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[calder]

Really interesting article. Funny how people can read it (or skim a few bolded sentences) and get what they want out of it.

What *I* get out of it is a bit of disappointment that the Sony first party stuff seems a bit technically weaker than I would have expected excluding Infamous which seems like the most solid and advanced despite not being a launch title (although the article says it is, which is odd). It's a dangerous thing to get too wrapped up in how E3 demos look months before release, DriveClub may all come together late in the day. And Killzone looks great but maybe they'll get the framerate and (oh Guerilla) input latency sorted out.

Seems counter intuitive to me that the third party stuff on PS4 like AssCreed (of all titles) is more impressive at this stage, but really the big third party releases are the work of huge development teams so that shouldn't be surprising. . But really I think some of my disappointment may be unfair, I'm looking at a fairly unambitious family-friendly title like Knack and comparing it to my idealized vision of Sony first party efforts, like it's from Polyphony or ND or something.



EDIT: oh, and about framerate in general count me in for the "a solid locked 30 with extra eye-melting visuals plz" crowd. Genre dependent I guess, but while most of the games I play on PC are 60ish it doesn't bother me when they aren't. I'm much more fussy about resolution, nothing and I mean nothing will hopefully be rendered at less than 1080p on any platform moving forward.

 

[BadAss2961]

It's funny seeing some of the graphics/performance whores of the past few weeks transform into 'gameplay comes first' advocates all of a sudden.

Are they? Because they really don't have to. If you're a graphics/performance whore, there's no question that the PS4 is the console to get.

 

[DC R1D3R]

It's funny seeing some of the graphics/performance whores of the past few weeks transform into 'gameplay comes first' advocates all of a sudden.

Isn't it fucking amazing to see?

 

[powersurge]

My biggest hope is we see Anti-aliasing cranked up to 11 this gen. I freakin hate jaggies. I'll turn other settings down before I turn AA off on pc games.

 

[RyudBoy]

And I'm telling you, that expectation was, DUMB. I'm sorry, but you are never, ever, ever ever EVER, going to be able to COUNT on standardized 1080p/60fps, on a fixed piece of hardware.

The expectation is, that visuals get better, and these consoles will be around anywhere from four to eight years. Code can only improve so much, and developers will still be under pressure to improve visuals.

The only way to free up horsepower for A, G, or Y, is to divert power from somewhere like B, D, or X. Most people won't notice 30fps instead of 60fps, or 940p vs 1080p, so if they have to compromise, THAT's where it'll happen.

Thats just the plain and simple truth. Developers cannot count on consoles getting better GPU's every eight-teen months. Cannot count of unders getting more ram, cannot count on better CPU's. They have set hardware they need to work with, and that is that, period.

You're missing the point.

Currently, one system is delivering on a bullet point that myself and many others are expecting from the next generation consoles and the other one isn't. 1080p60 can be the standard if the developers choose. We are already seeing amazing looking games on the X1 that will meet those expectations as launch titles.

 

[keyrat]

I disagree. 60fps doesn't add clarity or fidelity. a 30fps TV show isn't 25% more clear than a 24fps movie. Likewise a 60fps game isn't 100% more clear than a 30fps game.

Frame rate is almost unarguably an "effect". Almost like a filter.. well, sort of. Visually it's like a filter (much like the 120Hz motion interpolation on TV that some people enjoy). There of course IS a gameplay advantage to it, especially in competitive play where double the screen updates means double the positioning updates. But if we are not talking about competitive play, 60fps is almost entirely an aesthetic. And not even (IMHO) good or bad. Much like 30fps TV or 24fps film (or even 48fps for film). It's a stylistic choice.

that's what I really don't get about this thread.. saying "I want all games to be 1080p60" is like saying you want all movies to be 4K/120. You don't really gain anything qualitative, and of course it changes the experience of the media entirely.

Devs should be able to choose their frame rates like movie directors (or even TV producers) choose theirs.

edit - of course frame rate dips are another story entirely.

