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[Dangansona]

P2 desperately needs an actual update. ISP is so frustrating to play, I could not stand it for more than maybe 30 minutes at a time.

Yeah for sure. I'm going to give it another shot soon on Easy but I was not digging it last time, largely thanks to the encounter rate.

 

[cj_iwakura]

Yeah for sure. I'm going to give it another shot soon on Easy but I was not digging it last time, largely thanks to the encounter rate.

The best way around that is by using a contact guide, find whatever contact ends a battle fast and spam it, you'll get through most fights in seconds.

 

[bishopcruz]

Not only does P2 handle gay characterization better than the modern games. It handles characterization in general better than the modern games. What I adored about P2 is the characters had a ton of depth and weren't stuck in the whole "I'm a good misunderstood student" or "I'm the perfect student!" roles that we can't break out of. In IS, we had an ACTUAL delinquent, a girl dealing with her inability to fit in in pretty awful ways (enjo kosai and drug abuse), the MC was a habitual class skipper, and bad boy. And that's not even getting in to how messed up Jun was.

While I love the modern games for their charm and all, the protagonists and the party are all so squeaky clean it hurts. I just don't expect much nuanced representation of queer identities in them, because they are still married, and with good financial reason apparently, to a relatively squeaky clean anime image. Not that P1 and P2 didn't have anime influences, they clearly did, but the games were darker, with a tinge of psychological horror. P5 ending spoilers:

Spoiler

P5 gets this a bit at the end. The scenes where your party disappears and hell is literally entering earth while the sky rains blood felt like old school Persona.

 

[Aarglefarg]

I know there isn't bad intent and I'm not making a big deal of it but calling a Kinsey 3 an "ultimate bisexual" diminishes the biness of a lot of bis, and I know the term is out there but "gold star gay" has similar problems.

I can't pretend I understand the situation of a gay man in college. But to me Kanji's situation seemed a lot more muddled than what you present here. I mean he's in mad love with Naoto, when he thinks Naoto is male. And when he learns she's female he's still madly in love. It goes beyond a mere possible fling or just one crush amongst a sea of crushes. Boy is obsessed. I think it goes further than mere attractiveness.

As far as I can tell, Kanji is a 3 on the Kinsey scale. The ultimate bisexual. But then again I know nothing about that. So I can't really argue with you. I do hope he's a positive representation none the less. I goddamn love Kanji. Always part of my final party.

This is what I originally thought but Kanji saying he is straight makes me believe him. The homophobia he faced for not being believed helps me take that side.

I loved my college girlfriend, and very much wanted to sleep with her, and was actively dreaming about it.

Unfortunately, she was "saving herself," so I didn't get to. I'm a Gold Star Gay, just not by choice.

And I don't think "the ultimate bisexual" would have a gay bathhouse fantasy world with a shadow flanked by musclebound statues that hit you with male symbols. But maybe I'm expecting a more nuanced representation than Japan can deliver.

The bathhouse is about his fears about himself. It didn't confirm he is gay, it confirms that he has fears about his sexuality.

Persona 4 is operating under cartoon logic. You aren't meant to think that Kanji is bordering on gay because he was attracted to Naoto when he thought she was a boy. If Naoto is a girl, then Kanji is straight.

Unfortunately that seems right.

 

[Opa-Pa]

My only gripe with the whole Jun thing is that while it is possible to return his feelings, the duology revolves around Tatsuya and Maya and their tragic love a lot, like, it's probably the focal point of EP, which kind of undermines the whole thing.

That being said Jun remains a positive portrayal of a gay boy either way without anyone pointing it out as something negative or funny, which is more than what modern Persona can say.

Atlus, you used to be so good with this stuff...

 

[Shizuka]

As a gay man, I don't think I've ever played or even seen a game that makes a satisfying representation of a gay character. It's great that there have been some representarion over the years, but there was never one where I could use as a good example so far. You know, outside of games clearly developed and catering to the gay audience.

 

[metalslimer]

As a gay man, I don't think I've ever played or even seen a game that makes a satisfying representation of a gay character. It's great that there have been some representarion over the years, but there was never one where I could use as a good example so far. You know, outside of games clearly developed and catering to the gay audience.

