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[Amikami]

Let me have some fun.

Realistically speaking, they have no reason to murder (because that's what it was) the Saviors in the compound:

1) Sure, one of their groups ambushed them. But Daryl had "stolen" their truck.
2) Even if not, they could be a renegade faction, not representing the ideals of the rest.
3) Furthermore, -technically-, they were not there to kill them, just to capture and bring them to Negan. Whom as far as they knew, could have just forgiven and released them.
4) They self-inserted on a conflict between the Saviors and Hilltop. You can argue many things, but the reality is that it wasn't their conflict.
5) For all they know, Hilltop could be the bad guys, and the ones that started the conflict with the Saviors.

Old Rick would not have approved their actions.

Not arguing Rick and the group murdered those guys but...

1.) I don't think that truck was Negan's. Those guys didn't act like it was their's. I'm under the impression that whomever took Daryl's bike is not apart of the saviors.

2.) In the real world, first impression really does matter, especially when it comes to life or death situations. For the group, this renegade group are acting as Negan's representatives, especially considering the way they speak about Negan as if he is A okay with it. "All you stuff now belong's to Negan" as if Negan sends them out for this kind of work. I don't think it's too far of a stretch.

3.) They said that usually they take at least one person out to prove how serious they are. They were ready to off Abe and Sasha.

4.) It wasn't their's but it probably would be. Plus they became involved in the well-being of Hilltop the moment they realized they needed them for food. Involvement in the conflicts of allianced groups aren't odd.

5. A good point, but taking risks is dangerous in this world. They were going off of what they were given and what they knew, and what they believe was the likelihood of inevitable conflict. They were driven a bit by fear (well earned) and by hunger, and a history of dealing with the saviors already. It wasn't a "what is right, what is wrong?" situation. It was about likelihood and probabilities and making the best possible decision based on the information and experience they have. No one said it would be the perfect answer.

Old Rick wouldn't have agreed but he probably wouldn't have made it this far. I think the decision was logical even if not ideal.

 

[Funky Papa]

It's really stupid because it doesn't fit Abraham's character at ALL. Makes no sense he'd treat her like that.. not like they had a huge blow out fight or there was even an issue before his decision to tell her he didn't want her anymore. He could have gone about it.. basically any other way and it would have been a step up from what happened on screen.

It was incredibly atrocious writing for an otherwise excellent character. The Walking Dead just assumes that if there's conflict or drama, it's good enough to progress the plot, even if it might not make any sense.

I'm really sick of this lazy writing, honestly. They have absolutely no idea how to write relationships.

I took it as Abraham trying the old FUCK YOU AND YOUR BONE SPURS (not really, but I just want to get this done quickly even if it's also killing me) angle.

He probably feels like that was the best he could do not to drag the situation.

 

[Sendero]

There are nuances in the whole situation, and that's why we as spectators go along with their decision. All I'm saying is, that if you look at the cold hard facts without the meta information we have, they are no longer "good guys".


For example, what if the leader of the bikers was Negan's own Merle (crass person with very loose tongue)? They really have no way to know if he would actually kill them or was just messing with them.

The show goes the extra mile to paint the Saviors as terrible persons. But what if the guy with those Polaroid pictures was their own Carol (having those as reminders of what he has done, trying to be held accountable for his bad deeds)? Or, as someone suggested.. what if one of Glenn's victim was a pregnant woman, or a kid?

Then what?


From a narrative perspective, this is good, because whatever price they pay.. it will be basically their own fault.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Rick 100% made the right call to me. they already know the saviours are killing/thieving scumbags. Exhibit A is Daryl/Abe/Sasha's run in with them and also the hilltop debacle.

If they found the hilltop and found daryl/abe on the road, it's VERY reasonable to assume that they would inevitably discover Alexandria. And if they did, the same shit would happen only worse because Negan's crew would have the drop on them and could surprise attack at any moment.

I think they had justifiable reasons for wanting to pre-emptively strike and I really don't think anything other than getting up and leaving alexandria would even work.

