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[Burbank_]

Right, but the consensus here is that Valve/Steam is "good" and Microsoft is "evil". I just think they are both just corporations and are doing what is best in their own interest.

Well that is a strange way of putting it. Rather, Steam as a service is seen as good proposition to customers. You don't need to include moral terms to recognize the XB1 as a pretty bad service for customers.

Both Steam anx XB1 are built to make money, but MS seems to have focused on features that appeal to publishers rather than users. That isn't evil. It's just stupid.

 

[Pennywise]

Only if another source comes through. It's alright, the Buttocks has done so much lately.

Well, to be honest I don't even renember which topic it exactly it was.

Gonna look it up.

Edit
" 1more truthfactbefore 10am conf. MONDAY"
Original

 

[Perkel]

Given the hoops you have to jump through with most consoles I can't see software piracy being such a huge issue for consoles. Which means these initiatives are focusing on a really small subset of the market. I mean software sales between Wii, 360, and PS3 are on par if not exceeding software sales for the prior generation of PS2, Xbox, and GCN.

You're looking at no lost software sales from the prior generation and a substantive uptick in hardware sales. Impressive, given no console had the lock on the market and overwhelming software support of the PS2.

On the PC it is literally as easy as finding a place to DL the title. Which is why there was such a change in that market.

On consoles these newly minted DRM practices are fighting an almost nonexistent enemy.

edit: At the potential expense of legit buyers like me.

That is the thing. They are not fighting with piracy.

Piracy on current gen consoles is almost non-existent. X360 may have some but PS3 is virtually piracy free and what is most important current gen games didn't sell better than PS2 era games (beside market growth). They errased piracy and games didn't sell millions more like they predicted.

Their target is actually paying consumer. They don't want you to trade your games. They want every dude out there to pay them for their games and don't trade it. They want to cut middle man (shops) and get most of your money.

All that because they pump xx of milions into project and expect them to sell 5mln or above.

I think MS will learn hard way that money=money. Current 5 mln sellers on Xbox won't rise but will go down to 4-3.5 mln thanks to that policy.

Just like Heavy Rain numbers and amount of trophies gained by people.

People bought 2mln copies of HR and 3 mln of people had trophies from those coppies. Which means at least 1 mln of people bought it with intention to sell it and by doing that they would recover some money and buy next new game and thanks to used game market 3 mln people played their game which means sequel will be much more known than game which was played by 2mln.

Introducing MS policies on game like HR would mean than ~1,3-1,5 mln would buy game and that's it. No 500k sales more , and 50% less publicity something that may kick them in balls later when they release their next game.

 

[1-D_FTW]

Someone sent me a PM and I think I've come around on this Steam = XB1 argument.

They also persuasively argued that Nintendo = Live. They both offer online play. They both have Netflix. They both have the ability of the console to control the TV.

So Steam = Live = Nintendo Online = PSN. I guess I was being shortsighted and examining all the differences, when I should have been looking at all the things they have in common. I'll remember this next time someone calls Nintendo Online a POS. Or says its inferior to Live or PSN.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

That is the thing. They are not fighting with piracy.

Piracy on current gen consoles is almost non-existent. X360 may have some but PS3 is virtually piracy free and what is most important current gen games didn't sell better than PS2 era games (beside market growth). They errased piracy and games didn't sell millions more like they predicted.

Their target is actually paying consumer. They don't want you to trade your games. They want every dude out there to pay them for their games and don't trade it. They want to cut middle man (shops) and get most of your money.

All that because they pump xx of milions into project and expect them to sell 5mln or above.

I think MS will learn hard way that money=money. Current 5 mln sellers on Xbox won't rise but will go down to 4-3.5 mln thanks to that policy.

Just like Heavy Rain numbers and amount of trophies gained by people.

People bought 2mln copies of HR and 3 mln of people had trophies from those coppies. Which means at least 1 mln of people bought it with intention to sell it and by doing that they would recover some money and buy next new game and thanks to used game market 3 mln people played their game which means sequel will be much more known than game which was played by 2mln.

Introducing MS policies on game like HR would mean than ~1,3-1,5 mln would buy game and that's it. No 500k sales more , and 50% less publicity something that may kick them in balls later when they release their next game.