This man gets it.

It's a stylistic and gameplay choice. It works well for many games, for example, sports and competitive shooters.

On consoles it will always be a trade-off, and on PC as well if your PC is not top of the line and brand new.

Now, you're gonna tell me you think something like the Bioshock series on current consoles would be better at 60fps with the level of detail of Call of Duty? Yea, you probably are, but I'm glad that the producers decided to do what they did. 60fps moves too fast to look cinematic, and you'd also have to take away too many immersive details.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

You're missing the point.

Currently, one system is delivering on a bullet point that myself and many others are expecting from the next generation consoles and the other one isn't. 1080p60 can be the standard if the developers choose. We are already seeing amazing looking games on the X1 that will meet those expectations as launch titles.

Do you have a list of games running at 1080p60 besides Forza? Because when you have to hit those bulletpoints, something has to give, whether you're giving up real-time day-night cycles or some other compromises. Are you upset that not all xbone games are 1080p60?

 

[orioto]

Seems counter intuitive to me that the third party stuff on PS4 like AssCreed (of all titles) is more impressive at this stage, but really the big third party releases are the work of huge development teams so that shouldn't be surprising. . But really I think some of my disappointment may be unfair, I'm looking at a fairly unambitious family-friendly title like Knack and comparing it to my idealized vision of Sony first party efforts, like it's from Polyphony or ND or something.

I think AssCreed 4 and others are more impressive cause they are crossgen, and basically run past assets with great iq. Drive Club or Knack are exemples of the contrary. Games that try to be next gen by doing awesome shits, and do it badly. I'm pretty sure INfamous is smart enough to be in the first category without showing it too much

 

[Rhindle]

Just read the full atrticle. It squares away nicely with my E3 impressions. Infamous was by a wide margin the most impressive PS4 exclusive. As far as launch titles go, Assassins Creed 4 was the most polished looking (though only multiplayer mode was playable).

 

[RyudBoy]

Is there a list of games running at 1080p60?

For X1? Killer Instinct and Forza 5.

For PS4? Someone help me out here.

 

[Salvor.Hardin]

Are they? Because they really don't have to. If you're a graphics/performance whore, there's no question that the PS4 is the console to get.

I think if you tell yourself that something is going to look x% better on one console than the other by casually looking at the specs, and you and all your friends beat the drum enough that you believe you know exactly how game development works, you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening.

It's so easy to use numbers and percentages to drum up any narrative you want to see. For example, the PS4 is about 50% more powerful than the One. The original Xbox was about twice as powerful as the PS2. MGS 2 looked similar on both consoles, with a slight edge to the Xbox. The PS4 won't even have that much of an advantage.

Isn't it fucking amazing to see?

It's delicious.

 

[TheExodu5]

It's funny seeing some of the graphics/performance whores of the past few weeks transform into 'gameplay comes first' advocates all of a sudden.

Yeah, all those strawmans sure are hypocrites.

 

[Croyles]

Really interesting article. Funny how people can read it (or skim a few bolded sentences) and get what they want out of it.

What *I* get out of it is a bit of disappointment that the Sony first party stuff seems a bit technically weaker than I would have expected excluding Infamous which seems like the most solid and advanced despite not being a launch title (although the article says it is, which is odd). It's a dangerous thing to get too wrapped up in how E3 demos look months before release, DriveClub may all come together late in the day. And Killzone looks great but maybe they'll get the framerate and (oh Guerilla) input latency sorted out.

Seems counter intuitive to me that the third party stuff on PS4 like AssCreed (of all titles) is more impressive at this stage, but really the big third party releases are the work of huge development teams so that shouldn't be surprising. . But really I think some of my disappointment may be unfair, I'm looking at a fairly unambitious family-friendly title like Knack and comparing it to my idealized vision of Sony first party efforts, like it's from Polyphony or ND or something.