The biker going alone may not have been enough evidence but considering everything the hilltop was going through including Negan beating a 16 year old kid to death and holding their entire colony ransome...that's all you need to know. Context is definitely key.

Nothing is black or white anymore.

 

[LycanXIII]

Just a reminder to everyone, we do have a Comic/TV Show Spoiler thread going on here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465057

 

[LostMyNarbles]

Abraham's reasoning for breaking up with Rosita was so dumb. That argument felt forced as hell. (Comic Spoilers)

Spoiler

I know he says exactly that in the comics, but I wish they wouldn't pull something directly from the comics like that if it doesn't sound practical.

 

[Amikami]

There are nuances in the whole situation, and that's why we as spectators go along with their decision. All I'm saying is, that if you look at the cold hard facts without the meta information we have, they are no longer "good guys".


For example, what if the leader of the bikers was Negan's own Merle (crass person with very loose tongue)? They really have no way to know if he would actually kill them or was just messing with them.

The show goes the extra mile to paint the Saviors as terrible persons. But what if the guy with those Polaroid pictures was their own Carol (having those as reminders of what he has done, trying to be held accountable for his bad deeds)? Or, as someone suggested.. what if one of Glenn's victim was a pregnant woman, or a kid?

Then what?


From a narrative perspective, this is good, because whatever price they pay.. it will be basically their own fault.

I don't disagree. I really don't. But I think that's just the way things are. There's been enough conflicts to show that Rick and his group aren't the "good" guys anymore. Rick told Deanna, that even he doesn't know how many he's killed but that he know's why he did it. Again and again, they have used people like Dell, Tyrese, Tara's discomfort (because she experienced the same with the governor, except the gov really had no reasons to attack) even Ron, to show that yeah, Rick and co. are cold blooded killers when they feel the ends justify the means. The group is always descending deeper and deeper down a hole they can't climb out of. Kinda think that has been an underlying point since season 2.

Plus it's kind of hard to paint the saviors as simply having a Merle and and a Carol. Negan, as a leader, ordains that his people bleed a crippled community to death, take people hostage, bash in the head of kids just cause, demands the head of it's leader, etc. If Rick wanted, they could have slaughtered all of Hilltop and had the food for themselves and taken over any crop growing they were doing, or simply stolen it. But they didn't. They are willing to work with people who don't threaten them, but will kill those whom do. They may have pretty little houses and running water but the world isn't civilized anymore. Don't think this show is very realistic, but I do find their rationalizing a realistic outcome of circumstances, their experiences, their losses.

Yeah, Rick or Glenn might have killed a kid or a pregnant woman, but what should he have done. Did a survey to see who was underage, who was pregnant. It was his kids, and Michonne, and it was Glenn's wife and unborn child, or it was Negan's people, whom have already tried to kill them and have ruthlessly bled the people whom are now somewhat alliances with them. In a more civilized world, they could try and save people, but the real world doesn't do that today tbh.

Even having said all that. I agree with you. They aren't "good". No one really is but then morality is relative of place and time. It's just them surviving and compared to others, they can be more reasonable by the means they use to get by. It's true there could be better ways to have handled Negan, but which way, who knows.

 

[Sendero]

Yeah. Just a couple of pages behind, I did mention that Rick made -more or less- the right call to go for the surprise attack. They had to do something, with the info they had at hand (they just not did it thoroughly).

But if I look at their train of thought more closely, can't help to notice they jumped too easily to certain conclusions, without ever doing more fact checking. Literally, all the info they have about Negan's atrocities, come from one source. The biker encounter have some caveats in itself, to be fully conclusive.


That's just nitpicking, because it really has been a great streak of chapters lately. And also, because I really don't like Gregory.

 

[Surfinn]

I took it as Abraham trying the old FUCK YOU AND YOUR BONE SPURS (not really, but I just want to get this done quickly even if it's also killing me) angle.

He probably feels like that was the best he could do not to drag the situation.

If that's the case, they sure didn't show it. He could have said "Rosita.. I'm sorry, and I feel like shit about it.. but there's another person in my life now. I never wanted to hurt you." or any variation of that. Instead, it was basically "hey, fuck off, have a nice day", for absolutely no reason. It was laughable.