And this is why I'm so firmly against the very concept.

Currently you just buy a license to the software encoded on the disc. This takes that and expands on it "You don't even have the right to sell this after the fact."

You own nothing about the game anymore. And that's not a precedent I want set in an already unsteady market.

 

[BruceWayneIII]

That is the thing. They are not fighting with piracy.

Piracy on current gen consoles is almost non-existent. X360 may have some but PS3 is virtually piracy free and what is most important current gen games didn't sell better than PS2 era games (beside market growth). They errased piracy and games didn't sell millions more like they predicted.

Their target is actually paying consumer. They don't want you to trade your games. They want every dude out there to pay them for their games and don't trade it. They want to cut middle man (shops) and get most of your money.

All that because they pump xx of milions into project and expect them to sell 5mln or above.

I think MS will learn hard way that money=money. Current 5 mln sellers on Xbox won't rise but will go down to 4-3.5 mln thanks to that policy.

Just like Heavy Rain numbers and amount of trophies gained by people.

People bought 2mln copies of HR and 3 mln of people had trophies from those coppies. Which means at least 1 mln of people bought it with intention to sell it and by doing that they would recover some money and buy next new game and thanks to used game market 3 mln people played their game which means sequel will be much more known than game which was played by 2mln.

Introducing MS policies on game like HR would mean than ~1,3-1,5 mln would buy game and that's it. No 500k sales more , and 50% less publicity something that may kick them in balls later when they release their next game.

Thank you for taking the time to post this This is exactly how I view used games and their effect on sales.

 

[Spongebob]

That is the thing. They are not fighting with piracy.

Piracy on current gen consoles is almost non-existent. X360 may have some but PS3 is virtually piracy free and what is most important current gen games didn't sell better than PS2 era games (beside market growth). They errased piracy and games didn't sell millions more like they predicted.

Their target is actually paying consumer. They don't want you to trade your games. They want every dude out there to pay them for their games and don't trade it. They want to cut middle man (shops) and get most of your money.

All that because they pump xx of milions into project and expect them to sell 5mln or above.

I think MS will learn hard way that money=money. Current 5 mln sellers on Xbox won't rise but will go down to 4-3.5 mln thanks to that policy.

Just like Heavy Rain numbers and amount of trophies gained by people.

People bought 2mln copies of HR and 3 mln of people had trophies from those coppies. Which means at least 1 mln of people bought it with intention to sell it and by doing that they would recover some money and buy next new game and thanks to used game market 3 mln people played their game which means sequel will be much more known than game which was played by 2mln.

Introducing MS policies on game like HR would mean than ~1,3-1,5 mln would buy game and that's it. No 500k sales more , and 50% less publicity something that may kick them in balls later when they release their next game.

Fantastic post. I wish MS would see this.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

 

[Leezard]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

This would certainly be interesting. If true, then I suppose early adopters would be boned even if the expected life time is 5 years.

 

[chubigans]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

Huh, can they even measure something like that? I don't know much about hardware internals.

 

[Kolgar]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

After going through four Xboxes this past gen, I think I'll pass on more of Microsoft's "disposable" hardware.

As if the draconian anti-consumer stuff isn't enough, they still haven't figured out how to build a box that doesn't self-destruct? Goodness, jump out.

 

[ekim]

Huh, can they even measure something like that? I don't know much about hardware internals.

Not sure... wise move if true.

 

[ascii42]

Huh, can they even measure something like that? I don't know much about hardware internals.

A lot of products do some sort of accelerated testing to simulate a longer period. Not sure what they'd do here, maybe turning it on and off 10,000 times or something.

 

[anexanhume]

Huh, can they even measure something like that? I don't know much about hardware internals.

You can predict component life based on when you expect electronigration to break contacts.

I can tell you a chip only being designed to last 3 years like this APU smells like fermented horseshit. There's no way they're running the voltages up that high just to make the part pass their binning, because their binning should be pretty conservative by virtue of it being a console part where almost all parts that yield need to be good for the console.

