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[TheKayle]

Apparently, because Mark Cerny hasn't gone into detail about what it does, it does nothing, according to TheKayle

...yes coz he told us also how big his shoes are.....so i think he would talk more about it if was something of special ..

 

[Petalpusher]

Same core with more frecuency usually performs better at usual PC gaming loads that doesn't make use of more threads or are directly unaware of more hardware resources.

Yes that's true, at higher framerate. If you aim for really high framerates like in Bioshock for example, cpu limitations kicks in obviously. With consoles locked at 30/60fps (for good reasons) that is certainly a different context and they will always be gpu limited first. BF3 also uses a far more modern, and taxing, engine than all of theses games.

That's not true on consoles. As an example. Didn't devs use the SPU's on the PS3 to aggressively cull geometry before feeding it to it's relative weak GPU?

PS3 SPUs could be seen as GPU material or something in between (DSP), they were certainly used like this. They are not CPU parts in the common sense (that would be the PPE).
What we are talking about with the next gen cpus are real general purpose CPUs and even with lots of specialized offload.
I don't think they are that weak for what they are intended to do. It's a nice upgrade from the PPEs of PS360.

 

[cebri.one]

no you will just have less gpu flops...available...

You just made this up.

 

[TheKayle]

but your math is CPU specific is it not?

you have to take somewhere that compute power

in fact i dont really know how much flops less..you would have ...dont know how perform cu's to do audio....but reading bkillian he dont think devs will take the cu's audio way

 

[goonergaz]

as i said ..10% is the minimum

move engine and as u like to call the dedicated audio silicon free.(that on xb1 ms called shape)..cpu and gpu resource...

so should be from 9.38% (sorry if i said 10 ..really sorry) to more than 31%

but PS4 has dedicated h/w too - chips for downloading and streaming IIRC, you're only talking about half the story and that's the problem.

in black and white it's a ~10% advantage

 

[JonathanPower]

...and ignoring the fact that it's not having SHAPE that frees up a core, but having dedicated audio silicon that frees up a core.

So, let me do new math for you:

(6 * 1.75) / (6 * 1.6) * 100% = 109.38% (9.38% advantage)

Do you understand your errors in assumption yet?

And also ignoring the fact that we don't know how many cores are reserved for the OS on PS4. If less than 1 core is used for the OS, the PS4 would have a CPU advantage.

 

[Osiris]

...yes coz he told us also how big his shoes are.....so i think he would talk more about it if was something of special ..

I was joking for exaggeration / effect, I didn't actually think you were serious, oh my...

 

[Jburton]

I just wish that both systems would come out already so Xbox fans can stop with the silly persecution complexes and confirmation biases.

Especially after the kicking Sony and the PS3 took during the current gen.

Lets see how well they handle it.

 

[Skeff]

The PS4 has also an Audio DSP.

Fact's? where we're going we don't need facts.

But Honestly I feel the best approach to this is if everybody quietly leaves the thread until theKayle is finished posting then we'll all come back later and have a discussion about it.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Certain people are involved with the conversation that really take away from this thread.

This is still good news. Let's hope some of us don't lose sleep or get too high and mighty over this.

 

[sickamore007]

Good news. Although is strange that MS is bumping the frequency clocks when the machine is suppose to be in production. I mean the stress tests must be done with 1.6 Ghz and 800 Mhz, not with the new clocks.

I am guessing you were there when they didnt test it right.

 

[TheKayle]

but PS4 has dedicated h/w too - chips for downloading and streaming IIRC, you're only talking about half the story and that's the problem.

in black and white it's a ~10% advantage

streaming dont take lots of resources ...balancing,mixing,adding effects...and maybe MAYBE reverbering take cpu resources if u dont have something that isnt an hw mp3 streamer that do it for you

 

[DEADEVIL]

The conclusion that I can draw from each next gen revelation is summarized in a few lines

- MS paywall for multiplayer -> no way
- SONY paywall for multiplayer -> full party

- PS4 hardware advantage -> Better games for sony
- Xbone hardware advantage -> not decisive, + RROD possibilities

- PS4 hardware Customization -> Cerny god and better performance for PS4
- Customization in Xbone hardware -> Complications for developers

- Exclusive PS4 confirmed at 30 fps -> 30 fps is enough
- Exclusive Xbone confirmed at 30 fps -> Weak hardware

- Multiplatform with better framerate in PS4 -> Will be the trend throughout generation
- Multiplatform with better framerate in Xbone -> Lazy devs or microsoft moneyhatting

and so on...

