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[poppabk]

This shit is embarrassing to read. Quit because the story is dumb. Quit because characters are boring. Or quit because they killed off your favorite character. But don't fucking tell me you're quitting now because it was too brutal or gory cause that's a bunch of bullshit. These people seem to want their brutal zombie apocalypse show but only if they approve of who or what it's brutal to. Give me a break.

I don't think they were saying it was too gory for the most part but that it is too manipulative. Some of the plotting is pretty obviously written around maximising ad views. Not quite as bad as something like how to get away with murder (currently revealing which cast members aren't dead, one per episode) but this whole mini-arc has been pretty bad.

 

[Master Thespian]

Even if Rick could overpower Negan (lol), then what? Buncha tough guy Daryls in this thread would have gotten everyone else killed. Smh

 

[Surfinn]

Two things about this, yes Rick n Co are messed in the head, but really they have only been seriously messing with him for what, an hour at the most that would have really messed with Rick's head? Rick had no issues up till they were surrounded in the woods, the time from that moment to being in the RV with Negan alone amounts to what, 1 hr? 3 tops?

Rick has been portrayed as a "action hero" type for the last few seasons really. So its not out of the question or realm of argument.

I don't see any great argument where a brawl between Rick and Negan in the RV would instantly lead to Negan winning. Rick is distressed.. when people are crazy they are even harder to fight. When rick and Negan are directly beside each other Negan couldn't have used his gun, it would have been a straight brawl at that point.

This is what you have to realize though.. their group (and Rick especially) has never been in a situation where they're forced to doubt themselves. The doubt comes in when Rick starts thinking about what will happen to the rest of his family if he tries to kill Negan and return to fight literally hundreds of armed people who are holding his people hostage. Not to mention no one has ever been brutally murdered in front of them while they could do literally nothing but watch in disgust out of fear of making things worse. Hershel was killed brutally but that just started a war. They have always been able to DO SOMETHING about the situation they're in.

This is what makes Negan different. He gets into your head. He crumbles your confidence. He forces you into submission by holding what you find most valuable in a death grip.

The people who are arguing "but he could have overpowered him" are missing the entire threat Negan brings to Rick and co. (ie killing everything they love and live for in retaliation).

 

[Tomeru]

Been with the show for a long time now and I'm hopeful that the show runners end the show sooner than later. The cast, crew and fans deserve an end.

Thta doesn't make any sense at all. You want them to stop working on a show they clearly love?

 

[Beefy]

This thread is crazy

 

[bigedole]

Just want to talk super fast about this snippet:

lol at that Verge opinion piece.

This is The Walking Dead where a young adolescent boy had to shoot and kill his pregnant mother, where we watch characters we love being captured by cannibals and they eat him before he's dead, a show where we saw two young girls being executed by those that were protecting them - for the greater good.

Ric and his gang have been walking around like the cock of the walk thinking they were invincible and in control. They are an in apocalyptic end of the world zombie nightmare.

They have just been shown they are mot invincible and they are not in control by an even bigger monster than the zombies. A fucking sociopath with a smile.

I get that last nights episode was harrowing, gut wrenching and tragic all rolled into one hour of tv drama but this isn't Cheers or Happy Days, this is The Walking Dead.

If only they went for Glenn and Maggie then the mock outrage faux offence would have been turned up to 11

I think the symbolism at the end of the episode, where Rick is getting into the RV and he sees a walker come out of the forest was just amazing. The show is about this apocalyptic end of the world zombie nightmare, but it's clear here that what we the viewer (through Rick) really fear isn't the zombies, but what other humans are capable of doing in this world. I thought this episode was great and though I wish they had put Abe's death in the season 6 finale I can understand why they didn't ($$$). As a comic reader, really excited to watch the rest of this arc unfold!

 

[Exploratory]

Well I couldn't agree more. Last night's episode was horrible. It would've been less awful if we didnt come from a stupid 7 month long cliffhanger. It was needlessly cruel and gore-y.

I can't deal with these posts anymore I'm about to catch a ban hammer ABANDON THREAD.

 

[LowParry]

Even in Ricks attempts for that axe, he was pretty damn fast in getting it yet Negan was already prepared with a rifle. I don't see how Rick could of won in that situation.

