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[Espresso]

(CNN) -- European officials reacted with fury Sunday after a report that the U.S. National Security Agency spied on EU offices.

The European Union warned that if the report is accurate, it will have tremendous repercussions.

"I am deeply worried and shocked about the allegations," European Parliament President Martin Schulz said in a statement. "If the allegations prove to be true, it would be an extremely serious matter which will have a severe impact on EU-US relations. On behalf of the European Parliament, I demand full clarification and require further information speedily from the U.S. authorities with regard to these allegations."

German Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger "said if the accusations were true it was reminiscent of the Cold War," ministry spokesman Anders Mertzlufft said, adding that the minister "has asked for an immediate explanation from the United States."

The German newspaper Der Spiegel reported that "the U.S. placed bugs in the EU representation in Washington and infiltrated its computer network. Cyberattacks were also perpetrated against Brussels in New York and Washington."

The information came from secret documents obtained by Edward Snowden, which the paper "has in part seen," according to the report. "A 'top secret' 2010 document describes how the secret service attacked the EU's diplomatic representation in Washington."

Ben Rhodes, White House deputy national security adviser for strategic communications, said he had not seen the report and "would not comment on unauthorized disclosures of intelligence programs. The intelligence community would be the most appropriate to do that."

Rhodes added that "those are some of our closest intelligence partners, so it's worth noting that the Europeans work very closely with us. We have very close intelligence relationships with them."

U.S. intelligence officials have not responded immediately to the report.

European Union spokeswoman Marlene Holzner, in a e-mail to CNN, said, "We have immediately been in contact with the U.S. authorities in Washington DC and in Brussels and have confronted them with the press reports. They have told us they are checking on the accuracy of the information released yesterday and will come back to us."

Snowden, who has acknowledged leaking classified documents, is in Russia and seeking asylum in Ecuador.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden asked Ecuador "to please reject" the request for asylum, according to Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has said, "The sooner he selects his final destination point, the better both for us and for himself."

A top Russian lawmaker said Sunday that Russia must not hand Snowden over to the United States.

"It's not a matter of Snowden's usefulness to Russia, it's a matter of principle," Alexei Pushkov -- who heads the international affairs committee at the Duma, the lower house of parliament -- said on Twitter.

"He is a political refugee and handing him over is morally unacceptable," he said.

Source: CNN

 

[Tamanon]

If anything comes out of this, hopefully it means the US revisits how it compartmentalizes its information. It's hard to believe even with a clearance Snowden could've had access to a report of something like that.

Oh and it's still telling that Russia isn't offering him asylum.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Because that is clearly the problem here. Not that the US is spying on the entire world and their closest allies, but that it was discovered so easily.

 

[Tamanon]

Because that is clearly the problem here. Not that the US is spying on the entire world and their closest allies, but that it was discovered so easily.

I know you won't agree, but you're correct. I never see the issue with any country spying on another's government. That's part of what keeps countries talking to each other.

 

[captainnapalm]

Because that is clearly the problem here. Not that the US is spying on the entire world and their closest allies, but that it was discovered so easily.

Crazy, isn't it. People really do get the government they deserve.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Source: CNN

Shocked and furious my ass. A lot of the EU countries were in on it.

 

[TCRS]

Shocked and furious my ass. A lot of the EU countries were in on it.

So Merkel agreed that the NSA can spy on her and on the industry in Germany? I don't think so.

 

[jimi_dini]

So Merkel agreed that the NSA can spy on her and on the industry in Germany? I don't think so.

http://www.privacysurgeon.org/blog/...tor-warns-of-murky-interception-arrangements/

He was particularly concerned about the “sanctimonious outcry” of political leaders who were “feigning shock” about recently disclosed spying operations such as PRISM while staying silent about their own role in global interception arrangements with the United States.

