Plus the insane demonization of her by the GOP for decades.
I agree with this. We need to stop blaming each other and unite as a single entity against Trump and is I'll, or we'll be destroyed again.
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1 In 10 Sanders Primary Voters Ended Up Supporting Trump
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Plus the insane demonization of her by the GOP for decades.
I agree with this. We need to stop blaming each other and unite as a single entity against Trump and is I'll, or we'll be destroyed again.
I'll take A and B
Yeah, thats definitely illogical. People need to lay off the blame on Sanders for inspiring his supporters when the race was still on. Especially because he did publicly support Clinton after the primaries. Just seems like a stretch to blame him, instead of the voters themselves, doesnt it?
Man, some of my fellow Bernie primary voters were...awful. Cannot wrap my head around that jump. Aside from being "anti-establishment" in the most shallow, ignorant ways.
Does this mean that 25 percent of Clinton 2008 primary voters were...uhh..
10% of self-identified Democrats voted for McCain in 2008 (Yes really, per Pew). A number that tracks almost exactly with the number of Clinton supporters in the primary who said they wouldn't vote Obama.
Acerac
Banned
Anxious about the economy, yes.
cheezcake
Member
Based on exit polls which are notoriously unreliable compared to the many planned surveys done a while after the election, all which place the number at closer to 25%.
There are always people in these 1v1 primaries who would never vote Democrat who vote for the "challenger" figure just for the sake of "sending a message." Whether they're lost votes or not is up for debate.
Hell, the rural white portion of Sanders' coalition was Hillary's coalition in 2008! Which tells me that it's less about ideological or candidate loyalty and more about just political resentment within a coalition that doesn't 'matter' within the D coalition anymore.
Can't ignore the fact that racial and gender resentment likely play a huge role in both of those numbers, as well.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You're mixing up stats. 25% of Clinton primary voters in 2008 voted McCain. 10% of people who identified as Democrats. They're different groups.
And if Obama had lost due to those 10% (or 25% whichever number) I would be blaming Clinton for that loss. Fortunately Obama won so why do people keep bringing that up as some excuse for Sanders' actions? If he and his supporters can't handle blame being put on him maybe he shouldn't have run in the first place.
I thought you were joking at first.
Except Sanders told people to go out and vote for Hillary after the primaries were done. Was he not allowed to run for President?
El_Tiguere
Member
The clear conclusion of all of this is that Hillary Clinton should not have run in the first place.
Audioboxer
Member
Man, America, please please please please stop talking about Hillary Clinton by 2018. I've said it a few times now in one or two other topics, but it's getting strange/worrying so many of you keep talking about a candidate who didn't win almost a year later. Is it some sort of shell shock where you keep reliving 2016? There are many reasons she fell short, but at the end of the day, you've now all been arguing about them for almost 12 months. Yes, some Dems might have swung to Trump, but, it's as I keep saying elections are often won on small margins like 5~15% and this isn't new news. Focus on those who might swing, and on stay at homes, but really, you need to start focussing on what candidate(s) is going to be running in the future.
Maybe it's just British politics but when we end up losing (recently being whoever is running against the Conservatives), the ex-running candidate steps down, we analyse for a few months tops, and then it's who is to be the new leader and how do we sort the party out? Aka moving forward. Miliband resigned from Labour May 2015 when defeated, Corbyn was elected as leader in September 2015. 4 months for a new leader to be sorted. Is it really this long and drawn out in American party politics?
There are a few more months to keep reliving your Hillary vs Bernie 2016 campaign until it's 2018. Get it all out and then stop. Hillary is dead. She isn't running for 2020. Sort out who is and don't be a disorganised, bitter and argumentative mess for facing Trump in 2020. Please. Signed, the rest of the world. Many of us would rather not see a 2 term Trump (or even Republican party). Honestly not trying to stifle debate, it's just GAF is my main window into American politics and as an outsider, it is just hugely discouraging to still see so much Bernie vs Hillary arguing, and general Hillary arguing, when we're nearly in 2018.
