Part of me wants Obama to use the 14th though. Minting a coin would be dumb, but using the 14th Amendment to substitute Congressional action for raising the debt limit would be poetic justice. He'd be invoking the Tea Party's favorite thing next to the Bible -- the Constitution -- to end this GOP manufactured crisis once and for all.
Boehner: Nation on the path to default if Obama doesn't give concessions for ACA
- Thread starter TacticalFox88
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Sense... slowly... prevailing...
BU BU BUT OBAMA did it.
It's like they're trying to rally people to their cause, but instead rallying people to dislike them.
Sense... slowly... prevailing...
If anything it seems like the argument that is prevailing is the "They're all terrible." nonsense.
NullPointer
Member
I just realized republicans have been practicing for this shutdown business for months. They tried it on anti-abortion policies and we're too lazy to change their method. Their method you ask? Shutting the whole thing down.
Just shows they have no idea how vaginas or governments work.
Just shows they have no idea how vaginas or governments work.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Mhm. And anecdotally, that's the sentiment I see and hear from people around me.
Which just speaks to how uninformed people here.
njean777
Member
I do not know if people are uninformed. I believe they are all terrible and I know what is going on. TBH can you really state with a straight face that the republicans are the cause of all of the problems in the US? I tend to lean left, but to straight up say that the republicans are the whole source of all the problems is really ignorant as well.
theprodigy
Member
not really, this is basically extortion!
bodyofanamerican
Member
To a point yes, but of course, everyone was going to look bad in this fiasco. Everyone's numbers were going to go down/not be great. The important thing though, is that the GOP is leading the pack by a substantial margin, i.e., "they're all terrible, but boy those Republicans are a bunch of dicks."
Byakuya769
Member
"All the problems" isn't what that poll or this discussions are about.
njean777
Member
Oh just read the poll question, my bad. I was talking in general of course. I do agree the republicans are in the wrong about this shutdown though.
teruterubozu
Member
And yet that is exactly the Republican position.
Most of the things I think about RE: republicans have them on the wrong side of history, at least, over the last 60 years. If they're not causing problems, they're blocking solutions and impeding the rate of progress
They have some good ideas (Medicare buy in, for instance, and a more diversified approach to energy), but the good ideas they have tend to end up being adopted by democrats, at which point, the republicans turn against it. (Now all you hear is DRILL BABY DRILL)
Zoramon089
Banned
No, it's the opposite of ignorant. Republicans ARE at fault. There is no other logical opinion. They keep trying to kill a bill that was already passed and deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court instead of actually focusing on the budget at hand. This "Well they're all terrible. They're all evil, blah blah" is nothing more than an ignorant attempt at sounding informed. Yes, our political system needs changes but if you know all the facts surrounding this issue it's clear one party is at fault
Obama is not even willing to talk to the GOP. I'd call that just as unhelpful as their unreasonable demands.
Sirpopopop
Member
On this issue, it's pretty clearly the fault of one side.
They are trying to break a promise they already made by stating they will break their promise unless the other side gives in to their demands.
Zoramon089
Banned
Except for that meeting with Congresional leaders that HE called last week just a day or two after the shutdown...he's not willing to negotiate over the ACA so obviously any suggestion that includes changes would be a waste of time. That doesn't mean he's unwilling to talk to them. You're trying to equate two completely different things
rocketknight
Member
Why is ignoring unreasonable demands just as unhelpful as making unreasonable demands? I just mean, like, if you recognize that their demands are unreasonable, how do you also think that they can/should be negotiated with?
I've tried, but I live in a very conservative town that refuses the see the world crumbling around them. Even locally. It's like trying to convince a brick wall to be a pillow.
To take this position is to admit that you've been duped.
njean777
Member
I said they were on this issue (after the fact), but I was speaking in general in that post.
This is exactly why the Tea Party and GOP keep winning. Completely uninformed voters.
It's disheartening.
He won the war over whether the ACA will be enacted by his re-election, the Supreme Court upholding the decision, and having 1.7 million more votes than house republicans.
What exactly is Obama getting from republicans? Nothing. Republicans are acting like the spoiled child who you took away their favorite toy because they need to go do their homework. You don't give in any more, you give them a stern talking to and show who's boss.
I should say he's unwilling to discuss any kind of compromise. Say "you want this delay, OK but you gotta give this up in exchange". Hell he can make his demands just as unreasonable if necessary. I honestly don't care who caves first I just want this stupid game of chicken to end so we can get on with our lives.
There is no compromise here.
There is one single man (Boehner), backed by a handful of lunatics, holding the country hostage.
That single man is the only reason the government shut down and the only reason we could be facing a financial crisis.
There is no compromise here. That is terrorist action.
Republicans aren't giving any concessions. I don't think you've been paying attention to how nasty Repulicans have been acting in this ordeal.
Black Mamba
Member
He's been talking to them for 5 years, now, and they've ignored him,
So they take the economy hostage and because of it he decides not to talk to terrorists so now he's not even willing to negotiate.
And the GOP, who are claiming they just want to sit down and hash things out, have refused to give anything in the negotiation. Boehner even said yesterday tax raises are off the table, only spending cuts. SO WHAT IS THERE TO DISCUSS!? There is no offer, this is the GOP lying through its teeth as it's been doing for a long time.
