NSA reportedly bugged European Union offices in Washington DC, the UN, and abroad

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Let me put it simple for you:

Since you have no proof that France, Italy,Greece, Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey are bugging US diplomacies you are talking out of your ass. Since you have no proof that France, Italy,Greece, Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey are mass-monotoring US citizens you are talking out of your ass. If this would actually happen, we could discuss how you completely lost your sense of moral and for freedom.

France breached IBM and Texas instruments in the late 80's. South Koreans got caught spying in Australia 2010-13. This is how the world works. Allies spy on allies, it only gets problematic when civilians are caught between the two.

Do you argue that it is justified?

If they were working on U.S. Government contracts then yeah. If it really was to just boost France's domestic industry via corporate espionage, I have a less warm and fuzzy feeling about it. But government to government, all spying is justified. I just don't like it when civilians get involved, that's wrong.
 
France breached IBM and Texas instruments in the late 80's. South Koreans got caught spying in Australia 2010-13. This is how the world works. Allies spy on allies, it only gets problematic when civilians are caught between the two.

Do you argue that it is justified?
 
France breached IBM and Texas instruments in the late 80's. South Koreans got caught spying in Australia 2010-13. This is how the world works. Allies spy on allies, it only gets problematic when civilians are caught between the two.



If they were working on U.S. Government contracts then yeah. If it really was to just boost France's domestic industry via corporate espionage, I have a less warm and fuzzy feeling about. But government to government, all spying is justified. I just don't like it when civilians get involved, that's wrong.



Well they didnt do it with 500 million datasets per month in 1 country before. Its not like they found 1 mic in an office and thats the problem. The problem is that they surveil an entire country and most of the EU.
 
And what is the point of accumulating even more power when both the EU and the US are well off developed regions?
If you're the top dog, you don't stop accumulating power/influence - being complacent is how you let up-and-comers topple your top position. As for why the U.S. would do this to their European allies:

Should have been more precisely (my fault). What i doubt is that the us wants "an economically and military powerful union in Europe". I don't think they want a unificated europe acting like one country.
nails it IMO.
 
I want you to take a second, breathe, and go actually do some research on how states commit espionage. Every single state that has some form of a intelligence apparatus performs aggressive data collection on anything that will hold still. China syphons internet data like a hoover, Israel has HUMINT assets in ever western country and the UK has agents all over the globe. It's not "evil", it's how foreign policy gets made and when governments keep their intel people in check it's only aimed at foreign governments.

Yep, and Germany's BND intercepts electronic communications that flow their country. Sweden's FRA law allows them snatch up foreign e-mail and telephone data w/o a warrant as well.
 
Yep, and Germany BND intercept electronic communications that flow their country. Sweden's FRA law allows them snatch up foreign e-mail and telephone data w/o a warrant as well.

Its tightly regulated. And dosnt compare to this shit. The BND can only check ~15% of mails that cross our border. According to Der Spiegel.

Mind blowing levels of naivete and ignorance on display in here. Thread should have been over at "spies spy ".

Its not spies spy. Its the USA is a surveilance state.
 
I love how this system works, btw. The Sybil System is not too far now, huh?
Stuff is rumored: "Oh, get away from here, tinfoil-man"
Stuff is confirmed: "Oh, we knew it all along, not a big deal, yo"...

People also liked to use the common argument "big conspiracies involving thousands and thousands of people aren't possible, someone would talk for sure".

Of course - now ONE of the many many many people leaked the information, otherwise we wouldn't know a thing. And all the other asshole spies didn't do shit and kept quiet. On top of that all the people that knew about this inside the involved US companies also didn't do squat.

Mind blowing levels of naivete and ignorance on display in here. Thread should have been over at "spies spy ".

Rather New StAsi gonna stasi.
 
Well they didnt do it with 500 million datasets per month in 1 country before. Its not like they found 1 mic in an office and thats the problem. The problem is that they surveil an entire country and most of the EU.

Yep, not disagreeing with you. Civilians, not affiliated with aggressive non-state actors, should be off limits.
 
