I guess there's no time for love when Thor is out nuking Japan.
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18 years later, and Persona 2 remains the most progressive JRPG about homosexuality.
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
I guess there's no time for love when Thor is out nuking Japan.
P2 desperately needs an actual update. ISP is so frustrating to play, I could not stand it for more than maybe 30 minutes at a time.
BTW, I popped onto 9Monsters (the most popular gay app in Japan) when I was there for TGS, and... based on that I feel like Tokyo could be in the running for gayest city in the world.
Just the sheer number of people on there made WeHo Grindr seem sparse by comparison.
So that's something I've thought a lot about since with regards to Japanese LBGTQ representation.
Just the sheer number of people on there made WeHo Grindr seem sparse by comparison.
So that's something I've thought a lot about since with regards to Japanese LBGTQ representation.
And yet still infinitely more fun than EP.
I don't consider myself qualified either. It would feel strange to me, as a straight man, to say of anything, "This is the best representation in [Persona/JRPGs/video games] of something I have no personal experience with." I would rather not speak for those people on their behalf; better to let them speak for themselves and elevate their voices.
Anyway, that's all I have to say about it.
Don't mind me asking, but are there any LGBTQ characters in your game? I'm not demanding you have to put them in, mind you, just wondering.
No.
http://wildarms.wikia.com/wiki/Brad_Evans
Yeah, there's a reason I never bothered with EP. If the "update" was that bad I cannot one of the original games can be anything but terrible.
BinaryPork2737
Unconfirmed Member
It's okay, the heroine from SMT I is
destined to be with the player character anyway, since she's the reincarnated Eve to the PC's reincarnated Adam
Frozenprince
Banned
JRPG? One of the most progressive games period for it.
LGBT representation is still woeful.
LGBT representation is still woeful.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Yeah, I think it's honestly the actual game aspects of P2 that seem to put people off. Demon negotiation is kind of a hassle and the random encounters are abominable. Even I had trouble sticking with it.
But the tone, characters, and overall story are just god-damn, quite possibly the best in the series. A modern version that handles those things respectfully would do wonders.
Considering the aesthetic of the Radiant Historia remake that's a tall order.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
It's certainly a bit of forum hyperbole to proclaim something the greatest at doing something so personally affecting.
But... more importantly... uh, aren't you actually way more qualified to give some insight on this particular game?
E_Darkness
Member
Honestly I think that's a big opportunity missed in Persona 5.
Emil is a strong choice too, but its a bit unfair because it is not completely clear in the game. Hell the subtext isn't even in the Western version.
I'm going to have to play P2 at some point. They've been sitting on my Vita for a rainy day.
Apart from the flamboyant gay couple who are actually kinda bad, especially the beach scene. But I really think there was a good opportunity for Yusuke to be a gay romance option.
But I guess waifus are more important to them.
But I guess waifus are more important to them.
Emil is a strong choice too, but its a bit unfair because it is not completely clear in the game. Hell the subtext isn't even in the Western version.
I'm going to have to play P2 at some point. They've been sitting on my Vita for a rainy day.
cj_iwakura
Member
They're products of their time. I still enjoy them, never felt different from other turn based RPGs of the era.
I remember Raven and Lucius and their supports in Fire Emblem 7.
It's true though, the title of this thread is a huge sprawling statement and really only queer folks themselves should be able to say what best represents them. Same goes for any marginalized group.
Frozenprince
Banned
IS gets a bum rap too because it's so unforgivingly hard to begin with. But once you get about halfway it's much much easier to the point where you can break the systems.
The rumors mechanic will never not be cool to me.
It takes a bit longer to set up spells, but the auto mode then takes care of that.
Translation is a bit wonky tho. Eternal Punishment is a mustplay for the full Persona 2 experience.
It's progressive, but not THE most progressive ("The most" is an absurd qualifier to throw around for any game). I can't even imagine making that claim since it's ultimately subjective.
It's the opposite. That game is mindbogglingly easy. Not saying this as an SMT elitist either, the first major boss does single digit damage.
It's the opposite. That game is mindbogglingly easy. Not saying this as an SMT elitist either, the first major boss does single digit damage.
They're not great, mostly because the supports in Fates have a generally poor sense of progression, epseically when it comes to jumping from A to S support levels. It also featured this colossal screw-up so it's not exactly a good example of progressive relationships in a video game.
Persona 2 (both of them) doesn't get the credit it deserves for its impeccable handling of relatively mature themes, namely in regards to self-identity. It's a shame that the series, from Persona 3 onward, took a step backwards with the baffling inclusion of homophobia and transphobia.
meltingparappa
Member
This is actually something that has been bothering me with a lot of the Persona talk recently. If I was more eloquent, maybe I could make a thread about it, but I don't think I could properly frame it in a way that doesn't make people defensive.
As a queer man myself, Kanji's character in Persona resonated deeply with me. My adolescence was filled with a lot of unglamorous amounts of doubt and a lack of clear answers and confidence in something as primal as whom I felt attracted to. Specifically because of the ambiguity and warts of Kanji's problems, it felt like an extremely genuine representation of how I felt at that time, going through those same struggles.