Tone is par for the course since X1 reveal as others have pointed out, but it is what it is. Definitely going to be a outstanding gen for both consoles despite the usual console war banter. Still good X1 news, Look forward to owning both eventually.

 

[p3tran]

that's cute, says EmptySpace.

empty space might think whatever, but the fact here is that this generation the gaming consoles jumped down from desktop+ tech, to notebook- tech.

and this is a fact, either you and me like it or not.

I am sure many pretty gifs will exist from both machines, but facts remain facts, even in empty spaces.

 

[Chobel]

streaming dont take lots of resources ...balancing,mixing,adding effects...and maybe MAYBE reverbering take cpu resources if u dont have something that isnt an hw mp3 streamer that do it for you

Well developers won't use those if will affect PS4 performance. if they need 6 cores they will 6 cores and use mp3.
Nobody is forcing developers to use advanced effects on PS4.

 

[Osiris]

streaming dont take lots of resources ...balancing,mixing,adding effects...and maybe MAYBE reverbering take cpu resources if u dont have something that isnt an hw mp3 streamer that do it for you

So you don't actually understand what a DSP is then do you?

(Hint, a DSP, tasked to audio, does all those things, it's not just an "MP3 streamer".)

 

[Tiberius]

empty space might think whatever, but the fact here is that this generation the gaming consoles jumped from desktop+ tech, to notebook- tech.

and this is a fact, either you and me like it or not.

I am sure many pretty gifs will exist from both machines, but facts remain facts, even in empty spaces.

only for the cpu, the gpu are clearly desktop tech

 

[cyberheater]

PS3 SPUs could be seen as GPU material

No they are not. They are definitely CPU parts. And used in thousands of servers across the world with no GPU's in sight.

My point. Is that you can use a multicore CPU to offload some of the workload of a GPU in a console. That doesn't tend to happen on the PC space.

 

[KidBeta]

streaming dont take lots of resources ...balancing,mixing,adding effects...and maybe MAYBE reverbering take cpu resources if u dont have something that isnt an hw mp3 streamer that do it for you

Let me guess, your years of programming experience tells you this? I have a feeling that you could do a large amount of sound effects on a CPU rather easily if you didnt mind sacrificing a bit of accuracy.

 

[TheKayle]

Fact's? where we're going we don't need facts.

But Honestly I feel the best approach to this is if everybody quietly leaves the thread until theKayle is finished posting then we'll all come back later and have a discussion about it.

ok let put in this way so we all will be happy

IF the audio dsp in the ps4 can totally free up the cpu from the audio work ( and i have big doubts about this ) the gap will be just 10%
IF audio will take some resources this can grow up for more than 31%...here we go

 

[cebri.one]

Are there any of the CPU cores completly dedicated to audio? Doesn't seem like it.

 

[TheContact]

oops wrong thread

 

[TheKayle]

Let me guess, your years of programming experience tells you this? I have a feeling that you could do a large amount of sound effects on a CPU rather easily if you didnt mind sacrificing a bit of accuracy.

i was missing you

 

[Wynnebeck]

There are various degrees to having persecution complex, obviously, with some symptoms relating to schizophrenia. Meta-posting is frowned upon here, but I don't see how my post is any different from your original one quoting other people and pointing out "persecution complex".

Wait, you don't see how me quoting people displaying bias is different then you going into my post history for specific words in order to bolster your argument? Man, I need to go outside more.

 

[cyberheater]

So you don't actually understand what a DSP is then do you?

(Hint, a DSP, tasked to audio, does all those things, it's not just an "MP3 streamer".)

A DSP is just a specialized microprocessors. It doesn't magically do any of those things. it depends what the function of that custom piecer of silicon is tasks to do.

 

[Osiris]

A DSP is just a specialized microprocessors. It doesn't magically do any of those things. it depends what the function of that custom piecer of silicon is tasks to do.

That's why I specifically stated "tasked to audio".

I'm actually trying to simplify it enough for TheKayle to maybe, just maybe grasp, that may prove impossible though

 

[TheKayle]

That's why I specifically stated "tasked to audio".