If you're talking about the unrelated PRISM stuff, you may have a point. But this thread is about nation state espionage, I don't really have a problem with any of that.
I dont care about state espionage when its targeted at enemies. But not against your so called friends.
 
Its tightly regulated. And dosnt compare to this shit. The BND can only check ~15% of mails that cross our border. According to Der Spiegel.

Well yeah maybe since they were busted spying on journalists multiple times:

http://www.spiegel.de/international...gents-knew-what-they-were-doing-a-549765.html

Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has spied on journalists before: In 2005 it emerged that German reporters were placed under surveillance by agents who wanted to ferret out the sources of leaks from the BND. It was a big scandal. There was a public uproar, and the government installed a new BND president, Ernst Uhrlau, who swore to make the service more "transparent."

The latest scandal is like déjà vu. E-mails by a SPIEGEL journalist have been collected by German intelligence agents. The apparent target of the surveillance was Amin Farhang, Afghanistan's commerce minister, who traded e-mails with SPIEGEL reporter Susanne Koelbl between June and November 2006.

...

"The BND president has tried to ease people's minds over the last few days by saying (Koelbl's e-mails) had been caught coincidentally in the BND's net. But it was a deliberate catch. Employees of the BND systematically collected correspondence between a minister in Kabul and a SPIEGEL journalist.
 
Yep. I'm done bullshit hyperbole is in full effect. Especially because said bullshit isn't even an apt analogy.

Of course. Because there never was something like this on such a scale.
This is Stasi's dream. They would have never been able to do something like this back then.

In those days, his department was limited to tapping 40 phones at a time, he recalled. Decide to spy on a new victim and an old one had to be dropped, because of a lack of equipment. He finds breathtaking the idea that the U.S. government receives daily reports on the cellphone usage of millions of Americans and can monitor the Internet traffic of millions more.

“So much information, on so many people,” he said.
 
Wondering when he starts with it

Barack Obama would restore America’s standing, reputation and authority in the world.
As president, Obama will:

• End the Use of Torture and Extreme Rendition. Military and intelligence experts
agree that torture is not an effective means of interrogation, and our using it threatens American troops serving abroad. From both a moral standpoint and a practical vstandpoint, torture is wrong. Barack Obama will end the use torture without exception. He also will eliminate the practice of extreme rendition, where we outsource our torture to other countries.
• Close the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center. Guantanamo has become a recruiting tool for our enemies. The legal framework behind Guantanamo has failed completely, resulting in only one conviction. President Bush’s own Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, wants to close it. Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, wants to close it. The first step to reclaiming America’s standing in the world has tobe closing this facility. As president, Barack Obama will close the detention facility at Guantanamo. He will reject the Military Commissions Act, which allowed the U.S. to circumvent Geneva Conventions in the handling of detainees. He will develop a fair and thorough process based on the Uniform Code of Military Justice to distinguish between those prisoners who should be prosecuted for their crimes, those who can’t be prosecuted but who can be held in a manner consistent with the laws of war, and those who should be released or transferred to their home countries.
• Revise the PATRIOT Act. Barack Obama believes that we must provide law enforcement the tools it needs to investigate, disrupt, and capture terrorists, but he also believes we need real oversight to avoid jeopardizing the rights and ideals of all Americans. There is no reason we cannot fight terrorism while maintaining our civil liberties. Unfortunately, the current administration has abused the powers given to it by the PATRIOT Act. A March 2007 Justice Department audit found the FBI improperly and, in some cases, illegally used the PATRIOT Act to secretly obtain personal information about American citizens. As president, Barack Obama would revisit the PATRIOT Act to ensure that there is real and robust oversight of tools like National Security Letters, sneak-and-peek searches, and the use of the material witness provision.
• Eliminate Warrantless Wiretaps. Barack Obama opposed the Bush Administration’s initial policy on warrantless wiretaps because it crossed the line between protecting our national security and eroding the civil liberties of American citizens. As president, Obama would update the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to provide greater oversight and accountability to the congressional intelligence committees to prevent future threats to the rule of law.
• Restore Habeas Corpus. The right of habeas corpus allows prisoners to ask a court to determine whether they are being lawfully imprisoned. Recently, this right has been denied to those deemed enemy combatants. Barack Obama strongly supports bipartisan efforts to restore habeas rights. He firmly believes that those who pose a danger to this country should be swiftly tried and brought to justice, but those who do not should have sufficient due process to ensure that we are not wrongfully denying them their liberty.
 
