It feels like there is an episode missing between this one and the one before. Just episodes ago Carol was ready to kill the captured Wolf in Alexandria, even though he was subdued and tied up. Nothing notable had happened to her between that moment and this episode for her to suddenly enter soul-searching mode. And now we're supposed to believe her that she wanted to avoid killing her captors, who openly threatened to kill them several times during the episode? It doesn't make sense to me.
They did settle down in peace in Alexandria for a two-month stretch (the first time Carol has done that since between Seasons 3 & 4 in the prison). She shacked up with Tobin. She had to deal with the consequences of filling Sam's head full of nonsense that led to him getting his family killed and Carl shot. I'd say quite a bit of notable development took place.
Carol started "to live" again for the first time in a LONG time. She wasn't simply trying to survive. This allowed her to reflect and come to terms with where she was then versus where she started out back in Atlanta before she lost Sophia and before she killed 18 people.
That said, it may have been more believable had the mid-season break happened after Episode 9 when that two-month break took place and not beforehand... but that fault lies on AMC.
Gee I wonder if we'll ever see Carol talk this shit through at some point in order to make sense of it. If only we had more episodes to see that happen.
Underrated sad scene was when Carol was watching Maggie beat in that womans skull. Sad because you can tell Carol wanted something better for Maggie. Carol is someone that has kind of written off the rest of her life. Lost her daughter and has become a killer but in her eyes someone like Maggie still has a chance to be normal. She even says as much when she says you're supposed to be someone else .
That's what separates ricks group from every other group on the show. Groups like the governors, or the claimers, or the wolves, and even the saviours all seem like they're together out of necessity to survive. Their relationships are mostly working relationships. Sometimes we get the impression that they care for one another but it's pretty rare. Some could argue that it's because we don't spend a lot of time with them but I don't think that's true. Even when we do see the way they interact it all seems very businessy and orderly.
Rick's group is a very large one yet they all care very deeply for one another.
I believe in episode 1 she finished off the body of her husband by brutally bashing his brains repeatedly. That was a huge turning point for her character.
Some of us are fine with the bold happening, and welcome it even, but you can't just have it happen out of nowhere.
It feels like there is an episode missing between this one and the one before. Just episodes ago Carol was ready to kill the captured Wolf in Alexandria, even though he was subdued and tied up. Nothing notable had happened to her between that moment and this episode for her to suddenly enter soul-searching mode. And now we're supposed to believe her that she wanted to avoid killing her captors, who openly threatened to kill them several times during the episode? It doesn't make sense to me.
She didn't? It was only that one woman, and because of how similar they were, that it clearly affected her in terms of seeing what she could become. She killed the rest of their captors without hesitation
She didn't? It was only that one woman, and because of how similar they were, that it clearly affected her in terms of seeing what she could become. She killed the rest of their captors without hesitation
Edit: well she did want to go, but when that plan changed, she did what she had to do, even if she didn't like it
Still makes absolutely no sense she'd allow herself to be killed or fail to protect Maggie. None. She's shot someone in the leg before, though it was for a different reason (to get information). Could have done a number of things without killing her.
That scene in particular was bad though because Carol's character development took a backseat to another cheap thrill (oh, she almost got her!). It's this kind of writing I have a huge problem with. It's ruining the show.
Carol started "to live" again for the first time in a LONG time. She wasn't simply trying to survive. This allowed her to reflect and come to terms with where she was then versus where she started out back in Atlanta before she lost Sophia and before she killed 18 people.
That said, it may have been more believable had the mid-season break happened after Episode 9 when that two-month break took place and not beforehand... but that fault lies on AMC.
She didn't? It was only that one woman, and because of how similar they were, that it clearly affected her in terms of seeing what she could become. She killed the rest of their captors without hesitation
Edit: well she did want to go, but when that plan changed, she did what she had to do, even if she didn't like it
Her obvious remorse at the end of the episode tells me she really did feel bad about all her kills that just happened, as if she had really preferred to avoid having to do them. But it's open to interpretation, of course.
Notice her body language when she watches those men burn alive in the kill floor. She doesn't feel good about it, at all, even if she knew it had to be done. It wasn't just the red haired lady she wanted to avoid killing.
