Sir Griffith
Member
People speak highly of this disc for calibrating:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00462PTDQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Will use it after my tv gets broken in after ~100 hours of slides.
Plasma, LCD, OLED, LED, best tv for next gen
- Thread starter spannicus
- Start date
People speak highly of this disc for calibrating:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00462PTDQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Will use it after my tv gets broken in after ~100 hours of slides.
Would anyone recommend a Panasonic Plasma tv if I am using it as my PC monitor as well as for gaming? Basically my PC is hooked up to my 7 year old 42'' LCD tv and I like the look of the plasma but I will be using it as my PC monitor so lots of staying on the desktop screen. Would I be fine or should I stick with a new LED LCD instead?
lostinblue
Banned
^ No. Plasmas have image retention, it's not an issue and after 100/200 operation hours it should clean up soon enough (depending on how long it stayed there, of course), but using it as a PC monitor is pushing it.
Yea, 100 hour break-in is good enough. I've owned my plasma for 7 years and all I do is play mainly games and have zero burn-in.
lostinblue
Banned
Break-in is optional at this point, seeing IR (image retention) is for all means and purposes temporary unless prolonged improper usage occurs.
This said, there is a huge difference in the time it takes to cleanse a new plasma from retention against one with proper mileage. Break in just accelerates that ideal response and thus it's worth doing specially if the target user means to abuse it from the get go; for TV viewing, as long as you don't watch only one channel, it's fine out-of-the-box.
I have two plasmas right now, the older one is from 2008 and I did a proper breaking in, despite the fact that even back then it wasn't a requirement anymore, the more recent one had zero break-in and actually had abuse from day one (abuse being, PAL 4:3 games with black borders being played at the proper aspect ratio for a hundred hours or so), of course it left lasting image retention that took quite a while to cleanse completely, but I always knew it wasn't permanent (note: my recklessness wasn't that reckless, I'd run the scroll bar every once in a while). Thing is, from that experience I can honestly say that retention took easily 10 times as much time to clean, in the first 200 hours, than it did later on. These days it's really not an issue, 5 minutes can take care of what one hour before couldn't.
Reiterating though, I really wouldn't use them as a PC monitor; on a sidenote: OLED's are even worse at that proposition.
This said, there is a huge difference in the time it takes to cleanse a new plasma from retention against one with proper mileage. Break in just accelerates that ideal response and thus it's worth doing specially if the target user means to abuse it from the get go; for TV viewing, as long as you don't watch only one channel, it's fine out-of-the-box.
I have two plasmas right now, the older one is from 2008 and I did a proper breaking in, despite the fact that even back then it wasn't a requirement anymore, the more recent one had zero break-in and actually had abuse from day one (abuse being, PAL 4:3 games with black borders being played at the proper aspect ratio for a hundred hours or so), of course it left lasting image retention that took quite a while to cleanse completely, but I always knew it wasn't permanent (note: my recklessness wasn't that reckless, I'd run the scroll bar every once in a while). Thing is, from that experience I can honestly say that retention took easily 10 times as much time to clean, in the first 200 hours, than it did later on. These days it's really not an issue, 5 minutes can take care of what one hour before couldn't.
Reiterating though, I really wouldn't use them as a PC monitor; on a sidenote: OLED's are even worse at that proposition.
The Xtortionist
Member
Nocturno999
Member
After an Internet browsing session in my Panny I use the screen swipe function for a few minutes and any IR goes away.
The Xtortionist
Member
Well, S60 is a beast. No real complaints. Picture quality looks incredible and there's no perceptible lag (though that's why I bought it in the first place). I'm using the CNET settings btw. Deep blacks, good colors. The frame around the screen is super-small so there's so no distractions. Plenty of options in the menu to play around with. Played about 3-4 hours of Arkham Origins and didn't see any IR.
Literally zero complaints. If anyone is in the market for a low-lag 1080p plasma this should fit the bill. This was a steal for 700$. And strangely enough, the image doesn't look as garbage as I expected in a lighted room. Low light still enhances the picture (and my settings are meant for a dark room) but it's still watchable in a lighted environment.