And what is there to negotiate? He's telling them to pass a CR so we can open the government again. They're saying "nope. not unless you agree to defund Obamacare."
InsaneZero
Member
Democrats can't ask for more right now since that would look like they were taking advantage of this situation. Then they'd just be demonized.
Democrats won't ask for less because that's just giving into extortion and encourage the opposition to just pull the same shit again later (see also: 2011).
This game of chicken isn't going to end until the debt ceiling starts to rear its ugly head.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
There is nothing to talk about. When you play ball and lose the game, you go home and practice for the next one.
To steal from Jon Stewart:
This is not a game of chicken. This is one driver flooring it in the lane of oncoming traffic and causing a head-on collision.
EatinOlives
Member
That's not how Republicans have been acting this entire time. They do nothing but demand, demand, demand, and the minute that Obama or the Dems say no they cry about "omg no negotiations".
The House had PLENTY of time to draft and negotiate with Obama. It's too fucking late now. ACA has been officially signed into law. It has been supported by those who re-elected Obama. It has been ruled constitutional by the supreme court. That's it. There's nothing else to discuss, nothing to argue, nothing to compromise. ACA in its current format is final. Delaying it for a year will accomplish exactly nothing, because it's extremely and painfully obvious that if it's delayed we'll play this "game of chicken" again next year to delay it another year, then another, then another indefinitely, and they'll keep doing it because they will know it works.
Roland Gunner
Banned
On 9/12 Boehner asked for the Senate to drop $80 billion dollars in additional funding they voted into the budget in exchange for a clean CR, which Obama and Reid agreed to. Then Boehner said that getting his initial request wasn't enough and he needs more. So why should the Dems continue to make concessions to House Republicans when they don't get anything back.
SteveWinwood
Member
teruterubozu
Member
But those "uninformed voters" fully believe they are more informed than the regular citizen with heavy doses of Fox, Rush, Beck and Hannity. It's like a reality pretzel.
You don't want Obama to cave in. It will set a precedent where policy is determined at a budget planning instead of actual legislation process.
Independent Brony. Can people please stop fixating on my avatar?
The mental gymnastics that these people go through would give a psychiatrist enough material for twelve thesis papers.
Krauser Kat
Member
But there is nothing to get in return. In return we get the government running which is how it should have always been. Its like good job dude if you dont kill that guy ill give my watch, when he shouldnt have been beating up the dude in the first place.
EatinOlives
Member
This is by far the most important aspect.
A lot of the government works through rules of precedence. Do this and this and it works now because it worked before. If this works, it means that from now on Congress at any time can override the wishes of the voters, the president, existing law, and the constitutionality of the supreme court by basically having a sit-in and refusing to work. That's not how government should work on any level.
NullPointer
Member
Compromise now will only guarantee that this happens, again and again.
Congress will use the budget and the debt ceiling to threaten and extort for anything they require at that time that they couldn't get though democratic means.
a Master Ninja
Member
RoninChaos
Member
That's not true. The issue is that no republican has been able to provide any counter points to the questions people have presented that contains any sort of evidence. It's usually talking points that fall apart when asked a follow up question.
The other night some guy from the Tea Party was on BIll Maher, attacking the ACA. He said "You have this bill that doesn't do a lot of things right because it's one size fits all huge bill"
and Bill responded "How can it be one-size fits all if all you do is complain that it's 2,000 pages long".
And the guy just paused and said "That's a good question". These people driving this process aren't using any sort of logic, and that's why I think you won't see a lot of support for the current republicans idea of politics, because there isn't a lot of thought behind it. It's just screaming as loud as you can that the house is on fire while holding a match and a can of gasoline.
I see you're being piled on, so I'll try to be nice here.
Generally in a compromise, one side gives up something in exchange for the other side also giving up something. Both sides trade off things that they want until they reach a point somewhere in the middle that satisfices both sides' preferences.
In this case, both sides (barring a few crazies) want the government to keep running and both sides want the debt ceiling raised. One side has simply chosen to demand a few completely unrelated concessions in exchange for doing something that both sides want, because they think they can probably get away with it due to other side's fear of the negative consequences of shutting down the government or defaulting on the debt.
Here's a way to think about a potential compromise:
The Republicans, after some negotiation, get a half-year delay to Obamacare.
The Democrats get... ?
(If the answer that immediately comes to mind is "they get a CR and a debt ceiling raise," please recall that these are things that both sides already acknowledge that they want)
Beautiful.
Why? The law is the law. It won majority rule from Congress. It was held as constitutional by the Supreme Court. Obama was re-elected vs. the man who said he'd repeal that law his first day in office. It's passed through all three branches of government with the support of the majority.
To concede anything means setting the precedent that, in the future, any Congressional minority that can't legally overturn something they don't like can hold the financial state of the country hostage in order to get what they want. That's why Obama and the Democrats are not negotiating on anything - it undermines the whole point of a majority rule democracy.
NullPointer
Member
Not only do both sides want it, its a requirement for our government to function.
Its not optional.
The Dunning-Kruger effect rears its ugly head.
Or...
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
-- W.B. Yeats
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