NSA reportedly bugged European Union offices in Washington DC, the UN, and abroad

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TCRS

Banned
I still don't understand why Germany is being targeted so heavily. Remember that map? Germany had the same colour as countries you would expect to be monitored. And just today Der Spiegel revealed that 500 million calls, sms and mails per month are monitored by the NSA. In France it's only 2 million.

Another interesting detail: The monitoring is mainly concentrated in the south and west, the industrial heartland of Germany...

edit: the map:

boundless-heatmap-large-001.jpg
 

Drensch

Member
The naivete displayed in this thread by the people surprised by this is honestly ASTOUNDING. What did you think intelligence agencies did? Called up potential leads and yelled at them until they gave in like Batman? Geez


This a million times. Is there shit to complain about the NSA? Yes.

This? This is their purpose and I'd hope they do it as much as they can.
 
I'm going to give you a 4m pass and not give you shit you for suggesting that the NSA should look into random bank accounts.
;)

But here's my bigger point, you need to justify those things, and you need to discus whether they're worth the loss in privacy, the enormous costs, the erosion of US international standing with its allies and other more specific harm it may do to US interests (I gave that example many times I know, but I can tell you for a fact that there are companies that don't host their data on US datacenters because of privacy concerns, that cost money to US businesses).
And you can't have this discussion when you do it all in secrecy,

I agree there are trade offs but I can't advocate a completely open discussion, its just not realistic because its very nature limits the options available.

I believe we have a representative model (not direct). We elect people who we feel represent our interests. I don't think every decision needs to be put to a vote we've ceeded some of that power. When things like this inevitably leak out and the public becomes aware, we have debates, we question our politicians and we then decisions what decisions to make (voting for a different guy, protests, lawsuits).

There is line here that's almost, at least to my self very hard to articulate, between what I feel should be public and what isn't. Its almost an emotional thing, I could clearly articulate why everything should be public or why everything should be secretly any thing in-between seems to reflect our personal biases and arbitrary decision making, but its where most of US seem to fall.

And I don't think it being it in secret precludes a debate as the revelations last week (read about it in the Washington Post I believe) about the legal authorization for another NSA program showed vigorous infighting and debate (which the program seemingly being toned back because of it)

I think that people would be unhappy if they found out that the French or the Japanese were bugging US government offices.
This says nothing and is a silly game of "what if it were you". Of course they would be.
But the entire point of the NSA's existence is to prevent these kind of things at the same time they are doing them to others.

The naivety is not understanding the different contexts that people have around the world. As is evident in how your post seemingly address everyone here as if this board was a 100% homogenous US only echo chamber.

Germany was the core battleground in the cold war and the east has history of a governmental institutionalized and comprehensive systems of citizens spying on and denouncing each other. Sometimes the people that you trusted the most. Not to mention a history of government overreach resulting in the most terrible events. So yeah, we're really touchy on what has been revealed.

I'm arguing from the US's point of view. I understand that people have different views. Its not naivety.

I'm very familiar with East Germany and the Stasi.
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
This a million times. Is there shit to complain about the NSA? Yes.

This? This is their purpose and I'd hope they do it as much as they can.
A buddy put a camera in your bed room. It's cool though, he's a pervert and can't really help it. Naive to think he wouldn't.

Yes, I am that bad at analogies.
 

Chichikov

Member
I agree there are trade offs but I can't advocate a completely open discussion, its just not realistic because its very nature limits the options available.

I believe we have a representative model (not direct). We elect people who we feel represent our interests. I don't think every decision needs to be put to a vote we've ceeded some of that power. When things like this inevitably leak out and the public becomes aware, we have debates, we question our politicians and we then decisions what decisions to make (voting for a different guy, protests, lawsuits).

There is line here that's almost, at least to my self very hard to articulate, between what I feel should be public and what isn't. Its almost an emotional thing, I could clearly articulate why everything should be public or why everything should be secretly any thing in-between seems to reflect our personal biases and arbitrary decision making, but its where most of US seem to fall.

And I don't think it being it in secret precludes a debate as the revelations last week (read about it in the Washington Post I believe) about the legal authorization for another NSA program showed vigorous infighting and debate (which the program seemingly being toned back because of it)
You really don't think other countries know we're spying on them?
And my "side" is supposed to be the naive one?

Come on now.

But let's move it forward, here's how I thing those things should generally work out in a democracy -
By default, stuff is not classified, you want to keep something from the American public you need to go through a well defined process that allow you to do it (the criteria should never be classified), and most importantly, the process is reviewable after the fact, so in a few years (there should be almost nothing classified for decades if you ask me) we can go and look and see if we like and agree with those decisions (and tweak the process/vote the people out if necessary).