“I can’t understand how Angela Merkel can keep a straight face – demanding assurances from Obama and the UK – while Germany has entered into those exact relationships”

“She’s acting like inspector Reynaud in Casablanca: ‘I’m shocked – shocked – to find gambling going on here’”

...

German political parties at the time of the EP inquiry had fiercely lobbied against claims that their country had colluded with the NSA, forcing a minority EP finding that bluntly stated: “The report by the Temporary Committee confirms the existence of the Echelon interception system which is administered by various countries, including the United Kingdom, a Member State of the European Union, with the cooperation of Germany.”

+ http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm

And on top of that: http://www.buzer.de/s1.htm?a=1-10&g=TKGBDAG which goes into effect tomorrow. "Gesetz zur Bestandsdatenauskunft". Which allows something like PRISM in Germany.

 

[Tamanon]

So Merkel agreed that the NSA can spy on her and on the industry in Germany? I don't think so.

Look at it this way, the NSA PRISM stuff is being done with the tacit approval of the companies involved. So if not the German Government, then the German corporations.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Crazy, isn't it. People really do get the government they deserve.

Hehe, true. "Corporations are people."

Governments representative of the people and the theatre of war.

 

[TCRS]

http://www.privacysurgeon.org/blog/...tor-warns-of-murky-interception-arrangements/



+ http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm

And on top of that: http://www.buzer.de/s1.htm?a=1-10&g=TKGBDAG which goes into effect tomorrow.

Wayne Madsen is no real source. The Guardian had a story with him as a source and they had to pull the story.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...ut-to-be-a-fruitloop-who-thinks-obama-is-gay/

Again: Why the hell would Merkel agree to have the NSA spy on her and the source of Germany's prosperity, it's industry? That makes zero sense. But according to the Spiegel that's exactly what the NSA did.

 

[Half and half]

Again: Why the hell would Merkel agree to have the NSA spy on her and the source of Germany's prosperity, it's industry? That makes zero sense. But according to the Spiegel that's exactly what the NSA did.

I don't know about Merkel specifically, but certainly any country's intelligence agencies are going to be interested in what their own diplomats are up to.

 

[Tamanon]

Wayne Madsen is no real source. The Guardian had a story with him as a source and they had to pull the story.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...ut-to-be-a-fruitloop-who-thinks-obama-is-gay/

Again: Why the hell would Merkel agree to have the NSA spy on her and the source of Germany's prosperity, it's industry? That makes zero sense. But according to the Spiegel that's exactly what the NSA did.

Well, it certainly saves Germany money and allows them to keep from bringing up old memories about spying on their people.

 

[Chichikov]

If anything comes out of this, hopefully it means the US revisits how it compartmentalizes its information. It's hard to believe even with a clearance Snowden could've had access to a report of something like that.

Oh and it's still telling that Russia isn't offering him asylum.

For real, even if you think what the NSA is currently doing is fine, surely you can imagine a scenario where they'll do something unacceptable right?
Now considering they did lied to congress, repeatedly and considering we did have a completely illegal warrentless wiretapping program just a few years ago and considering we're only knowing about those programs because of whistlerblowers, you really think our number one priority should be to make it harder for future whistlerblower to release that information to the public?

 

[Sirpopopop]

It's time to cool down the relationship to the US. Actually, it has been happening for years, this report just accelerates the relationship of my country with the BRICS.

If you think the BRICS are any better than the U.S. you are naive.

 

[empty vessel]

And how could you not really think US interests are not served? More information = better negotiations gives the US a leg up. Whether you feel you share interests with the US government is a different story and I think what you actually care about.

US interests aren't served, because when you foolishly get caught, you lose trust and respect and your capacity to lead is diminished. All for some slight advantage over allies that will probably net close to no real gain.

 

[jimi_dini]

Again: Why the hell would Merkel agree to have the NSA spy on her and the source of Germany's prosperity, it's industry? That makes zero sense. But according to the Spiegel that's exactly what the NSA did.

So she should have told them "no" and in case they do it anyway (which they would have), Germany would attack US? Come on.