This is the classic TWD formula of abrupt, fluid-free and logic-less dialogue between two people who are supposed to be emotionally connected.

If you can't write relationships, don't do it, I say.. or hire someone who can. Tara and Denise are in love now? Really? We've seen them together what.. like 3 or 4 times on screen with almost no significant dialogue?

It's just grinding.

 

[Amikami]

I don't think you're being nitpicky. I think you're just analyzing the characters and their actions for what they are and you aren't wrong. And yeah I wish the saviors had actually managed to kill Gregory myself.

 

[Nodnol]

Great episode. Overall, it's been a solid season.

For what it's worth, I thought Rick was thoroughly justified in his actions. It barely worth a morally justifification, because Hilltop has food, Alexandria doesn't. To earn the favour of the community with an excess of food, but no weapons, they need to hit back at the group that have A) held up Daryl et all, trivialized their potential murder in said encounter, B) have historically punishes Hilltop by murdering their inhabitants and C) continue to antagonize Hilltop.

It's made pretty obvious, through whispers and obvious encounters, that this Negan and his men are not very nice people. Can't wait to see how things unravel from here; I don't imagine Negan is too happy with recent events.

 

[Surfinn]

Great episode. Overall, it's been a solid season.

For what it's worth, I thought Rick was thoroughly justified in his actions. It barely worth a morally justifification, because Hilltop has food, Alexandria doesn't. To earn the favour of the community with an excess of food, but no weapons, they need to hit back at the group that have A) held up Daryl et all, trivialized their potential murder in said encounter, B) have historically punishes Hilltop by murdering their inhabitants and C) continue to antagonize Hilltop.

It's made pretty obvious, through whispers and obvious encounters, that this Negan and his men are not very nice people. Can't wait to see how things unravel from here; I don't imagine Negan is too happy with recent events.

I can understand the logic. It's just difficult to root for people who are murdering in cold blood, which we haven't seen before. I get it's all about the bigger picture but damn. Rough path to follow.

It's an interesting direction though.

 

[More_Badass]

I can understand the logic. It's just difficult to root for people who are murdering in cold blood, which we haven't seen before. I get it's all about the bigger picture but damn. Rough path to follow.

It's an interesting direction though.

An idealistic district attorney once said something about heroes and villains...

 

[hey_monkey]

I can't imagine Abe having a heart to heart about feelings. Is that what would really make y'all happy? It would be so out of character for him. He's terrible with people except for fighting and fucking.

 

[Surfinn]

I can't imagine Abe having a heart to heart about feelings. Is that what would really make y'all happy? It would be so out of character for him. He's terrible with people except for fighting and fucking.

It should have been awkward and potentially ineffective, but it shouldn't have been heartless.

That's out of character for him, definitely (especially considering there was never any hint on Rosita's part of any issues between them). He was with Rosita for a long time..

 

[poppabk]

If that's the case, they sure didn't show it. He could have said "Rosita.. I'm sorry, and I feel like shit about it.. but there's another person in my life now. I never wanted to hurt you." or any variation of that. Instead, it was basically "hey, fuck off, have a nice day", for absolutely no reason. It was laughable.

This is the classic TWD formula of abrupt, fluid-free and logic-less dialogue between two people who are supposed to be emotionally connected.

If you can't write relationships, don't do it, I say.. or hire someone who can. Tara and Denise are in love now? Really? We've seen them together what.. like 3 or 4 times on screen with almost no significant dialogue?

It's just grinding.

In a large ensemble cast, with all the action that is going on, they really don't have time to devote to fleshing out relationships. They time skipped Rick and Michonne getting together, and they are two central characters. Plus what you and I know about relationships probably doesn't apply to people who have had their wife and daughter raped and who then beat the people responsible so badly that the family fled from you only to be killed because you weren't there to protect them. It's pretty obvious that Abe is afraid to put himself in a place where he is responsible for a family and so Sasha is an escape.