She didn't? It was only that one woman, and because of how similar they were, that it clearly affected her in terms of seeing what she could become. She killed the rest of their captors without hesitation
Edit: well she did want to go, but when that plan changed, she did what she had to do, even if she didn't like it
I don't think Carol wants to be like Morgan, but I don't think she wants to be who she was before either. That's the conflict. Although, she will protect the core group without hesitation. Her morals will always take a back seat to that.
It was the moment when he was drenched in blood in the Hilltop that did it for me. I can understand defending himself and doing what he needed to but the man straight up doesn't seem to care about killing people.
That (as in that kind of person, not the action) would legitimately scare the crap out of me in real life.
I'm pretty sure that is exactly the way it happened in the comics though. Like literally panel for panel, Rick standing up with blood dripping off his jaw, turning and saying, "What?"
So they were just sticking to the source material there. Take from that what you will.
However, you say that it would scare the crap out of you in real life, but don't forget that you never lived in an apocalypse in real life. None of us have. If you did, and you adapted to become a sustainable yet pragmatic survivor, you would not be the same person I am typing this to. Just like Rick is a completely different person psychologically in this apocalypse.
I feel the villains are the ones who view life as not being precious which is why they find it to be so cheap, and as a result find it easy to brutalise others. The heroes of the story being so indifferent to killing any human could (IMHO) lead to some dark places.
Well precious is a pretty and light hearted word. Rick saw Jesus and didn't think to kill him immediately, he wanted to give him a chance and it turns out he did the right thing.
Morgan is partially right. Just like Rick is partially right. There is a middle ground to be found and that's something that every one of our characters is struggling to find. Some people can be saved, others can't. And sometimes your going to have to kill, it's as simple as that. The hard part is deciding who is savable in this kind of world. Even the head wolf dude had a moment of good and saved Denise.
Na bro, I can't say I agree with you. Morgan's "precious" ideology came taught from a man who was a psychologist pre-apocalypse, who read a book, written in a pre-apocalypse.
Unless you meet someone like Jesus (no pun intended) in which the circumstances prove that this person deserves to live, in their world, you cannot take chances.
To bring up an old example, Morgan allowed the wolves to escape because of this "precious" ideology, and because of that, Rick was almost killed.
To respond to your example, yes, for a singular moment the alpha wolf had a change of heart, but does that take away all the heinous shit he did in the past? If it were not an apocalypse, this person would be in a jail cell, or an insane asylum, or hell some people might've even wanted to give him the death sentence.
Break her? We need a character who directly contrasts Morgan, and it's Carol. We don't need another ruthless killer turned good, we've already been there with Morgan; it's redundant. Carol has spent six seasons defining who she is, and in like 3 episodes, she's suddenly a weak, scared little person afraid of her own shadow, as Meryl brilliantly phrased it?
It's a huge step back and an awful mistake after pretty much everyone hated who Morgan had become. Let's not do it to Carol too. Show that she's a human (as they had been, before this episode), but don't essentially retcon all of the progression she's made as a veteran survivor.
She just shouldn't be making these mistakes, flat out.
Carol, left to her own devices, is as we saw her last episode where shes baking cookies and being a mom. When Carol isnt fighting to survive shes domestic. She is thoughtful, nurturing and compassionate. Carol regained her humanity but the part of her that is the fighter is always there. Remember the scene where shes out collecting walnuts? Shes at peace and then she hears the zombie and she kills it, spraying blood all over her nice white blouse. And shes kind of shaken from her daydream bringing these personas into contrast.
Na bro, I can't say I agree with you. Morgan's "precious" ideology came taught from a man who was a psychologist pre-apocalypse, who read a book, written in a pre-apocalypse.
Unless you meet someone like Jesus (no pun intended) in which the circumstances prove that this person deserves to live, in their world, you cannot take chances.
To bring up an old example, Morgan allowed the wolves to escape because of this "precious" ideology, and because of that, Rick was almost killed.