 

[bidguy]

didnt the governor fuck rick up before ? and that dude was just an office drone. im sure a guy whos commanding hundreds of violent maniacs can defend himself against an exhausted guy who spend the entire day running around trying to get his people to a safe place.

 

[darkstar0155]

This is what you have to realize though.. their group (and Rick especially) has never been in a situation where they're forced to doubt themselves. The doubt comes in when Rick starts thinking about what will happen to the rest of his family if he tries to kill Negan and return to fight literally hundreds of armed people who are holding his friends hostage. Not to mention no one has ever been brutally murdered in front of them while they could do literally nothing but watch in disgust out of fear of making things worse. Hershel was killed brutally but that just started a war. They have always been able to DO SOMETHING about the situation they're in.

This is what makes Negan different. He gets into your head. He crumbles your confidence. He forces you into submission by holding what you hold most valuable in a death grip.

The people who are arguing "but he could have overpowered him" are missing the entire threat Negan brings to Rick and co. (ie killing everything they love and live for in retaliation).

But if Rick kills Negan without the people knowing (and hundreds? There were maybe 50 that we could see, not that that's still not a lot but still....) than that threat is gone. I definitely feel that the writers could have gotten them out of that situation without any more creative liberties than they have taken before.

Just pointing out again that im not saying it would have been the smartest move, or the worst move, just that the idea in and of itself isn't as ridiculous and unbelievable within the context of the story as some are making it out to be.

 

[Surfinn]

Even if Rick could overpower Negan (lol), then what? Buncha tough guy Daryls in this thread would have gotten everyone else killed. Smh

This, exactly. There's no situation that doesn't end with everyone dying (choosing to kill Negan and return with the RV).

 

[darkstar0155]

Even in Ricks attempts for that axe, he was pretty damn fast in getting it yet Negan was already prepared with a rifle. I don't see how Rick could of won in that situation.

that attempt had no chance, but the numerous times rick and negan where directly beside each other is a completely different scenario (like when rick is walking in and out of the RV)

 

[Lorcain]

However, Rick has certain advantages that Negan doesn't... which will be explored.

I agree, when Rick reveals that he's secretly British, all hell will break loose. Imagine Carl's reaction when he learns his real last name is Clutterbuck.

 

[More_Badass]

Well I couldn't agree more. Last night's episode was horrible. It would've been less awful if we didnt come from a stupid 7 month long cliffhanger. It was needlessly cruel and gore-y.

No, Negan was cruel and it wasn't needless

And to be honest, it was no less gory than any other zombie deaths we've been seeing for years. Remember Daryl stabbing Meryl's face in? Or Rick literally degloving a zombie's face? Or Michone slowly decapitating a walker by pulling a chain through its neck?

Except suddenly it goes from "yeah, awesome, cool walker kill!" to "oh fuck this is horrific" when the victim is alive

But besides that, the episode wasn't relentless gore-porn. It was only about three of four minutes out of what...50? That's precise deliberate gore for effect

 

[Surfinn]

But if Rick kills Negan without the people knowing (and hundreds? There were maybe 50 that we could see, not that that's still not a lot but still....) than that threat is gone. I definitely feel that the writers could have gotten them out of that situation without any more creative liberties than they have taken before.

Just pointing out again that im not saying it would have been the smartest move, or the worst move, just that the idea in and of itself isn't as ridiculous and unbelievable within the context of the story as some are making it out to be.

OK, explain this to me.. how does Rick kill Negan and keep it from everyone else.. and rescue his group?

I just don't think you guys are thinking this through. There's no way out.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The Verge quitting the show. Can't say I blame em.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/24/...-7-premiere-recap-review-end-of-quitters-club

Whether it was faking Glenn’s death, dropping Polaroids of bashed-in heads into shots to tease comics fans, or the seemingly endless almost-reveals of new bad guy Negan, The Walking Dead seemed more about hyping itself than about telling a story.

Guys, Walking Dead has been pro wrestling from the start. I don't know what people saw in this show before now, it's always been about rotating characters and going forward with no long-term plan. They're just making sure they keep you hyped for that next PPV main event.

Walking Dead is better in wrestling in that it actually explores loss as a theme rather than just pretending that exiting character never existed. That's about it.

 

[darkstar0155]

This, exactly. There's no situation that doesn't end with everyone dying (choosing to kill Negan and return with the RV).