 

[dustyherb]

I can't imagine Abe having a heart to heart about feelings. Is that what would really make y'all happy? It would be so out of character for him. He's terrible with people except for fighting and fucking.

Ya I actually thought how he broke up with Rosita was pretty accurate for his character. We have seen how he handles conflict with other people l mean he knocked Eugene out cold. And that was his best friend at the time. Like you said he's an awesome fighter but he obviously struggles when it's comes to settling down and figuring out how to live a sort of normal life.

 

[Surfinn]

In a large ensemble cast, with all the action that is going on, they really don't have time to devote to fleshing out relationships. They time skipped Rick and Michonne getting together, and they are two central characters. Plus what you and I know about relationships probably doesn't apply to people who have had their wife and daughter raped and who then beat the people responsible so badly that the family fled from you only to be killed because you weren't there to protect them. It's pretty obvious that Abe is afraid to put himself in a place where he is responsible for a family and so Sasha is an escape.

They have all the time in the world to flesh out friendships and relationships.

That's the entire point of the show; it's a character based drama with zombies used as a plot device. Literally all that happens now (in between action set pieces) is characters standing around and talking in the woods/around Alexandria. Which is absolutely fine, and in fact encouraged, as long as the writing is solid and the characters are interesting and thoughtfully developed and EACH SCENE feels like it serves a purpose. The problem, though, is that's not the case. The vast majority of the dialogue now consists of clunky writing and recycled themes about morals which have been driven into the ground and back up and contribute almost nothing in regard to character development or plot progression. So much time is wasted.

It's interesting because my GF and I have been watching Breaking Bad and new TWD episodes as they release. The shows are similar in that they're character driven dramas, but I'm surprised to see how blatantly awful the writing has been in TWD in comparison to something of high quality. In BB, you don't feel like relationships are thrown together or fabricated out of thin air. You don't feel like the time spent on screen with various characters (INCLUDING side and relatively insignificant ones) is wasted. You don't feel like entire scenes are pointless or recycled.

Each interaction and conversation is meaningful and engaging.

I haven't felt that way about TWD in a long, long time.

 

[Super Nothing]

Ya I actually thought how he broke up with Rosita was pretty accurate for his character. We have seen how he handles conflict with other people l mean he knocked Eugene out cold. And that was his best friend at the time. Like you said he's an awesome fighter but he obviously struggles when it's comes to settling down and figuring out how to live a sort of normal life.

Eugene deserved to get knocked out. He lied to everyone and gave them false hope that he could fix everything when he really just had a feeling that Washington would be a safer place. That lie had given Abraham purpose, but then he found out that he was really just the body guard for some dip shit who couldn't protect himself and added no actual value to the group. Abraham became a leader of a group with a purpose only to have that stripped away. People died under his command trying to get Eugene to Washington. I was surprised that the others in the group jumped to defend Eugene when he finally confessed.

 

[Rekki-Maru]

I don't read the comics but it is getting ridiculously obvious now who's going die this season. I'll be very disappointed if I guess correctly.

There's fans who buy the action figures that don't know. It feels like a troll, there's signs everywhere and some foreshadowing..but the tv show is like a remix. If I was running the show i wouldn't make it exactly like the comics either. It has to appeal to all the fans if they want to maintain the ratings, throwing curves is the key.

 

[border]

It's interesting because my GF and I have been watching Breaking Bad and new TWD episodes as they release. The shows are similar in that they're character driven dramas, but I'm surprised to see how blatantly awful the writing has been in TWD in comparison to something of high quality. In BB, you don't feel like relationships are thrown together or fabricated out of thin air. You don't feel like the time spent on screen with various characters (INCLUDING side and relatively insignificant ones) is wasted. You don't feel like entire scenes are pointless or recycled.

The show kind of thrives of surprises. Surprise deaths, surprise hookups, shocking revelations and events. They could have telegraphed the Rick/Michonne and Carol hookups for weeks but the people watching are not wanting or expecting a slow buildup followed by catharsis.....they want many things to seem like they are out of thin air, actually.

