QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
No cancels, cross over counters loose hard knockdown/ground bounce/wall bounce properties.
Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
No cancels, cross over counters loose hard knockdown/ground bounce/wall bounce properties.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Shuma backdash invincibility starts on frame 12 :-(
Professor Beef
Banned
Anyone wanna play some late night Marvel for about 20 or so minutes before I head to bed?
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
In a game with Jam Session? Vajra? Rapid Slash? Beams?
Awesome.
Well it's still marvel
I would but Im trying to beat the last of us so I can give it back to my friend D:
"God's Beard!"
Member
I would, but I'm playing AE right now and I don't know if my connection is working anyway.
Professor Beef
Banned
FINE YOU'RE BOTH FREE ANYWAYS
....
....
So you're effectively giving everyone a burst available whenever they're in guard stun that costs one meter?
DeadPhoenix9065
Member
No mashing jab?
But doesn't starting with the L attack ultimately reduce the damage if say starting with H attack?
If we're talking small changes that can be changed quick, couldn't you just change the percent of damaged removed from 25% to a higher percent?
The more mashing, the weaker the combo would be compared to not mashing. How it is now but scaling to remove damage percent higher, the combos would be considerably weaker.
And with proposed idea of the the no rest on HSD during TACs with the 25% reduction, combo extensions in TACs would mean no easy damage.
...side note I like how some of these ultimately remove the easy factor for beginners.
But doesn't starting with the L attack ultimately reduce the damage if say starting with H attack?
If we're talking small changes that can be changed quick, couldn't you just change the percent of damaged removed from 25% to a higher percent?
The more mashing, the weaker the combo would be compared to not mashing. How it is now but scaling to remove damage percent higher, the combos would be considerably weaker.
And with proposed idea of the the no rest on HSD during TACs with the 25% reduction, combo extensions in TACs would mean no easy damage.
...side note I like how some of these ultimately remove the easy factor for beginners.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yes and if people use them stupid now they will get blown up but they have a more viable use now.
Killa Sasa
Member
Changes are fun to read.
I only lost to Flocker and Marvelo (who is crazy clean btw), therefore I am at best top 16 material for Mavaru. I'll take this sham position, especially doing this after not playing too seriously. Granted, even if I had, those two woulda killed me just as hard. Oof.
Thanks to all the Gaffers I met -- was awesome meeting you! Solar, I really hope you got the message I sent you -- called your hotels front desk and tried to connect to your room phone, but it rang out twice :/ shame we didn't manage to get games in, but i really appreciated the support during my pool dude.
Got nothing left to do in this game, going to go all Gandalf on it now.
I only lost to Flocker and Marvelo (who is crazy clean btw), therefore I am at best top 16 material for Mavaru. I'll take this sham position, especially doing this after not playing too seriously. Granted, even if I had, those two woulda killed me just as hard. Oof.
Thanks to all the Gaffers I met -- was awesome meeting you! Solar, I really hope you got the message I sent you -- called your hotels front desk and tried to connect to your room phone, but it rang out twice :/ shame we didn't manage to get games in, but i really appreciated the support during my pool dude.
Got nothing left to do in this game, going to go all Gandalf on it now.
Karsticles
Member
Alright, so to keep things moving toward the direction of resolution, I want every committee member to have their own list of changes they want from what has been suggested. As we move toward the end of the week, the goal is to make them all look the same. I think this is the best approach, because otherwise we just have people here and there saying that they want X or don't want X, and that's hard to keep track of. If someone has another suggestion, let me know.
Grats on making it so far.
That's true, so I suppose it's not as threatening.
The no L mashing is purely an "on whiff" nerf. It's to prevent things like Magneto players standing under you and mashing s.L into a full combo. It's scrubby stuff. Make them time the s.L. I think that's Dahbomb's thinking.
Gandalf left and then came back stronger than ever, though...
Grats on making it so far.
No mashing jab is only on whiff, when it comes to combos and pressure you still have mashing jab. The reason people want mashing jab gone is because it makes anti airing really brain dead as well as allowing for easier counter on wave dashing/teleporting. So no more Magneto standing under you mashing jab waiting for you to land on it.
About the scaling part, yea I guess there could be a higher scaling penalty after starting a combo from a jab.