I personally reject the "trust us, we know what we're doing" approach on philosophical grounds, but I think in the US, there are practical and historical reasons not to follow it even if you're fine with it in the abstract.
 
It doesn't make sense to me that lying would be a good thing to do in negotiations. Why would people trust you if you lied?
This is done in secret, they wouldn't know you were not being honest (and don't narrow this just to lying, its also just not being 100% forthright or even saying something that will elicit a response from the other party)
 
This says nothing and is a silly game of "what if it were you". Of course they would be.
But the entire point of the NSA's existence is to prevent these kind of things at the same time they are doing them to others.

I argue that it does say something. Please re-read my post, because something was actually written down. Empathy is a "silly game".
 

Drensch

Member
I think that people would be unhappy if they found out that the French or the Japanese were bugging US government offices.

I'm sure they would. But they'd be in the land of polyanna-ish head in the sand land of of milk and cookies make believe to think that they don't. Every nation on earth has espionage assets targeted at the US.
 
You really don't think other countries know we're spying on them?
And my "side" is supposed to be the naive one?

Come on now.
I thought you were referring to specific countries programs, and yes I think the outrage shows at least some people, willfully ignorant or not were not thinking stuff like

But let's move it forward, here's how I thing those things should generally work out in a democracy -
By default, stuff is not classified, you want to keep something from the American public you need to go through a well defined process that allow you to do it (the criteria should never be classified), and most importantly, the process is reviewable after the fact, so in a few years (there should be almost nothing classified for decades if you ask me) we can go and look and see if we like and agree with those decisions (and tweak the process/vote the people out if necessary).

I don't disagree too much (mostly time and the fact that everything should be declassified) but these documents from Snowden showed for example an declassification date of I want to say 2030 something.

I think the biggest problem facing the intelligence community and the public reaction to all these revelations is that there has been a fundamental shift in communications with the advent of the internet but nobody is having a debate or had a debate on what this ment for spying. Instead were going of adhoc crisis-lead modifications of laws which weren't written for what people are doing now-a-days, this leads to confusion and mistakes and overreach.

We should have hearing like the Church commission to really question what is the NSA's mission going forward and what its limits are. They don't even seem to know a lot of the time!
Most of the blame I feel can be but on congress who doesn't want to do there job, they defer to these other groups and we end up with political decisions made by supposedly non-political peoples. That's not how the country works.
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
This is done in secret, they wouldn't know you were not being honest (and don't narrow this just to lying, its also just not being 100% forthright or even saying something that will elicit a response from the other party)
Yeah I think we get it by now. There is just a fundamental disconnect here in you arguing framed around negotiations while others argue on moral grounds and ethics.

Nations just like businesses and even individuals need to walk the line between the two and balance them against each other. If you go too far one way, you'll be in isolation soon because no one will trust you. If you stray the other, you'll probably end up being taken advantage of. What has been revealed is to me personally very, very far off the line and I am sure it will be perceived as such by neigh all people in the EU and other NATO partners.

Also, let me leave this here:

Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.
—Immanuel Kant, Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals (1785)

Don't think he was 5 years old when he wrote that either :p
 

Drensch

Member
But that does not make it ethical.

Who cares?


Serious question: is it unfair, or unethical or whatever, that the US has the most power economically, militarily, and in terms of influence?

I ask because I feel like your responses are just that out there.
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
Who cares?


Serious question: is it unfair, or unethical or whatever, that the US has the most power economically, militarily, and in terms of influence?

I ask because I feel like your responses are just that out there.
I think ethical only applies to actions, not circumstances. The ones that care in this case are nations built on moral grounds that they'd expect their partners to be somewhat aligned with I suppose.
 

Zornica

Banned
You really see no value in being honest with your friends and allies?
Not to mention that if you screw countries too bad they're going to walk out of the bad treaties they signed with you (and not to mention they're going to be significantly less likely to get into new negotiations with you).

merricans lost their ability to trust anyone a long long time ago, also as proofen by this thread. (or other threads here on gaf). It's really sad.


[...]Hypothetical example would be a German hacker targeting US targets. But say he's a folk hero and Germany doesn't want to help the US investigate or prevent the crime for political reasons the US would like to obviously know all the information the Germans know to better protect its own interests.

A better example of a ally withholding information would be switzerland and its banking system, or iceland openly discussing the possibility of holding a US fugitive

This is a really lazy 4am example and probably doesn't happen very often between allies (though look at swizerland) but its within the realm of possibility.