Dorian in Dragon Age Inquisition was good imo at least for a big budget game

 

[ShironRedshift]

Hmm.

While I certainly get what you're talking about, I still felt Kanji was gay and just struggling and confused.

He is in HS, after all, and I would imagine that coming out in HS isn't a thing in Japan like it is here now. And it certainly wasn't a thing when I was in HS, so I can relate to it.

Naoto certainly added to that confusion, and yeah, kind of gave him an out.

But given that shadows are canonically their true selves and his was pretty unequivocally gay, I think that's actually probably the most accurate interpretation and everything else is about teenaged confusion and identity.

So, if anything, I feel like his "feminine" hobbies might be the worst part of his representation. Because Japan can't seem to imagine a normal guy who likes traditionally "masculine" things could also be gay.

This is also informed by my own experiences in Japan, too.

Just in every instance where I felt safe coming out to someone Japanese they've always been shocked, because I don't fit the stereotype their media has been feeding them their entire life.

So fo you believe that Rise wants to be a stripper? That that is her true self? You have to under that logic. You have to also believe that Chie's true self is being a bully, Teddie's is being a nihilist, etc. It doesn't hold up.

Contrary to what the Shadows yell at the protagonists, they are NOT the true selves. They represent a person's innermost fears, which they refuse to admit to themselves, but are not the true selves themselves. Those are their Personas, which they obtain after they no longer run from their fears but admit to them and face them head-on. That is also why, when they not only stop denying and admit to those fears, but begin to successfully conquer them even more so through social links, their Personas evolves.

Their Shadows are just the fears they refuse to admit to themselves. Once they admit to them, the Shadow selves disappear and they awaken their Personas, which are the representations of their true selves, not their Shadows. That just doesn't hold up at all no matter what bullshit the Shadows try to feed them.

EDIT: And Kanji being gay just never made much sense to me and kind of undermines his entire social link. The whole point, as you find out, is Kanji misunderstanding his father's dying words about him being a real man. That's why he dyes his hair blonde, focuses on physical strength and hates people who pick on children and the weak and use physical force to fight them back, in addition to being ashamed of his more feminine hobbies and interests like sewing. Because as a stupid teenager, he thinks that type of thing is what it means to be a real man. Y'know, basically toxic ideas of masculinity, which he then learns to overcome and realized what his dad really meant as his social link progresses.

Kanji struggling with stuff like his interests in feminine hobbies and whether that makes him gay or less of a man or whatever all has to do with his struggle against toxic ideas of masculinity and what it really means to be a man, not be hints that he's gay. That's just missing the point of what's going on at all and would, ugh, at least in part validate Yosuke's bullying of him to an extent ("aha, I knew all that stuff meant you were gay! Get away from me you freak!").

Of course, to be clear, Yosuke's an absolutely terrible jerkward regardless and there:s absolutely nothing wrong with having both feline interests AND being gay or being a flamboyant stereotype. That's perfectly valid and there's nothing wrong with that, and fuck anyone who says otherwise (and to be clear with where I stand on this not only feminine but also flamboyant gays definitely deserve representation as well, since there are real people like that. They shouldn't be the only representation, but as long as that's kept in mind, there's nothing inherently wrong with such depictions in media). But that just doesn't seem to have anything to do with Kanji's character arc, which has to deal with toxic ideas of masculinity and him being gay kind of distracts from that in my opinion and moves aeay from why he's so bothered by people finding out about his hobbies and being confused as to how to deal with that. It all has to deal with him dealing with his father's last words and figuring them out, and not whether he's gay or not, and such a topic is definitely worthy of consideration all by itself especially since do many problems can stem from ideas from those just as they do for Kanji. Everything stems from there.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

As a gay man, I don't think I've ever played or even seen a game that makes a satisfying representation of a gay character. It's great that there have been some representarion over the years, but there was never one where I could use as a good example so far. You know, outside of games clearly developed and catering to the gay audience.