The damage change is good for newcomers because they get to survive in a match longer. Some other changes are better for newcomers too like more time for throw tech, more space and easier to survive incoming. If anything Marvel at the mid level is too hard for your average gamer to begin with, most of these changes would actually benefit them. Marvel at high level is probably the most stressful fighting game out there.
Karsticles
Member
I cleaned the list up a bit for easier discussion. I am bolding the ones I am strongly opposed to. I don't have time to explain why right now, but I'm hoping we can all quickly agree that these are not the right direction for the game, or the changes are too extreme for what we are doing here.
SYSTEM CHANGES:
TAC Changes:
*TACs are non-breakable, no meter gain/loss when used, usable at any point in a combo, no HSD reset (basically, make it another combo option for teams).
*TAC system fixed. 20 frame window to counter a TAC that is highlighted by the required TAC. After a successful TAC counter the color of the TAC is shown (this should already be in the game though). HSD starts at 0 after TACs and builds back up to normal in air. Will still keep some characters useful in terms of TAC combos like Iron Man, MODOK, Doom but not give them ridiculous combos. Also TACs are now more like a true mix up in that you can actually react to them like throws in Tekken. 20 frames is just about what a normal human being can react to. This will generally make TACs less desirable than resets except when you desperately need to switch out a character after getting a hit. Also you are allowed unlimited chances to break TACs, no more TAC glitching someone into a guaranteed combo.
*Using TAC'S cost you a meter and you no longer get any meter or get to steal any meter. HSD no longer goes to 0% either but gets reduced by 25% from where it was when you TAC'd. with that people will have to think about using TAC's instead of just mindlessly throwing them out there. if somebody breaks your TAC then you just got to hold dat.
*Honestly I would have just made it so TAC's are non breakable, don't gain or take meter, but have a 50% damage penalty attached to them for the remainder of the combo.
Throw Changes:
*Ground throw techs create slightly more space; techable throw time increased by 5 frames.
*Throw tech window increased, more space after tech and you cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.
*Also you cannot option select a down + forward/back move with throws.You can still OS back and forward moves.
*- Throw tech window increased moderately.
* - Grounded throw techs put a distance of one full character between the person who initiated the grab and the one who teched the grab.
* - Grabs can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.
* - TAC now costs one meter for every tag done in sequence.
* - A person caught in a combo that leads to a TAC from the attacker can pay a meter to counter the tag with their own tag in.
* - TAC combos are subject to hit stun decay the whole way through.
X-Factor Changes:
*X-Factor now costs 1 bar, no limit on uses, only provides the cancel effect.
*XF2 and XF3 values decreased. XF3 becomes XF2, XF2 is XF1.5.
*XF1 is the only X-Factor; timer scales with characters left. Bonuses make up for character weaknesses.
Damage Changes:
*Damage reduced by roughly 1/2 to 1/3 across the board (chip damage buffed to 50% or so to ensure keepaway is still viable).
*Damage reduction by 1/3rd. Chip damage slightly rescaled. Normals chip less than specials. Timer increased by ~25% to 33%.
*Mashable hyper damage reduced to Vanilla levels or somewhere in between Vanilla and Ultimate.
*Assist characters take less damage than before (still more than the point character). Damage scaling applies to them like normal characters in ALL situations.
*- Overall damage lowered to the "Low" setting as per training mode settings.
Combo Changes:
*Cannot mash Light chains on whiff. Can only do it on block or hit.
*HSD timer goes to full scaling faster. This will definitely reduce some of the lengthier combos in the game.
Assist Changes:
*All characters either gain a permanent buff when they are the last character on a team or have a solo assist call option (I've discussed these before at length; they are better than X-Factor on principle).
* - Assists depart with invul frames doing nothing if a combo has been initiated on the point character of the player who called said assist before they arrive on screen.
* - Assists cannot be called during wakeup frames or rolls.
*Assist characters go back out of the game after being comboed faster, less time to continuously OTG loop them.
*Cannot call assists a certain time after throw techs (it's a short window of cool down, this is mostly to prevent throw + assist option selects).
*Cannot call assists at super jump height when a combo is dropped/reset is attempted and cannot call assists during tech roll.