There definitely are plausible (for this show) scenarios where numerous of them could live in that situation.

 

[Surfinn]

No, Negan was cruel.

And to be honest, it was no less gory than any other zombie deaths we've been seeing for years. Remember Daryl stabbing Meryl's face in? Or Rick literally degloving a zombie's face? Or Michone slowly decapitating walker by fighting a chain around its neck.

Except suddenly it goes from "yeah, awesome, cool walker kill!" to "oh fuck this is horrific" when the victim is alive

But besides that, the episode wasn't relentless gore-porn. It was only about three of four minutes out of what...50? That's precise deliberate gore for effect

This was vastly different.. not necessarily for the combination of gore, taunting, begging, and torture of Glenn and Maggie. That shit was heart wrenching and vastly more emotionally impactful than anything we've seen on the show thus far. I'm not arguing one way or another in terms of whether it was "right" or "wrong", just pointing out the difference that's making people more upset than usual.

There definitely are plausible (for this show) scenarios where numerous of them could live in that situation.

They're really isn't, though. The fact that you can't think of a scenario really drives the point home. They're stuck in this shitty situation and have to deal with just getting everyone out alive who is left.

 

[Betty]

Can't believe anyone was down on this episode, it was pure entertainment, JDM is playing his part so well and Lincoln is constantly impressing me.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I would think neegan probably communicated to the 2nd in command guy if Rick emerges with neegan dead, to immediately execute his whole crew. I don't see why they wouldn't. Maybe they wouldn't kill the women ... for reasons ... but Rick only has reason to believe neegans people are extremely loyal to him given everything that's happened. They murdered a bunch of people in their sleep for fucks sake.

Neegans people aren't just gonna drop everything like, oh neegans dead? Lets just let this crew go.

Rick knows that isn't what would happen. This has to be a subversive game to insite a strong faction of neegans people into rebellion against him. You can't just cut the head off the snake at this point. First you have to convince the right people that they don't want the snake around anymore so you can adequately plan for and predict the fallout without everyone you care about dying (or worse).

Rick knows things have changed for the time being, and it's going to take a long time to get out of the situation they're in with neegan.

 

[darkstar0155]

OK, explain this to me.. how does Rick kill Negan and keep it from everyone else.. and rescue his group?

I just don't think you guys are thinking this through. There's no way out.

Rick and Negan were all alone for half of the episode. A scenario where rick either sneaks back with Negan's gun or something similar is well within the realm of possibility for this show. Whos to say they all had to survive? Maybe just Rick, Carl, and Daryl survive, or Rick Carl Daryl and Michonne?

 

[Tomeru]

The Verge quitting the show. Can't say I blame em.

http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/24/...-7-premiere-recap-review-end-of-quitters-club

Nice blog.

Can't believe anyone was down on this episode, it was pure entertainment, JDM is playing his part so well and Lincoln is constantly impressing me.

Its because they feel disrespected. Thats whats happens when people think everything is about them. Even a tv show.

 

[studyguy]

Guys, Walking Dead has been pro wrestling from the start. I don't know what people saw in this show before now, it's always been about rotating characters and going forward with no long-term plan. They're just making sure they keep you hyped for that next PPV main event.

To me it just sort of boils down to the added characters due to simply limited budget and time just don't seem nearly as interesting and are never as fleshed out as the old. No doubt the arc will be interesting if you read the comics but beyond that? I don't know. I just sort of shut off and go with it but eventually the beats feel like they're tapping out on Rick and his crew. I'd say cutting to a new one might do it but FtWD has been so mediocre I don't know if I can say AMC would do it justice.

Like the foregone conclusion is that all these dudes are dead, but making them jump through cheap hoops and plot armor moments makes it a bit tired till AMC sees fit to toss another actual star to the grinder to keep the machine rolling. It is what it is though, so what can you do? You're locked into the premise and the only direction is down. All these dudes are going to die eventually so complaining about it isn't really worth much, the journey there just seems so cheap sometimes.

 

[SneakersSO]

Personally, I was done with the show with how they ended it last season. I was so happy word got out of who was being offed in the premiere ahead of time so I could just avoid the thing. I decided I would tune into the premiere just to see how they handled it, since they had received such a backlash in the off months that various people, including Kirkman, swore it was for a good reason and it would all make sense when we saw it.

