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[cj_iwakura]

And it also really handled body positivity really well, with Eikichi being in love with a big girl whose weight was not used for jokes a la Hanako.

This is another good call out. Also, Eikichi totally accepts her for it, even though she's self-conscious about it for the entire game. All the characters in P2 are well fleshed out, warts and all. Tadashi really knows his character building.

There's way more to Jun than his Tatsuya interest as well(WAY more), but I just wanted to highlight how tastefully P2 handles his sexuality.

The rest would also be pretty big spoilers:

Spoiler

Not only is it about how Nyarlathotep manipulates his guilt into misplaced rage, making him into the Joker, but he also has a manipulative(arguably insane) mother and a passive father who pretty much let her walk all over him.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

This is another good call out. Also, Eikichi totally accepts her for it, even though she's self-conscious about it for the entire game. All the characters in P2 are well fleshed out, warts and all. Tadashi really knows his character building.

There's way more to Jun than his Tatsuya interest as well(WAY more), but I just wanted to highlight how tastefully P2 handles his sexuality.

The rest would also be pretty big spoilers:

Spoiler

Not only is it about how Nyarlathotep manipulates his guilt into misplaced rage, making him into the Joker, but he also has a manipulative(arguably insane) mother and a passive father who pretty much let her walk all over him.

ho yeah i forgot about kozy, that was quite nice! I really need to replay these

 

[Nottle]

I always felt like Kanji's issues were left with a bit ambiguity in order to be applicable to more types of people. You can look at it as him dealing with issues of not understanding he is queer and being afraid of how others will judge him so he inflates his masculine qualities.

Or you can view him as a person dealing with issues of gender roles. Is it ok to like things not assigned to your gender like sewing? Does that make me someone else in other's eyes, or am I still just me?

I've even heard one interpretation as him being asexual but not really understanding what that is? Though Takahata from TFS said that and I'm not really sure if this scenario can really be a case.

 

[Ganondorfo]

I never heard of Persona 2. Was it really obscure back then? I do know that Persona got popular from 3. I never noticed any marketing for P2 back. Was it released with another big game?

 

[Nottle]

ho yeah i forgot about kozy, that was quite nice! I really need to replay these

I have yet to play P2, but I've read on tv tropes that Kozy wishes to be thin, the wish is granted, and we have some aesop where someone says "I loved you for being you," and then eventually they solve the Shadow problem and she remains skinny. Which is sort of a messed up resolution In some ways. As long as you are nice, your partner will wish themself skinny and we won't have to deal with their chub any more.

 

[Holundrian]

I always felt like Kanji's issues were left with a bit ambiguity in order to be applicable to more types of people. You can look at it as him dealing with issues of not understanding he is queer and being afraid of how others will judge him so he inflates his masculine qualities.

Or you can view him as a person dealing with issues of gender roles. Is it ok to like things not assigned to your gender like sewing? Does that make me someone else in other's eyes, or am I still just me?

I've even heard one interpretation as him being asexual but not really understanding what that is? Though Takahata from TFS said that and I'm not really sure if this scenario can really be a case.

Playing the games in Japanese I always felt like that ambiguity seemed like a result of the localization to me. But I played the games years ago when I was younger and simply dumber so I might not be correct thinking the JP didn't carry that same ambiguity.
In the case that it was introduced through the localization I have to applaud them to make this choice, I think that's very cool and gives his story more layers.
Was hoping that localization could have done some magic for the P5 and toned down or even change the "predator" thing(give it a different context that would still make sense) but seems that's not the case. My single hope is AtlusUSA bringing it up to the team how stuff like that is viewed.

 

[cj_iwakura]

I have yet to play P2, but I've read on tv tropes that Kozy wishes to be thin, the wish is granted, and we have some aesop where someone says "I loved you for being you," and then eventually they solve the Shadow problem and she remains skinny. Which is sort of a messed up resolution In some ways. As long as you are nice, your partner will wish themself skinny and we won't have to deal with their chub any more.