Other Changes:
*Incoming character falling arc adjusted so it's more vertical and less horizontal.. making it easier to block/react to cross up attempts. No more guard break set ups can be applied to an incoming character until that character has touched the ground or has done some action. Incoming characters need more help than this but it's hard to come up with something because if you give too much then you are giving a character like Vergil or Strider more chance to make a comeback.
SYSTEM CHANGES:
TAC Changes:
*TACs are non-breakable, no meter gain/loss when used, usable at any point in a combo, no HSD reset (basically, make it another combo option for teams).
*TAC system fixed. 20 frame window to counter a TAC that is highlighted by the required TAC. After a successful TAC counter the color of the TAC is shown (this should already be in the game though). HSD starts at 0 after TACs and builds back up to normal in air. Will still keep some characters useful in terms of TAC combos like Iron Man, MODOK, Doom but not give them ridiculous combos. Also TACs are now more like a true mix up in that you can actually react to them like throws in Tekken. 20 frames is just about what a normal human being can react to. This will generally make TACs less desirable than resets except when you desperately need to switch out a character after getting a hit. Also you are allowed unlimited chances to break TACs, no more TAC glitching someone into a guaranteed combo.
*Using TAC'S cost you a meter and you no longer get any meter or get to steal any meter. HSD no longer goes to 0% either but gets reduced by 25% from where it was when you TAC'd. with that people will have to think about using TAC's instead of just mindlessly throwing them out there. if somebody breaks your TAC then you just got to hold dat.
*Honestly I would have just made it so TAC's are non breakable, don't gain or take meter, but have a 50% damage penalty attached to them for the remainder of the combo.
Throw Changes:
*Ground throw techs create slightly more space; techable throw time increased by 5 frames.
*Throw tech window increased, more space after tech and you cannot be grabbed during tech recovery.
*Also you cannot option select a down + forward/back move with throws.You can still OS back and forward moves.
*- Throw tech window increased moderately.
* - Grounded throw techs put a distance of one full character between the person who initiated the grab and the one who teched the grab.
* - Grabs can only be initiated with f.H and b.H.
* - TAC now costs one meter for every tag done in sequence.
* - A person caught in a combo that leads to a TAC from the attacker can pay a meter to counter the tag with their own tag in.
* - TAC combos are subject to hit stun decay the whole way through.
X-Factor Changes:
*X-Factor now costs 1 bar, no limit on uses, only provides the cancel effect.
*XF2 and XF3 values decreased. XF3 becomes XF2, XF2 is XF1.5.
*XF1 is the only X-Factor; timer scales with characters left. Bonuses make up for character weaknesses.
Damage Changes:
*Damage reduced by roughly 1/2 to 1/3 across the board (chip damage buffed to 50% or so to ensure keepaway is still viable).
*Damage reduction by 1/3rd. Chip damage slightly rescaled. Normals chip less than specials. Timer increased by ~25% to 33%.
*Mashable hyper damage reduced to Vanilla levels or somewhere in between Vanilla and Ultimate.
*Assist characters take less damage than before (still more than the point character). Damage scaling applies to them like normal characters in ALL situations.
*- Overall damage lowered to the "Low" setting as per training mode settings.
Combo Changes:
*Cannot mash Light chains on whiff. Can only do it on block or hit.
*HSD timer goes to full scaling faster. This will definitely reduce some of the lengthier combos in the game.
Assist Changes:
*All characters either gain a permanent buff when they are the last character on a team or have a solo assist call option (I've discussed these before at length; they are better than X-Factor on principle).
* - Assists depart with invul frames doing nothing if a combo has been initiated on the point character of the player who called said assist before they arrive on screen.
* - Assists cannot be called during wakeup frames or rolls.
*Assist characters go back out of the game after being comboed faster, less time to continuously OTG loop them.
*Cannot call assists a certain time after throw techs (it's a short window of cool down, this is mostly to prevent throw + assist option selects).
*Cannot call assists at super jump height when a combo is dropped/reset is attempted and cannot call assists during tech roll.
Other Changes:
*Incoming character falling arc adjusted so it's more vertical and less horizontal.. making it easier to block/react to cross up attempts. No more guard break set ups can be applied to an incoming character until that character has touched the ground or has done some action. Incoming characters need more help than this but it's hard to come up with something because if you give too much then you are giving a character like Vergil or Strider more chance to make a comeback.
EsotericManiac
Banned
If TACs are that much easier to counter, why would you still have it cost a bar?