If anyone cares, I ordered off of Amazon and the delivery was great. The guys brought it into the room, attached the stand and set it up for me. No complaints there either.
Literally zero complaints. If anyone is in the market for a low-lag 1080p plasma this should fit the bill. This was a steal for 700$. And strangely enough, the image doesn't look as garbage as I expected in a lighted room. Low light still enhances the picture (and my settings are meant for a dark room) but it's still watchable in a lighted environment.
If anyone cares, I ordered off of Amazon and the delivery was great. The guys brought it into the room, attached the stand and set it up for me. No complaints there either.
But it is so small. I have a 42" and it is too small at 8 feet away. I wish North America had the larger sizes.
Had a little adventure today.
Got an email from MicroCenter saying they were selling a 60" 1080p plasma for $599 so of course I went to investigate.
Turns out it is the LG 60PN5300 and I am now sitting on my couch watching it. Still need to calibrate and break it in a bit but for 600 bucks my PS4 will be very happy here
such a massive upgrade from my 5 year old Samsung plasma. Could t be happier so far.
Only issue with MicroCenter is that if you buy it then you haul it. Pickup truck is a must.
Got an email from MicroCenter saying they were selling a 60" 1080p plasma for $599 so of course I went to investigate.
Turns out it is the LG 60PN5300 and I am now sitting on my couch watching it. Still need to calibrate and break it in a bit but for 600 bucks my PS4 will be very happy here
such a massive upgrade from my 5 year old Samsung plasma. Could t be happier so far. Only issue with MicroCenter is that if you buy it then you haul it. Pickup truck is a must.
my Panny Plasma is much older so breakin-ins were highly recommended. Plasmas today don't really need it unless you have the same thing on screen 24/7 which i doubt most people do.
$700? can you link me the one you got?
oh wait, you go tthe 50" right? the 60" is a significant increase in price.
I just got this tv as well, and all I can say is it is worth every penny if you have a dark/dim room to use it in!!!
The Xtortionist
Member
This is awesome info, man. I'm looking to pull the trigger soon, too. Good to hear about the delivery process, as I was nervous about that.
If i may ask, did you do the Amazon (SquareTrade) insurance thing? I'm still unsure if that is worth it.
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
Done! I ordered my W900A today! Should hopefully get it Monday, if not Tuesday.
All that's left to get is Dynaudio Contour S C centre channel, which I'll hopefully have this week.
The Antitype
Banned
You will pry my Panasonic VT25 from my cold, dead hands....
....until I upgrade to a new VT series TV, sometime down the road. Then you can have it.
....until I upgrade to a new VT series TV, sometime down the road. Then you can have it.
Soooo, after months of waiting it's finally the time to buy a tv for my new flat. I am in Europe by the way and I want to go for a 42'' tv around 600EUR or so. I could maybe go up to 700, but only if it's really worth it.
The distance between the couch and the TV is around 2m, so I think that 42'' should be enough. There are lots of windows close by, but this should be no problem as the curtains can make up for this.
I will mainly use the tv for watching tv series / movies from my PC and gaming obviously, as I plan to get a Wii U and hopefully a PS4 pretty soon. Regarding games I used to play fighting games a lot, now I don't have the same time but it's nice to know that when I play a game like SF4 or VF5 I won't be dropping my combos and links all the time. Still, this is far from a primary concern.
From what I 've read so far the obvious choices at this price range are Sony's W6 series and Panasonic's ST60. If there are any alternatives that are worth considering let me know. Any more feedback on those 2 tvs would also be more than welcome. I would also like to know how better is W6 compared to most LCDs when it comes to black levels etc. I know that it won't be plasma good, but still I don't know what to expect from it.
The distance between the couch and the TV is around 2m, so I think that 42'' should be enough. There are lots of windows close by, but this should be no problem as the curtains can make up for this.