She doesn't​ have a shadow, that's false. Eikichi hasn't seen her in years and she gained weight in the interim. He accept​s her for who she is.

 

[Nottle]

Playing the games in Japanese I always felt like that ambiguity seemed like a result of the localization to me. But I played the games years ago when I was younger and simply dumber so I might not be correct thinking the JP didn't carry that same ambiguity.
In the case that it was introduced through the localization I have to applaud them to make this choice, I think that's very cool and gives his story more layers.
Was hoping that localization could have done some magic for the P5 and toned down or even change the "predator" thing(give it a different context that would still make sense) but seems that's not the case. My single hope is AtlusUSA bringing it up to the team how stuff like that is viewed.

Agreed I really liked Kanji's story for the reason of ambiguity. I played it about 5 years ago and I thought to myself this character is brilliant. I'm not gay, so I could relate to his struggles with liking gendered things. I could remember playing with dolls or not liking sports as a child and thinking, man it's messed up to tell people what they should like based on gender. But I was also thinking this character could be really relatable for someone not understanding their queerness, someone who lives in a small town with not a lot of other queer people, someone big that looks like they should be playing football but really they just want to open up and be themselves.

I feel like Atlus could do a lot more with their characters to make them feel more like people.

We should be able to call out friends on their stupid bullshit like the constant teasing of the token dumb friend characters like Junpei, Yosuke, and Ryuji. Maybe that sort of thing actually really gets to them emotionally. They often do get hurt by other team mates for laughs.

We should be able to call out sexist or homophobic stuff from characters like Yosuke.

I think it would be interesting to have a girl on your team you can just never date, maybe she's gay, or just doesn't have any interest in you. I think it would also be interesting to have 2 team mates that are a couple and you see how their relationship changes independent of the player. Maybe one asks the other out early on, grow as a couple, you have to hear about their bumps in the road. Maybe they take a break from each other. You know, real stuff that may happens to highschoolers.

Playing p4 Yosuke and Chie always really bothered me because they seemed so hypocritical to the games themes.

She doesn't​ have a shadow, that's false. Eikichi hasn't seen her in years and she gained weight in the interim. He accept​s her for who she is.

I didn't say she had a shadow, though I was vague because I was going off a Wiki summary. Shadow Eikichi was the problem. Does she not wish to be skinny and then remain that way the rest of the game?

 

[sensui-tomo]

Have you played Inquisition? I found both Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition great for this. In DA2 Anders will flirt with your male Hawke regardless of whether or not he is straight, it was really refreshing. And obviously Inquisition has Dorian, who is one of the more interesting companions.

Also the I found the m/m Kaidan scenes in Mass Effect 3 super cute. It's weird, because that game has this weird celibacy thing where nobody will even so much as kiss until they're all about to die, but I really like the dialogue in their relationship.

would be nice if they could have implemented anders to do that without you know flanderizing his character from DAO:A (not the gay part, he seemed like he was gay back in DAO:A anyways i mean being an interesting companion ) Kaiden was written better in that aspect and also didnt consider you a rival if you didnt return his flirting, same with Dorian (aka well written in comparison to Anders)
I'm not saying that all characters need to be well written (except gaf does say this whenever a bad representation happens and i know why the damage is bad) just dont have your gay character be tied to the single most cringe worthy character in your game ala Anders.

 

[Syril]

I never heard of Persona 2. Was it really obscure back then? I do know that Persona got popular from 3. I never noticed any marketing for P2 back. Was it released with another big game?

It came out in America at the end of 2000 when the release of the PS2 was overshadowing pretty much everything.

 

[cj_iwakura]

It came out in America at the end of 2000 when the release of the PS2 was overshadowing pretty much everything.

And Innocent Sin didn't come out here on the PS1 at all.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Agreed I really liked Kanji's story for the reason of ambiguity. I played it about 5 years ago and I thought to myself this character is brilliant. I'm not gay, so I could relate to his struggles with liking gendered things. I could remember playing with dolls or not liking sports as a child and thinking, man it's messed up to tell people what they should like based on gender. But I was also thinking this character could be really relatable for someone not understanding their queerness, someone who lives in a small town with not a lot of other queer people, someone big that looks like they should be playing football but really they just want to open up and be themselves.