Karsticles
Member
Each asterisk is a separate idea for the category. Don't read it as a list of changes right now. I'm just keeping track of everything people have suggested.
Explanations for the suggestions I want removed from the list:
TACs can never be balanced around responsiveness. Either they will always be reactable after a while, so no one will want to use them, or they will not be reactable, which means no change at all. TACs need to become non-random. TACs were non-random in TvC, and people actually liked using them. This is the direction we should go in.
If we are making TACs non-random, this would be very extreme. No one would go for TACs because it would mean a free combo breaker for their opponent.
While I love the idea still, it's too extreme for a patch update.
With damage already being reduced (we all seem to agree on this), I think this is a non-issue.
Too extreme for a patch update.
If you catch an assist, you should be rewarded. I don't see why we should make it harder to punish people for bad assist calls.
20 frames is about the window for Spencer's overhead and people get hit by it all day. Even with this change it's still not that easy to break because it's still a 3 way thing.
It's the closest to a Tekken grab where you have to react among 3 options: 1, 2 or 1 + 2. You can react to and break all these grabs but throws are still used and still landed in high level games... you just can't use them all the time.
As far as the assist looping goes, it's just unfair that characters can keep juggling them after they have already punished the assist. Stuff like Vergil spamming Hightime on assists or Wesker spamming low gun shot is super dumb and it gets even more stupid when someone like Hulk gets full screen juggles. I am not saying to take this away completely but let the assist recover a bit faster.
It's the closest to a Tekken grab where you have to react among 3 options: 1, 2 or 1 + 2. You can react to and break all these grabs but throws are still used and still landed in high level games... you just can't use them all the time.
As far as the assist looping goes, it's just unfair that characters can keep juggling them after they have already punished the assist. Stuff like Vergil spamming Hightime on assists or Wesker spamming low gun shot is super dumb and it gets even more stupid when someone like Hulk gets full screen juggles. I am not saying to take this away completely but let the assist recover a bit faster.
Karsticles
Member
I rarely saw people get hit by Spencer's overhead at Evo. Most people got hit by the Armor Breaker link afterward (lol). The only reason people get hit by Spencer's overhead is that its animation looks a lot like his roll until the hit comes, and Spencer players sometimes roll into c.L and go straight into the overhead at other times. So it's a highly visual mix-up. In actual blockstrings, top players never get hit by something like c.LMH, f.H, which is why top Spencer players go for a lot of command grabs and raw overheads.
Regardless, keeping TACs random is highly undesirable. They are simply not an enjoyable aspect of the game. No one is fond of them, and I do not think that expanding the reactable time is going to help.
I am staying away from the rest of your suggestions until you respond to Zissou.
TACs are random BECAUSE they are not reactable. Once they become reactable they no longer are random. That was the whole point of making them reactable, its not a guess anymore its something that is actually in your control.
People were getting hit by Spencer overhead all day at EVO. Yipes was even opening up RayRay a lot with it. The Spencer overhead is a 3 way mix up itself (or a 4 way in fact): Overhead, low, ground command grab and anti air command grab. That's pretty much what a TAC mix up would be only all components of the mix up are reactable to and thus not random.
People were getting hit by Spencer overhead all day at EVO. Yipes was even opening up RayRay a lot with it. The Spencer overhead is a 3 way mix up itself (or a 4 way in fact): Overhead, low, ground command grab and anti air command grab. That's pretty much what a TAC mix up would be only all components of the mix up are reactable to and thus not random.
Karsticles
Member
I am talking about the top players. When was the last time you saw ChrisG, FChamp, or JWong get hit by that?
Again, IF the TACs are truly reactable, then they are again pointless.
This becomes even more clear if you consider the other changes we might make to TACs. It's clear, for example, that TACs should no longer reset hitstun. Who would risk a 1/3 change of a TAC to a character that gives them very little damage? It would not happen. TACs are only valuable right now for their current trade-offs. If you change the hitstun effects of TACs, you need to rework them fundamentally.
Making them reactable by color is also unattractive for new players. It adds a further layer of needless complexity to the game. Who wants to memorize the colors and the directions? Simpler game mechanics are better.