I will mainly use the tv for watching tv series / movies from my PC and gaming obviously, as I plan to get a Wii U and hopefully a PS4 pretty soon. Regarding games I used to play fighting games a lot, now I don't have the same time but it's nice to know that when I play a game like SF4 or VF5 I won't be dropping my combos and links all the time. Still, this is far from a primary concern.
From what I 've read so far the obvious choices at this price range are Sony's W6 series and Panasonic's ST60. If there are any alternatives that are worth considering let me know. Any more feedback on those 2 tvs would also be more than welcome. I would also like to know how better is W6 compared to most LCDs when it comes to black levels etc. I know that it won't be plasma good, but still I don't know what to expect from it.
lostinblue
Banned
Actually, for 2 meters viewing distance, 50" is the proper size for a 1080p screen assuming 20/20 vision.
You'll only have a "retina display" (apple marketing ™
that way; "retina" being 300 ppi.
I'm afraid you'll have to bite that bullet soon; they cease production in a few months.
AndyMoogle
Member
The ST60 has high input lag, so you might reconsider that one. The W6 has good black levels for a LCD as it uses a VA panel.
Yeah, I'm at ~2.2 meters and I have a 50" screen. I feel that it's the perfect size for that distance.
Bill Rizer
Member
But that's a bit too much for 720p and almost unbearable if you also plan 480p/i content (freeview tv, dvds, Wii).
I feel perfect 42" at 1.80m exact screen-eye distance.
ShogunDarius
Member
any opinions on this LG TV? http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BS55OW0/ or http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BTG8AR4/
WHOAguitarninja
Member
I would advise against it. If you mostly play games on it it might be ok, but extended web viewing could leave residual images along the top and bottom from the taskbar and url bar.
AndyMoogle
Member
That is definitely something you should take into consideration. I can clearly tell that the Xbox 360 dashboard is being rendered in only 720p for example at my distance. It doesn't bother me too much though, but I can see why it would be a problem for some.
lostinblue
Banned
Might as well drop the full list:
A 32" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 27 centimeters of distance.
A 42" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 67 centimeters of distance.
A 50" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 98 centimeters of distance.
A 60" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 2 meters and 38 centimeters of distance.
A 65" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 2 meters and 58 centimeters of distance.
A 84" full HD 1080p TV is retina when seen from 3 meters and 33 centimeters of distance.
Same for 720p, in case someone is considering a Panny 42/50X60: (great TV's, BTW; specially in europe where there isn't a S60)
A 32" HD ready 720p TV is retina when seen from 1 meter and 98 centimeters of distance.
A 42" HD ready 720p TV is retina when seen from 2 meters and 60 centimeters of distance.
A 50" HD ready 720p TV is retina when seen from 3 meters and 9 centimeters of distance.
It's very helpful, to have those numbers at hand when deciding for a TV.
Actually, not necessarily so. (although your figure for 42" is eerily close for 1080p viewing at said distance)
For starters plasmas are not as crisp when it comes to their pixel boundaries, that means the per pixel image, even if it is 1:1 is quite a bit softer than it would have been on a LCD.
Take the X60's (HD Ready models) they're easily the best TV's in the market for 480p content at this point, an they're never small (they start at 42"). Yet they're not native 480p: they're helped by both their resolution and scaling not having to be tenfold, but also by what I said previously, they have softer pixels.
Trust me... I have one. (well, it's an X50, so it's the 2012 model)
How good? hard to quantify without seeing one, but:
Framebuffer grab:
My TV: (upclose)
This one was taken by day, so you can actually spot some reflection. Still it's very indicative, although the menu configuration is a little different. Look at the letters and the pointer instead, and of course the overall upscale quality. Now imagine the quality from my sofa, I popped that in just for kicks ended up finishing it.
Framebuffer grab:
My TV: (offscreen)
Framebuffer grab:
My TV: (offscreen)
(click on the offscreen images to enlarge) The grain is there due to the fact it was taken by night from a cell phone camera. again, it should illustrate though that the quality is quite up there; and jaggies are hard to be that pressing on this.