The tension and the sense that anything could happen is part of what makes the show enthralling. The infiltration of Negan's compound this week could not be a better example. You rarely went into an episode of Breaking Bad thinking that a central character might not be alive by the end of it. Doesn't mean that Walking Dead is better, but simply playing to a different set of desires and expectation. There still a ton of room for improvement, obviously.

 

[Surfinn]

Ya I actually thought how he broke up with Rosita was pretty accurate for his character. We have seen how he handles conflict with other people l mean he knocked Eugene out cold. And that was his best friend at the time. Like you said he's an awesome fighter but he obviously struggles when it's comes to settling down and figuring out how to live a sort of normal life.

Who wouldn't have done that though (or at least been that upset with him)? Apples and oranges, considering what Eugene did. There was no justification for Abraham being so cold with Rostia, even if he doesn't handle his feelings well. It felt awkward and out of place, as if he were trying to get back at her or punish her in some way for something she'd said or done. Another fumbling conversation.

The show kind of thrives of surprises. Surprise deaths, surprise hookups, shocking revelations and events. They could have telegraphed the Rick/Michonne and Carol hookups for weeks but the people watching are not wanting or expecting a slow buildup followed by catharsis.....they want many things to seem like they are out of thin air, actually.

The tension and the sense that anything could happen is part of what makes the show enthralling. The infiltration of Negan's compound this week could not be a better example. You rarely went into an episode of Breaking Bad thinking that a central character might not be alive by the end of it. Doesn't mean that Walking Dead is better, but simply playing to a different set of desires and expectation. There still a ton of room for improvement, obviously.

But TWD (and comic) were built upon the foundation of NOT having cheap thrills and surprises. It's shallow entertainment, and I can understand that people want that since a lot of people don't expect too much out of their entertainment, but it's a huge step backward.

TWD deserves much better. Writing has taken a backseat to impulsive desire.

 

[Amikami]

Eh. I still think Michonne and Rick's relationship was pretty well telegraphed.

 

[Surfinn]

Eh. I still think Michonne and Rick's relationship was pretty well telegraphed.

TOO telegraphed (in one episode worth of time). Let's timeskip so we can show Rick and Michonne awkwardly playing house instead of writing a natural progression for their romantic connection. Because, who cares how we get there, right? That's what fans want. :/

And now you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would even know they're now in a relationship having not seen the timeskip episode. Fan service at its finest.

I'm just sticking around to see Negan, at this point. Could be the turning point we need.

 

[Enco]

Lol fuck the saviors.

They had pictures of dead bodies on the wall. They almost killed Abe and co. They were are all douchebags.

Killing them in their sleep was plenty good.

Really dark episode though.

 

[Surfinn]

Lol fuck the saviors.

They had pictures of dead bodies on the wall. They almost killed Abe and co. They were are all douchebags.

Killing them in their sleep was plenty good.

Really dark episode though.

Yeah, there's a lot to justify taking them out. The sleep murder was a bit much for me, but I guess there's no way around it.

 

[Amikami]

TOO telegraphed (in one episode worth of time). Let's timeskip so we can show Rick and Michonne awkwardly playing house instead of writing a natural progression for their romantic connection. Because, who cares how we get there, right? That's what fans want. :/

And now you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would even know they're now in a relationship having not seen the timeskip episode. Fan service at its finest.

I'm just sticking around to see Negan, at this point. Could be the turning point we need.

Nope. I mean before then. It's one extreme or the other. Either people say it was sudden or people say it was about time because it was so obvious. Its all about perspective I guess. I'm not even that big of a shipper and I thought they would get together since season 4. *shrug*

 

[Surfinn]

Nope. I mean before then. It's one extreme or the other. Either people say it was sudden or people say it was about time because it was so obvious. Its all about perspective I guess. I'm not even that big of a shipper and I thought they would get together since season 4. *shrug*

It's that it's only obvious if you want it badly enough (your mind makes it so). Every single indication that's came before had them pegged as good friends who had grown closer, mainly due to her and Carl becoming so close through paralleled losses.