I'm actually trying to simplify it enough for TheKayle to maybe, just maybe grasp, that may prove impossible though

a dsp could just be used to unpack and stream mp3 files and from the explanation of cerny is what the dsp of the ps4 do

 

[Chobel]

ok let put in this way so we all will be happy

IF the audio dsp in the ps4 can totally free up the cpu from the audio work ( and i have big doubts about this ) the gap will be just 10%
IF audio will take some resources this can grow up for more than 31%...here we go

Even if the difference is 31%, Xbox is still lacking 41% on GPU.
And No, the difference isn't 41-31=10%.
PS4 =1.94, Xbox=1.44 difference = 0.5TFlops ---> PS4 is 35% more powerful

Spoiler

The math is wrong, I know. But it's true enough for Thekayle

 

[p3tran]

only for the cpu, the gpu are clearly desktop tech

umh.. no?
a laptop with a gtx680mx, I think it runs circles around xbone/ps4 gpu's

and guess what? these things come in sli's too for laptops.

now add the cpu advantage, and tell me again how gpu-wise we are at desktop level, because we are not even close to top laptop level.
Let alone the fact that desktop-level gpu is at least 2x more powerful than my example above, without even taken sli and stuff into consideration.....

 

[cyberheater]

Are there any of the CPU cores completly dedicated to audio? Doesn't seem like it.

KZ splits all the work up into scheduled jobs that are spread across all available CPU cores. It's a very efficient way of coding. It doesn't use dedicated threads/CPU cores for anything.

 

[Skeff]

ok let put in this way so we all will be happy

IF the audio dsp in the ps4 can totally free up the cpu from the audio work ( and i have big doubts about this ) the gap will be just 10%
IF audio will take some resources this can grow up for more than 31%...here we go

But the gap is 10% IF the PS4 is 1.6ghz and 2 cores reserved, we don't know either of those facts. <10% is the maximum gap, Maths isn't open to interpretation.

 

[TheKayle]

But the gap is 10% IF the PS4 is 1.6ghz and 2 cores reserved, we don't know either of those facts. <10% is the maximum gap, Maths isn't open to interpretation.

k 9.38% is the minium gap

 

[ElTorro]

Are there any of the CPU cores completly dedicated to audio? Doesn't seem like it.

The thing with custom (= programmable) real-time audio processing it that its utilization highly depends on the specific game. One game might compute a dynamic doppler effect for passing cars. Other games might not do anything special (prorammable in real-time) on audio streams at all. It's not valid to generally assign some amount of computation to audio.

Here we have an exemplary scheduling plan for a game engine from Jason Gregory's (Naughty Dog dev) book:

"Audio" is only part of "Other stuff" in the main thread. It's hard to make a general statement. Also, it is unclear to me which specific audio tasks are hardware-accelerated. Much of SHAPE is pretty generic encoding/decoding and Kinect/Media-related stuff. There is a general scalar processor in there for processing audio streams (including some encoding/decoding work) and another processor for manipulating frequencies. I have little knowledge about audio processing, so I can't really judge the scope of application.

 

[Ubiquitar]

Isn't it concerning that a system supposed to be in production is getting tweaks left and right to the CPU and GPU? I find it very strange that they're still dickin around with the system a couple of months before release.
Is this essentially overclocking? Which in turn will affect how hot the system gets, no?

 

[cyberheater]

That's why I specifically stated "tasked to audio".

I'm actually trying to simplify it enough for TheKayle to maybe, just maybe grasp, that may prove impossible though

Okay

 

[KidBeta]

k 9.38% is the minium gap

assuming that the PS4 clocks haven't changed, they never mentioned the CPU clocks.

 

[gaming_noob]

Wait, you don't see how me quoting people displaying bias is different then you going into my post history for specific words in order to bolster your argument? Man, I need to go outside more.

Most of the time I don't even know what I'm arguing about. I'm just here for my hobby bruh.

 

[Chobel]

The thing with custom (= programmable) real-time audio processing it that its utilization highly depends on the specific game. One game might compute a dynamic doppler effect for passing cars. Other games might not do anything special (prorammable in real-time) on audio streams at all. It's not valid to generally assign some amount of computation to audio.

Here we have an exemplary scheduling plan for a game engine from Jason Gregory's (Naughty Dog dev) book:

"Audio" is only part of "Other stuff" in the main thread. It's hard to make a general statement. Also, it is unclear to me which specific audio tasks are hardware-accelerated. Much of SHAPE is pretty generic encoding/decoding and Kinect/Media-related stuff. There is a general scalar processor in there for processing audio streams (including some encoding/decoding work) and another processor for manipulating frequencies. I have little knowledge about audio processing, so I can't really judge the scope of application.