Yet, it's a 42" part; these weren't the "holy grail" for Wii owners a few years ago for nothing; they're consistently awesome for 480i/p and 720p. You surely notice that 480p is not 720p, it's just that it looks very good for what it is. The figures above, of course are meant for 1:1 content, so this is a different matter altogether...
They essentially mean, that, if you're 2 meters away from a 32" TV, dot-pitch wise being 1080p or 720p is indistinguishable, or how 4K is mostly a sham providing you're going by the 1080p inch/viewing distance list. And beeing closer than that is usually like wanting to see a soap opera like you would see a tennis match from the first row; happy wry neck pain awaits thee.
We could forego AA altogether, though; but that's essentially natural supersampling done by our eyes (at a much grander cost for the rendering technique/hardware).
I bought the 60" S60 from amazon It was the worst delivery experience I've ever had. The tv was $990 with free shipping, they had a summer sale. It was shipped from a company called CEVA. I picked the option to set up a time for them to drop the tv off. They came late and seemed to be pissed the whole time (10 mins,) they were in my house.
it was raining that day, they managed to drop the box in a puddle in the street when taking the tv out of the truck. Thank God the real tv box was encased in the shipping box. They wanted me to sign for the shipment the moment the box was in the house. I said no and pointed at the amazon shipping paper that states " please inspect the item, if it is damaged refuse the shipment". Then came the sucking of teeth and the rolling of eyes . I opened the shipping box to find the tv box inside while arguing with them. I wanted to open the TV box but they started asking me questions in an aggressive slightly threatening manner. I just signed the paper and told them to get out.
You are rolling the dice with the people they get to deliver your TV. I read some guys will help you set the tv up, even go over some of the settings with you , others will drop thing off at your door step. My TV worked but the delivery guys were long gone before I pushed the power button.
The Xtortionist
Member
Ah, that explains why the PS3 dash looks so much better. I didn't know if the 360 dash was 1080 or not. The ps3 dash was the first thing I saw in 1080p my tv and the boost in clarity was stunning and immediately noticeable from my old 720p set.
Man, I really don't know what to get between a W900 or a VT60. Its not looking likely that ill be buying it before the end of the year, but theyre both just too fucking good.
The VT60 just looks phenomenal, incredible blacks, and the fact that its most likely the final VT that Panasonic will make has me gravitating towards it.
But the W900 is simply incredible for an LED, and the fact that Ill be using this TV as my primary gaming TV has me wanting this more. The W900 with Impulse motion flow reaches Plasma quality in terms of PQ, just a slight advantage on the blacks for the VT.
If this were for movies Id go for VT in a flash, but I just don't want to deal with IR, im way too OCD to want to have to have that shit, and the lower input lag on the sony is nice...
argh...lol
The VT60 just looks phenomenal, incredible blacks, and the fact that its most likely the final VT that Panasonic will make has me gravitating towards it.
But the W900 is simply incredible for an LED, and the fact that Ill be using this TV as my primary gaming TV has me wanting this more. The W900 with Impulse motion flow reaches Plasma quality in terms of PQ, just a slight advantage on the blacks for the VT.
If this were for movies Id go for VT in a flash, but I just don't want to deal with IR, im way too OCD to want to have to have that shit, and the lower input lag on the sony is nice...
argh...lol
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
They essentially mean, that, if you're 2 meters away from a 32" TV, dot-pitch wise being 1080p or 720p is indistinguishable, or how 4K is mostly a sham providing you're going by the 1080p inch/viewing distance list. And beeing closer than that is usually like wanting to see a soap opera like you would see a tennis match from the first row; happy wry neck pain awaits thee.
We could forego AA altogether, though; but that's essentially natural supersampling done by our eyes (at a much grander cost for the rendering technique/hardware).
I'm going to be watching a 65" TV from 5 feet away and loving it.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
For what it's worth, I have a W900 and a UT50 (which was the lowest end 3d 1080p plasma Panny had last year), and use both frequently. Not surprisingly the W900 offers an overall better picture, but since you're looking at the VT, that's not a comparison that is relevant to you. Speicifically to your post, the motion resolution on the UT50 is still a tad better. The slight flicker on the W900 with impulse mode just isn't QUITE as good as the much more solid feeling motion resolution on the plasma. Also, while the black level on the W900 is very good for an LCD, and has never, ever bothered me unless I have the brightness cranked way higher than it should be, the UT50 is still a notch darker. From what I've gathered, the VT60 is another league below both.