She considers US to be friends. So why shouldn't friends spy on each other? That's what friendships are for. And in such case, she could even tell the relevant industry (only a very small part of the industry) that NSA is doing that. Sure, I doubt she also said "spy on me personally", that's what politicians in Germany are actually angry about.

And I already posted the German law changes that will go in effect tomorrow. They will allow something like PRISM in Germany for Germany's secret service.

 

[Escape Goat]

GAF has too many Pollyannas.

 

[Darklord]

"It's not a matter of Snowden's usefulness to Russia, it's a matter of principle," Alexei Pushkov

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

ITT: Ugly America rears its head.

"We believe in justice and liberty! Except not even slightly. Stop being so naive."

 

[jimi_dini]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europe-claims-us-eu-trade

Meanwhile, it has emerged that at least six European member states have shared personal communications data with the NSA, according to declassified US intelligence reports and EU parliamentary documents.

...

The documents, seen by the Observer, show that – in addition to the UK – Denmark, the Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain, and Italy have all had formal agreements to provide communications data to the US. They state that the EU countries have had "second and third party status" under decades-old signal intelligence (Sigint) agreements that compel them to hand over data which, in later years, experts believe, has come to include mobile phone and internet data.

...

The data-sharing was set out under a 1955 UK-USA agreement that provided a legal framework for intelligence-sharing that has continued.

It stipulates: "In accordance with these arrangements, each party will continue to make available to the other, continuously, and without request, all raw traffic, COMINT (communications intelligence) end-product and technical material acquired or produced, and all pertinent information concerning its activities, priorities and facilities."

 

[Diablos]

NSA is very inclusionary. They don't care who it is. They will spy on anyone and everyone!

Equal opportunity discriminators! God Bless America!

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Because information can be contained to only US citizens? The program is made public its not covert anymore.
Lets quote edward snowden:



And how could you not really think US interests are not served? More information = better negotiations gives the US a leg up. Whether you feel you share interests with the US government is a different story and I think what you actually p.

Because the diplomatic and PR fallout if it gets leaked hurts us more than the intelligence helps us

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Because the diplomatic and PR fallout if it gets leaked hurts us more than the intelligence helps us

I dont think the nsa was planning on it leaking. And yes that's always a possibility but you weight the cost and benefit. I'm not even sure I'd approve of what the nsa did if put in the position (I don't know their reasons) but I'm not outraged or flabbergasted. And I have no doubt the US allies sometimes try to spying on for example Pollard

If anything comes out of this, hopefully it means the US revisits how it compartmentalizes its information. It's hard to believe even with a clearance Snowden could've had access to a report of something like that.

Oh and it's still telling that Russia isn't offering him asylum.

Snowden didn't "have access" he broke into and falsified security keys to get access to things

never read such nonsense before. so, because he is german, he can't be judged in germany? I see... thats why there are only foreign people in german prisons, right? because germans can't put their own scum away. I don't know about merrica, but europe countries are still constitutional democracies, maybe even more so than the us by now. if someone breaks the law, he will get punished, no matter where he's from nor who benefited from it.

That's not what I said. But sometimes different countries have different views of crimes and their interest.

For example I was reading something about german intelligence knowing in the 50s and 60s where certain Nazi criminals were, they didn't share that info openly. But let's pretend Europe doesn't break its own rules sometimes.

Listen I like Europe (I want to live over there even) , they are our allies (most of the time) but they are not the perfect land of perfect justice and equality whose government never does wrong that their citizens sometimes like to present them as.

 

[Oersted]

Spies spy.

News at 11.

Spying on ally diplomats. War on terrorism indeed.

 

[Kinyou]

Look at it this way, the NSA PRISM stuff is being done with the tacit approval of the companies involved. So if not the German Government, then the German corporations.

You think the companies want their secrets stolen?