There you go Thekayle. read this before submitting any comment.

 

[Vizzeh]

How do we know that the kinect/OS doesnt require the extra processing power where sony doesnt need because of the rumoured secondary ARM chip on the ps4, according to J Rigby. Gpu's seem to br doing the large portion of the work anyway

So the extra processing may not matter or could be just useful PR talk.

 

[ElTorro]

PS4 =1.94, Xbox=1.44 difference = 0.5TFlops ---> PS4 is 35% more powerful.

If we wanted to be that "precise", we should also recognize that the XB1's OS reserves 10% of GPU time (for snap), leaving 1,18TF for games.

 

[TheKayle]

assuming that the PS4 clocks haven't changed, they never mentioned the CPU clocks.

true

and you think is 1.6 right?

 

[Skeff]

umh.. no?
a laptop with a gtx680mx, I think it runs circles around xbone/ps4 gpu's

and guess what? these things come in sli's too for laptops.

now add the cpu advantage, and tell me again how gpu-wise we are at deskotop level,
because desktop level gpu is at least 2x more powerful than my example above, without even taken sli and stuff into consideration.....

Price?

Both XB1 and PS4 have stronger GPU's than the average Steam user according to the Steam hardware survey.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

So you don't actually understand what a DSP is then do you?

(Hint, a DSP, tasked to audio, does all those things, it's not just an "MP3 streamer".)

Not really. A DSP offloads whatever their fixed functions can manage and nothing else. The more things it supports, the less CPU assist it will require.

Let me guess, your years of programming experience tells you this? I have a feeling that you could do a large amount of sound effects on a CPU rather easily if you didnt mind sacrificing a bit of accuracy.

It works in the other way. Software tends to be more accurate than hardware at the expense of performance.

 

[Faith]

If we wanted to be that "precise", we should also recognize that the XB1's OS reserves 10% of GPU time (for snap), leaving 1,18TF for games.

And the PS4 has no OS? So there are no resources needed for a OS?

 

[KidBeta]

true

and you think is 1.6 right?

I'm not sure, but until otherwise I would assume it hasn't changed, but them not saying anything should give a indication that it might be atleast somewhat fluid.

It works in the other way. Software tends to be more accurate than hardware at the expense of performance.

It is not fixed any way shape or form, the software is free to do whatever the hardware can, theres no need to sacrifice speed nor accuracy unless you really want to, or have to.

 

[JonathanPower]

KZ splits all the work up into scheduled jobs that are spread across all available CPU cores. It's a very efficient way of coding. It doesn't use dedicated threads/CPU cores for anything.

Regarding Killzone audio, here's an interesting quote:

http://www.edge-online.com/features/killzone-shadow-fall-and-the-power-of-playstation-4/

Animation networking quality was much higher, I think it&#8217;s just basically been proven that the amount of time it takes AI programmers to get their code up and running in parallel is so much easier that it just enables us to do much more. Of course we were optimising towards 30fps, making sure we didn&#8217;t drop a frame &#8211; or that we dropped a few frames but not very many &#8211; basically just making sure it ran smooth. And this is a launch title, we&#8217;ve just got new hardware and we weren&#8217;t using some of the hardware acceleration for stuff like audio at the time we did the demo, which we have now done. So I think there&#8217;s a lot more left in the system.

 

[twobear]

KZ splits all the work up into scheduled jobs that are spread across all available CPU cores. It's a very efficient way of coding. It doesn't use dedicated threads/CPU cores for anything.

I remember ages ago Valve saying that this was like the holy grail of multicore work, and that having each core do a separate task was horrible and inefficient. Interesting stuff.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

a dsp could just be used to unpack and stream mp3 files and from the explanation of cerny is what the dsp of the ps4 do

Maybe your old Nokia DSP is limited to that, so it can play those awesome real ringtones.

 

[ElTorro]

And the PS4 has no OS? So there are no resources needed for a OS?

PS4 has no snap feature. Snap requires GPU resources, since the snapped Metro app needs to render and display stuff. Why would PS4 need reserved GPU resources? It makes sense on XB1, it doesn't make much sense on PS4.

 

[eastmen]

Isn't it concerning that a system supposed to be in production is getting tweaks left and right to the CPU and GPU? I find it very strange that they're still dickin around with the system a couple of months before release.
Is this essentially overclocking? Which in turn will affect how hot the system gets, no?

Your asumption that they woke up yesterday and decided to up the clocks sre wrong. They have had this in the works fkr awhile