Justin Wong was hit be the Spencer overhead in the Nemo set on more than one occasion, same for PRRog. I can guarantee you when those ChrisG and FChamp sets get uploaded there will be more footage of those two getting clocked by an overhead. Tekken throws are even easier to break but people get throw all the time. The key to this is that you aren't throwing these mix ups out at predictable times, if you spam TACs all day they will get broken but used at unexpected times and you can profiy from them. That's what smart mix ups are about. With your logic no one would ever get hit by SF4 overheads but people get hit by them because pros throw them out when you least expect them.
20 frames is just within the range of what is reactable by a normal player. Anything lower becomes very hard to react to and anything below 15 is essentially a guess.
20 frames is just within the range of what is reactable by a normal player. Anything lower becomes very hard to react to and anything below 15 is essentially a guess.
Karsticles
Member
By the raw overhead, or by the low into overhead? Because I already explained why the first happens; it's a visual issue. The overhead is not really 20 frames to react to from the blocker's standpoint because it takes a while to understand that it's not a roll.
People get hit by throws and overheads because it's in the middle of the neutral, usually. TACs are different because your brain's entire focus is on surviving the TAC/reset that might come. 20 frames of reaction time for a TAC is not the same as 20 frames of reaction time in Street Fighter. Especially when we are giving people bright pretty colors as indicators.
Even if none of this were true, it would not change the fact that TACs should not exist in their current form. Again, it's just not enjoyable, which is the most important part of any fighting game. They should be non-counterable and rebalanced around that perspective. The Marvel community is nigh-united around this as our second option, with the first being the complete removal of TACs (something I do not support).
"God's Beard!"
Member
low and anti-air command grab are the same mixup
JeTmAn81
Member
In what ways are TAC's random? I doubt any high-level player TAC's in a particular direction without picking it for a reason, nor does their opponent tech in the direction they do without a particular reason. Breaking a TAC requires reading your opponent. Some situations heavily weight your opponent's likely TAC choice (oh, they need meter? They're probably going down) and that should be taken into account when playing.
Karsticles
Member
That's exactly how TACs work at high levels. Thinking about it is a bad idea. There are no ways to read your opponent, because there's no thing to read. Let's take your hypothetical scenario:
Let's say I am player A, and I am comboing player B. I only have half a bar of meter. So player B thinks "ah, he will probably TAC down since he needs meter to kill me". In my head, I think "ah, he recognizes that I need meter and will TAC down, so I should TAC up/left/right to throw him off". But then my opponent realizes this, and thinks "ah, but since I expect him to TAC down, he will not TAC down - I will TAC up". And then I think "But he knows that I know that he knows I want to TAC down, so I should TAC down anyway". And it just goes on forever like this. It's stupid, and in the end there is no real thought process behind it.
The entire TAC system is like going through this every single match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0
finalboss2
Member
i find a lot of the time you can figure out what direction your opponent feels the most comfortable continuing the TAC combo with...for instance if they like to go for infinites.
Unless you are psychic, TACs are a 1/3 guess. It's like playing that 3 cup one ball game only you never get to see your opponent shuffle the cups in front of you. How can you possibly make a "read" on that?
Edit: Wow beaten badly, even with a video!
The video that Karst posted would be more effective if it was 3 cups instead of one and the poison was in two cups.
Karsticles
Member
That's just at lower level play. I used to TAC up with Dormammu every time because I could only complete his TAC while facing the same direction that way. This is because for all of Vanilla, the Dormammu TAC combo was:
TAC, ADDF, fly, j.LH, qcf.L, j.H, qcf.L, j.S
Then come Ultimate, either through frame data changes or just a new discovery, people started doing this:
TAC, j.MH, fly, j.LH, qcf.L, j.H, qcf.L, j.S
The problem with the Vanilla version is that ADDF doesn't let you complete the j.S at the end; Dormammu lands before the motion completes, and the combo drops.
So with Ultimate, people could not TAC up or down to Dormammu, and keep their same direction.
However, recently people discovered that there is a way to do it left/right as well:
TAC, ADDF (crosses under opponent), fly, j.LH, qcf.L, j.H, qcf.L, j.S
So now Dormammu can be TACed into in all three directions, build about half a bar of meter, and not lose your team's facing.
