goods for ages. that I can't sell my steam games doesn't magically make used sales harmful to content creators. they still aren't entitled to the money from the games I can and continue to sell used.

From all that your argument could be summed up: "You are wrong and I am right, that's the way things are." You have not given me a credible argument why developers should be entitled money from pirated copies and not used games.
it doesn't change the fact that legally developers are currently entitled to money from pirates, and that legally they are not entitled to money from used sales. whether you like it or not, the facts are the facts. i'm not giving you my opinion here. i'm not saying the way things are makes sense. i'm telling you that's the way it is. it's not an opinion. it's well established fact with numerous legal precedents.
 
Because I can see why it sucks for them. When a used game is sold that customer was almost a guaranteed buyer for the new version of the game. The usually miniscule difference in cost wouldn't be enough to dissuade that customer from making the purchase. When I go to gamestop and pick up a new game someone at gamestop always tries to sell me a used version for $5 cheaper. You save $5 dollars and developer losses all the money for the game. Honestly, without used games consoles would have far better sales. You would be able to enjoy steam quality sales since developers would be more secure about their profits. DRM hasn't hurt PC gaming. It helped it thrive.

Yeah because xbox games on demands and PSN pricing is so awesome. They had 8 years to convince us they could do right by digital pricing and failed. There is no used sale of xbox game on demand yet the pricing is higher than retail 90% of the time. There are games that years old still at MSRP.
 
Because I can see why it sucks for them. When a used game is sold that customer was almost a guaranteed buyer for the new version of the game. The usually miniscule difference in cost wouldn't be enough to dissuade that customer from making the purchase. When I go to gamestop and pick up a new game someone at gamestop always tries to sell me a used version for $5 cheaper. You save $5 dollars and developer losses all the money for the game. Honestly, without used games consoles would have far better sales. You would be able to enjoy steam quality sales since developers would be more secure about their profits. DRM hasn't hurt PC gaming. It helped it thrive.

But you're not limited to gamestop. You have the option not to buy from them and you can get better deals on eBay, Amazon and even on gaf.

Again, why would I care for their bonus? As a consumer, I only care about what's best for me. It's true that I may want them to develop sequels, but that's not the case with all games. There are games I would never see myself buying new because I may not be interested in paying full price for it, but if I find it used for a reasonable price I'm willing to pay then I'll buy that title. It may or may not make me a potential buyer of future titles for that franchise/ip. They'd be losing me if I just choose to ignore their title altogether.

For example, I recently bought Bioshock and Bioshock 2 used. I wasn't interested in the franchise previously but after seeing some impressions of Bioshock Infinite I decided to dive in. I bought each for $7 used as opposed to $20 new each. I ended up enjoying them and will be buying the third installment new soon.
 
Btw all of you mentioning books...Since when could you sell Ebooks?

You can lend ebooks at least. You can't sell, but then again the physical market still exists and allows consumers the choice to buy and sell physical books just fine. If Microsoft did that, we wouldn't have a problem with what the Xbox One is proposing, as that's the very model that exists right now.

Also, books are a LOT cheaper than games. A $60 game you can't resell vs. a $8 or $15 book is a big difference to me. You wouldn't make much back even if you could resell something like that anyway.
 
Piracy:
People who pirate, pirate tons of games. They probably wouldn't buy these games anyways.
Of course piracy is generally not good, since some of those might have translated to some sales.
How to beat piracy: make getting your game legitimately easier than it is to pirate it.
  • Price it right, with price drops as demand goes down.
  • Remove DRM that makes the experience worse for legitimate buyers.
  • Ensure proper distribution of your game, ship enough copies, make it available on multiple platforms, etc.

Used Games:
Used games exist because someone bought a new game originally. The availability of a used games market lowers the price of new games, as games have a salvage price. No used games markets translates into less new game sales as games become more expensive.
How to counteract used games sales: make a game worth keeping, encourage to buy new
  • Make games replayable, so that people want to keep them
  • Include enough content that people don't sell their game right after beating it
  • Design nice cases, artbooks, etc that makes people want to buy a new copy
  • Drop prices regularly so that used games are not so much cheaper

What it means for me:
  • I do not buy (PC) games with restrictive DRM.
  • I only buy games I cannot resell when they are very cheap (steam sales) and when they are eternally available on my account (upgrade PC, library comes with me)
  • I stopped buying Wiiware, XBLA, VC games a long time ago.
  • I will not be buying a WiiU or 3DS till accounts become platform independent.
  • I will never buy a XB1 (or PS4 if applicable)
 