A handful of my introverted gay friends who played the game were all similarly struck blind with how many feelings of stark recognition he brought up. Granted of course, this is a pretty small sample size.
Flash forward to eight years later, and there's no shortage of people throwing Hashino's team under the bus for LGBT representation, sometimes for what I can recognize as some pretty valid reasons.
The experience of figuring out where you fall on the kinsey spectrum isn't universal, and I can imagine my friends and I may very well be in the minority regarding how positively we view Kanji's characterization.
But I do get disheartened when I see a lot of (presumably) straight people citing him as poor, or inauthentic representation. Perhaps their heart is in the right place, but what passes a binary of 'is this good/bad semi-objective representation' is an incredibly bold claim to make when you're already part of the represented group, and feels fairly disingenuous if you're an outsider or ally.
So what is the point of this thread? To say that P2 is a cool fun game and P5 could stand to do a lot better? I'd actually agree, but I think using the authenticity of LGBT representation isn't a great way to make that point.
This is ridiculous. Straight people can and should think and form opinions about portrayals of homosexuality in the media. There are also different perspectives and nuances that are should be acknowledged and discussed. If you have a different perspective or think the OP is missing something then go ahead and add to the discussion. But what you're doing just comes across as defensively trying to shut down criticism.
Similarly, straight developers need to form perspectives and opinions on homosexual representation in their games. They can't just throw up their hands and say "Well I'm not gay so I'm not going to say or do anything about it".
Queer person here, lol. I can assure you there's a lot of us who feel as if we don't need to be shutting down the voices of other advocates for progressive representation in gaming just because they want to express their pleasure, bring awareness, and open discussion for what they feel is positive representation. Especially in this case, as I've also know a lot of queer people within this forum and within my circles that have expressed their joy for this character.
Tales from your ass.
dragonlife
Member
Yeah, so good we only know because of a book outside the game.
Emil, from Nier.
There was, like, one scene where it was even remotely hinted at, and it was subtle (even if I picked up on it 'cause I related. But even then, it could have just as easily been strong affection, especially since he's a kid and the US version uses Dad Nier...).
Automata's super cool about it, though. NPCs just saying girlfriend/etc with no fuss (don't think I've seen dudes say boyfriends yet). Acknowledgment is always better than eggshell-walking, and it's always a positive when someone's already okay with being gay/etc.
Not saying there's no room for coming-out arcs, because it can help some people cope for sure.
I think he may have translated a persona game or two during his tenure with Atlus.
Oh I know, I'm a fan from way back in the Gaming Intelligent Agency days! I just thought he was making a silly argument.
I think the whole Soleil thing is MASSIVELY misunderstood, since it's never even implied she was gay to begin with, but I agree that it definitely could've been written better because the premise itself is confusing and if nothing else invites the criticism.
...that being said, unless I'm mistaken, didn't the Fire Emblem Fates translation not translate the unique support conversations that you got for romancing the same-sex? I want to say I remember hearing something along those lines near release, though obviously I could be wrong. Anyone remember what's up with that?
...that being said, unless I'm mistaken, didn't the Fire Emblem Fates translation not translate the unique support conversations that you got for romancing the same-sex? I want to say I remember hearing something along those lines near release, though obviously I could be wrong. Anyone remember what's up with that?
No one is saying straight people shouldn't think and form perspectives on how LGBT people are represented in art and media. Straight, cis-gendered people shouldn't speak on these things too authoritatively though, either.
You can read every book and talk to every person in the world, but some experiences you simply don't know until you live them. As a black man, I'm not terribly interested in hearing a white persona opinion on, say, the absolute best movie about the evils of systemic racism. That doesn't mean I don't talk to my white fridges about race. I do often.
Some people think being a good ally is "staying in your lane", but I think a better way to put it is knowing and respecting your boundaries. You can do a lot of good work inside of those boundaries, wherever they're set.
I generally encourage LGBT, and female representation in all forms of media, but are you implying devs have an obligation to put in things in their game purely for representation's sake and not because they feel they would be a good fit for their game at large? Especially if they don't have the mind to put the effort or research into the decision to make it non offensive and as authentic as possible.
I feel like an area of criticism could come from that, any minority group could essentially make the argument that devs who aren't representative of a community don't have the right to preach or make commentary on something they don't represent or know anything about.
I felt especially uncomfortable in Prototype 2, where i was so happy to see a black man of my color in a game....only to see him portrayed and act like a mentally deficient gangster wanna be with a shitty angry sounding "black voice" popping off expletives all the time with barely any nuance to his character after the first cutscene. It was disappointing, and i would have liked to hear what the devs decision was regarding the making of the character.
He commented in an interview about everyone who travelled with Nier having a crush on him at one point or another. In the Gestalt version it comes off more as him looking up to Nier as something of a father figure.
Shutting down criticism or defending the later Persona games (assuming that's what you meant by "defensively," although I mean, I also worked on P2IS so I have no real dog in this fight) isn't what I'm about here, or else I wouldn't have linked two well-considered pieces critical of those games upthread. Nor am I saying straight people don't get to have opinions about LGBTQ content in games, because I definitely have opinions there too.