EDIT: oh, and about framerate in general count me in for the "a solid locked 30 with extra eye-melting visuals plz" crowd. Genre dependent I guess, but while most of the games I play on PC are 60ish it doesn't bother me when they aren't. I'm much more fussy about resolution, nothing and I mean nothing will hopefully be rendered at less than 1080p on any platform moving forward.

Agreed. I didn't know 60fps was so important to so many gamers. I believe it to be important for some genres but for me personally I don't mind. Add to that that these are launch titles 5 months away from releasing, then yea...

If developers at some point CAN do all games at a constant 60fps, that would be great, I wasn't expecting it to happen at the beginning of this console generation though.

 

[theignoramus]

I have an outdated PC that I don't plan to upgrade anytime soon now that the new consoles are coming out. I prefer gaming on consoles, anyways.

so youll complain about the lack of 60 frames refresh, but refuse to invest in the platform that gives you that with the most consistency. okay.

 

[Calavera520]

For X1? Killer Instinct and Forza 5.

For PS4? Someone help me out here.

KI sort of looks like shit. And forza is a driving game. The IQ and perf of driving games is an extremely poor indicator for pretty much any other genre. For instance, as many have said GT6 looks nicer than forza 5. Cars are easy to render nicely. Lighting is another story.

 

[farisr]

For X1? Killer Instinct and Forza 5.

A fighting game and a sim racing game running at 60fps. We're definitely not going to see that on the ps4.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

For X1? Killer Instinct and Forza 5.

For PS4? Someone help me out here.

That's it? So why aren't you outraged by games like Ryse and Quantum Break not being 60fps? Shouldn't you be demanding that every xbone game to be 1080p60 to satisfy your high standard?

 

[Dragon]

Yeah, all those strawmans sure are hypocrites.

 

[theignoramus]

Some people on the B3D forum destroyed their credibility.

link?

 

[driver116]

These incomplete games may have some pop-in, performance issues but al least they free from that game disease which is screen tear.

 

[RyudBoy]

so youll complain about the lack of 60 frames refresh, but refuse to invest in the platform that gives you that with the most consistency. okay.

Will PC ever get these exclusive console games? Okay.

 

[weekend_warrior]

It was one of my most anticipated launch games after seeing the trailers they released.
Not that hyped for it now.

It's the first game to come free with PS+, so they probably realize it's not looking too hot.

 

[EatinOlives]

This man gets it.

It's a stylistic and gameplay choice. It works well for many games, for example, sports and competitive shooters.

On consoles it will always be a trade-off, and on PC as well if your PC is not top of the line and brand new.

Now, you're gonna tell me you think something like the Bioshock series on current consoles would be better at 60fps with the level of detail of Call of Duty? Yea, you probably are, but I'm glad that the producers decided to do what they did. 60fps moves too fast to look cinematic, and you'd also have to take away too many immersive details.

Oh god, PLEASE don't tell me you didn't just use the "30 FPS is more cinematic!!!" argument.

In fact, this whole justification of 60 FPS being only a "stylistic choice" is some pretty crappy mental gymnastics. Half of video games is about input. 60 FPS dramatically improves input. End of story.

 

[BadAss2961]

I think if you tell yourself that something is going to look x% better on one console than the other by casually looking at the specs, and you and all your friends beat the drum enough that you believe you know exactly how game development works, you're probably going to be in for a rude awakening.

It's so easy to use numbers and percentages to drum up any narrative you want to see. For example, the PS4 is about 50% more powerful than the One. The original Xbox was about twice as powerful as the PS2. MGS 2 looked similar on both consoles, with a slight edge to the Xbox. The PS4 won't even have that much of an advantage.

Unlike the last two generations, PS4 and Xbone both use the same architecture. It's now apples to apples instead of apples to oranges, and the PS4 is factually more powerful by a good margin. There's no going around that.

 

[NullPointer]

60 FPS dramatically improves input. End of story.

Definitely true and I find myself in the framerate whore camp most of the time. But game design is always a trade-off, and extra effects can impart more immersion at 30fps than what can be achieved on the hardware at 60fps, so yeah, its also a style choice.