People forget, but this game is still young. Give it 2 more years, and everyone will be able to get full flight combos off of any TAC direction. To me, I don't care about the meter gain/loss. Dormammu can build a whole bar for me no matter what direction I go in with the right assists. A down TAC would give me 2 bars, but I'd rather be unpredictable.
I prefer this analogy because the ending is more true: TACs are poison no matter what when you have to choose. ;-)
Karsticles
Member
I don't know what the standard Phoenix infinite is, but this one looks almost as hard as Dormammu's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Um3A5n4OO0
People are only using the easy ones right now, and they're still dropping those.
Though in the future, people might use this infinite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGAP2MYOg48
Edit: This one needs responding to:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=70773886&postcount=16180
"God's Beard!"
Member
Spend too much time thinking about it and you wind up covered in shit.
No I mean which specific point in his post do you want me to respond to. Because half of the points he agrees with me. The other stuff I sort of already touched upon (like XF and TACs).
As far as the "delay" option for incoming characters.. I like it but without testing it I am not sure how useful it would really be. I would say spending a bar to switch sides would probably be way more useful.
As far as the "delay" option for incoming characters.. I like it but without testing it I am not sure how useful it would really be. I would say spending a bar to switch sides would probably be way more useful.
Karsticles
Member
I like side-switching, but why should it cost a bar? The player with a character on screen already has the advantage of getting to be whereever he/she wants after killing one of your characters. IMO, the person with the incoming character should be given survival tools for free.
"God's Beard!"
Member
That was one of my ideas in my Shonen Jump vs Capcom design document, when the first character dies you hold one of three directions to choose where you fall from.
It's a get out of jail free card then and it puts a shitter on the advantage that the first person got for getting the kill. Less damage overall means he had to work harder for the kill.
I mean if there's no meter to using side switching then everyone would use it to get out of the corner after a kill then fly away or something. Too much of an advantage to certain types of teams, FChamp for example would never need to deal with corner incoming mix ups because all of his characters are fliers.
It's not Marvel without corner incoming game. You lose a character? You have to deal with that shit. At least with a meter consumption, teams with anchor Vergil/Strider/Phoenix have to think twice about expending that meter to get out of the corner.
Let me give you another example. Say you play a zoning Hawkeye team. You killed someone full screen away and you want to maintain that distance. I am coming in as Felicia but Hawkeye is full screen away. I use the side switch trick and end up full screen away right behind where Hawkeye is putting me in a more advantageous situation even though I just died from full screen zoning.
Honestly I think we should just focus on one thing at a time. We started with TAC discussion and now we are on incoming character changes. I think we should just pick a system mechanic and fine tune it for one day rather than trying to address a bunch of them at the same time.
kevo_huevo
Member
Inconceivable!
EsotericManiac
Banned
Also for the record I am completely open to any and all TAC suggestions. I just gave my suggestion and I defended it as best as I could.
I just think realistically speaking the following should stay for TAC: The whole 3 way positioning and meter gain/loss advantage you get after a TAC (or some other advantage outside of meter/damage like Zissou suggested could be HSD). I think everyone agrees that before a TAC happens the guessing game shouldn't be there and people also agree that no one should get absurd combos off of it. The combo part is easy to fix, it's just an issue with HSD... the part that is pre-TAC is the most difficult to fix. I asked for reactable TACs at no cost, others asked for meter requirement on TACs (and make them guaranteed).
I just think realistically speaking the following should stay for TAC: The whole 3 way positioning and meter gain/loss advantage you get after a TAC (or some other advantage outside of meter/damage like Zissou suggested could be HSD). I think everyone agrees that before a TAC happens the guessing game shouldn't be there and people also agree that no one should get absurd combos off of it. The combo part is easy to fix, it's just an issue with HSD... the part that is pre-TAC is the most difficult to fix. I asked for reactable TACs at no cost, others asked for meter requirement on TACs (and make them guaranteed).
racketpunch
Member
LOL you literally just explained what goes on in my head when I'm performing or being put into an air combo. I hate TACs but I actually love those mind games.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Hawkeye/Vergil/Magneto 1 million damage BnB(2 bars) off a slide
3H+A2(EMD) xx Poison Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, 2HS, jMMHS, dash back 6M, 3HS, jHS, Poison Shot xx Gimlet DHC Spiral Swords, j2H, j2H, 2H +A1(Poison Shot) xx Rising Sun, 2H6H xx Round Trip, 2H xx Judgement Cut L, 2H xx Rising Sun, 3H
Archer Demon Dream
3H+A2(EMD) xx Poison Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, H xx Trap Shot, 2HS, jMMHS, dash back 6M, 3HS, jHS, Poison Shot xx Gimlet DHC Spiral Swords, j2H, j2H, 2H +A1(Poison Shot) xx Rising Sun, 2H6H xx Round Trip, 2H xx Judgement Cut L, 2H xx Rising Sun, 3H
Archer Demon Dream
Boo. Unless you're doing law school or something, if you like doing something you should continue doing it. Always next year
.That and..