Edit: Just so it's clear I do get some of the frustrations with swing voters. I live in a country that seems to have voters who routinely swing from Labour to Conservative then back to Labour then back to Conservative. These people are partly how you end up with Governments changing. Large portions of people vote the same way from the day they are born till they die. Some of them are just write offs and they won't change. Swing voters are who you are interested in and while you might be angry some went Trump this time, the point is they could be swung back for 2020. Let off some steam due to this article, okay, but 10% is a small number and if you want them back unfortunately some people need a bit of effort other than just "you're a piece of shit for not voting how I wanted you to this time around".
Maybe it's just British politics but when we end up losing (recently being whoever is running against the Conservatives), the ex-running candidate steps down, we analyse for a few months tops, and then it's who is to be the new leader and how do we sort the party out? Aka moving forward. Miliband resigned from Labour May 2015 when defeated, Corbyn was elected as leader in September 2015. 4 months for a new leader to be sorted. Is it really this long and drawn out in American party politics?
There are a few more months to keep reliving your Hillary vs Bernie 2016 campaign until it's 2018. Get it all out and then stop. Hillary is dead. She isn't running for 2020. Sort out who is and don't be a disorganised, bitter and argumentative mess for facing Trump in 2020. Please. Signed, the rest of the world. Many of us would rather not see a 2 term Trump (or even Republican party). Honestly not trying to stifle debate, it's just GAF is my main window into American politics and as an outsider, it is just hugely discouraging to still see so much Bernie vs Hillary arguing, and general Hillary arguing, when we're nearly in 2018.
Edit: Just so it's clear I do get some of the frustrations with swing voters. I live in a country that seems to have voters who routinely swing from Labour to Conservative then back to Labour then back to Conservative. These people are partly how you end up with Governments changing. Large portions of people vote the same way from the day they are born till they die. Some of them are just write offs and they won't change. Swing voters are who you are interested in and while you might be angry some went Trump this time, the point is they could be swung back for 2020. Let off some steam due to this article, okay, but 10% is a small number and if you want them back unfortunately some people need a bit of effort other than just "you're a piece of shit for not voting how I wanted you to this time around".
Hollow words. He stayed in the primary way past his expiration date. He had already spent the primary attacking her and you think that doesn't leave a mark on his base and undecided voters? I felt comfortable blaming him then and I am more sure every day that he deserves the blame for this.
GillianSeed79
Member
So the overwhelming majority of Sanders supporters and primary voters fell in line and voted for Clinton, yet somehow its Sanders' supporters fault for Clinton losing? How about blaming Clinton for running a piss poor campaign? You guys act like all Bernie supporters are idiots and to blame. She ran a bad campaign. I'm not even going to mention the 28 percent of Clinton primary voters who voted for the Republican nominee in 2008. Fuck, she didn't even campaign in the rust belt, yet it's Bernie's fault she lost those States?
GameAddict411
Member
The ship has sailed, and we just have to move on to fight this. I am pretty sure a lot of those voters didn't think it through and now regret it. Lets just hope we still have this country by Trump's end of the term.
You can be sure all you want, there is no data that supports your stance. Hillary lost for a few different reasons, but most of all, she just was not a popular candidate. Hell most people I know in my life told me they don't like Clinton. Her reputation was just THAT bad. No fault of her own really, I like Clinton. Lots of factors, Bernie is waaaay down on that list.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
This really isn't that many, tbh. How many GOP primary voters who voted for other candidates ended up voting for Clinton?
Idk how you could quantify it but there are some voters that try and get the weaker opposition nominated in open primaries. I was thinking briefly of doing this and voting for trump in the primary. By the time my state came up he was already winning though.
El_Tiguere
Member
The unfortunate thing is that re-litigating 2016 IS 100% a conversation about the future of the party. You once again had the full power of the corporate machine running against the underdog standing up for the needs of Americans who are many in economic crisis mode. A robotic self-dealing Manchurrian candidate, versus the genuine social justice warrior who is backed by the grassroots. It's an endless fucking battle in this country decade after decade (but it's getting more and more desperate).