That said, after playing lots of Mark of the Ninja on the UT50, I had the icon displayed in the lower left burned into my television for several weeks. And I was surprised how easily i felt the slight difference in lag between the two televisions. The W900a is noticeably faster to me, even though the actual difference is very slight.
I was debating between the VT60 and the W900 when I picked up the W900. Ultimately between the incredibly low lag and not having to worry about image retention, I feel like I made the right choice. That definitely doesn't come without a couple caveats, though. Namely the sublime blacks and motion resolution that a plasma offers.
Yes, there is no question that in terms of PQ, the VT is certainly the all out better candidate. The fact that the entire reason I feel the W900 is great in terms of PQ is that it approaches plasma levels (though falls short)...that kind of says it all...
But it seems you're in the same boat as me in regards to IR and lag...and I do think people here tend to gloss over how much of an issue IR is, I see it dismissed outright a lot when it shouldn't be...
...but yeah...dem blacks lol. They are sublime on the VT haha
WHOAguitarninja
Member
Yeah. I've been guilty of pooh poohing IR as a major issue before, but just recently I had this bout with the left corner on the UT50 and I've had to change my tune a bit.
But it seems like you know what to expect from each, so if you do go with the W900 you're not expecting a miracle it can't deliver (though it can come close).
The W900 really is the best TV i've owned, largely because it's the only TV i've owned that did not come with significant drawbacks. It really is sort of the jack of all trades of the television world.
LiberaTeExInferis
Member
A quick question please..
In responce to my query here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88340439&postcount=2841, I opted for the Samsung LED UE40B700.
But I have the feeling that by going in Game Mode, there is quite a blurriness in the background when I change the camera angle in a game..Is that even possible?
Is it maybe because, due to space constraint, I am sitting quite close to the TV?
Thank you in advance..
In responce to my query here http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88340439&postcount=2841, I opted for the Samsung LED UE40B700.
But I have the feeling that by going in Game Mode, there is quite a blurriness in the background when I change the camera angle in a game..Is that even possible?
Is it maybe because, due to space constraint, I am sitting quite close to the TV?
Thank you in advance..
Ive had one since it came out, ive also got a vt65 i simply wouldnt game on the vt65 ive had it replaced once because of the panel suffering super super bad ir so bad after watching a few hours of sports the sports logo was still visable after months of normal viewing and screen wiping. I game on the w9 exclusivly, it pushes the vt65 close for pq its not as good but it makes up for it in that i can pretty much do with the screen what i like without fear of ir.
lostinblue
Banned
This is expected, does it make a difference though for any games besides fighting games or FPSs etc? Besides this are there any other alternatives that are worth considering at this price range besides ST60 or W6 series? On the one hand I really want to try a Plasma for a change after many LCDs, on the other hand for some reason I feel that the W6 is the safest choice for me at the moment as I know that it will definitely cover my gaming needs (but probably for anything else the ST60 will be better). Any more feedback from people that have seen both TVs would be welcome of course.
lostinblue
Banned
If I were you I'd go for either a S60 or a GT60.
Picture quality is very consistent throughout the plasma line this year, the S60 pretty much just lacking the antigloss/contrast pro filters. Depending on where you mean to use it it might not mean much.
And they have low input lags, those two. ST60 is usable for a gaming TV, and someone shown the real difference a few pages back, but I still think a ~60ms lag is too much not on it's own but compared to better fairing models.
As for your question... ST60 is doable for everything current gen for a few reasons, first off, 3/4 frames of input lag on the TV is generally considered standard (that's 50 to 66ms lag) and thus games take that into account on their "button registing queue", not even stuff like Guitar Hero is that inflexible on timings or the game would be unplayable, there has to be a lucky margin going on. If you loose under those lagged circumstances due to the TV having lag you'll blame the game after all.