I feel like Atlus could do a lot more with their characters to make them feel more like people.

We should be able to call out friends on their stupid bullshit like the constant teasing of the token dumb friend characters like Junpei, Yosuke, and Ryuji. Maybe that sort of thing actually really gets to them emotionally. They often do get hurt by other team mates for laughs.

We should be able to call out sexist or homophobic stuff from characters like Yosuke.

I think it would be interesting to have a girl on your team you can just never date, maybe she's gay, or just doesn't have any interest in you. I think it would also be interesting to have 2 team mates that are a couple and you see how their relationship changes independent of the player. Maybe one asks the other out early on, grow as a couple, you have to hear about their bumps in the road. Maybe they take a break from each other. You know, real stuff that may happens to highschoolers.

Playing p4 Yosuke and Chie always really bothered me because they seemed so hypocritical to the games themes.


I didn't say she had a shadow, though I was vague because I was going off a Wiki summary. Shadow Eikichi was the problem. Does she not wish to be skinny and then remain that way the rest of the game?

It has nothing to do with Shadow Eikichi. A rival gang leader causes the problem. And no she doesn't. She stays overweight.

 

[Majmun]

The two stereotype gay guys in Persona 5 are an abomination.

Like, really?

 

[Deft Beck]

It's true though, the title of this thread is a huge sprawling statement and really only queer folks themselves should be able to say what best represents them. Same goes for any marginalized group.

I am a gay male, and I'd rather have a well written character of any sort over a paper thin LGBTQ character.

If you're going to do it, then please do it with respect and nuance.

As for everyone constantly citing Yosuke's sexism and homophobia, please note that by the end of the game he becomes a lot less of an asshole in those regards.

 

[Nottle]

It has nothing to do with Shadow Eikichi. A rival gang leader causes the problem. And no she doesn't. She stays overweight.

Explain the context of this scene for me. Looks like you fight a shadow Eikichi and Mayabi stays skinny.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T37NdcsAcdU

 

[cj_iwakura]

Explain the context of this scene for me. Looks like you fight a shadow Eikichi and Mayabi stays skinny.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T37NdcsAcdU

I think it's based on choices you make throughout the game, Shadow encounters will change. She didn't stay thin in mine.

 

[Thud]

I think it's based on choices you make throughout the game, Shadow encounters will change. She didn't stay thin in mine.

Correct, there some key events you have to do in order to obtain their ultimate persona, which also has some scenes attached to it.

 

[Nottle]

I think it's based on choices you make throughout the game, Shadow encounters will change. She didn't stay thin in mine.

That would be sort of strange since Ginko says "you really hit the jackpot this time," which implies that her previous state was less than desirable. Could there be a "good" and "bad" outcome to this scenario?

Correct, there some key events you have to do in order to obtain their ultimate persona, which also has some scenes attached to it.

Is this the ultimate persona scenario?
If so there is an implication that doing things right means that even though Eikichi accepts her no matter what, the audience is like "thank goodness she stayed thin!"

 

[cj_iwakura]

That would be sort of strange since Ginko says "you really hit the jackpot this time," which implies that her previous state was less than desirable. Could there be a "good" and "bad" outcome to this scenario?

Well, Ginko can be pretty shallow. There's a lot of nuances based on characters' feelings. You should probably experience it in context.
And I'm pretty sure Eikichi accepting her is the ideal outcome.

 

[Nottle]

Well, Ginko can be pretty shallow. There's a lot of nuances based on characters' feelings. You should probably experience it in context.

I definitely plan to at some point, I have the 2nd P2 game on psn classics, but want the psp 1st p2 to go on sale since obviously that one comes first.