Have you played Inquisition? I found both Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition great for this. In DA2 Anders will flirt with your male Hawke regardless of whether or not he is straight, it was really refreshing. And obviously Inquisition has Dorian, who is one of the more interesting companions.

Also the I found the m/m Kaidan scenes in Mass Effect 3 super cute. It's weird, because that game has this weird celibacy thing where nobody will even so much as kiss until they're all about to die, but I really like the dialogue in their relationship.

 

[Antiwhippy]

As a gay man, I don't think I've ever played or even seen a game that makes a satisfying representation of a gay character. It's great that there have been some representarion over the years, but there was never one where I could use as a good example so far. You know, outside of games clearly developed and catering to the gay audience.

Play night in the woods.

Best gay couple, EVER.

 

[Shizuka]

Dorian in Dragon Age Inquisition was good imo at least for a big budget game

Have you played Inquisition? I found both Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition great for this. In DA2 Anders will flirt with your male Hawke regardless of whether or not he is straight, it was really refreshing. And obviously Inquisition has Dorian, who is one of the more interesting companions.

Also the I found the m/m Kaidan scenes in Mass Effect 3 super cute. It's weird, because that game has this weird celibacy thing where nobody will even so much as kiss until they're all about to die, but I really like the dialogue in their relationship.

I guess I should try Inquisition someday, thank you for your suggestions.

Play night in the woods.

Best gay couple, EVER.

What, really? I almost got it at launch, but ended up waiting. Can you elaborate?

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

So fo you believe that Rise wants to be a stripper? That that is her true self? You have to under that logic. You have to also believe that Chie's true self is being a bully, Teddie's is being a nihilist, etc. It doesn't hold up.

Contrary to what the Shadows yell at the protagonists, they are NOT the true selves. They represent a person's innermost fears, which they refuse to admit to themselves, but are not the true selves themselves. Those are their Personas, which they obtain after they no longer run from their fears but admit to them and face them head-on. That is also why, when they not only stop denying and admit to those fears, but begin to successfully conquer them even more so through social links, their Personas evolves.

Their Shadows are just the fears they refuse to admit to themselves. Once they admit to them, the Shadow selves disappear and they awaken their Personas, which are the representations of their true selves, not their Shadows. That just doesn't hold up at all no matter what bullshit the Shadows try to feed them.

They make it explicitly clear that the Shadows were a part of them, of their mindset that shows some of their true form. It's not just a fear, but one part of their personality that they are afraid of admitting to others. I'm pretty sure several of the S-Links say something to the effect of: "I know that the Shadow was a part of me, a side I didn't want to admit, but even with that..." It's said in the English translation that it is the part of them that they do not want to show.

 

[EVA UNIT 01]

Best portrayal and also remains best persona games.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I guess I should try Inquisition someday, thank you for your suggestions.



What, really? I almost got it at launch, but ended up waiting. Can you elaborate?

Best depiction of a couple that is explicitly gay but written as actual normal people (well one anyway, the other is hyper as hell, but not in a "look at me I'm GAY" way)

Both characters are super lovable.

Relationship deals with them living as a gay couple in a deadend midwest town but isn't super dramatic about it.

It's just... really good.

 

[Kangi]

What, really? I almost got it at launch, but ended up waiting. Can you elaborate?

Two of the main characters, both male, are in a relationship. It gets a ton of attention, depth, and screen time dedicated to it. Easily the most fleshed-out gay relationship, and pair of gay characters, I've seen in a game. The playable main character is also queer.

Wish there were (J)RPG examples like them. Or any video game examples like them, really.

 

[pirata]

As a gay Persona fan, the shitty stereotype stuff has been disheartening, but not super surprising, given Japan's piss-poor LGBTQ exposure. The developers have probably never met a (non-closeted) gay person in their life, and nothing non-Japanese fans say about it will probably ever reach them. It's a shame.


I thought the Tatsuya/Jun thing worked really well in Innocent Sin, which is surprising, given it's a game that came out in 1999. A lot of straight people like to forget that the Western media landscape was probably even more toxic towards gay people until very recently, which made it a standout anywhere in the world. Hell, video games rarely if ever portray gay characters at all, and usually not very compellingly.