To respond to your example, yes, for a singular moment the alpha wolf had a change of heart, but does that take away all the heinous shit he did in the past? If it were not an apocalypse, this person would be in a jail cell, or an insane asylum, or hell some people might've even wanted to give him the death sentence.
Okay I get that Morgan's ALL life is precious is a little extreme and I definitely don't agree with it either. Mostly because your right there are going to be people who can't be saved and deserve to die. But you also have to realize that these people have started to build a community. And now they have found another community and Jesus even said something about other settlements as well I believe. You need to start thinking long term which means you need more people to expand and build.
Now your right that moment of goodwill doesn't excuse everything he has done but who's to say if they didn't get more time with him he couldn't change? If Morgan was able to actually hold him in a cell like Eastman did over a long period of time it could have had an effect. People are a valuable resource when you need to rebuild a new world.
My point was just that Morgan does have it partially correct that people can be saved was all. He was just as crazy as that wolf killing anyone he came across. He knows it's possible to come back.
Break her? We need a character who directly contrasts Morgan, and it's Carol. We don't need another ruthless killer turned good, we've already been there with Morgan; it's redundant. Carol has spent six seasons defining who she is, and in like 3 episodes, she's suddenly a weak, scared little person afraid of her own shadow, as Meryl brilliantly phrased it?
It's a huge step back and an awful mistake after pretty much everyone hated who Morgan had become. Let's not do it to Carol too. Show that she's a human (as they had been, before this episode), but that she's not going to essentially retcon all of the progression she's made as a veteran survivor.
I think you're disingenuously exaggerating how far Carol has "fallen" based off this episode. She still killed what, eight people? Also Rick and Morgan represent the extremes in the group with everyone else falliig various places in between.
Okay I get that Morgan's ALL life is precious is a little extreme and I definitely don't agree with it either. Mostly because your right there are going to be people who can't be saved and deserve to die. But you also have to realize that these people have started to build a community. And now they have found another community and Jesus even said something about other settlements as well I believe. You need to start thinking long term which means you need more people to expand and build.
Now your right that moment of goodwill doesn't excuse everything he has done but who's to say if they didn't get more time with him he couldn't change? If Morgan was able to actually hold him in a cell like Eastman did over a long period of time it could have had an effect. People are a valuable resource when you need to rebuild a new world.
My point was just that Morgan does have it partially correct that people can be saved was all. He was just as crazy as that wolf killing anyone he came across. He knows it's possible to come back.
It would have made more sense (as a character) for him to have applied this philosophy to people who weren't trying to murder and behead everyone living at Alexandria for no reason other than being nuts. It was the silliest thing I've ever seen in the show when he was trying to beat everyone with a stick while Carol was out actually defending the place they'd worked so hard to not only secure but establish.
I think you're disingenuously exaggerating how far Carol has "fallen" based off this episode. She still killed what, eight people? Also Rick and Morgan represent the extremes in the group with everyone else falliig various places in between.
She did, but she also put her life and Maggie's into the hands of a complete stranger. That's completely out of character for her. That's what I have a problem with.
Okay I get that Morgan's ALL life is precious is a little extreme and I definitely don't agree with it either. Mostly because your right there are going to be people who can't be saved and deserve to die. But you also have to realize that these people have started to build a community. And now they have found another community and Jesus even said something about other settlements as well I believe. You need to start thinking long term which means you need more people to expand and build.
Now your right that moment of goodwill doesn't excuse everything he has done but who's to say if they didn't get more time with him he couldn't change? If Morgan was able to actually hold him in a cell like Eastman did over a long period of time it could have had an effect. People are a valuable resource when you need to rebuild a new world.
My point was just that Morgan does have it partially correct that people can be saved was all. He was just as crazy as that wolf killing anyone he came across. He knows it's possible to come back.
Alright yeah, I guess I can agree with you here however to respond to the bold: after Morgan got done telling his story to the alpha wolf and he and Carol began fighting in front of him, he incapacitated Morgan, the guy who was trying to fight for him, and then left with a hostage. Maybe he could have changed, but would it be worth the risk of the good survivors in the community? (if alexandria wasn't zombie-infested at the time, that is I guess the catalyst in the situation)
Break her? We need a character who directly contrasts Morgan, and it's Carol. We don't need another ruthless killer turned good, we've already been there with Morgan; it's redundant. Carol has spent six seasons defining who she is, and in like 3 episodes, she's suddenly a weak, scared little person afraid of her own shadow, as Meryl brilliantly phrased it?