To those asking how you simulate it, you simply run the part at a higher voltage and temperature to increase the lattice vibrations in the silicon and cause the interconnects to break down.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Haha, that sounds like some classic Gies spin alright. Negative into a positive. His interview must be soon.

 

[IHaveCandy]

It is so awkward to hear MS chant the eSRAM as some sort of huge technological breakthrough that makes their system so great. It is clearly a patchwork compromise to get 8 GB of RAM cheaply without being completely useless. It's like an EMT saying that bandage he put over a gunshot is so amazing and keeps 40% more blood inside the victim's body than if he had nothing at all.

 

[Glorified G]

LOL at the GiantBomb guy saying it's purely Sony fanboys. I owned a 360 and nearly 100 games for it.

Sorry, Brad. This isn't a fanboy issue. This is a consumer rights issue. Pull back from Microsoft's teat and open your eyes and you might be able to see that.

I agree. I have 77 xbox 360 games and 17 ps3 games (18 with the last of us next week). Wow, what a sony fanboy i am.

I just think you can see that most of the press isn`t spending their money to play games and just get them gifted. No wonder they have a relaxed attitude toward MS anti consumer attempt.

Ditto for someone who has 80+ retail games for 360. More than ps3 & wii combined. I'm not touching this shit with a 10ft pole.

At least some of the media is calling ms out on this.

 

[Gorillaz]

I still find it really interesting that Crazy Butt hasn't commented on the downclock rumor.

It seems a little unlike him to only comment on half a rumor. This leads me to think that maybe that info would make him a little easier to single out, but I'm not sure. Honestly I'd rather think that he hasn't commented on it because he can't corroborate enough info on the downclock rumor to actually make a truthfact statement. This could either be because it's difficult to get info on, or because MS hasn't made up it's collectively freakish Ballmer hivemind. It's possible they are just planning on pumping out enough chips to see if yields can either improve or they can get enough working to launch, and if they can't then they initiate the downclock.

If they have a plan going forward then Nelson's comment makes sense. They're not having problems with production because everything is going according to plan. A very sloppy, fucked up, disorganized plan.

I wonder if Crazy Butt's next comment before Microsoft's Monday morning conference will concern Xbone demo's using non final yet to be downclocked hardware...

First thing I thought as well was that it involved some of the demos and a possible change in hardware

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

3 year life cycle increased by 2 years due to lowering the gpu core clock. Seems legit.

 

[Pie and Beans]

3 year life cycle increased by 2 years due to lowering the gpu core clock. Seems legit.

Unlike the secret sauce that was going to spice things up, this is the mysterious milkshake that is going to cool the unit right down for longevity.

also for consideration: the hush-hush slush.

 

[kitch9]

Huh, can they even measure something like that? I don't know much about hardware internals.

Easy.

If the chips coming of the line leaking electricity from their transistors at a projected speed then lowering the clocks may stop that happening.

A "leaky" chip will use more power, thus generate more heat than one that isn't "leaky."

Heat and power is the bane of electronics. The less of both in a device, the longer it lasts in general.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Given the hoops you have to jump through with most consoles I can't see software piracy being such a huge issue for consoles. Which means these initiatives are focusing on a really small subset of the market. I mean software sales between Wii, 360, and PS3 are on par if not exceeding software sales for the prior generation of PS2, Xbox, and GCN.

You're looking at no lost software sales from the prior generation and a substantive uptick in hardware sales. Impressive, given no console had the lock on the market and overwhelming software support of the PS2.

On the PC it is literally as easy as finding a place to DL the title. Which is why there was such a change in that market.

On consoles these newly minted DRM practices are fighting an almost nonexistent enemy.

edit: At the potential expense of legit buyers like me.

Agree with this.

If I was buying their game second hand in the first place, chances are I wasn't interested enough to buy it new.

If I played it and enjoyed it, then I would be more likely to buy the second game new at launch. In the scenario with no second hand games, I won't buy the sequel as I wasn't interested enough to buy the first game new.

 

[Foxix Von]

First thing I thought as well was that it involved some of the demos and a possible change in hardware

Right? I can't think of another reason why he would specifically note that it would be immediately preceding the conference.