 

[encephalon]

Playing the games in Japanese I always felt like that ambiguity seemed like a result of the localization to me. But I played the games years ago when I was younger and simply dumber so I might not be correct thinking the JP didn't carry that same ambiguity.
In the case that it was introduced through the localization I have to applaud them to make this choice, I think that's very cool and gives his story more layers.
Was hoping that localization could have done some magic for the P5 and toned down or even change the "predator" thing(give it a different context that would still make sense) but seems that's not the case. My single hope is AtlusUSA bringing it up to the team how stuff like that is viewed.

I've been wondering if this was the case.

 

[Tyaren]

Since Fang and Vanille are often mentioned as an example, how about these two?

They seem to have a very strong emotional bond/love with each other thoughout the game. In the game's official Japanese game guide the producer, Hideo Baba, states when asked about the relationship: "A standard m/f relationship would not work with Sorey and that Mikleo is his one and only".

 

[Setsu00]

People are rightfully shitting on P5 for those two guys, but the game also has Lala Escargot (who happens to be pretty much one of the most positively portrayed adult characters in the entire game) and gives you a chance to say that you prefer men during negotiation, which surprises, but doesn't disgust the Shadow.

 

[jay]

I don't consider myself qualified either. It would feel strange to me, as a straight man, to say of anything, "This is the best representation in [Persona/JRPGs/video games] of something I have no personal experience with." I would rather not speak for those people on their behalf; better to let them speak for themselves and elevate their voices.

Anyway, that's all I have to say about it.

How is this not like saying white people should be quiet about fighting racism because they lack authentic experiences of colored people?

 

[Silvard]

How is this not like saying white people should be quiet about fighting racism because they lack authentic experiences of colored people?

Because it's not saying that at all. There's a huge difference between a white person fighting racism and a white person proclaiming something to be the best representation of being a POC.

 

[jay]

Because it's not saying that at all. There's a huge difference between a white person fighting racism and a white person proclaiming something to be the best representation of being a POC.

I kind of get your point but it's all kind of a spectrum. A white person declaring something as a racist depiction would be considered fighting racism. But you're saying a white person should not applaud a progressive representation of race?

Edit: Or is the issue more of what you see as hyperbole? Would P2 is a good representation be a fine thread? It seems like people are using the potential hyperbole of the OP as reason to tell people they shouldn't talk about things they have not experienced, which is fucked up.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Because it's not saying that at all. There's a huge difference between a white person fighting racism and a white person proclaiming something to be the best representation of being a POC.

Given how awful nearly every JRPG is at representing it(if not every JRPG that isn't P2), I think it's clear how much P2 stands out in comparison. The best other examples so far have been subtext or stated outside of the game itself. I honestly can't think of another positive example that confronts it head on like P2.

 

[Garuroh]

I never finish P2 but I plan to do it later. For what I saw,the Jun stuff is the typical "character loves other character from the same sex soo much that gender does't matter" which is ehh... Why not just make a character that is sexually attracted to the opposite sex?

 

[Nottle]

I never finish P2 but I plan to do it later. For what I saw,the Jun stuff is the typical "character loves other character from the same sex soo much that gender does't matter" which is ehh... Why not just make a character that is sexually attracted to the opposite sex?

I mean, human sexuality is sort of complex. I bet people like that actually exist. I believe the word is demisexual.

 

[And_Gignac]

Ugh, I am thinking about not even buying Persona 5 at this point. Fuck Atlus.

 

[Dice//]

Since Fang and Vanille are often mentioned as an example, how about these two?

They seem to have a very strong emotional bond/love with each other thoughout the game. In the game's official Japanese game guide the producer, Hideo Baba, states when asked about the relationship: "A standard m/f relationship would not work with Sorey and that Mikleo is his one and only".

Spoiler

and great!

 

[TheNotoriousAFG]

Wow, that's a pretty tasteful example indeed - I never got past the first dungeon in Innocent Sin due to the gameplay feeling veeeeery outdated, but maybe I should rethink my position and power through. I also remember just loving the atmosphere and characters in general.