Don't leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeave
.Maybe they're afraid to drop it and have Phoenix be out and potentially vulnerable? Lots of people love mashing their assist while being combo'd.
JeTmAn81
Member
If guessing a TAC is random, then how are all reads not random? You're making a guess based on what you know of your opponent and how they play. They can always outwit you, but that's the same with any tactical choice. For instance, remember when Mame Spider did the Ultimate Web Throw on Clockw0rk's incoming Strider last EVO, counting on him to double jump and get hit? If he'd guessed wrong, he would've most likely been punished, but he didn't. Just because the outcome depends on your opponent's choices doesn't make it random.
Karsticles
Member
Reads mean that you can develop a historical sense of how your opponent does things. It also assumes you are in a position where there are multiple options that are worth choosing for different reasons. One of the reasons ChrisG can block Wolverine so well is that he knows JWong likes to go for endless instant overheads with him. But the TAC directions are all similar enough that there's no reason to favor one over the other for countering. No one has a "TAC tendency" unless they're bad at the game.
Also, when Wolverine is in your face, the general argument is that you shouldn't be there in the first place. The same could be said for TACs, but that's punishing someone twice for making one mistake.
I was trying to focus on TACs.
Side switching, isn't that big of a deal. Right now, good Vergil, Sentinel, Magneto, and Storm players all force side switches, and it doesn't hurt the game at all.
Either side switching should be in, or assists should be disabled for both players.
Absolutely not. Meter loss was added in Ultimate, and it was a really bad addition. It's part of why Phoenix went to shit as a character.
I think TACs should be used as a setup tool or a 1-meter safe tagout. That gives it two good uses that are both strategic in nature. It leaves TACs in a very usable position, but without really making the game frustrating or forcing people to engage in guessing games. For example, someone could spend 1 bar to TAC to Phoenix Wright to get their Objection in (totally worth it), TAC from Morrigan to a big damage character, TAC to Trish to set up an unblockable, etc. The 1-meter expenditure still gives TACs a ton of uses, it just makes them not stupid.
JeTmAn81
Member
I don't think that's true. Exhibit A is Neo with his repeated double up TAC's when he's down to just Doom and Phoenix and he wants to build a bunch of meter. He does that almost every time.
Karsticles
Member
Phoenix players are the only individuals who have some logic to their TAC game, because that 1 bar really is a big deal to them. An exception though, not the rule.
Reads are educated guesses. TACs are straight guesses. You can try and think it through all you want but unless you are in a specific situation (phoenix team/player that can only combo off a certain TAC direction), your guess is as good as someone who has never touched the game.
That's why I said "or some other advantage" because otherwise there is no real distinction between the 3 TACs other than slight positioning.
Honestly fuck Phoenix right up the god damn ass. If it weren't for that character fixing some of these mechanics would've been a hell of a lot easier. Every time I come up with a decent suggestion (or really anyone else here), it falls flat because "lol Phoenix". It either hurts her really bad or makes her way better, no ones wants either.
Shitty character all around. I mean just think about your own suggestion... putting meter requirement on TAC means that's just yet another mechanic that a Phoenix player cannot use.
SolarKnight
Member
The whole cellphone situation was incredibly shity and it's a damn shame we didn't get to play :|
It was indeed great seeing you though.
EsotericManiac
Banned
did you guys hug it out?
if not, im disappointed
if not, im disappointed
You're both right.
TACs should be just straight guesses with how the system is built, but players still have a tendency to go to certain ones for logical reasons, especially as breaking them is so rare.
For example, I noticed Chris G was more likely to TAC left/right when he had over or around 1.5 bars of meter.
i.e., this'll go round in circles with no endpoint.