sixteen-bit
Member
young haunts
Fighting Games Weekly | Nov 4-10 | I-No what that finger smells like [18+]
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
young haunts
biosnake20
Member
Watching Wao play is mind blowing.
What's the recent Wao footage Ultrachen are going on about?
biosnake20
Member
They're probably talking about his recent Topanga league play.
Passive Assassin
Member
wao bodied ibuki so fray. made the matchup look 10-0.
ShinMaruku
Member
The lack of DOA and Tekken talk on here is disgraceful.
Passive Assassin
Member
they're all working right now.
Ragingnight
Member
The lack of DOA and Tekken talk on here is disgraceful.
Tekken scene is kinda dying at the moment. DOA was never big to begin with. Even FSD was never big. I mean its no longer at NLBC, and there have been weeks where Tekken had lower entrants than DOA which didn't have many to begin with.
3d games just aren't doing as well as the 2d fighters.
KOFXIII v1.2 update's out.
I don't think I've seen a fighter on both consoles/PC that take rage quitting into serious consideration like that
I don't think I've seen a fighter on both consoles/PC that take rage quitting into serious consideration like that
ShinMaruku
Member
A shame because the 3d games are trying the free to play thing before all the others. I just think the fgc has too much dependance on Capcom games. However I think with work both communities should grow to be significant.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
bum stream still going
Art back in the archives again. 3S tournament SHIRUBE 2 (VHS)
http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby
http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby
FormallyFamicom
Member
Can't speak for DOA, but people are playing Tekken, just not attending tournaments. And that's only an American thing anyway; there was just a 700 man team tournament in Japan this weekend even.
Besides, we're talking about forum discussion right? The DOA5U and TTT2 OT's seem fairly active when I check them, so I guess those guys don't want/care to post in here.
Ragingnight
Member
Its not that people are dependent on capcom games, its that the capcom games have a bigger scene and draw.
Tekken has just gotten way too complex to play competitively. This has been mention many times by many of the core members of the community. Way to many characters to get familiarized with, and way too many moves.
DOA was never big because DOA 3 and 4 fucked that up hard. DOA 3.1 (which you had to mod your xbox for) was ok but a majority of the people didn't play it. DOA4 was purposely made non-competitive by itagaki and was easily shunned by the community. To make things worse, the DOA franchise has always been associated with TnA which makes it hard to take the game seriously.
Soul Calibur was always the red headed step child of Tekken. And not only that, SC wasn't good after 2 until the 5th one came out. SC3 and 4 were shit, and SC5 changed so much that it turn off many of the core SC players. It introduce an almost whole set of new characters that nobody gave two shit about, didn't have a good single player to draw in new people and had subsystems that people didn't like (meter, super, just guard, changes to guard impact).
VF was never big in the US soo can't help you there.
Those threads are active but they are a minority. Tekken Zaibatsu is dead compare to its past and FSD was never big. Just look at the tournament numbers (NA) for tekken. They are smaller than they were months ago. Tekken used to be a stable at NLBC, what happened to it? What happen to tekken at WNF? How did it get smaller numbers than DOA? Aris, Rip, Valle and a few others have commented this on stream. People just aren't showing up.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I like the system changes in SCV. I just don't think there was enough of them. Game was half finished.
FindMyFarms
Member
Someone else would have come upon it eventually, tis the way of things in the internet age.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";88812508]I like the system changes in SCV. I just don't think there was enough of them. Game was half finished.[/QUOTE]
I really liked SCV before they took out guard dash cancelling. The game had a very fluid movement system.
Ragingnight
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";88812508]I like the system changes in SCV. I just don't think there was enough of them. Game was half finished.[/QUOTE]
I actually enjoyed SC5 as well. I didn't mind the systems changes, but I just didn't really like any character. I only played the main chick (new sophita) because she was so simple to learn. I did abuse Lexia for awhile with WS great wall or whatever it was.
I actually enjoyed SC5 as well. I didn't mind the systems changes, but I just didn't really like any character. I only played the main chick (new sophita) because she was so simple to learn. I did abuse Lexia for awhile with WS great wall or whatever it was.
Fighting games finally catching up to 10 years ago with these betas. Skullgirls, KI and now SC.
Can't wait to get in the MVC4 beta.
It's weird that now Tekken is the overcomplicated beast compared to VF.