Because I can see why it sucks for them. When a used game is sold that customer was almost a guaranteed buyer for the new version of the game. The usually miniscule difference in cost wouldn't be enough to dissuade that customer from making the purchase. When I go to gamestop and pick up a new game someone at gamestop always tries to sell me a used version for $5 cheaper. You save $5 dollars and developer losses all the money for the game. Honestly, without used games consoles would have far better sales. You would be able to enjoy steam quality sales since developers would be more secure about their profits. DRM hasn't hurt PC gaming. It helped it thrive.
And to buy that used game some other player had to give it up. There is one less person playing the game. At some point it was purchased new and the developer got that money. The person who bought it new did so knowing they could sell it later and recoup part of there money, possibly putting that money forwards another new game. If they can't sell the game they bought it is very possible they would never have purchased it. Now there is one more new copy sitting on the shelf. The person who bought it used might decide they don't want to buy it, especially since they are apparently frugal enough to save $5 buying it used. So that copy still sits, waiting for the person to buy it.

Maybe this is where the pirate who already values games at $0 decides it is time to spend $60, right?
 
it's basically impossible to calculate, but i think it's arguably more likely to cost developers something than to not. it's plausible that it doesn't cost them anything. it's plausible that it creates more sales than it takes away. but I think it's *most* plausible that it costs them money.

The only thing we have evidence of is that the music industry, initially at least, took a small chunk of profit with P2P. Beyond that we really don't know, industry never shares its numbers that would actually shed light on the subject. Personally, I'd wager since the introduction of DLC and DD services we are looking at a % that probably wouldn't effect the bottom line that much, for PC anyways. As for consoles, I'm not sure a case could be made that it makes a difference one way or the other.
 
Piracy:
People who pirate, pirate tons of games. They probably wouldn't buy these games anyways.
Of course piracy is generally not good, since some of those might have translated to some sales.
How to beat piracy: make getting your game legitimately easier than it is to pirate it.
Price it right, with price drops as demand goes down.
Remove DRM that makes the experience worse for legitimate buyers.
Ensure proper distribution of your game, ship enough copies, make it available on multiple platforms, etc.

Used Games:
Used games exist because someone bought a new game originally. The availability of a used games market lowers the price of new games, as games have a salvage price. No used games markets translates into less new game sales as games become more expensive.
How to counteract used games sales: make a game worth keeping, encourage to buy new
  • Make games replayable, so that people want to keep them
  • Include enough content that people don't sell their game right after beating it
  • Design nice cases, artbooks, etc that makes people want to buy a new copy
  • Drop prices regularly so that used games are not so much cheaper

^ Straight talk right here.
 
Because I can see why it sucks for them. When a used game is sold that customer was almost a guaranteed buyer for the new version of the game. The usually miniscule difference in cost wouldn't be enough to dissuade that customer from making the purchase. When I go to gamestop and pick up a new game someone at gamestop always tries to sell me a used version for $5 cheaper. You save $5 dollars and developer losses all the money for the game. Honestly, without used games consoles would have far better sales. You would be able to enjoy steam quality sales since developers would be more secure about their profits. DRM hasn't hurt PC gaming. It helped it thrive.

Whenever I shop at Gamestop it's not used they are pushing on me, it's preorders "We have exlusive DLC!"

What makes you think that we will start having sales? Steam? PC is an open platform and you don't have to use Steam.
 
Piracy:
People who pirate, pirate tons of games. They probably wouldn't buy these games anyways.
Of course piracy is generally not good, since some of those might have translated to some sales.
How to beat piracy: make getting your game legitimately easier than it is to pirate it.
  • Price it right, with price drops as demand goes down.
  • Remove DRM that makes the experience worse for legitimate buyers.
  • Ensure proper distribution of your game, ship enough copies, make it available on multiple platforms, etc.

Used Games:
Used games exist because someone bought a new game originally. The availability of a used games market lowers the price of new games, as games have a salvage price. No used games markets translates into less new game sales as games become more expensive.
How to counteract used games sales: make a game worth keeping, encourage to buy new

  • [*]Make games replayable, so that people want to keep them
    [*]Include enough content that people don't sell their game right after beating it
    [*]Design nice cases, artbooks, etc that makes people want to buy a new copy
  • Drop prices regularly so that used games are not so much cheaper
I find it hilarious how true this is for my SNES and Genesis games. I can play them forever.
 