Despite deliberate sabotaging by the corporate press, deliberate collusion between old corrupt DNC insiders and donors to elect their candidate, despite a vicious power-hungry political dynasty pulling all their strings along with David Brock propaganda bullshit arm... despite clear evidence of electoral fraud and tampering with the primaries to ensure a Clinton victory... despite all of that there was one message that was resoundly delivered (just how Corbyn delivered it to the British)... that people under 45 and people with no loyalty to the tired corrupt corporate parties overwhelmingly want someone like Bernie. That his FDR New Deal 2.0 platform is what the country and the world needs. Corporations and their captured party stand in the way.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
This.
I'm willing to bet the vast majority of Bernie Flippers just want to see the government burn. They don't care as long as it is different.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Yeah, there's plenty of JonTron's out there.
It wasn't just about who ultimately voted for who though. You had plenty of who knew they were going to undoubtedly vote for Clinton after Bernie's loss but yet still played the part of the primary opponent, essentially using the same tactics and sources of a Trump supporter until the end of the line. (some probably still are). It was a nonstop bombardment on Twitter and also on here with certain posters never missing an opportunity. (and of course that nonsense that took place at the Democratic Convention)
That's some helpful shit right there.
It wasn't just about who ultimately voted for who though. You had plenty of who knew they were going to undoubtedly vote for Clinton after Bernie's loss but yet still played the part of the primary opponent, essentially using the same tactics and sources of a Trump supporter until the end of the line. (some probably still are). It was a nonstop bombardment on Twitter and also on here with certain posters never missing an opportunity. (and of course that nonsense that took place at the Democratic Convention)
That's some helpful shit right there.
AmayaPapaya
Banned
Why are you blaming him? There are so many thing that Clinton could have done to win, had she done things differently. Obvious things too, that ex-presidents suggested for her. She didn't do it.
Why, out of all the reasons, do you attack her primary opponent, whose voters supported her by 90%??? Why? That is like the least significant reason she lost. If anything, you solution is to eliminate primary opponents which is a terrible way about this. We need to support Democracy, in which primary election are essential.
Despite all that, it seems more of his supporters showed up for Clinton than Clinton supporters did for Obama. There's always going to be some that vote outside the party after a primary and this phenomenon doesn't seem especially high with sanders voters so it's nonsensical to blame him or his supporters generally.
I admit that this is totally unfounded, I feel like there is a subset of people who are more interested in a radical shakeup - whether due to their opinions on the current state of things or due to being attracted to the energy - then they are in any particular left/right platform. Sanders and Trump both offered revolutions.
Audioboxer
Member
I mean I guess this is a fair rebuttal to what I just said. Maybe the 3 or 4 posts I've made in the last month about American politics is just a bit of building up fear watching you guys go at it like it's reliving the campaign again. The division within your own party and the overall fallout is like nothing seen in any other left leaning political party. I don't even think the Corbyn drama with backstabbing and power fights in the Labour Party is like anything Clinton vs Bernie and what Clinton losing has caused. So the fear is you're all consumed still by the fallout and arguing into 2018 and maybe even 2019. Yes, Trump is doing a great job of tanking his and his parties approval ratings and making a right mess. However, don't just count on the opposition being shit to win an election. That's partly what Clinton did just pointing out over and over that guy Trump is terrible. Your candidate can't do that again in 2020 even if Trumps whole 4 years are all a disaster. The campaign this time around has to be more like Obama's.
