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He's just waiting for them to reveal what the trophies look like, what really matters!
oh, I know, I got the experience at UFGT last year lol
It's all technically above the belt and a lot of groups do that. I had some no names from Ohio taunting me in the first round of pools!
I figured that's just how tourneys go and that that is what people meant by the difference between playing at home or at locals vs. at a tourney. Think of it this way: if you make it to top 8 and you're not from the area and you're playing someone local, it's gonna be much worse than CORN guys yelling behind you.
That would be a huge let down and just fuck up all the hype building up to Evo this year. It would still be fun, but it wouldn't be the real deal (if he is still on top by then.) Is he getting that stressed out?
Sure, but it was possible to have a comeback without a mechanic like xfactor. I meant it was just fine in that regard specifically.
crimsonspider89
Banned
Marvel 2 didn't have the high damage which is what helps make Marvel 3 more balanced. Same for the OTGs. Marvel 2 had how many playable characters out of what again?
Marvel 3 you could argue for about half the cast being playable in some form.
Marvel 3 you could argue for about half the cast being playable in some form.
call_kotaku
Member
If the Tekken community wants 3/5, tournaments should just stream only top 3. If they want it so badly then let them, especially if the turnout is low and you can run a long tournament, but nobody wants to watch one-sided beatdowns for 3 hours on Sunday and it just makes outsiders pessimistic about the game. Tekken is a hard game and has a lot going against it in terms of attracting new players, there's no reason to make it seem tedious and boring on top of that.
It's not the issues they're complaining about, it's that people don't realize that if they got what they wanted via twitter whining, it sets a precedent that TOs can't allow. Same with changing Knives' pool, because the issue isn't whether or not Knives had special circumstances (he doesn't, but hypothetically), it's that if Keits allows it he'll have to do it for everyone who asks. If Injustice finals are at 9am, say that it's early but you'll show up anyways because of how much you like the game, and bring all the enthusiasm you can, because that means other TOs will make sure the game gets prime time at their event. Complaining about it and accusing people of trying to sabotage the game practically ensures that TOs won't change their minds, because it just opens up "childish whining" as a legitimate method of getting people to do what you want.
It's one of the things that bothered me about the Injustice at EVO thing, because so much of the advocacy I saw was "this game is better than marvel" or "why's SFxT there if this game isn't?" or "this game has more players than Persona". Say how much you like the game and that you'll make sure there's going to be a tournament for it at EVO, whether or not EVO makes it the 9th game, and you're practically guaranteed main stage time. Making it seem like a bunch of entitled kids got their game into a tourney via moneyhatting isn't the ideal outcome, imo.
It's not the issues they're complaining about, it's that people don't realize that if they got what they wanted via twitter whining, it sets a precedent that TOs can't allow. Same with changing Knives' pool, because the issue isn't whether or not Knives had special circumstances (he doesn't, but hypothetically), it's that if Keits allows it he'll have to do it for everyone who asks. If Injustice finals are at 9am, say that it's early but you'll show up anyways because of how much you like the game, and bring all the enthusiasm you can, because that means other TOs will make sure the game gets prime time at their event. Complaining about it and accusing people of trying to sabotage the game practically ensures that TOs won't change their minds, because it just opens up "childish whining" as a legitimate method of getting people to do what you want.
It's one of the things that bothered me about the Injustice at EVO thing, because so much of the advocacy I saw was "this game is better than marvel" or "why's SFxT there if this game isn't?" or "this game has more players than Persona". Say how much you like the game and that you'll make sure there's going to be a tournament for it at EVO, whether or not EVO makes it the 9th game, and you're practically guaranteed main stage time. Making it seem like a bunch of entitled kids got their game into a tourney via moneyhatting isn't the ideal outcome, imo.
I think it's more fun for most people if the winner isn't determined until the end of the match. That's why the most hype Marvel 2 moments are when Justin 1v3s with Cyclops whereas in Marvel 3, that's just another tournament.
Injustice has the moneyhats though.