And I agree open diplomacy is preferable but there needs to be information if this falls through and if its covert and not known its pretty much harmless covering one's own ass.

never read such nonsense before. so, because he is german, he can't be judged in germany? I see... thats why there are only foreign people in german prisons, right? because germans can't put their own scum away. I don't know about merrica, but europe countries are still constitutional democracies, maybe even more so than the us by now. if someone breaks the law, he will get punished, no matter where he's from nor who benefited from it.

Gemüsepizza;67214551 said:
What are you even talking about? So the European Union and the UN are enemies of the USA?

economically? yes. The US is terrified of loosing their position in the world to europe or china. and actions like these show that pretty clearly.

I still don't understand why Germany is being targeted so heavily. Remember that map? Germany had the same colour as countries you would expect to be monitored. And just today Der Spiegel revealed that 500 million calls, sms and mails per month are monitored by the NSA. In France it's only 2 million.

Another interesting detail: The monitoring is mainly concentrated in the south and west, the industrial heartland of Germany...

edit: the map:

boundless-heatmap-large-001.jpg

see above. economics.

the worst thing about this are people, even in this thread, who are ok with this. If I knew my government was spying on others (and me), I'd want them to stop.
but that kind of thinking was long lost over the ocean and is probably hard to comprehend for americans and their fear machine
 
All this spying and surveillance has little to nothing to do with terrorism. It's all about protecting corporate interests - you know, the people who dictate policies, wars and just about everything else. In the US, the increasingly Orwellian security and surveillance state is using the simple tool of fear to grant itself more and more unchecked power and control under the guise of protecting American "freedom".

And politicians are cashing in the cheques and allowing this corporate coup de tat to go from strength to strength. Republican, Democrat - it doesn't matter - they're both handing massive amounts of power over to corporations who wage war for profit, defraud and steal in wall street for profit, impoverish countries for profit, use child labour for profit, fuck up the environment for profit, and are increasingly trying to spy on everyone to make sure no one challenges their hegemony.
 

liquidtmd

Banned
Government spies on people - "its for your own protection, what's the big deal were not using that information"

People spy on Government - "What the fuck are you doing, you should trust us"

Governments spy on Government - 'this isn't faiiiiir stop spying on us, waaaah waaaah'

You endorse spying, you reap what you sow.
 
Government spies on people - "its for your own protection, what's the big deal were not using that information"

People spy on Government - "What the fuck are you doing, you should trust us"

Governments spy on Government - 'this isn't faiiiiir stop spying on us, waaaah waaaah'

You endorse spying, you reap what you sow.

Yep. Just consider how whistleblowers are demonized and imprisoned and sent running scared for lifting the veil of secrecy and deceit, while bankers and hedge fund managers, who defrauded millions and millions and brought entire countries to their knees, are left completely unpunished.
 
It's ridiculous to see people in here defending these actions like that's the way things should be going. Nope, it's not okay, for me as a citizen of one of the US' closest allies (well, that's what I thought...) to be monitored like we are a fucking terrorist state.
And I'm sure that the millions of people that'll read the Spiegel article (and all the others that will be published) will share my opinion. The good thing is that this will have consequences, federal elections are just 3 months away in Germany, so that's bad timing ;)

Seriously, I can't believe that people are okay with this. All signs (including PRISM etc.) point to intelligence services in the US and the UK being completely out of control and people are like "Duuh, Orwell? Lawl, that's what they are supposed to be doing..."
:/
 
Yep. Just consider how whistleblowers are demonized and imprisoned and sent running scared for lifting the veil of secrecy and deceit, while bankers and hedge fund managers, who defrauded millions and millions and brought entire countries to their knees, are left completely unpunished.

They try to scare other people that would reveal secrets.
 

TCRS

Banned
see above. economics.

Interesting article I found:

The Echelon spy system, whose existence has only recently been acknowledged by US officials, is capable of hoovering up millions of phone calls, faxes and emails a minute.

Its owners insist the system is dedicated to intercepting messages passed between terrorists and organised criminals.

But a report published by the European Parliament in February alleges that Echelon twice helped US companies gain a commercial advantage over European firms.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm published on Thursday, 6 July, 2000

Even back then 'terrorists' was the favourite excuse. Some people might understand now why we Europeans are so uneasy about this, especially Germany. We're being monitored at the same level as Saudi-Arabia and China and they are going for our source of prosperity. Fucked up.
 