Mind blowing levels of naivete and ignorance on display in here. Thread should have been over at "spies spy ".

I understand fury over intercepting private emails or calls without warrants..etc..etc

But this is just normal spying just upgraded as technology gets better. If you think the EU is "shocked" by this for real is incredibly naive. They are doing the same to us.
 
Listen I like Europe (I want to live over there even) , they are our allies (most of the time) but they are not the perfect land of perfect justice and equality whose government never does wrong that their citizens sometimes like to present them as.

Hahaha I didn't even see this gem. Really? You know, I like the USA too. They are our allies (most of the time) and I like Hollywood etc. but they are not the perfect land of perfect justice and equality whose government never does wrong that their citizens sometimes like to present them as. For example they have the dumb habit of starting wars which kill several 100.000 civilians, or their government captures, tortures and kills people all around the world without a trial and without caring about laws. Or they support terrorists and organised crime. They even kill their own prisoners and it's perfectly legal! And the violence in the streets... I think it's a pretty good idea to have every single American under constant surveillance. Please understand.
 
France breached IBM and Texas instruments in the late 80's. South Koreans got caught spying in Australia 2010-13. This is how the world works. Allies spy on allies, it only gets problematic when civilians are caught between the two.

Just looked at some examples of french spying on the US since they were easy to find as the relationship isn't that great when it comes to intellgence.

"Going on at length of his (disdain) of the French, Smutny said French IPR (intellectual property rights) espionage is so bad that the total damage done to the German economy is greater than that inflicted by China or Russia,"


"This espionage activity is an essential way for France to keep abreast of international commerce and technology. Of course, it was directed against the United States as well as others. You must remember that while we are allies in defense matters, we are also economic competitors in the world."
-- Retired Director of the DGSE, Pierre Marion


CIA in 1996
"The governments of France and Israel are extensively involved in economic espionage against the United States, the Central Intelligence Agency has claimed for the first time in a public report."

"Unlike America’s relationship with Britain and other close allies like Australia, the United States and France have a long history of spying on each other. For example, intelligence experts said the French had been particularly aggressive in trying to steal secrets about the American defense and technology industries. For its part, the United States has long been suspicious of French government and business ties to countries like Iran and Syria, and about North African militant groups whose operatives work inside France."
- NYT in 2010
 
AKP, you are a wonderful citizen.

Just looked at some examples of french spying on the US since they were easy to find as the relationship isn't that great when it comes to intellgence.

"Going on at length of his (disdain) of the French, Smutny said French IPR (intellectual property rights) espionage is so bad that the total damage done to the German economy is greater than that inflicted by China or Russia,"


"This espionage activity is an essential way for France to keep abreast of international commerce and technology. Of course, it was directed against the United States as well as others. You must remember that while we are allies in defense matters, we are also economic competitors in the world."
-- Retired Director of the DGSE, Pierre Marion


CIA in 1996
"The governments of France and Israel are extensively involved in economic espionage against the United States, the Central Intelligence Agency has claimed for the first time in a public report."

"Unlike America’s relationship with Britain and other close allies like Australia, the United States and France have a long history of spying on each other. For example, intelligence experts said the French had been particularly aggressive in trying to steal secrets about the American defense and technology industries. For its part, the United States has long been suspicious of French government and business ties to countries like Iran and Syria, and about North African militant groups whose operatives work inside France."
- NYT in 2010

So? We should embrace the US surveillance state because they fuck us and you over for their own interests?
 
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