What I would say in general is yeah, the youth is a good area to focus on and by large the youth does like a candidate who doesn't appear to just be a multimillionaire career politician. America is a much bigger country than the UK though, and your politics are largely disgusting when it comes to money. So a candidate for their own prospects of competing is naturally going to be stupidly wealthy and have to have very rich and powerful backers. Still, Bernie at least appeared quite "like" Corbyn in some of the messages he put out and the way he came across. That obviously appealed strongly to some Americans. This isn't necessarily me endorsing him for 2020. I actually think that would be a huge mistake. Bernie needs to be avoided as well. Dems would be better off with a fresh face, probably younger, but sure, with some similar messages to what Bernie said. If Bernie ran for 2020 all that would happen is it would be bitterness around Hillary Clinton, still raging on in 2020. Not worth it. In my opinion anyway.
there are a lot of people who are not well informed politically but understand that the current system doesn't work for their interests and is unsustainable, yes
most of them don't vote
Gunblade47
Neo Member
I was all about that bernie hype but I just dont get this at all. Like wtf did they think would be to gain from voting trump even after bernie warned that a trump presidency would be disastrous?
1 in 10 is a low number in an average election. But we're fucking talking about so-called socialists and people fighting for economic transformation 180ing and voting for the guy that was born with 3 platinum spoons in his mouth, that cant even dream of the economic inequality the poor are facing today.
Trump was the snake oil salesman and they fell for it. Smh
1 in 10 is a low number in an average election. But we're fucking talking about so-called socialists and people fighting for economic transformation 180ing and voting for the guy that was born with 3 platinum spoons in his mouth, that cant even dream of the economic inequality the poor are facing today.
Trump was the snake oil salesman and they fell for it. Smh
the reason it's still happening is because it's necessary for us to understand why we failed if we want to succeed going forward. to the left, the party failed because it was too far right. to the center, the party failed because leftists poisoned the well and refused to vote against fascism. some people think that clinton was just uniquely flawed or unsuited to be a candidate for the kind of race that it turned out to be and dems can win again without changing anything.
my personal read is that democrats have been trying to win over the mythical moderate for the last 30 years and their base is deserting them in increasing numbers because those kinds of politics are not good for them. i also think they will completely fail to learn this lesson and even if they manage to somehow retake the senate and/or the presidency they will continue to govern from the center and further disenchant people who want real left wing policies until the republicans take over again and the democrats implode from lack of popular support.
in 20 years the party will either be further left or non-existent. or we'll all be dead. imo.
Conciliator
Banned
Really though, anyone who wants just any fuckin revolution is playing ball but has no idea what the fuckin game is about. This is something to me that really speaks to our moment. The idea that dudes are out here voting for candidates just in hopes that they don't get bored. For how many people is this shit not even real?
the thing is really going to have to burn halfway down before people re-learn that we're playing for keeps.
Bernie barely attacked Clinton at all. If anything, Clinton swung the hardest.
And ultimately it wouldn't have mattered how long he would have stayed in the race. Bernie or Busters were anti-Clinton from the very beginning. That's ultimately why they supported Bernie. They didn't develop anti-Clinton sentiment after Super Tuesday, it was there from the start.
Source for this 2008 stuff that is remotely as credible as the OP's source for 2016? Like, not a poll taken during the peak of the primary?
28% sounds like this poll from March of 2008, and not something that is remotely indicative of the general election.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/105691/mccain-vs-obama-28-clinton-backers-mccain.aspx
I was a big Sanders guy but he's not far left enough for me now. I want someone who breathes smoke and fire and truly wants to destroy capitalism, right now.
Admittedly I still vote for the useless dems because I'm not an accelerationist and still care about short term harm minimization.
Admittedly I still vote for the useless dems because I'm not an accelerationist and still care about short term harm minimization.
Rumblebones
Banned
The hysteria was always overblown. That should have been evident when polls indicated Bernie supporters had more favourable views on minorities than Clinton supporters - of whom like 30% (?) voted McCaine.
IF GAF is any indication then I don't see democrats and liberals in general having a good time during the mid terms or the 2020 election.
IF GAF is any indication then I don't see democrats and liberals in general having a good time during the mid terms or the 2020 election.
Please, do you have a source for this? It is tremendously difficult to reconcile that with Obama winning the popular vote by 7%. People seem to be thinking that polls taken peak bitterness of the primaries is accurate for what actually happens in November, but, hey, that gels with Sanders supporters insisting that he'd crush Trump based on a bunch of polls taken after he lost the primary.