ThatCrazyGuy
Member
Those Japan numbers are good. Do you know if people are still coming out for s. Korea tourneys?
Passive Assassin
Member
no artbook for old q.
FormallyFamicom
Member
Yeah I dig all that. Minority is fine, just saying it's a far cry from *dead*. TZ is a ghost town, but KOR's Tekken Academy Facebook page is where all the cool kids hang out now (half sarcasm). NLBC, all of the Tekken heads in NY said simply that Next Level is just too far to travel and/or too expensive week to week. Fab has been hosting his own Tekken sessions with a variety of folks, so they still play. The ongoings at WNF have been commented on as you said.
Whenever I watch, all of the major names are still attending. They have enough high level Tekken players to fill up an arcade, so I can't say I notice if there has been a drop off personally.
Deckard Cain
Banned
This is just stupid. Too complex to pay competitively? That statement makes no sense. Only simple games can be competitive now? So Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, VF, Tekken, Blazblue, these games should all just die cause they are too complex right? Cause endless depth and replayability and finding something new every time you play the game is bad. Come on man. Starcraft should stop too I guess. Brood War wasn't like the most complex RTS game ever and the most popular e-sports game of all time.
When did everyone get so god damn lazy? Fighting game now need to be reduced in depth to be taken seriously on a competitive level? GTFO of here.
Stabby McSter
Member
The lack of DOA and Tekken talk on here is disgraceful.
capcpcomworld
I was going to bed then I saw your link and caught the sick YSB Hugo parry moment - damn, I need to sleep, but I love 3S vids like these.
Ragingnight
Member
dead compared to its former self. I don't know if the whole "too far to go to". Super Arcade is like the middle of nowhere in Walnut California. I live in socal but it would take me like an hour + to get there WITHOUT traffic and socal traffic is horrible. James Chen/Ultra David live in Santa monica and it would take them about 1 hour as well Hell the biggest pocket of people that live closest to super arcade is probably Alhambra/San Gabriel area and thats a 30 min drive without traffic.
So I can't say its the distance that has been killing them considering they were willing to make the trip before.
I think its just the lack of new people and not wanting to fight the same people you fought for the past 3-5+ years. I believe Rip has said this is one of the reasons as well for him.
The cafeid guys have mention that tekken numbers have been dropping off in Korea as well. I can't find the stream, but I remember they did an interview and they mention both KOF and Tekken scenes are dying.
I mean the big names still play, but the people who quit playing are outnumbering the people who entering the scene. I mean tekken used to be a big game, but it got a friday finals this year at EVO. That should speak volumes at how drastic the tekken scene has changed.
Actually SC2 is suffering from the complex issue as well and their numbers are dying as well. SC2 is not the giant it used to be and their numbers both players and viewers have dropped significantly. I remember the whole EG team were talking about this and how HOTS did little to spice things up to get new people to play.
Also Valle himself said tekken just got to complex to play and that is the reason why he stopped playing TTT2 on stream. Now when you have a guy like valle saying that, what do you think no name pot monsters are doing? SC5 has been dumbed down tremendously. Just look at the move list and see how much of it got trimmed down. Times have changed. This is the age of instant gratification. People don't want to spend time to figure shit out.
ShinMaruku
Member
What he probably should have said is Tekken Tag 2 is too much for new people to jump in enmasse. Right now it caters to it's own little group. Learning Tekken is hard for 3 big reasons.
1.It's a 3d fighter most fighting game players are only 2d and going to 3d can be hard for them
2.You have to learn the eventy Billion moves for your character
3. You have to learn match ups for almost 60 goddamn characters AFTER getting your head around the 3d system and your characters to begin to become competitive.
If you started from Tekken 3 the roster grew in chunks that you could learn more easily so you had no massive ramp to to learning damn near 60 fucking characters as well as your own.
Also Tekken's community is hit and miss you need a robust and affable player base to blow up. Capcom games have that in spades.
Don't go on like Tekken is something easy to get into. It's designed to be hard as fuck for the players and as a result they get very little new people because it's too much for somebody to learn in it's current form and have fun while learning.