I've kind of lost track of where I was going, but basically, it's usually a bummer when non-straight peeps show up in Japanese media in general, because it's going to be a dumb joke made with no actual knowledge of what gay people are, something that's played off as "oh look, a homosexual, how exotic!", "sexy" "lesbian" shit for dumb straight boys, or "ewww, gays! Get them away! They're unnatural and may even rape me or something!". At least you could tell off Yosuke for that bullshit. Man, I wish they would have kept in the deleted dialogue. It makes some of his attitudes make a lot more sense (take it from me, as someone who used to live in a lot of denial)

 

[metalslimer]

Wow that yosuke dialogue would have completely changed his character. I wish they had gone with it.

 

[Two Words]

Personally, I think they did pretty well with Kanji when I got through his dungeon and his first month or so of joining the party.

... And then they continue to not only make it a massive joke through Yosuke's teasing not too long afterwards (which came off as extensively mean even when I first played it), but also gave a cop-out in

Spoiler

Naoto being obviously female, so Kanji doesn't have to question the attraction anymore really.

But

Spoiler

Kanji isn't gay. He has hobbies that he thinks people will question his manliness, and he feels the need to put on a front to avoid that perception.

 

[cj_iwakura]

My only gripe with the whole Jun thing is that while it is possible to return his feelings, the duology revolves around Tatsuya and Maya and their tragic love a lot, like, it's probably the focal point of EP, which kind of undermines the whole thing.

Despite being a TxM advocate, I think you can still sell it even if he's into Jun. He feels responsible for her after what happened in the past, so he's taken it upon himself to stop it from happening again. It doesn't mean he's in love with her, just that he wants to keep his big sis safe.

 

[Opa-Pa]

Two of the main characters, both male, are in a relationship. It gets a ton of attention, depth, and screen time dedicated to it. Easily the most fleshed-out gay relationship, and pair of gay characters, I've seen in a game. The playable main character is also queer.

Wish there were (J)RPG examples like them. Or any video game examples like them, really.

Mae is queer? Wow this is news to me, what line of dialogue? That'd be awesome if true because I totally missed it.

Man, I wish they would have kept in the deleted dialogue. It makes some of his attitudes make a lot more sense (take it from me, as someone who used to live in a lot of denial)

That would have been so great, it'd retroactively make Yosuke a pretty amazing character, I mean him giving Kanji shit would be just his anxiety over the possibility of him being gay himself showing and all his unnecessary pervy crap would be just his desperation to prove to the world that he's straight.

What puzzles me is that Atlus USA dubbed it anyway, what was the point? Were they recording without checking if it was actually used in the game?

 

[Kangi]

Mae is queer? Wow this is news to me, what line of dialogue? That'd be awesome if true because I totally missed it.

Lots of lines of dialogue, though the bulk are from spending time with Bea. She expresses interest in a girl at a party, relates a horror story of trying to flirt with a girl in college, all sorts of stuff. It comes up in one of the Gregg scenes, too. She's confirmed to be pansexual, just doesn't directly state that in-game.

 

[LinkAndEpona]

I've had this on PSO for a few years now and haven't played it yet, I think I will now to catch this story line.

 

[A.J.]

So what happened to the writer(s) behind P2? Did they move on to a different game or quit altogether?

 

[cj_iwakura]

Incidentally, the bartender at the Pleiades Hotel gives me similar vibes.

She's very friendly towards Maya, though I could be reading too much into it.

 

[cj_iwakura]

So what happened to the writer(s) behind P2? Did they move on to a different game or quit altogether?

He left Atlus over a debacle involving Tamaki being in a relationship with Tadashi, a character effectively named after him. Supposedly fans thought he was self-inserting and got irritated. Seriously.

He's been freelancing since then. I'd love how know how 3/4/5 have turned out through Satomi Tadashi's lens.

His last game was Caligula, and I believe he was also involved in Digital Devil Saga's concept.(Inasmuch as adapting it from the novel, anyway)

 

[pirata]

What puzzles me is that Atlus USA dubbed it anyway, what was the point? Were they recording without checking if it was actually used in the game?