 

[Averon]

I agree. I have 77 xbox 360 games and 17 ps3 games (18 with the last of us next week). Wow, what a sony fanboy i am.

I just think you can see that most of the press isn`t spending their money to play games and just get them gifted. No wonder they have a relaxed attitude toward MS anti consumer attempt.

Yeah, I think this is a huge part of it. Places like IGN, Gamespot, Giant Bomb, and PA rarely buy their own gaming stuff; it's all gifted to them for free by the industry. To them, who cares if the Xbone is anti-consumer garbage. Who care if you can't lend games you bought with your hard earned money to your friends, or sell them if you choose.

They're not going to be hurt by these policies because it literally don't affect them. Nothing comes out of their pockets.

 

[anexanhume]

Easy.

If the chips coming of the line leaking electricity from their transistors at a projected speed then lowering the clocks may stop that happening.

A "leaky" chip will use more power, thus generate more heat than one that isn't "leaky."

Heat and power is the bane of electronics. The less of both in a device, the longer it lasts in general.

No. Leakage isn't a direct concern for component life.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Right? I can't think of another reason why he would specifically note that it would be immediately preceding the conference.

I'm not sure; he did mention that he had to get additional confirmation from a third party, so he might have said that just because he needed time to confirm.

Certainly is interesting though.

 

[ShowDog]

Haha, that sounds like some classic Gies spin alright. Negative into a positive. His interview must be soon.

But SONY isn't changing the clock speeds and they're using a similar part. Fuck PS4 only gonna last 3 yrs confirmed. Thank god MS is looking out for consumers with this. And good thing Gies was smart enough to pass along this tidbit and let us glean out the implication ourselves.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

It's not like these topics are filled top to bottom in composed, measured discourse. There's plenty, sure, but there also is tons (I'd say way more, but that may be an issue of perception) of 'saveussonykaz.gif', a lot of it from the usual culprits who in the past have defended Sony's own shittiness.

You can't even have a conversation about any of this; it's all black and white nonsense. Especially since an admin went ahead and mentioned that the place is full of shills, and it's clear the forum doesn't have the maturity to handle that sort of information; now you're seriously getting 'your opinion diverges from the majority, that's very suspicious, comrade' in posts.

Which is a pity, since this used games issue is a lot more nuanced (like most things) than we want it to be, but we'll never air it out here. All we'll get it 'ANTI-CONSUMER' barked out louder and louder. Which, sure, this XBOne thing is, but it's also a shitty, half-baked implementation.

You should blame the guys hiring the shills - their decision has caused this situation.

 

[Painraze]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

That's some of the most amazing spin I've heard in a long time. Wow.

 

[Spongebob]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

Downclocking rumor looking more and more likely.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Unlike the secret sauce that was going to spice things up, this is the mysterious milkshake that is going to cool the unit right down for longevity.

also for consideration: the hush-hush slush.

I heard there was a new version of the X1 with the gpu and esram completely removed in favor of unlimited cloud power. Code name is Bob Ross.

 

[Foxix Von]

I'm not sure; he did mention that he had to get additional confirmation from a third party, so he might have said that just because he needed time to confirm.

Certainly is interesting though.

It could be too that he's going to E3 and he'll be meeting his source there. Which would explain why he can't post it or get confirmation before Monday morning?

 

[sTeLioSco]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

when both consoles get released then we should compare multiplatform games.....
we will see then if there is a downclock. for e3 demos on devkits that maybe isn't taken into account

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Haha, that sounds like some classic Gies spin alright. Negative into a positive. His interview must be soon.

I wonder how much it costs to buy him on a per month basis.

 

[Raist]

Downclocking rumor looking more and more likely.

Maybe that's what cboat was planning to confirm later.

 

[Spongebob]

when both consoles get released then we should compare multiplatform games.....
we will see then if there is a downclock. for e3 demos on devkits that maybe isn't taken into account

That would be rather hard to judge...

 

[opticalmace]

If MS were to never tell us the specs, would it be possible to determine the GPU speed after-the-fact?

 

[Hiro_Kunimi_80]

At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

i'd overclock a little bit, 2 years of EU warranty is enough to cover any issue. More units to sell

 

[Raist]

If MS were to never tell us the specs, would it be possible to determine the GPU speed after-the-fact?