Nope, it didn't. I wrote on here last year that what lost me as a viewer with the cliffhanger was that TWD & its production had decided to let good storytelling take a back seat to selling bigger & more expensive ad spots. Last year the finale was so rife with ads, we literally got almost 2 ad breaks before Rick & Co. hit another literal roadblock and had to turn around. Then, even after facing 7 months of ire, they start the season & wait 15 minutes to give us the reveal, just so they can sell one of their biggest ad spots yet (don't think I didn't notice them premiering footage of a new Dishonored 2 CG ad there).

Again, its marketing before storytelling, and to me as an audience member, it just means the production still just views me more as a person they can sell stuff to to make money on first & foremost, rather than as a fan who is engaged in the character & stories they could potentially tell. Honestly, the premiere dragged. It just goes to show how much of a hinderance the cliffhanger was to what this 'moment' was meant to be that they had to go & rebuild Rick as this fearless leader who will do anything for his crew, just to break him down again, when they did EXACTLY that in the finale - the finale ended last year with Rick giving off this horrified expression & him basically conceding there was no out for him, only to come back and have him go all defiant just to break him down. Again.

Yeah, its just not for me anymore. Its not that i'm over the premise or aesthetics. Its just that the show is getting in its own way now. But we all knew that - people who had read the comics knew the significance of the Lucille intro, and anyone with half a brain could tell you why splitting it in half was the worst decision ever. 7 months and several half-assed explanations later, and it still continues to be.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Can't believe anyone was down on this episode, it was pure entertainment, JDM is playing his part so well and Lincoln is constantly impressing me.

I can't believe anyone finds brutality and extreme violence to be "entertainment", but hey, this is a country where we can't hear "fuck" on TV but a guy smashing in a person's head with a baseball bat is totally fine.

 

[Surfinn]

Rick and Negan were all alone for half of the episode. A scenario where rick either sneaks back with Negan's gun or something similar is well within the realm of possibility for this show. Whos to say they all had to survive? Maybe just Rick, Carl, and Daryl survive, or Rick Carl Daryl and Michonne?

You aren't providing a scenario that works, just saying "well he could have sneaked back with Negan's gun".. OK, then what? I'm not trying to be rude just pointing out that there's no scenario where Rick and co. escape alive.. unless Rick drives off and just never comes back (leaving everyone else to their fate).. given he can even overpower Negan which is really unlikely considering Negan's character and his ability to manipulate people and situations.

 

[FZZ]

Rick is the same guy who bit off some dudes throat when he was literally looking death in the eyes

He could've killed negan

 

[Sigmaah]

Ppl complaining about too much violence from a show that's supposed to be violent af. Shit comes straight from the comic too... like what are we complaining about lmao.

That wasn't gore-porn or whatever tf the term is.

It's just the walking dead.

 

[Tomeru]

I can't believe anyone finds brutality and extreme violence to be "entertainment", but hey, this is a country where we can't hear "fuck" on TV but a guy smashing in a person's head with a baseball bat is totally fine.

Because it serves a point. It wasn't a single out of context video of someone bashing skulls. It helps to have perspective when judging something.

 

[Surfinn]

Rick is the same guy who bit off some dudes throat when he was literally looking death in the eyes

He could've killed negan

This is different. He's doubting himself because he knows the rest of his group will be murdered if he kills Negan. There's just no way around it. What would happen? He comes back armed and demands everyone let them go and walk off into the sunset after having just murdered their leader?

Like I said, a lot of you are NOT thinking this through.

 

[Spiritwalker]

That was cruel, but I expected it to be. This scene would have had a lot more impact if they didn't wait 7 months to show it though.

 

[NotSelf]

I like the show because main characters are always getting killed it's why i'm still watching there's always loss. But you would think after all the killing and loss done in ricks group that they would be unmoved by the

Spoiler

death of glenn and abraham

why make the characters cry?

 

[Kraftwerk]

Just came in here to say that I am in love with Negan. His smile is infection.

 

[Surfinn]

I like the show because main characters are always getting killed it's why i'm still watching there's always loss. But you would think after all the killing and loss done in ricks group that they would be unmoved by the

Spoiler

death of glenn and abraham

why make the characters cry?

Really? Glenn has been with them from the first episode of the entire show. Why on earth would the main characters not be moved by his brutal death?