I really like the idea of a huge, ridiculous championship belt for this event but that might be expensive.
toddhunter
Member
Yep, well said.
SloaneRisette
Member
Oh, yeah, when I went to Clockw0rk's Fight For Youth tournament last year, in my first match since I was one of the first matches (not on stream) called, I had ETR shouting behind me trying to be hype while I was getting bodied. It frustrated me (due to it being my first big tournament), but I figure that wasn't nearly as bad as what CORN could dish out.
Karsticles
Member
In Marvel 2, if your first two characters got stomped you just lost. People learned to live with that because it's a very fun game, but that doesn't mean that, as a fun game, all of its design decisions were good. Marvel 2 does some good things, and it does some bad things. Same with Marvel 3. I think X-Factor is a good thing, but I don't think that Marvel 3's general damage output is. I think there are probably better alternatives to X-Factor as well, but it is a step in the right direction for the type of game Marvel is.
Beast Legacy
Member
You're letting stream monster spam dictate your opinion of an entire community. Those people can never be satisfied and are just looking for fights. MK community does show up for events and plays their game. What happened at UFGT was unfortunate but MK community and even NRS devs understood the circumstances.
Marvel 2 comebacks were hype because it was hard to make one and when someone made one, it required a lot of clutch decisions.
In marvel 3, once vergil pops xfc, hes basically guaranteed to kill at least 1 character. I'm more surprised when Vergil doesn't kill anyone. It's not fun playing against xfc and its not fun watching xfc comebacks.
In marvel 3, once vergil pops xfc, hes basically guaranteed to kill at least 1 character. I'm more surprised when Vergil doesn't kill anyone. It's not fun playing against xfc and its not fun watching xfc comebacks.
toddhunter
Member
To be fair, I wouldn't give up against Yipes in a tournament either.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
The best thing about x-factor is how it affects team composition. Marvel 2 teams were extremely front-loaded and matches often ended with someone basically giving up when they were down to just their assist character. Marvel 3 with x-factor encourages people to make teams that try to win with the first 2 characters but still have a backup plan if they're down to just the anchor.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Karsticles
Member
Why do you think it's called "The Wong Factor"? No one has it but him. Surely you don't want to design an entire game around one person's abilities!
The fact that that one video gets posted so much as a counterargument shows how right I am. There are one, maybe two or three, examples of MvC2 reverse OCVs in ten years of the game being played. Think about it. There is no better argument in favor of X-Factor than that.
I agree with this as well. X-Factor, for all the salt it induces, also makes Marvel more playable and fun because you have hope.
SloaneRisette
Member
Aka Keep Calm and Pick Vergil factor.
And the people that did enter those other tournaments also requested 3/5. My point still stands. Play the game the way the community wants it to be played.
Do whatever the F you want with the stream, I'm not paying Levelup or TeamSpooky so I'm not entitled to anything. If they want maximum CPM's then it's not my place to tell them otherwise. People pay to enter and travel for a tournament, cater to them.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
The last tournament I went to, Yipes was getting hype right behind me while I got bodied by a Dormammu player. I didn't mind.
SloaneRisette
Member
Yipes hype would be much more enjoyable than ETR "hype". Even while getting bodied.
Passive Assassin
Member
lol. really? no seriously... why?
SloaneRisette
Member
To get your money, of course.
Passive Assassin
Member
CPU tournaments and crowdfunding to fly players out. Camaan.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
To train with FChamp. Champ had a ton of people out to FGTV in the month leading up to Evo last year, and he won Evo. Maybe Champ wants to learn some Magneto tech.
by "wepay" of course we mean youpay
FChamp said at ECT he ran two FT10s against Moons and one against Winrich.
Against Moons:
Dorm Team 10-3
Phoenix Team 10-4
Against Winrich:
10-1
Won them all.
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: I RAPED THAT LIL KID
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: I SHOWED HIM
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: WHOS DADDY
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: YOU KNOW WHAT IM SAYING
He's also saying Tokido and Xian might come visit the FGTV house.