No. Maybe why they only went with "5B transistors, 8GB RAM" as far as specs go.

 

[sTeLioSco]

That would be rather hard to judge...

How would we know? We already can guess that XBOX One games should look worse than PS4 games whether or not they downclock it.

well we could compare Mondays demonstrations on devkits with release versions?

 

[cookie-monster]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

with adequate cooling these chips should last 10 years or more.

what a pile of manure.

 

[ascii42]

when both consoles get released then we should compare multiplatform games.....
we will see then if there is a downclock. for e3 demos on devkits that maybe isn't taken into account

How would we know? We already can guess that XBOX One games should look worse than PS4 games whether or not they downclock it.

 

[Cidd]

Everyone's favorite Polygon employee said on Rebel FM this week that he has also heard the downclocking rumors from a source. According to him the reason was actually the longevity of the product. At the original projected clockspeed they were projecting an Xbox One would last for 3 years before the hardware fails, on average. Reducing the clock speed would supposedly increase that to 5 years.

Interesting, if true how much of a performance gap is there going to be between the PS4 and Xbone.

If this ends up being 1TF vs 1.8TF, things are going to get ugly later on.

 

[Spongebob]

well we could compare Mondays demonstrations on devkits with release versions?

True.

 

[Gorillaz]

SO if this downclock happens what does this mean for MS in the long run? Are we talking lower frame rates as time goes on? Will multiplat be a huge difference?

 

[mcfishstick]

I agree. I have 77 xbox 360 games and 17 ps3 games (18 with the last of us next week). Wow, what a sony fanboy i am.

I just think you can see that most of the press isn`t spending their money to play games and just get them gifted. No wonder they have a relaxed attitude toward MS anti consumer attempt.

This.

All this generation I have had a 360 and a Wii. I have 2 or 3 drawers full of 360 games. The beginning of this gen, the 360 was a box designed for games. Every year the dashboard updated, and every year the games were pushed aside for game adverts, to film adverts, to pizza hut adverts.

I was excited for next gen, but the whole blocking of used games is a massive disappointment. I will avoid any next gen consoles that block used games like I would plague-bearing rats and stick to pc, its strategy exclusives will absorb my time more than any shooter.

And before steam is brought up, there have been plenty of threads started about how steams is nothing like the xbone. Microsoft will never lower prices the way steam has. They charge extra for online when no other company does so. Sony seems more trustworthy since they actually give games free to PS+users and Valve actions in the past have shown that they can be given some degree of trust too.

On topic now. I think Sony has really caught Microsoft off guard with its early announcement. All the rumours don't bode well for the xbone. These rumours are probably true since most of the xbone rumours came true after most people didn't believe them because they seemed outlandish and insane.

 

[sTeLioSco]

SO if this downclock happens what does this mean for MS in the long run? Are we talking lower frame rates as time goes on? Will multiplat be a huge difference?

who knows for sure....

with downclock the xbox1 will have less power,thats simple.
we will see in the real world when they release with games on shelves. youtube will be full of comparisons,i dont know why we bother comparing specs. we will see eventually...

 

[nhlducks35]

SO if this downclock happens what does this mean for MS in the long run? Are we talking lower frame rates as time goes on? Will multiplat be a huge difference?

PS4 could possibly be 100% more powerful than the One, and that's excluding the GDDR5 RAM. Multiplats on the PS4 could easily be 1080P vs 720P or 60FPS vs 30FPS.

 

[Spongebob]

SO if this downclock happens what does this mean for MS in the long run? Are we talking lower frame rates as time goes on? Will multiplat be a huge difference?

Having 1/2 the power as your competitor would definitely result in a large difference between multiplatform titles.

PS4 could possibly be 100% more powerful than the One, and that's excluding the GDDR5 RAM. Multiplats on the PS4 could easily be 1080P vs 720P or 60FPS vs 30FPS.

1080p vs 720p is far more likely.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Having 1/2 the power as your competitor would definitely result in a large difference between multiplatform titles.


1080p vs 720p is far more likely.

I'd prefer 60 fps vs 30 myself...