I want 60fps, but will accept 30 if locked down like a law of nature. Sub 30 should be publicly mocked and their developers poked with sharp sticks and exiled to the wilderness.

 

[Drek]

It's the first game to come free with PS+, so they probably realize it's not looking too hot.

I'm sure that's how Sony felt when they gave Infamous 2, LBP2, etc. away as the first IGC titles.

 

[xJavonta]

PS4 - 1080p, 30 FPS
Wii U - 1080p, 60 FPS

I'm just saying, that's either terrible coding, terrible design choices, or both. Turn down the graphics from a 10 to an 8 and double that framerate!

I think the article says the games aren't optimized.

 

[theignoramus]

Will PC ever get these exclusive console games? Okay.

why does it need to be either or? Buy both. You can buy a good card for under 400 dollars.

 

[AlStrong]

I don't think that pre-baked lighting is inherently a bad thing, as the game looks gorgeous, but it does restrict it to not allowing a dynamic lighting change.

Yeah, the quality of lighting will be higher since you can bake the GI and use probes for objects moving through it. Seems like a decent trade-off for an environment that's largely static for the duration of a race. Didn't FM4 have a few tracks with different times of day?

Disc storage may not be an issue what with BD50 (even with higher quality lightmaps/textures vs previous gen), though I suppose it may simply end up being a dev time issue (assuming they would bake morning/day/evening/night for each track).

Dynamic lighting for ToD is certainly flexible and easier though if you're strapped for time & storage. *shrug*

 

[c0de]

A fighting game and a sim racing game running at 60fps. We're definitely no t going to see that on the ps4.

nobody is arguing this, no need for sarcasm. still there was no game for ps4 with 1080p60.

 

[War Eagle]

So the conclusion reached was they're trying to target better visuals at the expense of framerate?

Whatevs tbh.

I'm okay with this. I'm one of those people that has trouble noticing framerate anyway... unless it REALLY lags.

 

[TheDrowningMan]

I'm okay for the most part, but last gen up-ports & Drive Club should dial down the visuals or go native 720p. There's no question that that should be the case with the latter in particular.

 

[RibbedHero]

I think the article says the games aren't optimized.

Optimization might move the game from between 20 and 30fps to a solid 30fps, but it won't magically result in a 60fps game.

 

[RyudBoy]

A fighting game and a sim racing game running at 60fps. We're definitely not going to see that on the ps4.

At launch?

My original argument in this thread was that the PS4 doesn't look like it'll have anything for me during launch. 30fps games(none of which are of my interest) won't help either when deciding on a new console. Let me stress again that I plan on buying both systems, but only one of them at launch.

That's it? So why aren't you outraged by games like Ryse and Quantum Break not being 60fps? Shouldn't you be demanding that every xbone game to be 1080p60 to satisfy your high standard?

A)Not interested in Ryse.
B)Quantum Break @ 30fps is indeed disappointing if it turns out that way, but this game isn't coming out at launch so I don't see the point of bringing it up in this discussion.

And yes, my standards are understandably a bit high when I plan on spending money on a new console.

why does it need to be either or? Buy both. You can buy a good card for under 400 dollars.

I already mentioned that I prefer gaming on consoles. Upgrading PC hardware every now and then just isn't my thing. Plus, my current PC can run games(for example, the new Tomb Raider) @1080p60 just fine.

 

[Roland1979]

Looking forward to the music in Infamous. Love rock, love Nirvana and I love what I heard from that YouTube vid.
In general I'm starting to love the PS4 games more and more because the gameplay is mostly classic but somehow I find them, visually, more interesting. KZ Is very colorful but make use of glow very well, Infamous has enough color but is slightly gritty at the same time, love Knack more now, love everything I saw about Destiny. Driveclub is reversed, was a bit hyped now I'm a bit more reserved.

 

[SirButterstick]

Will PC ever get these exclusive console games? Okay.

LOL keep 'em. Have fun mashin' doez buttonz.

