Devolution
Member
Bro you have this thing called understanding social cues, what did I tell you about that?
IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
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Bro you have this thing called understanding social cues, what did I tell you about that?
Well you could like read the thread and you would have answers to some of your questions.
This thread reminds me that today, while I was walking around downtown, I saw an instance of street harassment (which I always hear a lot about but rarely see, being a dude). I was walking along behind this guy with suspenders and a hipster beard when a girl walked past (this was a pretty busy sidewalk and I'm not entirely sure why she got singled out). He just opened a conversation with "Hi, you're so beautiful" or something like that and made a 180 degree turn to follow along behind her, continuing to talk at her as she basically refused to acknowledge him at all. I was sufficiently taken aback that they were a good 20 feet away (she had just kept walking, and maybe sped up a bit) by the time I thought to say anything; I do wish I'd had the presence of mind to at least loudly comment on the creepiness of it, add some social pressure or something.
The wrongness of the interaction was just so obvious - I felt incredibly uncomfortable just as an observer - that it strikes me as absolutely absurd to think that anything less than an enthusiastic response grants a license to continue. Really that's just a terrible thing to do to a random person on the street in the first place. And I'm getting that same feeling looking at these Facebook messages. This is so egregiously creepy that surely we are well past the point where the recipient has any obligation at all to punch through the awkwardness with some active rejection.
The wrongness of the interaction was just so obvious - I felt incredibly uncomfortable just as an observer - that it strikes me as absolutely absurd to think that anything less than an enthusiastic response grants a license to continue. Really that's just a terrible thing to do to a random person on the street in the first place. And I'm getting that same feeling looking at these Facebook messages. This is so egregiously creepy that surely we are well past the point where the recipient has any obligation at all to punch through the awkwardness with some active rejection.
oh
JAFFE WHY
Okay. You got your point across.
Did you read his last comment?
XANDER CAGE
Member
Dude. There is nothing to read between the lines. David Jaffe said in one of his tweets that she didn't keep it professional. That's not between the lines, those are the lines.
ohbabyitsken
Banned
hello ma'am
i would very much like to tell you i want to fuck you, on the off chance that you may enjoy such a thing.
That sometimes works though depending on your looks.
"So uh, I once read an article on the internet that suggested you might be vulnerable and looking for validation right now....".
Sorry. I need you to spell this sort of thing out very clearly, I'm not a mind reader.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Yes, but that's the thing. Context.
Apparently this is the un-blurred version:
http://i.imgur.com/4k00SJx.png
edit: oops, didn't see the updated OP.
http://i.imgur.com/4k00SJx.png
edit: oops, didn't see the updated OP.
Riposte
Member
I'm losing track of this conversation. Is she being accused of giving him rope to hang himself with or something? Like should she not have posted the images? I think maybe people want to say what he did isn't unforgivable, wrong, but not lynch worthy, but they (e.g., Jaffe) are going about it in the worst way. When you try to explain circumstance, you make it sound like you are shifting blame. Doing it aggressively makes this even worse.
If you want to others to keep perspective then instead of saying she could have prevented something that is ultimately his doing, it should be said that he the error he made was a human one and not one which resulted in great harm - something that can be apologized for in words.
If you want to others to keep perspective then instead of saying she could have prevented something that is ultimately his doing, it should be said that he the error he made was a human one and not one which resulted in great harm - something that can be apologized for in words.
He should stop tweeting until then.
Devolution
Member
But there is some nuance here if for whatever reason you don't think social cues are a thing or you're more likely to empathize with the guy crossing the line.
But if he reads the thread how will he cry foul about those yucky social justice warriors who expect basic emotional intelligence and mutual respect?
Fotheringay
Member
You can follow that line of reasoning out to an extreme though. Just being a victim doesn't give you carte blanche to respond however you want. In this situation I think she responded fine, attempt to passively defuse the situation by not responding to the inappropriate sexual comments. Apparently afterwards a friend of hers suggested posting these comments for the public, as it does seem to be a problem in this industry, and exposing something like this can help correct that attitude. I don't think the guy should lose his career in the industry forever, but a hefty fucking timeout isn't beyond reasonable IMO.
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
This is too perfect. The foreshadowing makes it feel like a parody recorded after the events - but it's real.
Well like I said, you could enlighten me, since this thread is now mostly about some other dude and what he tweets.
The empathy is the part that always scares me the most. Feeling sorry for someone who is being a creeper because they got shot down just seems all kinds of wrong.
Looks are important but there are other factors too, like context. Saying "Hey wanna fuck" is more appropriate in a bar or to someone that may already like you than say, the workplace obviously.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I'm guessing [URL="http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/877458309/indie-statik]the people that funded the kickstarter for his entire website (indiestalk)[/URL] might not have if they knew this was the type of man they were giving their money to.
Well said alex.
If something I learned with the years is that ppl have different reactions to being drunked. Some really nice ppl can become assholes with alcohol in their blood. Also add depression to the mix and someone can reach that lows.