 

[maniac-kun]

Details how they spied on their allies:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-leaks-us-bugging-european-allies

US intelligence services are spying on the European Union mission in New York and its embassy in Washington, according to the latest 'top secret' US National Security Agency documents leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

One document lists 38 embassies and missions, describing them as "targets". It details an extraordinary range of spying methods used against each target, from bugs implanted in electronic communications gear to taps into cables to the collection of transmissions with specialised antennae.

Along with traditional ideological adversaries and sensitive Middle Eastern countries, the list of "targets" includes the EU missions and the French, Italian and Greek embassies, as well as a number of other American allies, including Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey. The list in the September 2010 document does not mention the UK, Germany or other western European states.

One of the bugging methods mentioned is codenamed 'Dropmire', which according to a 2007 document is "implanted on the Cryptofax at the EU embassy, DC" – an apparent reference to a bug placed in a commercially available encrypted fax machine used at the mission. The NSA documents notes the machine is used to send cables back to foreign affairs ministries in European capitals.

The documents suggest that the aim of the bugging exercise against the EU embassy in central Washington is to gather inside knowledge of policy disagreements on global issues and other rifts between member states.

The new revelations come at a time when there is already considerable anger across the EU over earlier evidence provided by Snowden of NSA eavesdropping on America's European allies.

Germany's justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, demanded an explanation from Washington, saying that if confirmed, US behaviour "was reminiscent of the actions of enemies during the cold war".

The German magazine Der Spiegel reported at the weekend that some of the bugging operations in Brussels targeting the EU's Justus Lipsius building – a venue for summit and ministerial meetings in the Belgian capital – were directed from within Nato headquarters nearby.

The US intelligence service codename for the bugging operation targeting the EU mission at the United Nations is 'Perdido'. Among the documents leaked by Snowden is a floor plan of the mission in mid-town Manhattan. The methods used against the mission include the collection of data transmitted by implants, or bugs, placed inside electronic devices, and another covert operation that appears to provide a copy of everything on a targeted computer's hard drive.

The eavesdropping on the EU delegation to the US, on K Street in Washington, involved three different operationstargeted on the embassy's 90 staff. Two were electronic implants and one involved the use of antennae to collect transmissions.

Although the latest documents are part of an NSA haul leaked by Snowden, it is not clear in each case whether the surveillance was being exclusively done by the NSA – which is most probable as the embassies and missions are technically overseas – or by the FBI or the CIA, or a combination of them. The 2010 document describes the operation as "close access domestic collection".

The operation against the French mission to the UN had the covername 'Blackfoot' and the one against its embassy in Washington was 'Wabash'. The Italian embassy in Washington was known to the NSA as both 'Bruneau' and 'Hemlock'.

The eavesdropping of the Greek UN mission was known as 'Powell" and the operation against its embassy was referred to as 'Klondyke'.

Edward Snowden, the 30 year-old former NSA contractor and computer analyst, whose leaks have ignited a global row over the extent of US and UK electronic surveillance, fled from his secret bolthole in Hong Kong a week ago. His plan seems to have been to travel to Ecuador via Moscow, but he is currently in limbo at Moscow airport after his US passport was cancelled, and without any official travel documents issued from any other country.

 

[videogamer]

Listen I like Europe (I want to live over there even) , they are our allies (most of the time) but they are not the perfect land of perfect justice and equality whose government never does wrong that their citizens sometimes like to present them as.

Does this justify spying?

 

[jimi_dini]

Details how they spied on their allies:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-leaks-us-bugging-european-allies

One of the bugging methods mentioned is codenamed 'Dropmire', which according to a 2007 document is "implanted on the Cryptofax at the EU embassy, DC" – an apparent reference to a bug placed in a commercially available encrypted fax machine used at the mission. The NSA documents notes the machine is used to send cables back to foreign affairs ministries in European capitals.

Funny.
They obviously didn't like losing their cables. But getting our cables is fair game.

