F0rneus
Tears in the rain
If there is a way I've never found it.
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18 years later, and Persona 2 remains the most progressive JRPG about homosexuality.
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
If there is a way I've never found it.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
There's no explicit romance with either of them, just subtext. In Aigis's case it's more that her SL just wasn't changed much.
NHarmonic.
Member
which character? i don't remember this.
Also, yeah. FF13 had Fang and Vanille (they also get the most romantic ending in the game, don't mind 13-2 or LR), and it was better than this tbh.
Either way i seriously don't trust japanese devs/game writers giving respect and thought to LGBTQ+ characters any time soon. I'd love to see it, but they can't handle them, they really can't write those characters.
I think they're referring to Fassad.
Japanese writers have it in them, but prolific game writers that are prominent? Not really.
Only YT even cares to write homosexuals in his games, and only as a natural byproduct of them existing on earth and thus needing to be represented, or so his explanation was.
You have it backwards. Aigis SL was different for FeMC. Her rank 10 is her wishing she was an ideal partner for you. Elizabeth's is just unchanged completely from what I remember
That's not exclusive to same-sex couples. It's a staple of anime where it's left ambiguous. Think of all of the straight harem anime shows where the main character never actually picks a girl.
Neat, thanks for the link. And it may just me having, um, personal preferences but I hope one of them is Kogi. [/sorrynotsorry]
encephalon
Member
Unfortunately, Kanji isn't really positive representation. The moral of the story is "just because you like things that break gender norms doesn't mean you're gay." It's been a while since I've played (the JP ver of) the game, but I was left the impression that the game paired Kanji conquering his demons with "whew, thank god he's not gay."
I don't see why it matters whether or not the OP is gay or why talking about the nature ("authenticity") representation in the industry isn't worth talking about.
(I'm gay).
Look! The Pie!
Member
I'm so pissed Persona seems to have once again dropped the ball with regards to LGBT representation. Kanji's arc started off promising and ended up being a half-hearted copout, with a liberal sprinkling of Yosuke homophobia. I hoped they would have at least included a gay confidant/romance option among the glut of waifus in P5, but nope. Then there was all that weirdness with Sojiro being all "I don't usually allow dudes in my passenger seat, oh, and I don't put guys' numbers in my phone either" within minutes of meeting the protagonist. Not to mention Ryuji's obnoxious "HEY YOU'D BETTER NOT LOOK AT MY ASS" comments when crawling through the air vent. Atlus pls.
There was also Caina, the Cocytus member in love with his leader Vinsfeld. He was male in the Japanese version, but was changed to female for the Western release, because reasons.
There was also Caina, the Cocytus member in love with his leader Vinsfeld. He was male in the Japanese version, but was changed to female for the Western release, because reasons.
I get what you're saying, but I have no issues with the thread. Any positive talk about gay people lately is nice to see.
Gay guy here.
This is not confirming if Kogi is in the game or not, but he was inspired in party by my super bara-tacular personal trainer.
So... take from what what you will.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
Whoa, I backed this game without knowing this. That response about about the team's commitment to a diversity of perspectives is great. Awesome awesome awesome. I'm really looking forward to this. Best of luck with finishing development!
I'm sure a lot of people will assume we planned it from the start, but it just... kinda happened?
We were making the characters in real-time during the campaign, and people were just making characters that seemed interesting to them.
I guess we have a reasonably diverse staff, so maybe it's not a surprise this is the cast we got. But still happy with the outcome.
I never really thought of it like that...i figured Kanji's whole thing was that men should be able to break societal norms of preset gender stereotypes and not be judged as inferior or strange based on wanting to act out and be themselves, but i can see how one would come to your conclusion as well now that i think about it.
With Naoto as well, the fact that she was a female in a male dominated field and had to harden herself and be gender neutral to be taken seriously was another one, and i didn't even really think of the viewpoint from a trans person's point of view about how it may look like gender waffling.
Emil, from Nier.
Where is it mentioned that Emil is gay, or is it implied? I didn't really remember that from my playthrough.