It's ridiculous to see people in here defending these actions like that's the way things should be going. Nope, it's not okay, for me as a citizen of one of the US' closest allies (well, that's what I thought...) to be monitored like we are a fucking terrorist state.
And I'm sure that the millions of people that'll read the Spiegel article (and all the others that will be published) will share my opinion. The good thing is that this will have consequences, federal elections are just 3 months away in Germany, so that's bad timing ;)

Seriously, I can't believe that people are okay with this. All signs (including PRISM etc.) point to intelligence services in the US and the UK being completely out of control and people are like "Duuh, Orwell? Lawl, that's what they are supposed to be doing..."
:/
The USA lost a lot of respect from me for doing this.
 
The USA lost a lot of respect from me for doing this.

It's not the USA as a whole, though. This in no way helps average Americans or acts in their interests. This only benefits a select few, incredibly wealthy people and their lackey politicians on the take.

They'll just as happily spy on Americans, curb their freedoms, pervert their political system and squeeze their dwindling middle class as they will anyone else. These people give the finger to average Americans every day - and I'm not just talking about the one that practically goes up your ass at airport security.
 

Zornica

Banned
Interesting article I found:



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/820758.stm published on Thursday, 6 July, 2000

Even back then 'terrorists' was the favourite excuse. Some people might understand now why we Europeans are so uneasy about this, especially Germany. We're being monitored at the same level as Saudi-Arabia and China and they are going for our source of prosperity. Fucked up.

not surprising really. since it's founding, the eu's economic power has been way ahead of the us, and the untaped potential is even greater - there are about 700 mio people here after all. Even after the crisis, it still is, manly thx to germany for the most part.

puting on my tinfoil hat,
I'd even go as far as to say that the us actually initiated the Eu crisis to weaken the eu's position. I can't wait for the day when that finally leaks. could be tomorow, could be in 10 years.
 
This does not surprise me one bit, but i have to say, and no offense to UK GAF, but why the UK government has always have to be so in cahoot with everything America does? To be honest it seems to me that Britain does what America wants it to do. While i know there are several countries that also collaborate with the US, but i doubt that it´s on the same scale as the UK.
 

Savitar

Member
Are people so shocked that nations spy on one another, even their fellow allies? This is the common thing since countries and nations first begun. It's always happened. It always will happen. The reason you don't often hear about it aside from those that later get exposed or publicized is because as you can see, people get pissed. No one likes to be spied on, no one wants to be spied on. But spying brings about a good amount of information and can provide results. But it does go two ways.

One of my favorite stories is how one US diplomat got a gift from Russia, naturally it was examined for any bugs or the like. Such things are routine and everything is checked out just in case. This particular item was found to be clean, and he hung the object which was made out of wood on his wall in his office. It was there for 15 years. And yes it was a spying tool.

The object was crafted with such care and design that the vibrations from people talking in the room would reverberate allowing others to intercept it a short ways away and basically figure out what was being said.

Got to love the crafty nature of man.
 
not surprising really. since it's founding, the eu's economic power has been way ahead of the us, and the untaped potential is even greater - there are about 700 mio people here after all. Even after the crisis, it still is, manly thx to germany for the most part.

puting on my tinfoil hat,
I'd even go as far as to say that the us actually initiated the Eu crisis to weaken the eu's position. I can't wait for the day when that finally leaks. could be tomorow, could be in 10 years.

Another 200 million people are going to join the EU ? I can't wait to see which dynamos of economic development are going to follow after the stellar success of Greece, Romania or Bulgaria.

The idea of the EU being a failure due to American interferance is ridiculous, our politicians are more then capable of doing that themselves. And ironically, the 'we must be bigger then the US at all costs' is what got us in trouble the most.
 
Are people so shocked that nations spy on one another, even their fellow allies? This is the common thing since countries and nations first begun. It's always happened. It always will happen.

Maybe you didnt notice the scale at wich they do this shit. That never happened before. Its not an isolated incident. They do it systematicly and store the data for years.

I wouldnt want to live in a surveilance state.
 
This does not surprise me one bit, but i have to say, and no offense to UK GAF, but why the UK government has always have to be so in cahoot with everything America does? To be honest it seems to me that Britain does what America wants it to do. While i know there are several countries that also collaborate with the US, but i doubt that it´s on the same scale as the UK.

It's almost as if whoever gets to dictate policy in the US gets to do it in the UK as well.
 
puting on my tinfoil hat,
I'd even go as far as to say that the us actually initiated the Eu crisis to weaken the eu's position. I can't wait for the day when that finally leaks. could be tomorow, could be in 10 years.

The United States wants an economically and military powerful union in Europe which can protect mutual NATO interests without American assets remaining deployed to the region. The last thing they want is a financial crisis which will enormously damage the union and wreak havoc in world markets - of which they are a participant.
 

liquidtmd

Banned
This does not surprise me one bit, but i have to say, and no offense to UK GAF, but why the UK government has always have to be so in cahoot with everything America does? To be honest it seems to me that Britain does what America wants it to do. While i know there are several countries that also collaborate with the US, but i doubt that it´s on the same scale as the UK.