There's even more stuff cut from the game but remaining on the disk that got translated. They probably received a dump of recordings and text from the Japanese version and made content that would fit in the same place in the program. And it's voiced in Japanese, too. It must have gotten pretty far into development, and they either decided to remove it or didn't finish it in time.

 

[The Wart]

I generally encourage LGBT, and female representation in all forms of media, but are you implying devs have an obligation to put in things in their game purely for representation's sake and not because they feel they would be a good fit for their game at large? Especially if they don't have the mind to put the effort or research into the decision to make it non offensive and as authentic as possible.

I don't know if I'd say any dev is obligated to do anything! My point was just that there's no way for devs to "opt out" of representational issues. An all-straight dev team that doesn't have gay characters in their game because it just didn't occur to them to include any is still making a choice and taking a position, at least implicitly. So it would be better if devs gave serious thought to what kinds of characters they create, and why.

 

[The Wart]

Nor am I saying straight people don't get to have opinions about LGBTQ content in games, because I definitely have opinions there too.

You literally asked this dude about his qualifications and implied he should provide the equivalent of a master's thesis before posting on a public internet message board! I have a hard time seeing how that's not asking for no discussion unless you are "qualified".

I mean, I guess you can ding the OP for an overly-definitive topic heading but by the standard of internet forum rhetoric it's all pretty measured. I don't think anyone interpreted it as an Ultimate Truth Claim.

But I do try to make sure those opinions are informed by people with lived experience when it comes to the subject matter, as opposed to the ambient received wisdom on these matters from society at large. Maybe Jun is the best, but if he is, I'm more interested in that argument made from a place of knowledge as opposed to cultural assumptions.

I guess I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. Is it that the OP is "ambient received wisdom on these matters from society at large"? That seems uncharitably dismissive. It's a specific claim by a specific person about what is positive about P2's LGBTQ content, and that it is lacking in other games. I'm not sure what the cultural assumptions are, or what is "ambient", "received", or "at large" about it!

 

[NichM]

I guess I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here.

I'll take it to PM for clarification, but really most of what I want to say is a pale echo of this essay.

 

[Rozart]

Man, I wish they would have kept in the deleted dialogue. It makes some of his attitudes make a lot more sense (take it from me, as someone who used to live in a lot of denial)

I really, really wished they kept that in. Yosuke + internalized homophobia would have made so much sense.

 

[OrionX]

I just wanted to say a lil' something about Kanji.

The thing is, Kanji's internal struggle perfectly mirrors the internal struggle of being gay. The fear of not being masculine enough, about being judged by society and your peers, feeling the need to overcompensate and change the way you act around people... As a gay teen, I related to Kanji more than I ever had to a video game character. When you throw in his shadow yelling about being attracted to men and craving acceptance from people, it echoed similar tortured thoughts I had, so it felt like he was going through the same stuff I was at the time.

I saw shadows as true feelings and desires enhanced to the extreme after being suppressed for so long. To say "I accept you, you're a part of me, except for all that gay shit, you were just confused cuz you like cute girly stuff," doesn't sit right with me. I know there are signs he's attracted to Naoto, but I don't feel like that proves he's 100% straight.

I probably sound way too invested in the sexuality of a fictional video game character, but it just makes me sad when people try to shove Shadow Kanji back in the closet lol, like the idea that he might be gay was nothing more than a sick distortion Kanji needed to free himself from.

 

[chrominance]

Maybe the OP title is too definitive, yes. There are also one or two instances where someone has said in this thread, "as a queer person, this was my take on something" only to have someone else go "well actually."

But by and large, I think people in this thread would actually be pretty receptive to someone coming in and saying, well, I'm queer, and I disagree with the original argument. The person talking about how they saw much of themselves in Kanji, despite what later happens to the character, is valuable insight. There were a bunch of articles a few months/years after the release of Persona 4 that really grappled with the question of whether Kanji and Naoto's characterizations were problematic or offensive, and even back then the jury was kind of out on the matter. It's always more interesting to hear people who grew up questioning or queer try to make sense of Kanji's storyline and say, "yes, that feels true to me," or "no, I think this put a foot wrong."