It's human nature for people to pick up free things because they're free, regardless of whether or not they actually need them, or have any intention of using them. If it catches their fancy, they'll take one. No reason to assume that this behavior's any less true when we're talking about pirated games instead of useless tsotchkes.

So you think if people only have the option to pay for something, they are just as likely to pay for a tsotchke ( a word which has the connotation of being worthless) as they are likely to pay for something that is perceived to have value?
 
Whenever I shop at Gamestop it's not used they are pushing on me, it's preorders "We have exlusive DLC!"

What makes you think that we will start having sales? Steam? PC is an open platform and you don't have to use Steam.

Steam has saved me far more money than consoles and I never had to buy games used. Developers always got money for my purchases.
 
Btw all of you mentioning books...Since when could you sell Ebooks?

That comparison isnt applicable. E-books is a service you choose to use vs the cost of the option that lets you sell your books. You cant compare a market with the option to use the 2nd hand market vs a hypothetical one that has no ability for liquidity on the customers side, in terms of that particular market. Also, E-books was their way of offering more incentive to use e-books instead of used books, and this is another reason why the 2nd hand market helps industry, it forces competition and innovation.
 
Kinda don't like how this thread asks the question, putting piracy and used game sales in the same category. They're not the same at all, despite what that Penny Arcade guy went on about.
 
They have the same effect on the developer's bottom line — the original artist gets paid for neither copy. They are comparable in that sense.

In one case, they are supposed to be paid for that copy. In the other, they are not.
 
Steam has saved me far more money than consoles and I never had to buy games used. Developers always got money for my purchases.

What makes you think that translates to how Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo will run their digital shops? At least Pc is open and I can go to Amazon/Gamestop/Steam/Origin.
 
Honestly, I would be much happier if developers found a way for people to share games among each other, but prevent retailers from distributing used titles. If Microsoft runs a virtual used game market where they can get a cut of a game that I can put on auction I think it would be a much more fair system.
 
Yeah because xbox games on demands and PSN pricing is so awesome. They had 8 years to convince us they could do right by digital pricing and failed. There is no used sale of xbox game on demand yet the pricing is higher than retail 90% of the time. There are games that years old still at MSRP.

Watch apple smack ignore this post.
 
Unless you're an independent developer or part of a very nice development/publisher company, you're most likely not getting a cent of the profits from sales. Most developers who work at "mainstream" companies like EA only get a regular paycheck. Maybe, maybe some of the "big" names get a cut or a % share of sales.

The people who get the profit from the sales are the executives, the board, the companies themselves, etc.

If a game gets really, really popular, they might keep the development team on for another game, so I guess you could argue that you are helping the people who made the game, but since that is an unknown variable (There might be copyright issues involved, they might have already contracted another team of people, sold the IP, only rented the IP for a period of time, and so forth.) it shouldn't be a factor.

I suppose there might be an increased chance that the makers get to make more games if it's successful, but the definition of "success" is up to the publisher, so, like I said, it shouldn't be a factor. You can't buy a game made by these companies and think that you are helping the developers.

I don't know how many independent developers are in a situation where they can get profits from sales/royalties, but when even Kickstarter projects seem to have obligations to publishers, I'd assume that there aren't as many as I'd imagine.

Piracy, renting games and buying used games is not harming the game development industry as much as the industry is hurting itself. Not even remotely close. If I were to put it in %, I'd say piracy, renting game used games (With all the indirect effects such as people learning about new IP's, developers, genres, etc.) is hurting the industry by 5%, while the industry is hurting itself 90%.

They are the ones who are making games with ridiculous budgets when games have proven that it's not really necessary -- you can make games with a reasonable budget and earn money.

Studios hire so many developers, and keeps hiring so many developers, while constantly kicking people out whenever something is done -- they kick out people who have learned to work together, people with experience -- only to hire a new batch of people who needs to learn how to work together. This leads to an extremely inefficient workflow.

Say a publisher house hires 50 people to make a game. It becomes a hit, they fire the people, and hire 50 people again to make a followup. Or they fire 25 people, and hire 25 new people. This probably leads to a lot of tension (It's a creative process.).
It's expected to be bigger, of course, and the new people have to work within an even stricter set of rules and guidelines on the gameworld/design established by the previous team/people/game, not to mention the workflow established by the previous crew, in addition to the standard rules/guidelines by the company. They also need to learn how to work together, on a bigger project, so, when the going gets tough, the publisher hires more people. They are now 100.