The *real* problem is... old school games were made expecting 0 to 2 ms lags on the CRT's, unlike current ones expecting much more than that. Fast "nintendo-hard" shmups in particular can be almost unplayable on modern sets like the ST60 due to their scrolling nature (you can't be pre-emptive in regards to something that is not on the screen yet). That means you have to overcompensate a lot.
You can get used to it, but it also means you'll lose due to it. On current gen games? not really an issue if you ask me, other than a matter of principle.
Picture quality is very consistent throughout the plasma line this year, the S60 pretty much just lacking the antigloss/contrast pro filters. Depending on where you mean to use it it might not mean much.
And they have low input lags, those two. ST60 is usable for a gaming TV, and someone shown the real difference a few pages back, but I still think a ~60ms lag is too much not on it's own but compared to better fairing models.
As for your question... ST60 is doable for everything current gen for a few reasons, first off, 3/4 frames of input lag on the TV is generally considered standard (that's 50 to 66ms lag) and thus games take that into account on their "button registing queue", not even stuff like Guitar Hero is that inflexible on timings or the game would be unplayable, there has to be a lucky margin going on. If you loose under those lagged circumstances due to the TV having lag you'll blame the game after all.
The *real* problem is... old school games were made expecting 0 to 2 ms lags on the CRT's, unlike current ones expecting much more than that. Fast "nintendo-hard" shmups in particular can be almost unplayable on modern sets like the ST60 due to their scrolling nature (you can't be pre-emptive in regards to something that is not on the screen yet). That means you have to overcompensate a lot.
You can get used to it, but it also means you'll lose due to it. On current gen games? not really an issue if you ask me, other than a matter of principle.
FallingEdge
Member
ST60 does? I didn't know that. I was dead set on making it my next tv =/
I am going for a 42'' tv around £600 at most and I am also in Europe.. I think that the s60 is not being sold here (correct me if I am mistaken) and I can't even find now the GT60 on Amazon UK (although I can see it on Panasonic's UK site). Still, I think that my only option is the ST60 on this price range if I am going for a plasma and as I said I am also thinking about Sony's W6 series when it comes to LED tvs.
soulstoner
Banned
Today is my last day to return the W802a for the 900a...
The price difference in Canada is about $900 between the two. Is the 900a that much of an improvement over the 802a? $900 worth?
I'll be playing PS4 and XBOX on this TV.
The price difference in Canada is about $900 between the two. Is the 900a that much of an improvement over the 802a? $900 worth?
I'll be playing PS4 and XBOX on this TV.
Bill Rizer
Member
I'll add, he (like me) might even like it better without the filter, in a light controlled environment. My UT50 may give something on black levels to st/gt/vt but it's glossy picture
is so brilliant and popping, I really love it.
I pulled the trigger and ordered the W6 from John Lewis with 5 years warranty. I mainly got a Led over Plasma, due to burn in as my computer will be connected also as well as not wanting hue power consumption that a Plasma usually has.
I bought a 65" S64 the same set as the S60, but includes the Infinite Black Pro AR filter but shipping ended up delayed until next Friday. No new TV to herald the arrival of the PS4.
The delay made me second guess my choice a little, since I really wanted a W900a, but I sit about 8 feet away from the TV, and 55" will not be worth the upgrade expense.
The delay made me second guess my choice a little, since I really wanted a W900a, but I sit about 8 feet away from the TV, and 55" will not be worth the upgrade expense.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
I haven't seen the the 802 in person, but the 900a uses a true RGB backlighting system, rather than an array of white LEDs like most screens. The colors that come out of the W900 really need to be seen to be appreciated.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Is there any way to find out the input lag of my TV? From what I can tell it has an 8ms pixel replacement rate but I can't find anything about the input lag.
It is a 32" 1080p (advertised as 720p because cable) RCA L32HD31R LCD TV from 2009.
It is a 32" 1080p (advertised as 720p because cable) RCA L32HD31R LCD TV from 2009.