 

[videogamer]

Funny.
They obviously didn't like losing their cables. But getting our cables is fair game.

Yeah, it's a double standard how wikileak's release of cables was a bad thing but obtaining other governments' cables is fair game.

 

[BeerSnob]

Next you'll be telling me that the FBI hunts people and the CIA is performing aggressive HUMINT operations all of the globe. It's like all these people are doing the things they're paid to do.

Welcome to the gentleman's game of espionage kids, everyone spies on everyone to absolute maximum of their capability. Anyone who tells you something else is selling you something.

 

[Oersted]

I dont think the nsa was planning on it leaking. And yes that's always a possibility but you weight the cost and benefit. I'm not even sure I'd approve of what the nsa did if put in the position (I don't know their reasons) but I'm not outraged or flabbergasted. And I have no doubt the US allies sometimes try to spying on for example Pollard
Snowden didn't "have access" he broke into and falsified security keys to get access to things

That's not what I said. But sometimes different countries have different views of crimes and their interest.

For example I was reading something about german intelligence knowing in the 50s and 60s where certain Nazi criminals were, they didn't share that info openly. But let's pretend Europe doesn't break its own rules sometimes.

Listen I like Europe (I want to live over there even) , they are our allies (most of the time) but they are not the perfect land of perfect justice and equality whose government never does wrong that their citizens sometimes like to present them as.

We are not the only baddies because I bet EU is a baddie also.

 

[childplease]

Isn't this scandal as big as watergate ?

I am actually surprised at the lack of outrage and anger among the American Public.

Why is nobody screaming for impeachment.

 

[maniac-kun]

Isn't this scandal as big as watergate ?

I am actually surprised at the lack of outrage and anger among the American Public.

Why is nobody screaming for impeachment.

For Europe its way bigger then that.

 

[Oersted]

Next you'll be telling me that the FBI hunts people and the CIA is performing aggressive HUMINT operations all of the globe. It's like all these people are doing the things they're paid to do.

Welcome to the gentleman's game of espionage kids, everyone spies on everyone to absolute maximum of their capability. Anyone who tells you something else is selling you something.

I love that " I bet everyone is doing bad things, so doing bad things is accetable" logic.
Let me bet, Iraq should open prisons in USA to torture US citizens.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Isn't this scandal as big as watergate ?

I am actually surprised at the lack of outrage and anger among the American Public.

Why is nobody screaming for impeachment.

Because most of these programs are accepted by the American public. And the ones the polls say are not are not as outrageous as a sitting president using spying and other criminal methods domestically for partisan advantage.

 

[AmFreak]

The United States wants an economically and military powerful union in Europe which can protect mutual NATO interests without American assets remaining deployed to the region. The last thing they want is a financial crisis which will enormously damage the union and wreak havoc in world markets - of which they are a participant.

Not true (imho) - you are basicly saying the US wants to loose influence.

 

[BeerSnob]

I love that " I bet everyone is doing bad things, so doing bad things is accetable" logic.
Let me bet, Iraq should open prisons in USA to torture US citizens.

I want you to take a second, breathe, and go actually do some research on how states commit espionage. Every single state that has some form of a intelligence apparatus performs aggressive data collection on anything that will hold still. China syphons internet data like a hoover, Israel has HUMINT assets in ever western country and the UK has agents all over the globe. It's not "evil", it's how foreign policy gets made and when governments keep their intel people in check it's only aimed at foreign governments.

Also, come on, "torture prisons"? Really?

 

[AmFreak]

Isn't this scandal as big as watergate ?

I am actually surprised at the lack of outrage and anger among the American Public.

Why is nobody screaming for impeachment.

Cause it's the US doing that.
Imagine what would happen if it came out that China monitors the entire population of the USA (that's what the US is basicly doing with Germany).
This thread would explode immediately.

 

[ISOM]

Cause it's the US doing that.
Imagine what would happen if it came out that China monitors the entire population of the USA (that's what the US is basicly doing with Germany).
This thread would explode immediately.