I'm not queer, but I can kind of see both sides on both characters--the fact that Atlus kind of pulls back on overtly marking those characters as queer can be a disappointing thing for people who want to see obvious representation in games, but at the same time it also seems like there was a genuine attempt to at least address some of those issues, and that people found parts of themselves reflected in those characters (something that I feel is lacking to an extent in Persona 5, where so much of the stuff people find offensive is partially because it feels so casually tossed off). Rarely are representations of different identities totally perfect; indeed, you can argue that they have to be imperfect to be considered real.

Like, to change the context and make it racial (because that's something I do have some experience with), Asians in western culture are so often depicted as the "model minority" that to have an Asian character that is actually evil or selfish can itself be transgressive/progressive. There's so much pressure to depict minorities as innately good that they stop being actual people and turn into two-dimensional characters, there solely to support a specific message about racial integration rather than being allowed to breathe and live as other characters are. Having characters who are not completely 100% devoted to a queer identity, or question it and are in the process of figuring out who they are, is never going to be a perfect archetype of a queer person. But maybe, potentially, it feels more true to actual human beings, as opposed to a utopian image of what a gay or trans person should be.

But at the same time I totally get the impulse to say, "if you don't have lived experience, there is a level on which you cannot have this conversation." There are always going to be some things I will never understand about the queer experience, never feel with every fiber of my being, and so on some level anything I say will always be a little academic and a little distant. I don't think the answer is to cut myself out of those discussions, but I think some deference to people who do have real experience is warranted. In other words, I'm happy to say my piece and discuss with people, but I'm not really going to be upset if someone comes in and says "I'm queer and I think what you're saying is wrong, and here's my experience with those things to explain why." It's not really my right.

I guess what I'm saying is, I like this discussion and want to see more people of diverse experiences taking part in it, but also I don't think the OP meant to start the discussion in bad faith. It's not for me to moderate or referee the discussion, of course, so I'll just end my piece there.

 

[snow in jamaica]

I believe he was also involved in Digital Devil Saga's concept.(Inasmuch as adapting it from the novel, anyway)

Yu Godai, the original writer, left midway due to health issues and Tadashi Satomi took over. Godai wrote Quantum Devil Saga later as her own version of the story, but included Gale who was created by Satomi.

 

[Dice//]

And what's frustrating about games like XIII and even Tales of Zestiria is that they skirt the line way too much without ever fully comitting. I do think Vanille and Fang were totally lovers especially by the end of LR, and Sorey and Mikleo was heavily implied too, but why just fuck around? Tell us they're a couple.

Which is so weird in some ways....

I coulda sworn yuri/yaoi was...like way more than just a small niche sub-genre in Japan. Artists/creators seem to have no problem skirting the subject and heavily hinting it (in pretty beautiful ways sometimes too), but don't really commit to it. I guess you can't expect all artists to have the same vision of it though (much like anywhere).

But it's still kinda weird for a game series like Persona, about bringing out the real you out and not hiding your deeper darker secrets/inner-demons, would be....sometimes pretty shut-in about how it depicts different things. Kanji surprisingly in good faith, but flakes out during the final stretch.

*sigh*
We need a revolution here....

 

[asagami_]

*sigh*
We need a revolution here....

A Persona-esque Utena game would be so awesome.

 

[anaron]

It still could be considered problematic as a portrayal, which is the whole point. that kind of thing should not be in a game which proports itself to be about exploring semi progressive themes on exploring one's failings, and changing one's self and getting to know others beyond the rumors and the shallow bullshit of their appearance.

THe whole game constantly has people muttering stupid rumors under their breath about you that are not true, it should stay true to that in ever situation

I think what honestly bothers me more is the gross double standard regarding the age inappropriate relationships

 

[Deleted member 465307]

I haven't played any Persona games to completion, so I can't comment much. I will say that reading about the failings of some games is disheartening and that some of the analysis in this thread is very interesting.