There's just no evidence at all before the timeskip episode (unless someone can provide this for me, as I've yet to see it).

Logically, there's just no argument. And it's not about two extremes when the other option is to slowly and thoughtfully build their relationship over time (what's extreme about that?). The use of a time jump as legitimate progression is flat out poor writing, no matter how it's sliced.

But I can agree to disagree with you here.

 

[TouchMyBox]

Lol fuck the saviors.

They had pictures of dead bodies on the wall. They almost killed Abe and co. They were are all douchebags.

Killing them in their sleep was plenty good.

Really dark episode though.

Those were COMIC BOOK TALK

Spoiler

just

Spoiler

Lucille's

Spoiler

party

pics

Spoiler

though.

 

[kubus]

spoilers

how hard is it to mark your spoilers?!

Smh

Edit: I don't know if you're trying to be funny now by putting every word in separate spoiler tags now or genuinely trying to fix your spoiler tags so I'll just leave this here:

Also, friendly advice: people who are not labeling their spoilered text as [COMIC SPOILERS] in some form or another will be getting the stick.

I don't like to be harsh and that's a relatively minor infraction considering that the text is already spoiler tagged, but there's no way to know if said text is tagged for any other reasons (such as preview talk), which may lead to people getting spoilered.

Looking back, last week's episode had a lot of people breaking the rules described at the OP and we can't have that. This may be one of GAF's most unruly threads regarding spoilers, right along GoT's OT, which calls for harsher moderation.

Please, I don't like this any more than you do.

 

[timetokill]

Not really, they had a fully qualified doc there before the current doc, he'd have just requested that the scouts get what he needed.

Ultrasound is useful for far more than measuring the size of an unborn baby.

I know, I've had one done on myself, and I'm a guy. I still think it's weird that they have one, but whatever, it's not a huge deal.

 

[Deleted member 325805]

I really could watch this show all day, and I did when I first started watching it. One episode a week just isn't enough!

 

[8BitsAtATime]

Lol fuck the saviors.

They had pictures of dead bodies on the wall. They almost killed Abe and co. They were are all douchebags.

Killing them in their sleep was plenty good.

Really dark episode though.

Rick's group deserves what's going to happen to them. It's scummy to kill someone in their sleep.

 

[Escape Goat]

Rick's group deserves what's going to happen to them. It's scummy to kill someone in their sleep.

Tell that to armies all through history. Attacking at dawn isnt something Rick thought up.

 

[Amikami]

It's that it's only obvious if you want it badly enough (your mind makes it so). Every single indication that's came before had them pegged as good friends who had grown closer, mainly due to her and Carl becoming so close through paralleled losses.

There's just no evidence at all before the timeskip episode (unless someone can provide this for me, as I've yet to see it).

Logically, there's just no argument. And it's not about two extremes when the other option is to slowly and thoughtfully build their relationship over time (what's extreme about that?). The use of a time jump as legitimate progression is flat out poor writing, no matter how it's sliced.

But I can agree to disagree with you here.

I guess we have to disagree then, which is great and fine. I think we've had this discussion before. I really didn't care that much. I'm not that much of a shipper. You mentioned bias before and also mentioned you weren't a fan of the pairing which is fine. It might be possible however that if you weren't a fan of the pairing, then you might have missed signs or be biased against them isn't it?. But yeah, we just have different ideas about it. It's literally not that serious to me though. Not trying to be aggressive or anything about a tv romance.

 

[Surfinn]

I guess we have to disagree then, which is great and fine. I think we've had this discussion before. I really didn't care that much. I'm not that much of a shipper. You mentioned bias before and also mentioned you weren't a fan of the pairing which is fine. It might be possible however that if you weren't a fan of the pairing, then you might have missed signs or be biased against them isn't it?. But yeah, we just have different ideas about it. It's literally not that serious to me though. Not trying to be aggressive or anything about a tv romance.

Oops I didn't realize you were the same person I had this conversation with last time.