Who says that china doesn't already does that? Hmmm?

 

[Jex]

Next you'll be telling me that the FBI hunts people and the CIA is performing aggressive HUMINT operations all of the globe. It's like all these people are doing the things they're paid to do.

Welcome to the gentleman's game of espionage kids, everyone spies on everyone to absolute maximum of their capability. Anyone who tells you something else is selling you something.

I think there's a slight difference between the common place activity of Government's spying on each other and things like the United States tapping half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Not true (imho) - you are basicly saying the US wants to loose influence.

European depression would hurt the US.

I think there's a slight difference between the common place activity of Government's spying on each other and things like the United States tapping half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month.

Taps is quite a word to use there. Its monitoring business records, the metadata.
And yes I know the metadata can reveal a lot about you.

 

[AmFreak]

Who says that china doesn't already does that? Hmmm?

I don't see in what way this counters my point (Apart from being much harder for china, cause by far the biggest part of the internet is us american).

 

[AmFreak]

European depression would hurt the US.

Should have been more precisely (my fault). What i doubt is that the us wants "an economically and military powerful union in Europe". I don't think they want a unificated europe acting like one country.

 

[Oersted]

I want you to take a second, breathe, and go actually do some research on how states commit espionage. Every single state that has some form of a intelligence apparatus performs aggressive data collection on anything that will hold still. China syphons internet data like a hoover, Israel has HUMINT assets in ever western country and the UK has agents all over the globe. It's not "evil", it's how foreign policy gets made and when governments keep their intel people in check it's only aimed at foreign governments.

Also, come on, "torture prisons"? Really?

Let me put it simple for you:

Since you have no proof that France, Italy,Greece, Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey are bugging US diplomacies you are talking out of your ass. Since you have no proof that France, Italy,Greece, Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey are mass-monotoring US citizens you are talking out of your ass. If this would actually happen, we could discuss how you completely lost your sense of moral and for freedom.

 

[BeerSnob]

I think there's a slight difference between the common place activity of Government's spying on each other and things like the United States tapping half a billion phone calls, emails and text messages in Germany in a typical month.

I agree, intel agencies need tight, tight regulation. They have to be as tightly throttled as Clausewitz said militaries need to be, otherwise they get off mission and end up collecting Hanz and Franz's naughty text messages.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Some people shrugging this off like "Spies happen, that's what spies do" is ridiculous. We are talking about allies of the US.

If this is true, this only demonstrates a serious lack of trust.

 

[V_Arnold]

I love how this system works, btw. The Sybil System is not too far now, huh?
Stuff is rumored: "Oh, get away from here, tinfoil-man"
Stuff is confirmed: "Oh, we knew it all along, not a big deal, yo"...

Alrighty. There is a huge chance that all this will have zero effect on the current leadership of the United States. Which is sickening.

Some people shrugging this off like "Spies happen, that's what spies do" is ridiculous. We are talking about allies of the US.

If this is true, this only demonstrates a serious lack of trust.

Well, if you look at the military spending and the war history of the US, it is clear that they trust no one, they basically handle everyone as potential threats and enemies, and act accordingly. The key line: "protecting their interests". The reason why they helped Britain out in WW2 in the first place. Loans. If I remember correctly

 

[maniac-kun]

I love how this system works, btw. The Sybil System is not too far now, huh?
Stuff is rumored: "Oh, get away from here, tinfoil-man"
Stuff is confirmed: "Oh, we knew it all along, not a big deal, yo"...

Alrighty. There is a huge chance that all this will have zero effect on the current leadership of the United States. Which is sickening.



Well, if you look at the military spending and the war history of the US, it is clear that they trust no one, they basically handle everyone as potential threats and enemies, and act accordingly. The key line: "protecting their interests". The reason why they helped Britain out in WW2 in the first place. Loans. If I remember correctly

It will have an affect to the US - EU relations.