BudokaiMR2
Member
More people leading the platforms really need to take to heart the fact that at the end of the day, the presidential election is a glorified popularity contest and most votes are going to be mis-informed. As depressing as it is, this election just further proved you can't win on policy alone.
Through almost no fault of her own, Hillary always had an unfavorable rating and Bernie was mostly new on the stage for most so that didn't exist. The GOP would have went in hard on him but I really don't think their propaganda machine could have matched the 10 years of defamation they used against Clinton in less than a year.
Through almost no fault of her own, Hillary always had an unfavorable rating and Bernie was mostly new on the stage for most so that didn't exist. The GOP would have went in hard on him but I really don't think their propaganda machine could have matched the 10 years of defamation they used against Clinton in less than a year.
Jesus Christ just move to Venezuela then. Capitalism got the USA to where it is today. Do we have problems in society today? Of course. But destroying capitalism isn't the solution.
And_Gignac
Member
More proof that Bernie Sanders would have won.
the_lizard
Member
Just remember guys, 1 in 10 is only 10%. Don't use this as more fuel to irrationally hate ALL Bernie supporters.
The dems do seem quite rudderless at the moment. I hope somewhere behind the scenes someone is plotting something. It feels to me at least the media is the one taking up the fight v Trump. You have the media putting him on blast and various groups protesting but where exactly is the Democratic Party? I feel like I get a fundraising email once a week and crickets.
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
It shows they never really cared about being anything other than contrarians.
And_Gignac
Member
Not a fair comparition anyway. Clinton 2008 voters and Clinton 2016 voters are two very different type of people.
Okay, the Yale stuff seems more interesting, and doesn't put so much faith in just its model.
Still, it's very hard to get good data and reconcile Obama's giant victory with such massive defections from a candidate that essentially tied him in primary voting.
I don't think it's so much a matter of wanting to see the government burn as it is that they want to see a change for the better. As twisted as it may sound, I think we need an example like this to show everyone that everything needs to improve. My worry in this regard is that I honestly don't have enough faith in a lot of people to learn the right lessons from all of this. Thinking that Trump won because of hate means being every bit as dismissive as the people you claim just want to see the government burn. Our government and elections need to improve on every level so we have more good candidates. We also need to get away from this two-party rut and make independent candidates more viable, and I daresay that this past election would've been the ideal time to do it. It would've been in everyone's best interest to make this a four-way race than for it to essentially remain a two-way race, even if it meant Bernie and a decent conservative candidate going independent to siphon votes away from both Hillary and Trump. Instead, everyone got complacent and seemed to forget that Trump ultimately always had a 50% chance of winning, because he was one of two candidates that were worth voting for while people tried to guilt independent voters out of voting for the candidates they actually supported.
Oh yeah, no one has blamed Hillary Clinton at all since the election.
Not one person. Anywhere. Or ever.
Nonsense aside.....
This isn't surprising. Hell its low compared to what I expected. And the data surrounding:
Is nearly "No duh" territory. Those vibes were strong as hell everyone online and in person all throughout the primary season. If we could get the percentage that simply stayed home instead of voting, it would probably be huge as hell too.
For some, they just seemed to support "Fuck the Democrats". That was their platform. Look at it that way and a lot of stuff makes sense, including their flip vote.
Joe T.
Member
That's a great summary of the situation and I see it in much the same way. I was shaking my head at all the blame being thrown squarely at the Bernie->Trump voters in this thread, despite the numbers provided not being extraordinary by any measure. It's clear that those voters aren't the only ones that could stand to learn a thing or two. I have no doubt a small percentage of them did it knowing full well what a disaster Trump would be, just wanting to burn it all to the ground.
I have little doubt that Dems will make some gains in 2018, but I'm not sure it will lead to a whole lot of change in the grand scheme of things. That giant, widening chasm between Democrats and Republicans needs to be sewn up somehow. The entire culture is in need of repair.
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