It's a huge step back and an awful mistake after pretty much everyone hated who Morgan had become. Let's not do it to Carol too. Show that she's a human (as they had been, before this episode), but don't essentially retcon all of the progression she's made as a veteran survivor.
She just shouldn't be making these mistakes, flat out.
Alright yeah, I guess I can agree with you here however to respond to the bold: after Morgan got done telling his story to the alpha wolf and he and Carol began fighting in front of him, he incapacitated Morgan, the guy who was trying to fight for him, and then left with a hostage. Maybe he could have changed, but would it be worth the risk of the good survivors in the community? (if alexandria wasn't zombie-infested at the time, that is I guess the catalyst in the situation)
Break her? We need a character who directly contrasts Morgan, and it's Carol. We don't need another ruthless killer turned good, we've already been there with Morgan; it's redundant. Carol has spent six seasons defining who she is, and in like 3 episodes, she's suddenly a weak, scared little person afraid of her own shadow, as Meryl brilliantly phrased it?
It's a huge step back and an awful mistake after pretty much everyone hated who Morgan had become. Let's not do it to Carol too. Show that she's a human (as they had been, before this episode), but don't essentially retcon all of the progression she's made as a veteran survivor.
She just shouldn't be making these mistakes, flat out.
not really. he took denise hostage and wanted to escape. the only hint of his changing was him turning around when a zombie grabbed denise but it wasn't clarified whether he turned around because he saw someone who needed help or because he knew he needed her. and we'll never know because now he's fucking dead.
Alright yeah, I guess I can agree with you here however to respond to the bold: after Morgan got done telling his story to the alpha wolf and he and Carol began fighting in front of him, he incapacitated Morgan, the guy who was trying to fight for him, and then left with a hostage. Maybe he could have changed, but would it be worth the risk of the good survivors in the community? (if alexandria wasn't zombie-infested at the time, that is I guess the catalyst in the situation)
Ya the wolf didn't really seem to give a crap about Morgan it was more Denise that got through to him. And I think it could be worth the risk if they had a proper place to hold the Wolf but they didn't and that's why everything went to shit. Hell even Jesus escaped the same exact place after Rick and Daryl put him in there.
We dont know how many people Negan has. But there were like 5 or 6 that went in. They were going to meet up with the 5 that were already in the slaughterhouse. Ricks group didnt know where they were yet anyways.
Ya the wolf didn't really seem to give a crap about Morgan it was more Denise that got through to him. And I think it could be worth the risk if they had a proper place to hold the Wolf but they didn't and that's why everything went to shit. Hell even Jesus escaped the same exact place after Rick and Daryl put him in there.
you know since we're on the topic of sparing villains and giving them character development...I just wanna say I really wish they kept Gareth alive, even though he fucking ate people. There was that (false) advertisement of him sorta working with the group anyway, and he's also just, so...handsome.
here's to hoping sony looks to him as a candidate for playing nathan drake though
I was surprised that the woman interrogating Maggie didn't end up going with Rick's group. She seemed more reasonable, and more compassionate. But Maggie didn't care about that compassion and just wanted her dead.
I don't know that Carol's breakdown was 'too abrupt'; she's been pushing down her emotions for a long time. But it certainly wasn't written well. Maggie and the audience were both perplexed at her behavior because there was no space or emotional context for that moment to develop. It just seemed like she was faking it. I'm not sure if there was enough material to fill two episodes, but it feels like Carol's breakdown deserved that.
Ya no worries I knew you weren't. I think the main reason Rick didn't want to give the saviors a chance is because everything added up to them not being people who would negotiate. They wanted to kill Sasha or Abe right off the bat and they are forcing hilltop to obey with volience. If your Rick and the group your obviously thinking these saviors are no different then all these other terrible groups we've run into.