I mean, isn't that a positive message as well, to not let gender norms dictate how you live your life? If anything, the message is more powerful because Kanji is straight, because it shows other straight guys that liking feminine things is ok.
metalslimer
Member
Right as someone who was struggling to come out at the time of persona 4s release I initially thought of Kanji as a good representation for someone who is questioning their sexualittle. But instead of the game telling you it's ok to question your sexuality or not be binary it takes the route of completely ignoring that and basically saying it's ok to lIke female associated things as long as you are straight. But it wasn't until after a few years of growing up that I realized that Kanji wasn't supposed to be inclusive at all especially since Yosuke is such a piece of shit to him
Its a positive message overall but it was not handled particularly well as they went out of their way to make sure you knew that Kanji was straight and definitely not one of those weirdo gay people. And this plays into the problem Persona faces in that there are a lot good of messages that are constantly belittled by their own characters at points
I didn't mind Kanji at all in P4, and honestly, I didn't think he was the big problem with the game; it's Yosuke. Seriously. He's the one who's constantly making homophobic comments around Kanji, the source of all the "Oh no! Kanji might like guys, and that's creepy!" jokes that the game spews out. I loved P4, but those seriously dragged down the game for me. I can't emphasize enough what a garbage character Yosuke is.
When they go to Facade for the wedding, it's heavily implied in Replicant and toned down in Gestalt cause of the much bigger age gap.
Taro made it supremely clear in the Grimoire though, and shut down any other interpretation, he's just gay
NHarmonic.
Member
Oh i really don't remember that being his character arc but hey, i played it like 4 years ago. Don't remember a lot of details about it.
Hmm.
While I certainly get what you're talking about, I still felt Kanji was gay and just struggling and confused.
He is in HS, after all, and I would imagine that coming out in HS isn't a thing in Japan like it is here now. And it certainly wasn't a thing when I was in HS, so I can relate to it.
Naoto certainly added to that confusion, and yeah, kind of gave him an out.
But given that shadows are canonically their true selves and his was pretty unequivocally gay, I think that's actually probably the most accurate interpretation and everything else is about teenaged confusion and identity.
So, if anything, I feel like his "feminine" hobbies might be the worst part of his representation. Because Japan can't seem to imagine a normal guy who likes traditionally "masculine" things could also be gay.
This is also informed by my own experiences in Japan, too.
Just in every instance where I felt safe coming out to someone Japanese they've always been shocked, because I don't fit the stereotype their media has been feeding them their entire life.
encephalon
Member
It's a positive message, but not in terms of being gay. Maybe it seems like a powerful message to you, but Japan is a society where gay men start families with women and fool around on the side.
cj_iwakura
Member
Personally, I always thought of Kanji as straight but effeminate. He has feminine interests which makes him feel conflicted, but he's clearly into Naoto later on.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I don't think that Kanji can be seen as gay, when he was still pinning for Naoto even when he knew she was female. He's very bi, but not gay. He's a tough guy who likes girly things and is certainly attracted to men. But he's also attracted to tomboy girls.
To be fair to Japan, its no different from christian fundamentalist America in that sense, but it does show how repressive society can be to sexual desires in general.
I had a GF in college and have been attracted to the occasional women since, but I still identify as gay. And I would say that all were tomboys.
Just because there might be a woman out there for me doesn't mean that I'm bi. I think it means there are exceptions. And when I came out, I stopped looking for them.
Kinsey scale goes from 0 to 6, after all, meaning there are plenty of gradations and exceptions in there. So I'd probably put myself in the 4 to 5 range.
Um.... what? IS is ridiculously easy except for the final boss (which they nerfed in the PSP version). EP does ramp it up, but it does get easier later on.
Never encountered this before in my entire life and i can't wrap my head around it since you said it.
I always thought one is either attracted to one gender, or both.
I've never ever heard of "some days i like date women and am attracted to women but i'm still gay" Categorically it confuses me, no offense i mean.
But i guess human sexuality in general is not so easily defined.
encephalon
Member
The Kinsey Scale, while useful, seems like it's seen as increasingly inadequate to define human sexuality.
Sexuality is a complex and three dimensional thing.
And no offense taken!
Kanji's experiences actually line up pretty well with my own, so of course I'm going to bring that into my interpretation.
A lot of of this is generational, too. I'm pushing 40 now and you didn't come out in HS then, and Japan is at least 20 years behind on that front.
So I can't dismiss him out of hand like a lot of people seem to want to.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I can't pretend I understand the situation of a gay man in college. But to me Kanji's situation seemed a lot more muddled than what you present here. I mean he's in mad love with Naoto, when he thinks Naoto is male. And when he learns she's female he's still madly in love. It goes beyond a mere possible fling or just one crush amongst a sea of crushes. Boy is obsessed. I think it goes further than mere attractiveness.