RE - Kanji, I think the story of questioning your sexuality due to your interests/crush was an engaging tale, even though he ended up not being gay in the end. I just wish the other characters like YOSUKE would have been more supportive and not treat it like it was disgusting :/

 

[Garuroh]

I mean, human sexuality is sort of complex. I bet people like that actually exist. I believe the word is demisexual.

Yeah but is annoying that homosexual relationships are vague and portrayed as "omg deep bond that tracends sex". Typical desexualization of gay relationships.

 

[beril]

I'm surprised people thought there was any ambiguity for Kanji. As far as I rememer the game makes it pretty clear that he's straight. It was a major copout and his whole arc just felt insultingly stupid as a result

 

[Thud]

I never finish P2 but I plan to do it later. For what I saw,the Jun stuff is the typical "character loves other character from the same sex soo much that gender does't matter" which is ehh... Why not just make a character that is sexually attracted to the opposite sex?

Jun only has eyes for Tatsuya. Whether he likes other guys or girls is not really the question.

The player can make Tatsuya respond to those feelings and it isn't out of line. They share a history together, which is reflected in these mementos.

 

[Sai-kun]

sorey and mikleo is just stupid teasing

i wouldn't count it as representation at all. it's all bullshit.

 

[anaron]

I'm surprised people thought there was any ambiguity for Kanji. As far as I rememer the game makes it pretty clear that he's straight. It was a major copout and his whole arc just felt insultingly stupid as a result

Yup. I always laugh when he's cited as an example.

 

[disappeared]

I never finish P2 but I plan to do it later. For what I saw,the Jun stuff is the typical "character loves other character from the same sex soo much that gender does't matter" which is ehh... Why not just make a character that is sexually attracted to the opposite sex?

Uhhh, what?

 

[Nottle]

Yeah but is annoying that homosexual relationships are vague and portrayed as "omg deep bond that tracends sex". Typical desexualization of gay relationships.

I mean that is a whole lot more mature way of looking at relationships and sexuality compared to characters who just want to score or gay guys that want to molest high school boys.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

There's Tony from Earthbound, and he has something for Jeff... but he's like 12 and it doesn't seem Jeff shares the same feelings for him.

 

[Kangi]

There's Tony from Earthbound, and he has something for Jeff... but he's like 12 and it doesn't seem Jeff shares the same feelings for him.

Tony's a pretty great representation of that confusing period of queer life where you're coming into your sexuality and feeling alone in it. His longing for Jeff after he up and leaves, his desperation to stay a part of his life, and his self-doubt about whether Jeff wants anything to do with him anymore are all part of a well-portrayed unrequited love (in which he's also scared to call it love). And it also depresses me to watch.

Spoiler

"Yours truly,
Tony

P.S. Don't show this letter to anyone!"

 

[OrionX]

I'm surprised people thought there was any ambiguity for Kanji. As far as I rememer the game makes it pretty clear that he's straight. It was a major copout and his whole arc just felt insultingly stupid as a result

I just don't feel like a few awkward, blushing scenes with Naoto and the girls is definitive enough. I know he says things like "it ain't like that!" whenever Yosuke gets all "no homo," but I always thought that could be interpreted as "I ain't some predator who's gonna force himself on you!" And his "make me a man" comment to me just suggests that he still has some doubts and insecurities he hasn't worked through.

I feel like some people get kinda condescending at the suggestion Kanji might be anything other than completely straight, like you're dumb and don't understand the point of his story if you think otherwise. I mean, I've played the game at least 5 times between P4 and Golden, and it was never all that clear to me. It always seemed to me like he was still figuring things out. Idk, maybe I'm stretching things a bit to suit the narrative I prefer, but I always thought it was intentionally ambiguous.

Also, I know stuff like this can just be labeled as teasing and bait, but I'm gonna add it anyway:

 

[Weiss]

I mean Kanji's Rank 10 is him admitting his Shadow is real, and then his Persona transforms into a hulking dude on fire named after Oda Nobunaga.

 

[HK-47]

Have you played Inquisition? I found both Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition great for this. In DA2 Anders will flirt with your male Hawke regardless of whether or not he is straight, it was really refreshing. And obviously Inquisition has Dorian, who is one of the more interesting companions.