Going "I'm still a perfectly human being when drunked" is cool, but is not the same for 100% of people, even more when you consider the hole this person seems to be in.
Or you could spend time reading the thread and not expect people to spoonfeed you information like a baby.
Quadraphonic
Member
Jaffe went on to say that sexual harassment is defined by being undesired, so the fact that she didn't shut it down after the first message means that it's not harassment.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I do at least have to give this guy credit for one thing. "Have a great Sunday" is up there with "please respond" for pathetic hilarious thirst backpedals.
I feel like we've crossed the fourth wall somehow.
Jaffe went on to say that sexual harassment is defined by being undesired, so the fact that she didn't shut it down after the first message means that it's not harassment.
I would think that the complete lack of acknowledgement multiple times is a clear as day signal that it was unwanted.
Intheflorsh
Banned
http://imnotforeveryone.tumblr.com/
Some insights into Josh's behavior. He apparently didn't pick up on the "red light".
Some insights into Josh's behavior. He apparently didn't pick up on the "red light".
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
And some of the Internet Social Activism has been pretty questionable and, worse, trivializing real issues (like Leigh Alexander bringing the "why people hated that I got drunk SEXISM" at the spotlight in every single opportunity).
Thats why I see a problem that somebody tries to be an asshole for "a greater cause". Ends doesn't justifies the means, and all.
Devolution
Member
And yet it continually happens. There was a thread about a cop who went out of his way to look up a woman's address and leave a note on her car. And his actions were defended and not lauded as creepy. There are some people who will totally ignore the wishes and boundaries of others or sympathize with someone doing the same. I wish there weren't but it's a given, especially on the internet.
I don't think her actions were bad or wrong considering the situation he put her in but I am curious why not first tell him to stop then follow it up with taking it to the internet if any inappropriate behavior continues or if she feels her job has been damaged by turning down the advances of a member of the press.
I wouldnt be surprised if some people assumed that what happened here. The fact is that she probably panicked because sexual harassment on a professional environment is something real to her but not to most men and someone out there was going to criticize her reaction and put some of the weight on the blame to her.
It must be really jarring to her to see that this person is the guy that made God of War, a potential co-worker is actually putting a small part of the blame (1% is too much) on what happened to her, that pretty much justifies her initial measured response.
"I tell you why, Twisted Metal, February 14th — Valentine's Day — it's a great, great romantic gift, if you have a lady friend and she really wants to know the best game ever, and she will give you a fucking blowjob, if you play this game. If you let her win Twisted Metal split screen, she will suck your dick."-Jaffe
It honestly didnt bother me that much back then, but couple that comment with this comments and its hard to file this into the "Dumb shit you say in panic" file.
John Kowalski
Banned
Oh dear, what a fumble. Well i hope he has learned from this and has chosen to up and fix whatever he believes is veering him towards such behavior.
(;_
7
oh
(;_
7I have no idea why you are responding back when you have nothing to say.
For better or worse, David Jaffe says exactly what is on his mind. He doesn't care about who he offends.
NullPointer
Member
So you think Jaffe thinks the guy *was* being professional? I don't. I read those tweets as it being presumed the guy was a shithead and that we could all agree on that, and that David was advising being forthright about the line being crossed. And communicating that. And thinking that would be not only a good thing to do (as something he would teach his kids) but a professional thing to do as well, as in: applicable advice for when something like this happens in the business sphere.
I think it can be read in the worst possible way too, thats also a possibility. Its not the one I'm assuming though.
Dice//
Banned
Would you keep asking if you could simply KISS a woman (on the cheek) let alone her vagina? Or would you take the hint?
Hey....heeeeey...can I kiss you?
Can I?
...I'm good at it.
Please?
Lemme kiss you.
Can I?
Sometimes what isn't said matters.
groovygamer
Banned
the 4th wall has been broken with his dickfist
She didn't upload the tweets, her friend did. She initially just sent the convo to her friend with both names blurred. I'm not sure where you got the whole "I'm embarrassed to be part of X,Y,Z group" bullshit! thing from. Since I haven't really seen those posts in this thread.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
tl;dr version: "Serial Killers are not bothered by other serial killers."
Murder. She Wrote
Member
And if she said "Fuck off" or "Leave me alone" or even "No thanks" He'd probably leave and think she's a bitch or even say it to her face. Or the the small potentiality that he would escalate the harassment.
That one almost seems like someone trying to copy some fantasy from a romcom and doing it in the worst way possible.
Jaffe says something that pisses people off every few months. I know he means well but he is not good with words or getting his point across. I usually agree with the eventual blog post he writes explaining what he actually meant but his Twitter/Bonus Round comments are always off the cuff and not thought out well.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
If it's the same one I read I hardly think that's grounds for a banning. But hey I'm not a mod
Dice//
Banned
The image in my mind right now.....
I have no idea why you replied in a thread you basically didn't read at all and yet still wrote up some uninformed "What's the big deal here, guys?" dross.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
If the woman turns away and ignores you the answer is pretty obvious either way
bistromathics
facing a bright new dawn
Oh god I hope this is facetious.
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