I'm in the UK and it annoys a proportion of our population equally.

Speculative, grossly simplative thought:- Were not aligned with many of our partner EU countries on many issues so our Government tries to politically ally itself with the US as a way of hedging its bets.

Trouble is, it just comes across as desperate and makes us look weak in some matters
 
It's almost as if whoever gets to dictate policy in the US gets to do it in the UK as well.

I'm in the UK and it annoys a proportion of our population equally.

Speculative, grossly simplative thought:- Were not aligned with many of our partner EU countries on many issues so our Government tries to politically ally itself with the US as a way of hedging its bets.

Trouble is, it just comes across as desperate and makes us look weak in some matters

I think it´s only because the UK wants to stay relevant on the world politics and influence map. The UK´s economic, political, military powers have shrunk considerably, and UK politicians view the alliance with the US as essential to the UK relevancy abroad.
 
The United States wants an economically and military powerful union in Europe which can protect mutual NATO interests without American assets remaining deployed to the region. The last thing they want is a financial crisis which will enormously damage the union and wreak havoc in world markets - of which they are a participant.

You're giving these bankers too much credit. They don't care about keeping Europe strong. If the various financial crises have shown us anything, it's that it's a total free-for-all, get-as-much-as-you-can-while-you-can kind of situation at that level.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Someone remind me again why we still need countries in 2013 if all these resources are spent on spreading the seeds of distrust amongst people that all have the same needs, desires, goals and fears with the only difference being is that they live in a different set of virtual lines?
 

dramatis

Member
Someone remind me again why we still need countries in 2013 if all these resources are spent on spreading the seeds of distrust amongst people that all have the same needs, desires, goals and fears with the only difference being is that they live in a different set of virtual lines?
Well, the alternative is to live either in anarchy or under the rule of corporations, you're welcome to pick one.

Countries exist to keep order amongst people. If you would like to complain that "these resources are spent on...", you might want to consider that huge portions of budget go to health and social security in the US.

In the absence of an effective international authority, you will have espionage. People might think it unethical, but it has its uses in negotiation. I think it's too idealistic and unrealistic to expect countries to be fully open to each other, because that's just not accounting for human evil.
 
You're giving these bankers too much credit. They don't care about keeping Europe strong. If the various financial crises have shown us anything, it's that it's a total free-for-all, get-as-much-as-you-can-while-you-can kind of situation at that level.

The implication of his post was that the US intelligence services were destabilizing the Eurozone to make it weaker. That is exceptionally unlikely.
 
Are people so shocked that nations spy on one another, even their fellow allies? This is the common thing since countries and nations first begun. It's always happened. It always will happen. The reason you don't often hear about it aside from those that later get exposed or publicized is because as you can see, people get pissed. No one likes to be spied on, no one wants to be spied on. But spying brings about a good amount of information and can provide results. But it does go two ways.

One of my favorite stories is how one US diplomat got a gift from Russia, naturally it was examined for any bugs or the like. Such things are routine and everything is checked out just in case. This particular item was found to be clean, and he hung the object which was made out of wood on his wall in his office. It was there for 15 years. And yes it was a spying tool.

The object was crafted with such care and design that the vibrations from people talking in the room would reverberate allowing others to intercept it a short ways away and basically figure out what was being said.

Got to love the crafty nature of man.


There is a reason why, say, the US used to spied on the USSR and vice versa: they were in a state of cold war, there was little to no reason to trust each other and their respective interests where far apart from each other.
Now one should think that with nations like the US or Germany there should atleast exist a minimum amount of trust. We are pretty close allies, we share many views about how nations and the world should work (say: democracry [also see the theory that democracies don't go to war with each other], rule of law, fundamental human rights etc.), yet the US is monitoring more than ever before.
Yepp, I'm shocked and pissed.
 
I'm sure they would. But they'd be in the land of polyanna-ish head in the sand land of of milk and cookies make believe to think that they don't. Every nation on earth has espionage assets targeted at the US.

But the difference is, the United States have been proven to do such things.
 
In Germany the Public Prosecutor General of the Federal Court of Justice is now looking at this case, and the first criminal charge was filed, more are expected:

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deuts...ft-ueberprueft-nsa-ueberwachung-a-908617.html (German link)

Will be interesting to see what this will mean for the US military bases in Germany. They were criticised before because it is suspected that drone strikes are controlled from there, and because they are also suspected to be important transit points for illegal prisoners from secret prisons, and of course because there are nuclear weapons stored.
 
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