Now, I'm not saying I didn't miss any signs. I've been asking people though to list the signs that have come before the timeskip and no one could really provide anything. I'd love to see the evidence if it exists and am open to changing my interpretation. I don't honestly feel like I had a bias to begin with though, since I wasn't expecting anything one way or another.. which led to the jarring feeling I experienced when it was thrown into the show seemingly out of nowhere.

Sorry if I sounded rude or aggressive.

 

[8BitsAtATime]

Tell that to armies all through history. Attacking at dawn isnt something Rick thought up.

Its still scummy. Heath and Glenn were disgusted by what they did. Negan's group has every right to retaliate

That one dude even said Rick as was worse than the Saviors.

 

[MK_768]

Tell that to armies all through history. Attacking at dawn isnt something Rick thought up.

Yup cause in a world where you have to survive you should totally make sure your enemy is wide awake when you are gonna attack. Just so it's socially acceptable lol.

A lot of the people who hate the whole murder in sleep are literally thinking in our reality. The show has it's own reality. Doesn't matter how you kill your enemy, you have to survive. That's the mindset.

Sure it's heinous but the Walking Dead world ain't unicorns and rainbows lol.

Regardless, even Rick seemed to be mildly affected by the sleep kill. He kinda had one of those conflicted looks on his face when he killed someone in their sleep. Clearly not like Glenn but still, even he seemed bothered.

 

[JuanLatino]

Its still scummy. Heath and Glenn were disgusted by what they did. Negan's group has every right to retaliate

That one dude even said Rick as was worse than the Saviors.

that one dude doesn't know (comic spoilers)

Spoiler

negan and lucille

 

[Surfinn]

Yup cause in a world where you have to survive you should totally make sure your enemy is wide awake when you are gonna attack. Just so it's socially acceptable lol.

A lot of the people who hate the whole murder in sleep are literally thinking in our reality. The show has it's own reality. Doesn't matter how you kill your enemy, you have to survive. That's the mindset.

Sure it's heinous but the Walking Dead world ain't unicorns and rainbows lol.

Regardless, even Rick seemed to be mildly affected by the sleep kill. He kinda had one of those conflicted looks on his face when he killed someone in their sleep. Clearly not like Glenn but still, even he seemed bothered.

This has been the most thought provoking decision we've seen in the show in some time. Love the setup. Now THIS I could somewhat see Morgan's perspective in a legitimate light, in terms of a moral dilemma. Too bad they've already fucked his character up, lol.

Ultimately I think Rick made the right call.

 

[8BitsAtATime]

that one dude doesn't know (comic spoilers)

Spoiler

negan and lucille

I'm pretty sure he was there when Negan told the 3 from Hilltop to kill Gregory

 

[MK_768]

This has been the most thought provoking decision we've seen in the show in some time. Love the setup. Now THIS I could somewhat see Morgan's perspective in a legitimate light, in terms of a moral dilemma. Too bad they've already fucked his character up, lol.

Ultimately I think Rick made the right call.

So do I. One could make the argument that the Saviors struck first. Regardless, Rick did what was necessary.

 

[Amikami]

Oops I didn't realize you were the same person I had this conversation with last time.

Now, I'm not saying I didn't miss any signs. I've been asking people though to list the signs that have come before the timeskip and no one could really provide anything. I'd love to see the evidence if it exists and am open to changing my interpretation. I don't honestly feel like I had a bias to begin with though, since I wasn't expecting anything one way or another.. which led to the jarring feeling I experienced when it was thrown into the show seemingly out of nowhere.

Sorry if I sounded rude or aggressive.

No worries. You didn't sound rude at all. I was more worried that I came off sounding aggressive or something as I didn't realize you were the same person either. You good.

 

[En-ou]

i'm on the bandwagon that it was a shitty direction to take: protags killing supposedly bad guys in their sleep based on hearsay. i'm actually going to feel good about what's coming to rick's group and will be rooting for negan. I hope they blow michonne's head off in in front of dickwad rick.

 

[hey_monkey]

It should have been awkward and potentially ineffective, but it shouldn't have been heartless.