And this cycle keeps going, probably even across different development teams and games. After just a few games, they have massively inefficient teams, which results in a massive budget and little work to show for it.

Then you have to account for all the people who leave, which is probably a lot since game development is still a somewhat creative process, and involves a lot of decision making. This is probably greatly amplified by the fact that the bigger companies hire new people all the time.

Other significant variables: what is popular in gaming, what investors might consider to be popular. Mainstream and semi-mainstream gaming development might be inefficient nowadays, but it's still expensive at a base level -- it seems like it's necessary to get funding from, most likely, people from other industries, and grant them a lot of control, so I'm not sure if it's possible to avoid the inefficient workflow unless you're really careful with who you "get" funding from.

(My assumptions about the subject based on what developers have said; my overall impressions.)

When you consider how Valve has been doing, it's pretty evident that the regular publisher model is completely wrong. Even before Steam, they were seemingly doing very well. People do not seem to leave all the time either. I mean, they were considering doing a console, and researching some unique tech, so they are probably filthy rich.
 
How so? Are you seriously denying the fact that since Steam doesn't allow the reselling of games the profit margins for companies and their sales has increased?

Steam is part of an open PC market, while consoles are closed platforms. Steam has competition. Microsoft's digital marketplace does not, since it is their console. Steam has to compete with Green Man Gaming, Gamestop Digital Downloads, Gamefly, Origin, Desura, GotGames, and many more. Many of those places even sell Steam keys cheaper than Steam sells the game.

If Microsoft was going to follow in Steam's footsteps, the Gears of War games wouldn't be more on XBox Live right now than you can find them in a store. I think someone said last week they were $30 each for 1 and 2 while you can find them cheaper in stores. I haven't checked. Either way, prices would be better on Games on Demand for games...that would be the proof Microsoft was going to change in the digital age and offer Steam-like discounts to consumers of digital goods.

So far, those types of sales are incredibly rare despite most games being digital on PSN or XBL. Compare this to Steam where huge discounts and sales happen every single day and compound on the weekend.
 
Honestly, I would be much happier if developers found a way for people to share games among each other, but prevent retailers from distributing used titles. If Microsoft runs a virtual used game market where they can get a cut of a game that I can put on auction I think it would be a much more fair system.

Who's getting a cut of the share? Hint: It will be people in suits.
 
So you think if people only have the option to pay for something, they are just as likely to pay for a tsotchke ( a word which has the connotation of being worthless) as they are likely to pay for something that is perceived to have value?

No, I think that when people don't have to pay for the things they're picking up, they're going to pick up more things than they would otherwise - they already do that with otherwise worthless junk, so games would be no different. Which feeds into the "pirates will pirate far more games than they would ever legitimately be able to purchase, leading to grossly inflated estimates of 'lost sales' by publishers" argument. I thought my earlier post was pretty clear on that.
 
Used games are just a symptom of every new game having to cost $60. If publishers came up with a variable pricing scheme for games which made them more affordable to the consumer, then more people would buy new. In my view the publishers have created this problem themselves.
 
You realize right that "xbox on demand" was always restricted by retail prices? You can't just price stuff whatever you want in this industry.

Ok, now explain why prices of xbla games went up instead of down, over the course of this gen, on average? They didn't have retail versions. They cost less to make than steam games that get heavily discounted. They rarely went on sale. They had no second hand market.

Thats every single one of your projections already demonstrably violated.
 
Better them than retailers. At least the money goes to people that actually invest in games.

Really?

So instead of having a consumer friendly option, you would rather suits get more money than they already have?

Edit: It will go straight into their bank accounts. It doesn't necessarily guarantee that they will invest in more games.
 
Yeah because xbox games on demands and PSN pricing is so awesome. They had 8 years to convince us they could do right by digital pricing and failed. There is no used sale of xbox game on demand yet the pricing is higher than retail 90% of the time. There are games that years old still at MSRP.

Exactly. There is zero reason to think this will ever change because we have no proof. Going by current evidence only, the conclusion can be made that digital pricing will not get better on the consoles next gen either.
 