But I do try to make sure those opinions are informed by people with lived experience when it comes to the subject matter, as opposed to the ambient received wisdom on these matters from society at large. Maybe Jun is the best, but if he is, I'm more interested in that argument made from a place of knowledge as opposed to cultural assumptions.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
Jun always felt like the natural choice in Innocent Sin. Plus it makes him a better villain. His obssesion over avenging Maya's death doesn't come from anything romantic. He's a gay dude who saw a schoolgirl get murdered and is more than ready for the ultimate revenge for that. Very unique and so damn good. Gaming and cinema are filled with straight men seeking revenge for women. Innocent Sin has the gay dude seeking retribution for a girl's death. I deeply respect that.
It's a huge shame that FemC in Persona 3 cannot romance any other girls. So regressive. I never felt like any of the male romances fit. She should be with Mitsuru.
It's a huge shame that FemC in Persona 3 cannot romance any other girls. So regressive. I never felt like any of the male romances fit. She should be with Mitsuru.
Umm.. Enchanted Arms says hello
I know folks swear Vanille and Fang are lovers, but that's nowhere in any of the the FFXIII games IMO. I always thought of them as sisters. I would love a JRPG that outright said "this character is gay!" instead of hinting at it or innuendo. It might be a cultural thing?
Kanji's initial arc in P4 had my jaw on the ground. i thought "holy shit, this is it. A JRPG tackling whats its like to come out in high school, the shame.. the stigma.... the.. oh wait." It was so close.
So I will play JRPGs for the grinding, atmosphere and god killing, not so much for accurate representations of LGBTQ people.
And I'm 60 hours deep into P5 and not seeing what everyone is so upset about. Is it the two NPC's that hit on D-bag Ryuiji for like a hot second? They've had about 30 seconds of screentime so far, so I wasn't really upset by it.
Kidding!
I know folks swear Vanille and Fang are lovers, but that's nowhere in any of the the FFXIII games IMO. I always thought of them as sisters. I would love a JRPG that outright said "this character is gay!" instead of hinting at it or innuendo. It might be a cultural thing?
Kanji's initial arc in P4 had my jaw on the ground. i thought "holy shit, this is it. A JRPG tackling whats its like to come out in high school, the shame.. the stigma.... the.. oh wait." It was so close.
So I will play JRPGs for the grinding, atmosphere and god killing, not so much for accurate representations of LGBTQ people.
And I'm 60 hours deep into P5 and not seeing what everyone is so upset about. Is it the two NPC's that hit on D-bag Ryuiji for like a hot second? They've had about 30 seconds of screentime so far, so I wasn't really upset by it.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
That is really IYO. Because that was clear as a crisp spring morning.
It still could be considered problematic as a portrayal, which is the whole point. that kind of thing should not be in a game which proports itself to be about exploring semi progressive themes on exploring one's failings, and changing one's self and getting to know others beyond the rumors and the shallow bullshit of their appearance.
THe whole game constantly has people muttering stupid rumors under their breath about you that are not true, it should stay true to that in ever situation
Hmm, possibly. I just wish the game would've said it out right if it were the case instead of trying to have it both ways.
True, but I just think the hand-wringing over these two characters versus their screentime is a little overblown. I do think the game did a good job with the trans bartender.
But, I do wish you could boo up with the male party members.
Maybe in P6?
Can y'all stop it with that "are you qualified" bullshit? If you don't agree, then provide a counter example. It's that simple. I didn't see OP make the claim that he's an expert in the field of JRPG gay representation.
And what's frustrating about games like XIII and even Tales of Zestiria is that they skirt the line way too much without ever fully comitting. I do think Vanille and Fang were totally lovers especially by the end of LR, and Sorey and Mikleo was heavily implied too, but why just fuck around? Tell us they're a couple.
And what's frustrating about games like XIII and even Tales of Zestiria is that they skirt the line way too much without ever fully comitting. I do think Vanille and Fang were totally lovers especially by the end of LR, and Sorey and Mikleo was heavily implied too, but why just fuck around? Tell us they're a couple.
That's the plan.
I addressed this in an interview a while back, if you're interested in our take on it.
http://www.thegaygamer.com/2015/11/...visible-on-indiegogo-mac-pc-ps4-xbox-one.html
There is no trans bartender in P5. They make it very clear that Lala is just a drag queen.
The handwringing is because those two men are the only homosexual representation in P5. It makes it pretty clear what the developers think of gay people when the only ones in the game sexually harass a teenage boy and try to force him to strip.
metalslimer
Member
Its upsetting because it's the only representation an explicitly gay character gets. It's basically just saying haha gay people are predators and leave it at that. That's extremely problematic.
You are right in that it was quick which I was happy about because I was disgusted by the whole scene.
buddha0991
Member
I never tried it but I thought I heard you could romance Aigis or Elizabeth
I hear you. I guess I'm just so used to that trope in JRPGs that it didn't bother me. Also, Ryuji sucks and it's good to see him squirm. I would love Persona to be a truly progressive series when it comes to LGBTQ issues, but I'm not holding my breath.