Against Moons:
Dorm Team 10-3
Phoenix Team 10-4
Against Winrich:
10-1
Won them all.
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: I RAPED THAT LIL KID
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: I SHOWED HIM
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: WHOS DADDY
Broadcaster Subscriber Fgtvlive: YOU KNOW WHAT IM SAYING
He's also saying Tokido and Xian might come visit the FGTV house.
You honestly can't be discounting this because it took skill lol
Parallax Scroll
Banned
This too. X-factor helps ensure that matches are interesting all the way to the end. In mvc2 you pretty much knew who won after 2 characters died.
Karsticles
Member
I'm not discounting it, I'm using it to demonstrate how very imbalanced Marvel becomes once the first two characters are dead, which was the argument in favor of X-Factor. You always change my claims when we talk, which is why I usually don't respond to you.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you then. It seems that your stance is that because certain players took the time and effort to master all of their characters, leaving them as the only few to have pulled off huge comebacks in the game, XFactor is justified and needed in Marvel 3. I'm not trying to twist your claims, it's more that I'm honestly seeing you describe them in the way I just described.
Marvel 2 "existed" but it was a really imbalanced game. It was a 2.5 character vs 2.5 character game.. most people assumed the 3rd character would just get beat on if it came to him. That's why that game is 2 point characters and an assist, the last character is essentially a dead character. There are exceptions of course but they are extremely few and most players play with the game plan based around their first 2 characters.
The other side of the coin as Karst mentioned is that some characters get ridiculous bonuses in XF which actually trump a full team. That is something that should obviously be rectified like with Vergil. Most other characters aren't that great with XF and can be dealt with with superior play plus XF of your own. For characters like Haggar, XF is not enough to overcome a full team.
I don't fully support the current status of XF but I can see why they put that in the game. It's a tough decision to make. If XF wasn't in the game Marvel 3 would be a first touch win game... very front loaded and games would be decided very quickly and 40% of the match would be players playing out the motion.
I can also see the Justin argument. It's an anomaly, out of hundred plus matches you might see one reverse OCV with an assist character. Maybe. And it's usually because the other player wasn't playing the match up right and was sticking to the ground too much or going in too much. No one is "discounting" it but its not something you balance your game around. Like for example... LLND's Hsien Ko can OCV full teams rather easily off of one touch. Is the character broken? Hell no. This is an anomaly.
Karsticles
Member
It's not like top players make comebacks in MvC2 even infrequently, though. If you just had to be as good as JWong to stand a chance, then it would be okay. That video is an exception within an exception. JWong is an exceptional player, and in the vast majority of his matches he's a dead duck once the first two characters are dead, just like anyone else. That match is phenomenal because those comebacks never happen even for top players. When the best player of the world still does not stand a chance to make a comeback, the mechanics need reworking. That was my point.
Ideally, Marvel wouldn't have X-Factor. Instead, it would work like this:
1) All characters are good on point and have good assists.
2) When character one dies, nothing changes.
3) When you are down to your last character, that character automatically goes into an enhanced state that provides bonuses unique to the character to make up for the lack of assists.
This provides a comeback mechanism without simply offering stupidly high damage and speed boosts to solo teams. Basically, each character would go SS when solo. Dormammu would be able to cancel different specials into each other, Magneto would be able to dash-cancel his specials, Wolverine would gain permanent Berserker Charge with health regen, etc. Stuff like that. It may sound crazy, but it would still be less crazy than X-Factor, and it would still take a ton of skill to play these characters like this instead of herpaderp X-Factor.
The reason this superior idea will never take form, though, is that it takes a lot more development time than X-Factor does.
call_kotaku
Member
I saw a ton of it on twitter and on this forum, so who knows. It didn't seem like anyone had a problem with it at the venue.
Negativity is a bad way to get yourself heard or to get what you want in these sorts of situations, on a general level. It's perfectly okay to dislike other games or dislike the circumstances, but "why's this shit on stream now instead of ____" is always a bad look, whether you're talking about Injustice or Marvel. Acting like having Divekick or Mystery Game on the main stage was a snub at Injustice is pretty silly.