That's out of character for him, definitely (especially considering there was never any hint on Rosita's part of any issues between them). He was with Rosita for a long time..

I just see it as Abe having decided, feeling certain, and looking at it like ripping a band-aid off. Yeah, it's shitty, but it's just how things are, and dragging it out doesn't help, so just telling her plain: she's not the last woman in the world maybe feels efficient. He doesn't know how to talk to her, so he didn't. He was gonna just leave and she tried to make him talk and he was all "fuck this, nope."

Ya I actually thought how he broke up with Rosita was pretty accurate for his character. We have seen how he handles conflict with other people l mean he knocked Eugene out cold. And that was his best friend at the time. Like you said he's an awesome fighter but he obviously struggles when it's comes to settling down and figuring out how to live a sort of normal life.

Yep. And I mean, everyone was mad at Eugene, and rightly so, but Abe was, again, just full of "fuck this, can't deal, action time."

 

[Amikami]

Lol. Some people really did take last episode hard.

 

[ZangBa]

i'm on the bandwagon that it was a shitty direction to take: protags killing supposedly bad guys in their sleep based on hearsay. i'm actually going to feel good about what's coming to rick's group and will be rooting for negan. I hope they blow michonne's head off in in front of dickwad rick.

I almost felt bad until I saw all the pictures on the wall. They got what was coming.

 

[SamuraiX-]

Won't somebody please think of Negan and his good samaritan band of Saviors? They're just misunderstood. They deserved better.

 

[poppabk]

They have all the time in the world to flesh out friendships and relationships.

That's the entire point of the show; it's a character based drama with zombies used as a plot device. Literally all that happens now (in between action set pieces) is characters standing around and talking in the woods/around Alexandria. Which is absolutely fine, and in fact encouraged, as long as the writing is solid and the characters are interesting and thoughtfully developed and EACH SCENE feels like it serves a purpose. The problem, though, is that's not the case. The vast majority of the dialogue now consists of clunky writing and recycled themes about morals which have been driven into the ground and back up and contribute almost nothing in regard to character development or plot progression. So much time is wasted.

It's interesting because my GF and I have been watching Breaking Bad and new TWD episodes as they release. The shows are similar in that they're character driven dramas, but I'm surprised to see how blatantly awful the writing has been in TWD in comparison to something of high quality. In BB, you don't feel like relationships are thrown together or fabricated out of thin air. You don't feel like the time spent on screen with various characters (INCLUDING side and relatively insignificant ones) is wasted. You don't feel like entire scenes are pointless or recycled.

Each interaction and conversation is meaningful and engaging.

I haven't felt that way about TWD in a long, long time.

Breaking Bad was focused around Jessie and Walter. Pretty much anything that happened was in relation to them, and they had a defined trajectory. There weren't sub-plots with Saul going out on dates, Saul effectively ceased to exist pretty much when Walt or Jessie weren't around. Same with Mike barring a motivation scene or two with his family.
Walking Dead is an ensemble cast - sure Rick may be the center - but there have been entire sections of the show where Rick isn't interacting with large segments of the main cast. If you really think that they had time to deal in depth with Rick and Jessie, Rick and Michonne, Carl and Enid, Abe and Sasha and Rosita, Carol and Tobin?, Tara and Denise, Aaron and Eric while also giving screen time to all the other cast, without it bogging down then I think you may be expecting too much. Sometimes you suddenly realize that one of the main cast hasn't really done anything for a couple of episodes. If they didn't show Rosita ever again in the show - I doubt it would barely register to me until much later, because there are already too many characters to keep track of.

 

[hey_monkey]

I think the main reasons they don't spend much time fleshing out relationships and character in this show (but instead operating with sometimes heavy handed symbolism or broad strokes) are:

a) it's only a focus in that the survival of humanity is important (beyond just survival of humans), so it's still somewhat secondary,
b) they aren't as good at it as many writers of more nuanced shows, but maybe that's because
c) every time they try to spend some time building relationships and character, people start throwing monstrous fits about filler and yelling about bringing back the zombies/fighting/action/tension