Sure, but you could say the same thing about the Governor at the prison. Rick had invaded his town and destroyed his kingdom. The Governor had no reason to trust Rick and certainly no reason to leave his group alive, but he still offered Rick a peaceful way out instead of slaughtering his group. And Rick offered to live side by side with the Governor's group; can you imagine current Rick doing that? No, Rick has descended not into the psychosis of the Governor, but to his brutalism that allows almost no room for peace. The Governor transformed after he snapped the first time, and after meeting the woman & daughter he felt like he could maybe "come back". He was trying to walk a more peaceful path (as much as his psychosis could allow), a path that I don't think Rick accepts anymore.
Did you not see her when she was captured? Scared and crying? And no, it wasn't an act, the way it was directed, as she acts exactly the same once she's escaped with Maggie. Tired of shit being explained away on talking dead and via interviews since it's unclear in the show itself. Same thing happened with the time skip actual time (2 months instead of 2 weeks as stated in the show itself). Bad writing.
And it always comes back to "but we don't see it happen due to the time skip". Sane Same thing happened with Rick and Michonne (playing house after time skip).
Hell, why don't we skip ahead a year? That way we can explain that Rick has had a change of heart and he's deeply sorry about killing the saviors. That way we don't have to write in the development.
Did you not see her when she was captured? Scared and crying? And no, it wasn't an act, the way it was directed, as she acts exactly the same once she's escaped with Maggie. Tired of shit being explained away on talking dead and via interviews since it's unclear in the show itself. Same thing happened with the time skip actual time (2 months instead of 2 weeks as stated in the show itself). Bad writing.
The scared and crying hysterically part was clearly an act to let her keep the rosary beads without them being suspicious. As we saw, the second she was alone, she used it to keep the tape and escape
you know since we're on the topic of sparing villains and giving them character development...I just wanna say I really wish they kept Gareth alive, even though he fucking ate people. There was that (false) advertisement of him sorta working with the group anyway, and he's also just, so...handsome.
here's to hoping sony looks to him as a candidate for playing nathan drake though
Did you not see her when she was captured? Scared and crying? And no, it wasn't an act, the way it was directed, as she acts exactly the same once she's escaped with Maggie. Tired of shit being explained away on talking dead and via interviews since it's unclear in the show itself. Same thing happened with the time skip actual time (2 months instead of 2 weeks as stated in the show itself). Bad writing.
And it always comes back to "but we don't see it happen due to the time skip". Sane Same thing happened with Rick and Michonne (playing house after time skip).
Hell, why don't we skip ahead a year? That way we can explain that Rick has had a change of heart and he's deeply sorry about killing the saviors. That way we don't have to write in the development.
The scared and crying hysterically part was clearly an act to let her keep the rosary beads without them being suspicious. As we saw, the second she was alone, she used it to keep the tape and escape
I was trying to think what was significant about Carol still having the rosary when Rick showed up. That was a long time to be holding on to them when she likely would have discarded them after she was free. Holding to your conviction leads to blood? Has Carol committed herself to her own set of principles again even if it might bring her pain?
Yeah she still had it, but the initial part was to get them to allow her to have it. That's why she stuffed it in her pocket, and after was working her hands free. They play this by showing more of her hands free as ep went along. She was even handling the cig with ease because she got her hands loose enough.
True, but acting like that was definitely to lower the Saviours' guards and let her keep the beads. That's why she grabbed it, and then put it in her pocket, then freaked out and let them give her the beads. So they wouldn't be suspicious or take them from her.
Everyone is going to interpret the show the way they want to. I didn't see some scared of her own shadow character. I saw someone who has killed on numerous occasions and is starting to feel the weight of those killings and it's starting to get to her but if that's how you see it then to each it's own and no I don't see it as a step back for her character. If anything it's only developing a newer character. Her ruthless killer storyline can only go so far before she's completely as Rick put it " too far gone ". She can always come back!
She did, but she also put her life and Maggie's into the hands of a complete stranger. That's completely out of character for her. That's what I have a problem with.