What I really hope for is to play a big RPG at some point where we do see an unquestionably queer character integrated tightly into the main cast. It seems that characters like Dorian in DA:I or Jun in P2 match that. However, it would really be something to see a big RPG with a set main playable character (like a Lloyd Irving or Cloud Strife or maybe Geralt; basically not a build-a-character) who is canonically part of the LGBT community because that's the story a studio wanted to tell. I don't think it will ever happen outside of indie and AA developer (do these still exist?) efforts because of marketability and sales potential, but it would be cool.

 

[Taruranto]

My only gripe with the whole Jun thing is that while it is possible to return his feelings, the duology revolves around Tatsuya and Maya and their tragic love a lot, like, it's probably the focal point of EP, which kind of undermines the whole thing.

That being said Jun remains a positive portrayal of a gay boy either way without anyone pointing it out as something negative or funny, which is more than what modern Persona can say.

Atlus, you used to be so good with this stuff...

EP definitely pushes Maya more, but I don't think P2 ultimately ever sets for a "canon" option. IS definitely pushes Jun more on other hand, especially when you replay it and notice all the symbolism that you wouldn't get on the first play-through (Like the stuff with the watch and the lighter and how their reflects their Persona).

EP is an excellent sequel to IS, but it did feel more "safe" and less risky in its themes.

The background material pretty much goes "it's up to the player who these people ultimately like in IS (Lisa/Jun/Maya) and EP (Tatsuya/Katsuya)".

Tangentially related, but it's kinda sad that Jun only gets remembered as "the gay guy from P2" for most people, there are a lot of things going on with his character.

 

[petran79]

Which is so weird in some ways....

I coulda sworn yuri/yaoi was...like way more than just a small niche sub-genre in Japan. Artists/creators seem to have no problem skirting the subject and heavily hinting it (in pretty beautiful ways sometimes too), but don't really commit to it. I guess you can't expect all artists to have the same vision of it though (much like anywhere).

But it's still kinda weird for a game series like Persona, about bringing out the real you out and not hiding your deeper darker secrets/inner-demons, would be....sometimes pretty shut-in about how it depicts different things. Kanji surprisingly in good faith, but flakes out during the final stretch.

*sigh*
We need a revolution here....

Give Eien no Filena a try. An obscure SNES medieval fantasy JRPG,unreleased outside Japan. It is fan-translated. Grind heavy unfortunately.
First JRPG to go into yuri territory. There is also an anime OVA adaptation that has not been fansubbed.Based on a light novel.

 

[Razmos]

Final Fantasy Record Keeper kinda played with the Fang/Vanille thing with a Fang/Vanille based event:

They even had a joint limit break I think

But yeah representation is super poor right now

 

[Earthpainting]

I enjoyed how Valkyria Chronicles tried to tackle the subject. The game lists a bunch of traits of each of the 50-something characters with strengths, weaknesses, and quirks. Some of these traits are "hater" ones, that give this character a debuff whenever they're around someone they hate, like a specific character, men, women, people of certain races, etc. On the flip side of that coin, you have "lover" and "fancies" traits. These give clear stat boosts when you put them near characters they like. The fancies men/women trait specifically are the game's womaniser/man-eater types, but contextualised as a need to impress a certain gender. If you look at the list of people with these traits though, you'll see several men having the Fancies Men trait, and similarly women having the Fancies Women one.

This immediately is already more than most games would do, but if you use these characters, you'll notice that when they flirt with certain squad mates of the same sex, sometimes they get some reciprocation from people who not have have these listed traits. I can only assume that this means that some characters might be gay or bisexual and have outed themselves to the game's menus, while others could still be keeping to themselves. It allows them to have a much broader range of gay characters than most other big budget titles. The game wants you to know that these types of people exist, some might be "invisible", and everything will be nicer if you're considerate to people's likes and dislikes.

I thought it was a clever way to depict queer characters without straying too far from the horrors that take place in the story. It still has your typical spicy queen characters that Japan loves to depict homosexuality with, but they counter-balance it by not making him carry the LGBT banner all by himself.