 

[Nibiru]

Rick's friends and son were hostages of Negan's crew! Why are people suggesting that Rick should have killed Negan? Are some thinking that if he killed Negan they they would kneel to him? That doesn't make any sense lol.

 

[FZZ]

This is different. He's doubting himself because he knows the rest of his group will be murdered if he kills Negan. There's just no way around it. What would happen? He comes back armed and demands everyone let them go and walk off into the sunset after having just murdered their leader?

Like I said, a lot of you are NOT thinking this through.

Hmm I suppose but at the same time I think a person would've been in so much shock they wouldn't think just act on instincts

Negan just seems like a more pure Governor, one that is completely focused on getting what he wants and ruling by complete power. Then again it's just been one episode so I'll see how it goes

Btw I think the performances are great it's just the way they're developing the characters I feel doesn't make much sense if you think too much about it, even for a show about zombies

 

[darkstar0155]

You aren't providing a scenario that works, just saying "well he could have sneaked back with Negan's gun".. OK, then what? I'm not trying to be rude just pointing out that there's no scenario where Rick and co. escape alive.. unless Rick drives off and just never comes back (leaving everyone else to their fate).. given he can even overpower Negan which is really unlikely given Negan's character and his ability to manipulate people and situations.

Rick sneaks back, pops a head shot to Mr. No. 2, than starts spraying bullets.

Henchmen scatter and start taking cover, in the chaos the rest take cover, some are killed (aaron, sasha, etc).

Darryl gets free, takes a guy out in the chaos grabs a weapon, as does Michonne. Carl just runs for wherever rick is while all the chaos is going on. They all scatter and only a few survive.

that's just one scenario off the top of my head. Yeah, unlikely but not much more ridiculous than other things that have happened on this show.

I could also come up with a scenario where Rick uses the RV.

 

[bidguy]

I can't believe anyone finds brutality and extreme violence to be "entertainment", but hey, this is a country where we can't hear "fuck" on TV but a guy smashing in a person's head with a baseball bat is totally fine.

you know this show is about zombies right ? we have seen countless brutal death scenes just look at noahs death. why is it a problem now ? this is not a show for kids or faint hearted people and yes some people think of it as entertainment you do realize theres a horror industry right ? ive seen practically all pf them and last nights episode doesnt even come close to torture porn, i thought it was just more of the same

this shit is getting seriously overblown by some people

 

[LastGamer84]

I enjoyed Negan's talk with Rick in the RV.

I was memorizing his lines for when Rick inevitably turns the tables (either this season or the next).

I expect this to be a rebuilding season though, with the group getting their confidence back until they are ready to strike back. I personally loved the episode.

 

[Surfinn]

Hmm I suppose but at the same time I think a person would've been in so much shock they wouldn't think just act on instincts

Negan just seems like a more pure Governor, one that is completely focused on getting what he wants and ruling by complete power. Then again it's just been one episode so I'll see how it goes

But that was the entire point of this episode. Rick, as the groups hardened leader, knows that he cannot just act out because he's smart enough to know they're really, really fucked. He chose to do the most difficult thing on earth.. submit until it's over.

You're forgetting that Rick and Daryl already tried something and it just made the situation a million times worse.

 

[More_Badass]

Rick is the same guy who bit off some dudes throat when he was literally looking death in the eyes

He could've killed negan

I think you're underestimating Negan.

As if he hasn't dealt with survivors just as desperate as Rick before. Of course he has. Why do you think this whole song and dance exists?

We see Rick as this unstoppable force that can overcome anything when he's desperate but that's just because he's our protagonist. But he he's not. He was just dealing with people less brutal than him.

 

[Lumpy Onion]

Kinda surprised how much I liked it after seeing the low scores on my usual sites. Seeing Rick blubbering like that was one of the hardest things to watch in the entire show run imo. Overall a damn intense episode and Negan definitely made his presence known (JDM was fun to watch). I'm excited to see where this goes.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Because it serves a point. It wasn't a single out of context video of someone bashing skulls. It helps to have perspective when judging something.

entertain (verb) - provide (someone) with amusement or enjoyment.