This is also why all the esports teams tell people to please not call the sponsors to complain about anything, because it's a terrible look for everybody involved. Ultimately all they will see is a bunch of righteous people that will threaten and complain if they don't get their way. The outraged parties won't get what they want, and the only thing it encourages sponsors to do is to stop sponsoring, period (Keits was entertaining the idea of not running NRS games in the future, though I don't think he'll do it).
I just hope more people realize that these sorts of things are awfully counter-productive, regardless of the actual grievance you're trying to address.
Marvel 2 is not like Tekken where you always have a chance for a comeback (which is why Tekken should never have a comeback mechanic). In Marvel 2 if you have a full team vs someone's Psylocke/CapCom/Cyclops you can literally just fly to the top of the screen and spam FP to build meter and chip them to death with Hail/Drone/Viper beam etc. There is nothing they can do about it because that is how you play the match up. Sure if you hold forward on the stick and get clipped by them you will probably die but that is playing dumb and that is how you allow those characters to make comebacks on you. Its not even about out playing or playing better than someone in that situation. Imagine a real fight where one guy has a few scratches and the other guy has only one leg and no arms. That is what it feels like going 1v3 in a Marvel game. XF is like giving that guy a gun with 3 bullets after he loses 2 arms and a leg.
You have something similar happening in Marvel 3 too where a MorriDoom team is against a final character and just locks them down. In Marvel 2 the other player would just hold their stick forward so they can get to the next match faster but in Marvel 3 he has a chance even if its a very small one.
You have something similar happening in Marvel 3 too where a MorriDoom team is against a final character and just locks them down. In Marvel 2 the other player would just hold their stick forward so they can get to the next match faster but in Marvel 3 he has a chance even if its a very small one.
But they do stand a chance, albeit extremely slim. I already know it's generally agreed that the nature of XF in its current state with certain chars is awful (essentially rewarding someone for losing two team mates so they can overpower a full team with XF vergil/phoenix/strider/whoever) but beyond that it still just doesn't make sense to me. It's not like an ultra which, when used improperly, will leave you at even more of a disadvantage. This gives you a free cancel of basically anything to safety, boosts your char heavily, brings back lost health if any red health exists and so on. This goes well beyond the comeback mechanic that is an Ultra and goes in to the territory of being ridiculous.
SolarPowered
Member
Straight to the point. The very same sentence crossed my mind half an hour ago. I honestly can't blame them either. They've got a lot of characters to balance here.
The other player has XF too so they can counter a guard cancel with their own. Or you can force them to XF early by either snapping their main anchor early or forcing a chip situation. And you can avoid their XF boosted chip damage with an XF of your own.
The real problem is just the boosts themselves for certain characters. I don't give a crap about Hulk in XF3, he's going to lose in 90% of situations anyway... but a XF3 Vergil is a crap shoot trying to kill legitimately which is why you gotta snap him in always. Snap makes XF manageable, I mean there are very few teams where no matter what order you kill them they will have a godly anchor.
If you want to argue something, argue against TACs. THAT is an unneeded, completely bull shit mechanic in the game that ruins the fun and strategy of the game. Fuck TACs. There is no justification for that mechanic to exist in the game. If you rely on TACs as your major game plan, you are bad and you should feel bad for being a dirty scumbag player.
Beast Legacy
Member
NRS players and devs realized it was what it was.
I agree that negativity is the worst way to try to get what you want, but this attitude is present in all games and communities (let's not bring up Fanatiq again). If what you're saying is true and Keits is contemplating not running NRS games in the future then that's incredibly disappointing and I urge him not to let people that don't even attend his events decide for those who do.
Tizoc
Member
@Karsticles- 3rd thing you wrote sounds like a player activating KFC with their last remaining character, though I get what you mean by unique bonuses.
Though if anything, players'll end up bitching about it and it'll make most players choose the character who has the better options/buffs.
I'll believe you if you can show me matches where Low Tier teams can beat any Top Tier team in MvC2.