Again I think this is overstating things. Ultimately she did the exact opposite of what she wanted to do x8 for well being of a loved one, which has been the thing driving 95% of the hard decisions/choices she's made. That she struggled with it doesn't diminish her character in anyway, shape, or form IMO.
And it always comes back to "but we don't see it happen due to the time skip". Sane Same thing happened with Rick and Michonne (playing house after time skip).
Hell, why don't we skip ahead a year? That way we can explain that Rick has had a change of heart and he's deeply sorry about killing the saviors. That way we don't have to write in the development.
No new seeds were planted during the time jump. It simply moved things along they'd already set up. Watch Carol's reaction after the Wolves attack or any of the examples I cited last page.l, this was anything but left field.
Also Rick and Michonne were playing house fron day one, and the writers started hinting at the two getting together late in S4.
For people who have read the comics, I'm curious about something:
Has Negan developed a sort of personality cult around himself? I'm wondering what the "we are negan" stuff was about in this episode. Does he try to brainwash people or are they genuinely loyal to him?
They discovered the farm house. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered the prison. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered Woodbury. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered the Terminus. Things were good for a while then it went tits up. They discovered Alexandria. Things were good for a while then it went tits up.
Those last two points are a little disingenuous. While the first three were season long arcs, Terminus, the actual place, was only (sparingly, I might add) in 3 episodes and things almost immediately went south there. We're talking like 2 scenes in. And Alexandria is still kicking and represents a turning away point from the type of narrative rehashing you're describing.
But Morgan is wrong though. Of course it's important to stay true to your humanity, but what Morgan is saying is just wrong. To put it blunt: All life is not precious. Not life that ends other life without mercy, ruthless, brutal, and evil.
That type of life is not precious and deserves to not have life of its own in an apocalypse like this.
From his perspective he is right though. He was a person that would end life without mercy, ruthless, brutal, and evil. Now he isn't, he came back from the abyss.
From his perspective he is right though. He was a person that would end life without mercy, ruthless, brutal, and evil. Now he isn't, he came back from the abyss.
His perspective is warped, as was Eastman's. He discovered an ideology and is sticking to it dogmatically. No matter what world you live in, doing so can make you blind.
For people who have read the comics, I'm curious about something:
Has Negan developed a sort of personality cult around himself? I'm wondering what the "we are negan" stuff was about in this episode. Does he try to brainwash people or are they genuinely loyal to him?
Negan is pretty much full of himself. He thinks he's king of everything and everyone needs to fall in line with what he says and his rules. His ego is pretty damn big is what it comes down to. When people say they are Negan it's pretty much them acknowledging Negan is king. At least that's how I always interpreted it.
Lets go retro. Who remembers the brith of the ricktatorship. What a great speech. The way he just calls the group out on all their whiny bullshit. Daryl stood up for Rick. That annoying ass face Lorie makes as if she's horrified when she has always been the one pushing him and pushing him. Carol calling herself a burden and hating on Rick. Which is something you'll never see today. So much has changed. Glenn looks like a 13 year old asian boy.
since then he has gone from full blown ricktator to more nuanced ricktator. He gives the group the illusion of choice but he knows he's always right and still runs shit lol.
Lets go retro. Who remembers the brith of the ricktatorship. What a great speech. The way he just calls the group out on all their whiny bullshit. Daryl stood up for Rick. That annoying ass face Lorie makes as if she's horrified when she has always been the one pushing him and pushing him. Carol calling herself a burden and hating on Rick. Which is something you'll never see today. So much has changed. Glenn looks like a 13 year old asian boy.
since then he has gone from full blown ricktator to more nuanced ricktator. He gives the group the illusion of choice but he knows he's always right and still runs shit lol.
IGN: How much of it was Carol putting on an act, and how much of it was authentic in her actually living that fear?
McBride: I enjoyed doing that because it's intentional that it's blurry to us as the viewer. There's more story that's going to be told that will give us more insight into what was real or what was not or where did the play acting end and she begin and all of that stuff.
As expected one thing I think I read or watched Norman reedus say in an interview is gimple is very precise about things and that he sees it as an overall . Little things from like season two or three come into effect and effect even storylines now. I'm sore there is a bigger picture to carol