Hence my point; I don't find brutal violence enjoyable or amusing. And for the record, the excessive gore was not necessary to tell that story. Lingering on Glenn's face, seeing Negan swing over and over, it was all gratuitous, I guess to please people that get off on that stuff.

you know this show is about zombies right ? we have seen countless brutal death scenes just look at noahs death. why is it a problem now ? this is not a show for kids or faint hearted people and yes some people think of it as entertainment you do realize theres a horror industry right ? ive seen practically all pf them and last nights episode doesnt even come close to torture porn, i thought it was just more of the same

Zombies gore is cartoon-level stuff. It's obviously fake. Humans being brutal to each other is entirely different psychologically.

 

[dustyherb]

Rick is the same guy who bit off some dudes throat when he was literally looking death in the eyes

He could've killed negan

Of course he could've killed Negan if he really tried and wanted to. But that would not have been the smart choice at all. It's better to just accept what's happened and take the L. Why risk getting more people killed or possible everyone killed when their group just lost 2 huge assets.

 

[darkstar0155]

I think you're underestimating Negan.

As if he hasn't dealt with survivors just as desperate as Rick before. Of course he has. Why do you think this whole song and dance exists?

We see Rick as this unstoppable force that can overcome anything when he's desperate but that's just because he's our protagonist. But he he's not. He was just dealing with people less brutal than him.

Its doubtful he has found others as strong as rick, since Negan is the first person we have seen that has gotten the upper hand on rick and co (and only after the show made rick and co. make a bunch of retarded decisions completely out of their character to get them to that point).

 

[WickedLaharl]

Rick is the same guy who bit off some dudes throat when he was literally looking death in the eyes

He could've killed negan

And then everyone else including his son would have died.

 

[Surfinn]

Rick sneaks back, pops a head shot to Mr. No. 2, than starts spraying bullets.

Henchmen scatter and start taking cover, in the chaos the rest take cover, some are killed (aaron, sasha, etc).

Darryl gets free, takes a guy out in the chaos grabs a weapon, as does Michonne. Carl just runs for wherever rick is while all the chaos is going on. They all scatter and only a few survive.

that's just one scenario off the top of my head. Yeah, unlikely but not much more ridiculous than other things that have happened on this show.

I could also come up with a scenario where Rick uses the RV.

So Rick, Michonne, Carl, Daryl, and maybe one or two others are going to escape on foot after having a gunfight with an army of 50+? Or they all get into the RV and drive off?

Nah. They're not killing a significant amount of people in that situation before dying themselves. We're talking an army of people who just realized Negan is probably dead.

They're not getting out alive. None of them. If Negan and his army was smart enough to block every single exit on the road Rick and co. were driving on, they're not letting them escape under any circumstances.

Maybe if we're talking about 5-10 people or something. They had double that just waiting at every EXIT while they were driving.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

you know this show is about zombies right ? we have seen countless brutal death scenes just look at noahs death. why is it a problem now ? this is not a show for kids or faint hearted people and yes some people think of it as entertainment you do realize theres a horror industry right ? ive seen practically all pf them and last nights episode doesnt even come close to torture porn, i thought it was just more of the same

this shit is getting seriously overblown by some people

Yeah noahs death was gruesome. Personally I'd take the bat over being eaten alive.

 

[More_Badass]

entertain (verb) - provide (someone) with amusement or enjoyment.

Hence my point; I don't find brutal violence enjoyable or amusing. And for the record, the excessive gore was not necessary to tell that story. Lingering on Glenn's face, seeing Negan swing over and over, it was all gratuitous, I guess to please people that get off on that stuff.

Considering the reactions of my family last night, it sure as hell wasn't to please people that get off on that stuff

Do you think it would have been more effective to not show that stuff? How would you have done it?

But I do think seeing Negan swing over and over absolutely is part of establishing his character.

 

[darkstar0155]

So Rick, Michonne, Carl, Daryl, and maybe one or two others are going to escape on foot after having a gunfight with an army of 50+? Or they all get into the RV and drive off?

Nah. They're not killing a significant amount of people in that situation before dying themselves. We're talking an army of people who just realized Negan is probably dead.

They're not getting out alive. None of them. If Negan and his army was smart enough to block every single exit on the road Rick and co. were driving on, they're not letting them escape under any circumstances.

It wouldn't be much more unbelievable than many of the other things that have happened on the show imo.

Just pointing out again im just playing devils advocate.