As far as I can tell, Kanji is a 3 on the Kinsey scale. The ultimate bisexual. But then again I know nothing about that. So I can't really argue with you. I do hope he's a positive representation none the less. I goddamn love Kanji. Always part of my final party.
Sexuality is a spectrum. It's incredibly varied, and can't really be accurately defined in a strict binary system. Especially since that sort of system ignores nonbinary/gender nonconforming people entirely.
The n00b Avenger
Member
If anything non-okama gay stereotypes tend to be super-masculine in Japan. Having them as buff body-builder types is pretty typical.
cj_iwakura
Member
We're gonna have to disagree here. I love EP, but it's tough all the way through. It gets even harder later on.
IS is very easy, though. Just tedious.
encephalon
Member
Persona 4 is operating under cartoon logic. You aren't meant to think that Kanji is bordering on gay because he was attracted to Naoto when he thought she was a boy. If Naoto is a girl, then Kanji is straight.
F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I've seen that boy's Palace (were they Palaces in P4? Can't remember). He sure isn't 100% straight.
I loved my college girlfriend, and very much wanted to sleep with her, and was actively dreaming about it.
Unfortunately, she was "saving herself," so I didn't get to. I'm a Gold Star Gay, just not by choice.
And I don't think "the ultimate bisexual" would have a gay bathhouse fantasy world with a shadow flanked by musclebound statues that hit you with male symbols. But maybe I'm expecting a more nuanced representation than Japan can deliver.
NickWright
Member
Weren't the dungeons in P4 how they were perceived by other people? That's why they were over the top as it was a TV show for the viewers of the Midnight Channel.
Whereas P5's Palaces are the characters' vision of others.
I thought the TV World dungeons, as well as the shadow characters, were parts of themselves that they were ashamed of.
Ludger Kresnik
Member
Ah, right. It's been a while.
encephalon
Member
That's a representation of his worry that he's gay.
cj_iwakura
Member
Also, I didn't really mean to make the OP so absolute in wording, but I really can't think of one that handles it more tastefully. (And 'one of the most' wouldn't fit. )
)infinit777
Member
But what about enchanted arms?
Ike/Soren as well, and Heather. Really feels like IS would like to do more but are hamstrung because Nintendo.
I would like to see Raven/Lucius be made clearer in the inevitable FE7 remake.
cj_iwakura
Member
If I had to pick another serious one that handles it tactfully, I recall Growlanser doesn't make a big deal out of it. I think it's a thing, anyway. Urushihara is known for being equal opportunity with fan service.
Zap Rowsdower
Banned
The Shadow Hearts series is kind of weird about it.
There are several gay characters but they were prone to being the butt of "Ewww dat's gay" jokes. The acupuncturist in 1 was bad because they played him up as being rather predatory for cheap laughs, even having him creep on the underage Halley, but some of the other gay characters like Joachim and The Magimel Brothers are shown as nothing but good people. The shopkeep Magimel Brother even has a boyfriend in 3 and their relationship is like one of the very few in the series that's healthy and doesn't end in tragedy.
There are several gay characters but they were prone to being the butt of "Ewww dat's gay" jokes. The acupuncturist in 1 was bad because they played him up as being rather predatory for cheap laughs, even having him creep on the underage Halley, but some of the other gay characters like Joachim and The Magimel Brothers are shown as nothing but good people. The shopkeep Magimel Brother even has a boyfriend in 3 and their relationship is like one of the very few in the series that's healthy and doesn't end in tragedy.
TriAceJP
Member
They could look back at a lot, saying how the two Persona 2 games were the best in the series
I haven't booted up 5 yet though
cj_iwakura
Member
They could look back at a lot, saying how the two Persona 2 games were the best in the series
I haven't booted up 5 yet though
I'm only about 30 hours into P5, but from what I've played so far, P2 has nothing to worry about.
kunonabi
Member
not even close, EP is leagues ahead of every other Persona game just about every other jrpg for that matter. how is jun the canon choice with how EP plays out?
cj_iwakura
Member
Tatsuya is extremely protective of Jun in EP.
More fuel to the fire.
Let the record show I'm on Team Maya, but I respect his devotion.