KFC in UMvC3 just needs to trimmed down so it's 1 level only, offering a slight attack boost (25%) and stats boost, and to activate cost 1 stock of meter.
Stat/Speed boost could be dropped tho.
I other words: make it similar to POW mode from KoF.
Though if anything, players'll end up bitching about it and it'll make most players choose the character who has the better options/buffs.
I'll believe you if you can show me matches where Low Tier teams can beat any Top Tier team in MvC2.
KFC in UMvC3 just needs to trimmed down so it's 1 level only, offering a slight attack boost (25%) and stats boost, and to activate cost 1 stock of meter.
Stat/Speed boost could be dropped tho.
I other words: make it similar to POW mode from KoF.
Karsticles
Member
This is a key point of disagreement between us. Using X-Factor at the wrong time can get you killed. X-Factor is always almost never safe to use as a block cancel, but no one puts work into countering it. It is a free cancel, but it is a free one time cancel. Whenever my opponent blows X-Factor early unsuccessfully, I know that the game is over. I won unless I screw it up. Using X-Factor poorly is worse than losing a character for some teams.
And no funds!
Ideally, you make all of the characters into team killers that take a lot of skill to play. People will always choose the character with the better buffs, but so long as a character doesn't have the best anchor buffs and the best assists, it won't be a problem.
Professor Beef
Banned
Joe would be busted with Karst's mechanic idea.
My part there was just explaining why it's not really comparable to an Ultra. Theoretically there's no "bad" time to xfactor, just times that are much less opportune than others. A bad ultra will leave you exposed and in a very dangerous situation. "Bad" xfactor means you wasted a tool but are still fine. I could be wrong on this, if there are times where using xfactor makes you immediately vulnerable for doing so, I apologize and am willing to admit my knowledge of this game mostly comes from watching streams.
TACs are obviously awful, if nothing else because there really isn't a reason not to do do a TAC. If broken TACs were punishable, then I'd have no issue with them.
I can't remember which match it was, but I remember Kane doing an xfactor-less comeback with Haggar against Nemo's full team. I don't get how that can happen, be possible, and then have people arguing you need xfactor for a comeback to make the game good.
Karsticles
Member
You don't even know what buffs he would get.
Here's another idea, too:
When each character is the last one remaining, he/she can still use assist buttons to create screen effects that are assist-like. This retains the power of assists without the threat of anything becoming too crazy. Examples:
Viewtiful Joe:
Sylvia appears on the screen and fires her gun.
Dormammu:
A tracking Purification pillar appears (so you can call the tracking Purification pillar assist and charge a Dark Spell, covering yourself).
Amaterasu:
Issun drops from the sky and performs a slashing attack.
Storm:
Lightning strikes the ground, inverse-Purification style.
Shuma-Gorath:
A tentacle appears from behind the opponent through a warp portal and tries to grab him/her.
Haggar:
An oil drum appears.
This shit is so easy, Capcom! I just one-upped your game design for a comeback factor with two different ideas in the last 20 minutes.
call_kotaku
Member
I always thought the inherent problem with x-factor was that it condensed a ton of things (guard cancel, move cancel, negating block damage, damage boost, speed boost) into a single decision, and that decision happened to be more important than every other decision you make in a match. It's like asking someone to play music but only giving them a rape whistle, there's not enough nuance.
I totally understand the need for a comeback mechanic in a 3v3 game, though, because losing the match as soon as you lose your first character makes the game uninteresting. Netsu in Tekken 6 was dumb, though, but I guess it makes sense in TTT2 since it's meant to penalize tag crash and reward tag combos, but that could've been done just via red health so idk.
I totally understand the need for a comeback mechanic in a 3v3 game, though, because losing the match as soon as you lose your first character makes the game uninteresting. Netsu in Tekken 6 was dumb, though, but I guess it makes sense in TTT2 since it's meant to penalize tag crash and reward tag combos, but that could've been done just via red health so idk.
toddhunter
Member
So? If they get it wrong they can just patc...