Also the I found the m/m Kaidan scenes in Mass Effect 3 super cute. It's weird, because that game has this weird celibacy thing where nobody will even so much as kiss until they're all about to die, but I really like the dialogue in their relationship.

Anders isn't a good representation of anything other than character assassination and shoddy storytelling

 

[Silvard]

I kind of get your point but it's all kind of a spectrum. A white person declaring something as a racist depiction would be considered fighting racism. But you're saying a white person should not applaud a progressive representation of race?

Edit: Or is the issue more of what you see as hyperbole? Would P2 is a good representation be a fine thread? It seems like people are using the potential hyperbole of the OP as reason to tell people they shouldn't talk about things they have not experienced, which is fucked up.

Given how awful nearly every JRPG is at representing it(if not every JRPG that isn't P2), I think it's clear how much P2 stands out in comparison. The best other examples so far have been subtext or stated outside of the game itself. I honestly can't think of another positive example that confronts it head on like P2.

I'm not arguing whether P2 is the best representation of homosexuality in JRPGs or not. JRPGs are usually garbage tier when it comes to these subjects so I wouldn't be surprised, but I haven't played P2 or all JRPGs which attempt to tackle homosexuality.

I'm just saying that NichM isn't saying that cis people shouldn't talk about or discuss representations of homosexuality, just that they should be very careful with making qualitative judgements (especially as definitive as "best" or "most progressive") on representations of things they cannot possibly have experienced, despite how positive or accurate you may believe the portrayal to be.

 

[Ludger Kresnik]

sorey and mikleo is just stupid teasing

i wouldn't count it as representation at all. it's all bullshit.

That's what I got from them, too. I went into ToZ totally ready to buy into their romance, but they just gave me nothing to work with. Not one ounce of chemistry.

 

[CazTGG]

So what happened to the writer(s) behind P2? Did they move on to a different game or quit altogether?

He left ATLUS some time ago. I believe his most recent work was on The Caligula Effect.

And it also really handled body positivity really well, with Eikichi being in love with a big girl whose weight was not used for jokes a la Hanako.

Eh...in Innocent Sin, they made fun of her at the beginning by gawking at her eating a lot and undermined the point they were making when she

Spoiler

wished to have her more slender physique to be attractive to Eikichi

.

 

[meltingparappa]

I'm just saying that NichM isn't saying that cis people shouldn't talk about or discuss representations of homosexuality, just that they should be very careful with making qualitative judgements (especially as definitive as "best" or "most progressive") on representations of things they cannot possibly have experienced, despite how positive or accurate you may believe the portrayal to be.

I think this is such an extremely reasonable statement that isn't filled with absolutes or hard rules saying "don't do this", just to be mindful, and I'm surprised at the amount of pushback.

If someone who was Caucasian, born in and never left the midwest made a thread saying "Years later, Watchdogs 2 remains the best experience of being black in a mostly white city", it's not as if the statement is necessarily unilaterally "wrong" or wouldn't have people in agreement, it's just a rather bold statement to make on behalf of another group.

 

[Taruranto]

Eh...in Innocent Sin, they made fun of her at the beginning by gawking at her eating a lot and undermined the point they were making when she

Spoiler

wished to have her more slender physique to be attractive to Eikichi

.

Eikichi loved her anyway, he didn't care that she changed. I don't remember how mean he was to her in the beginning but I don't see the problem, that's before he goes through character development.

I don't think there is nothing wrong with un-pc jokes or characters being mean per se, I mean, P2 has some demons getting upset at the Jun/Tatsuya contact option or the whole Kasugayama thing, but I would never call it an homophobic game because it doesn't feel like the writers were actively trying to be mean or just using these elements entirely as a joke. It was also a '99 Japanese game, a lot of these elements were pretty ballsy.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Anders isn't a good representation of anything other than character assassination and shoddy storytelling

Anders is my DA2 fave, sorry bout it