Steam has saved me far more money than consoles and I never had to buy games used. Developers always got money for my purchases.
And this has been my favorite defense. That the same people who are trying to get more money from all consumers by taking away all consumer rights they can are then going to pass the savings on to you, the consumer.

Do you really believe that the same people crying about not getting enough money now are going to get too much money, forcing them to give it back? Why would they decide to save you money when they made it clear they want all the money?

If anything, I see this ending with the death of consoles, or the end of PC games. If they make all their money on consoles why would they develop a PC port that will get pirated or get sold extremely cheap? They can just keep all games on closed consoles that don't allow for resale and guarantee that all copies that are played ended with them getting their fair share of money.
 
They already got paid for making the game. Do you really think they're getting anything else for sales of their games? A potential bonus maybe, yeah. Why should you care about their bonus?

This is head-slappingly backwards from a developer point of view. I don't even know where to begin.

Developers want votes for their product. Publishers want to see those votes. Those sales are the votes. It helps them not get shut down, to receive bonuses, promotions, and to help their development teams and companies in general get bigger investments with a larger share of creative ownership.
 
I've read through this thread, and it's quite interesting to see lots of anti-used arguments forget that trading IN games is part of the economic model, not just getting new games cheaply. I'll give some examples of some purchases I made last year:

Month One
- Buy Just Cause 2 (used)
- Buy Alpha Protocol (new, discounted)
- Buy Dragon Age 2 (new, discounted)
- Buy Dungeon Siege III (used)
------
Total Cost to me: $45.00 AUD

Month Two
- Trade in Just Cause 2, Alpha Protocol, Dragon Age 2, Dungeon Siege III and get $25 bucks credit.
- Buy Bioshock Infinite (new, day one, full price minus $25)
-------
Total Cost to me: $60.00 AUD

Chance of me buying Bioshock Infinite at 80 bucks = Zero.
Chance of me buying Bioshock Infinite by trading in only discounted games = maybe 50%

It isn't just reduced prices that trading in stores represents to me, its the offloading of the same discounted discs I picked up on the cheap to defray the inflated cost of Australian game prices.

New games I partially funded through trading:

- Call of Duty Black Ops II
- Zombi U
- Bioshock Infinite
- Far Cry III

I doubt I would have bought those games, and in some cases, bought DLC for them, had I not been able to trade them down to a value level I consider acceptable. 80-100 bucks for games like these is fundamentally, not how I think about games. There's more value in dumping 80 bucks into App Store in-app purchases across six titles, no diggity.
 
You realize right that "xbox on demand" was always restricted by retail prices? You can't just price stuff whatever you want in this industry.

Which adds even more credence to the idea that you cant trust publishers in the console market, w/o the 2nd hand market. Your theories on how getting rid of used games would help the industry is based on the faith that Ms/Sony/Nintendo+publishers could and would properly adjust console game price values, the same way the 2nd hand market does. There is no evidence they would ever do that in the console space, hell you see with Uplay, Origin, and GWL(lol) it isn't even the case on the PC.

The AAA involved companies are not very healthy(beyond activision thanks mainly to COD and Blizzard) and even then, we have seen Acti be responsible for at the very least crowding out the market. They have never shown themselves to be consumer friendly this generation, at all, so this weird belief that all the sudden the AAA companies can handle value decisions on their own is "pie in the sky" thinking.
 
And this has been my favorite defense. That the same people who are trying to get more money from all consumers by taking away all consumer rights they can are then going to pass the savings on to you, the consumer.

Do you really believe that the same people crying about not getting enough money now are going to get too much money, forcing them to give it back? Why would they decide to save you money when they made it clear they want all the money?

If anything, I see this ending with the death of consoles, or the end of PC games. If they make all their money on consoles why would they develop a PC port that will get pirated or get sold extremely cheap? They can just keep all games on closed consoles that don't allow for resale and guarantee that all copies that are played ended with them getting their fair share of money.

So then you agree that if we get rid of used games it can really benefit developers?
 
No, I think that when people don't have to pay for the things they're picking up, they're going to pick up more things than they would otherwise - they already do that with otherwise worthless junk, so games would be no different. Which feeds into the "pirates will pirate far more games than they would ever legitimately be able to purchase, leading to grossly inflated estimates of 'lost sales' by publishers" argument. I thought my earlier post was pretty clear on that.



Yeah yeah yeah. Grossly inflated lost sales by publishers. You keep mentioning them even though they have jack to do with what I was asking about in the first place.
 
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