 

[RyudBoy]

LOL keep 'em. Have fun mashin' doez buttonz.

Is it not possible to mash 'keyboard' buttonz?

 

[MogCakes]

Gameplay is always being sacrificed at 30fps, the only debate is whether you think the difference is worth the drop in graphical fidelity.

There is literally never, and I mean never, an occasion where 30fps results in better gameplay than 60fps. The reverse on the other hand universally applies.

So you acknowledge that it's a matter of preference and that different devs will have different goals. Alrighty. But no, 30FPS is not 'sacrificing' anything if the game was designed to run at 30FPS, unless you're using 60FPS as a standard - which it seems you are.

 

[nib95]

A fighting game and a sim racing game running at 60fps. We're definitely not going to see that on the ps4.

Lol. Pretty much.

 

[SirButterstick]

So you acknowledge that it's a matter of preference and that different devs will have different goals. Alrighty. But no, 30FPS is not 'sacrificing' anything if the game was designed to run at 30FPS, unless you're using 60FPS as a standard - which it seems you are.

Try playing an FPS at 60 and then go back to 30 and you'll see what you're missing. I got BF3 running at 120fps now. It makes a world of difference.

Console players are missing out saying that 30 is great!

 

[MogCakes]

Try playing an FPS at 60 and then go back to 30 and you'll see what you're missing. I got BF3 running at 120fps now. It makes a world of difference.

Console players are missing out saying that 30 is great!

Not every game is an FPS. I'm not saying 30FPS is the end all be all, but 60FPS is also not the end all be all. Not every game requires 60FPS. Is it nice to have? Yes. Is it absolutely necessary? No.

 

[megabytecr]

My initial attempt to consolidate all the info From DF and what we know from Wii U.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=64842406#post64842406

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Definitely true and I find myself in the framerate whore camp most of the time. But game design is always a trade-off, and extra effects can impart more immersion at 30fps than what can be achieved on the hardware at 60fps, so yeah, its also a style choice.

I want 60fps, but will accept 30 if locked down like a law of nature. Sub 30 should be publicly mocked and their developers poked with sharp sticks and exiled to the wilderness.

I'll say it again- 9 times out of 10 "locked" 30 fps means preparing for dips to 25 or so to a variable degree. Sometimes it's frequent, with other games it's rare comparatively. Devs need to get rid of V-sync, turn on TP, and get as high of a framerate as their engine is capable of.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

Worrying news, for sure.

 

[Forsaken82]

Are they? Because they really don't have to. If you're a graphics/performance whore, there's no question that the PS4 is the console to get.

And what games on the PS4 show up the Xbone in such a way that there is absolutely no question it is the console to get when it comes to graphics/performance? Or are you basing this solely on the "specs" and not the actual games that have since been shown?

 

[RibbedHero]

Not every game is an FPS. I'm not saying 30FPS is the end all be all, but 60FPS is also not the end all be all. Not every game requires 60FPS. Is it nice to have? Yes. Is it absolutely necessary? No.

If gameplay at 60fps > gameplay at 30fps, which it always is, then choosing 30fps will always result in worse gameplay. You might think the difference in graphics is worth the poorer gameplay, but make no mistake, the gameplay is poorer.

How anyone can argue that a game plays better at 30fps is beyond me (and probably beyond logic).

 

[Monty Mole]

Do we know if the current PS4 dev-kits are up to final spec?

 

[BobTheSpy]

Hey, console players, developers are probably going to target 30 FPS (and maybe sub 1080p resolution) so they can increase the graphics. I know you don't like it, but it happened last gen, will probably happen this gen.

Of course, buying a PC is always an option for your 60+ FPS needs

 

[Loudninja]

Worrying news, for sure.

Not really sure how it is?

 

[RibbedHero]

Not really sure how it is?

First party developers struggling to hit a stable 30fps (with dips to 15fps and 20fps)? At best they'll reach a consistent 30fps by release, 60fps is a pipe dream.