Deckard Cain
Banned
This again makes no sense to me. Part of the fun of a game is learning it, learning the system, and making it and your characters your own. Why is this a bad thing? The way you guys talk about it just drives me up the wall. When I picked up Soul Calibur, it was because it was so unique interesting and different from all other fighting games I played at the time. I had to learn how to play a different kind of game and it was exciting and fun. When I was learning SC2 it was one of the funnest times I've ever had playing a game. Are people so wrapped up in the WIN NOW mentality that they can't enjoy the fun that comes from learning a game?
FormallyFamicom
Member
A more simple way to put it is due to the depth of the game it takes too long to get good. Starting out you'll take your beatings in any fighting game, but the amount of characters and moves to learn and unique movement of Tekken takes a long time to digest. In a real grindhouse environment like an arcade you could potentially level up fast (or be a child genius like Speekicks or play the cheapest character in the game like RunItBlack), but we don't have that anymore. It's just not a time investment many people want to make anymore when other new games have a shorter learning curve to get to the delicious high level stuff.
I picked up the franchise for the first time a year ago and it's my favorite fighter to play right now. I found a few guys near my level to play and I have a lot of fun. I have no tournament/competitive aspirations so that's good enough for me.
Ragingnight
Member
Its not a bad thing. But its not going to get new people to play the game. Times have changed. People want instant gratification. They don't want to invent new shit, they want youtube to find the shit and copy paste.
You can see this in many genre. Matter of fact, League of Legends is going through this right now. Many of the top teams have said similar things. Nobody wants to figure new shit out but rather copy paste the meta.
ShinMaruku
Member
You live on this earth and you are asking this question? It's like how most people say they ain't math people even though their brain favors math people are fucking lazy. If you want a game to blow up competitively you have to ease enough people in to convert them into learning the game on it's own. Tekken is the purest "Learn on your own scrub" game out there. It's small community shows the result of that idea.
To everybody who say "Fuck comeback mechanics, fuck this easing in shit let everybody go in raw" Tekken is there for them, their theory is out there in the wild being tested. They can see the results.
I think this is the one that
J won with Makoto and got that double perfect on Kokujin.
FindMyFarms
Member
Guys, the complaint about Tekken (from the tekken players) isn't that it's too complex, but that it's too fucking bloated. There's a million characters with a million moves, and you have to know how to deal with that shit just in order to actually play the game, it's a huge hassle to learn.
In order to get a matchup down you have to know that characters ginormous move list, know how to stop all their shitty strings that aren't good (but you still have to know how to stop them so that you don't get gimmicked out) and you have to know they're 10 strings as well, which are terrible but you still have to know how to deal with so you don't get gimmicked. And THEN you actually learn how to play against that character once you've trimmed all the fat.
So instead of spending a lot of time learning how to actually play the game, you have to spend a 95% of the time memorizing crappy strings so you don't get gimmicked out. This adds absolutely NOTHING to the meta. And it's why legacy knowledge is such a big factor in Tekken, because people that have been playing it for a long time already know all the strings and their hi/mid/low patterns.
Again, this has NOTHING to do with depth or complexity, and everything to do with bloated move lists and matchups as a barrier of entry. It's straight grunt memorization for the sake of it.
This is also why I REALLY love tekken revolution, and why a lot of top players love it as well. Way less characters, and invincible moves means you don't have to deal with shitty strings you've never seen before that only bad players would use to begin with. Too bad it's ftp....it's easily better than Tag 2
Tekkens crush system is worse than any comeback mechanic on the market right now, including um...Tekken's rage.
In order to get a matchup down you have to know that characters ginormous move list, know how to stop all their shitty strings that aren't good (but you still have to know how to stop them so that you don't get gimmicked out) and you have to know they're 10 strings as well, which are terrible but you still have to know how to deal with so you don't get gimmicked. And THEN you actually learn how to play against that character once you've trimmed all the fat.
So instead of spending a lot of time learning how to actually play the game, you have to spend a 95% of the time memorizing crappy strings so you don't get gimmicked out. This adds absolutely NOTHING to the meta. And it's why legacy knowledge is such a big factor in Tekken, because people that have been playing it for a long time already know all the strings and their hi/mid/low patterns.
Again, this has NOTHING to do with depth or complexity, and everything to do with bloated move lists and matchups as a barrier of entry. It's straight grunt memorization for the sake of it.
This is also why I REALLY love tekken revolution, and why a lot of top players love it as well. Way less characters, and invincible moves means you don't have to deal with shitty strings you've never seen before that only bad players would use to begin with. Too bad it's ftp....it's easily better than Tag 2
Tekkens crush system is worse than any comeback mechanic on the market right now, including um...Tekken's rage.
toddhunter
Member
Nobody is saying it is a bad thing, it is just a lonely thing.
You have to be realistic about the way things are. Tekken isn't that hard, there is just a lot of it and you can get much the same fun elsewhere for less effort.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Fighting games have had betas for ages in japan, what do you think loketest are?
Deckard Cain
Banned
Who cares about getting new players to play the god damn games? People in America only play fanboy games anyway. What's the point? It has nothing to do with depth and complexity. SFIV was popular because they brought back the SFII cast after forever and it had been forever since people had seen them and they are "classics", Marvel is popular simply because of the massive reach it's roster has in fanboys, same goes for smash, and Injustice. If you think it's anything else you're crazy.
Despite that look at how simple Injustice is and look how crappy it is. Do you want that to happen to Street Fighter? At what cost? Would you really rather sacrifice a game being good and fun just to be able to say more people play it? Which isn't even the case.
I'd rather fighting games died then for them to become popular and a POS. This seems to be the only genre that feels that way too. People don't bitch about GT6 and say "The game is too hard, it needs to be simpler, less complex" Fuck no. If GT turned into and arcade racer and made it simpler, you think it would sell more?
I'm sorry, I really am but I hate this whole make the game more popular by removing features and content. Be happy with what you have. The more you try to appeal to broader audience the more you lose your identity, that's basic marketing. Men's Warehouse isn't going to change their style, marketing so they bring in more Urban Youths and Women. If they did the probably will alienate a lot of their current customers and they might go else where.
ShinMaruku
Member
All fighting games are hard . Is one harder than the other? Depends on the systems but they are all kinda similar in getting into. (If it was easy to point to them all being similarly easy Tokido and Chris G and Xian would not be so rare)
Tekken's bloat makes the game not quite as accessible. Not everybody will have the time to put down to really get deep into it.
However if you want more people playing the games you will need a better conversion process into the games. Right now it's the same as ever but streams and hype and whatnot has fooled enough people to try it but the conversion rate is about the same with a bigger pool.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Dude is using a baby Gillette razor instead of a hardcore straightedge, immersion ruined
Professor Beef
Banned
MvC3 was a loketest too
FormallyFamicom
Member
I'd play more TR if it didn't have the coin model and the playerbase wasn't so weak. I'm barely competent at Tekken but most of the competition is a cakewalk.
poopninjamvc3mk
I sucked six dicks to get this tag.
Top Tier 3s Artchives are here http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby
Deckard Cain
Banned
Freaking Jin has body pillows.
Why not Bridget.
Cause Bridget is a dude.
FindMyFarms
Member
Seriously. Namco just needs to release an offline versus mode. I'd buy it so hard.
Ragingnight
Member
Then why even comment about the tekken/doa scene dying if you don't care if new people join?
Nobody is suggesting dumbing down the games. People are explaining why certain scenes are dying. Nothing more, nothing less.
You really just seem super defensive and want to protect XYZ game/scene. BTW game companies want to broaden their market. Some would do that at the sacrifice of their core niche market.
Orpheus Telos
Member
Freaking Jin has body pillows.
Why not Bridget.
Why would you ever order a Bridget body pillow when you can have some delicious Jin instead?
Deckard Cain
Banned
And they would fail just like DMC did. It rarely works.
And I am super defensive and nothing I said has anything to do with DOA or Tekken scene's dying but they sure aren't dying cause they are "Too complex" Tekken is dying because it's scene is lazy. I dunno why you would single out DOA and Tekken, all anime games and 3D fighters exist in that boat despite how complex or easy they are. Again proving MY point that your point about complexity being a factor in their popularity is just rubbish. Sou Calibur super simplified itself and it was the worst selling game in the series, died immediately competitively and is total crap, so please PLEASE don't give me this. I never even got to go to a tournament for it.
And no one plays Persona and it's super easy.
Edit:
Also Tekken 5 is considered pretty much by everyone to be the most complicated Tekken and yet it was super popular back in the day and sold like gangbusters. Again it has nothing to do with depth and complexity. Stop pinning it on that.