I haven't played any Persona games to completion, so I can't comment much. I will say that reading about the failings of some games is disheartening and that some of the analysis in this thread is very interesting.

What I really hope for is to play a big RPG at some point where we do see an unquestionably queer character integrated tightly into the main cast. It seems that characters like Dorian in DA:I or Jun in P2 match that. However, it would really be something to see a big RPG with a set main playable character (like a Lloyd Irving or Cloud Strife or maybe Geralt; basically not a build-a-character) who is canonically part of the LGBT community because that's the story a studio wanted to tell. I don't think it will ever happen outside of indie and AA developer (do these still exist?) efforts because of marketability and sales potential, but it would be cool.

I read on GAF that Sorey, the protagonist of Tales of Zestiria, was confirmed by the developers to be romantically interested in his best friend and party member Mikleo. Going into this game with that information made it really cute and the most interesting Tales games had been in ages. I should warn you however that it is done in such a light and ambiguous way; that if Hideo Baba didn't say anything in an interview, you probably would have read their relationship as "best bros for life". I would have liked the game itself to have been that one extra step bolder, but I guess I won't look a gift horse in the mouth for now. They supposedly made a canonically gay lead in a series where not even straight protagonists can smooch or hold hands, and so I'll allow this post-release Dumbledoring.

 

[azyless]

I find LGBT representation in JRPGs pretty sad tbh. The bread crumbs we get, it's always ambiguous, implicit. I'm not sure I can consider it good representation when 90% of the player base probably just thinks they're friends. It's 2017 and subtext isn't good enough anymore.

 

[Aarglefarg]

I read on GAF that Sorey, the protagonist of Tales of Zestiria, was confirmed by the developers to be romantically interested in his best friend and party member Mikleo. Going into this game with that information made it really cute and the most interesting Tales games had been in ages. I should warn you however that it is done in such a light and ambiguous way; that if Hideo Baba didn't say anything in an interview, you probably would have read their relationship as "best bros for life". I would have liked the game itself to have been that one extra step bolder, but I guess I won't look a gift horse in the mouth for now. They supposedly made a canonically gay lead in a series where not even straight protagonists can smooch or hold hands, and so I'll allow this post-release Dumbledoring.

The ending here makes it pretty clear subtext. Skipping to 1:18 would save time. https://youtu.be/eBp5qKuV2hI

 

[Squire]

I find LGBT representation in JRPGs pretty sad tbh. The bread crumbs we get, it's always ambiguous, implicit. I'm not sure I can consider it good representation when 90% of the player base probably just thinks they're friends. It's 2017 and subtext isn't good enough anymore.

Are you specifying JRPGs because the thread was created around one in particular? Because your statement applies to gaming in general. Not really worth singling out any one genre.

 

[NickWright]

Not only does P2 handle gay characterization better than the modern games. It handles characterization in general better than the modern games. What I adored about P2 is the characters had a ton of depth and weren't stuck in the whole "I'm a good misunderstood student" or "I'm the perfect student!" roles that we can't break out of. In IS, we had an ACTUAL delinquent, a girl dealing with her inability to fit in in pretty awful ways (enjo kosai and drug abuse), the MC was a habitual class skipper, and bad boy. And that's not even getting in to how messed up Jun was.

And it also really handled body positivity really well, with Eikichi being in love with a big girl whose weight was not used for jokes a la Hanako.

 

[azyless]

Are you specifying JRPGs because the thread was created around one in particular? Because your statement applies to gaming in general. Not really worth singling out any one genre.

Well I don't mean to imply it's the worst genre but it's the one this thread is about. If anything it was probably more about the "Japan" part, even though I would hardly call it great representation, at least I've been able to play as and meet unambiguously gay characters in a few western games.

 

[Look! The Pie!]

That would have been so great, it'd retroactively make Yosuke a pretty amazing character, I mean him giving Kanji shit would be just his anxiety over the possibility of him being gay himself showing and all his unnecessary pervy crap would be just his desperation to prove to the world that he's straight.

I mean, that was what I took away from Yosuke even without the removed dialogue. Complete headcanon, but to me it makes so much sense and actually redeems his character in a way.

I enjoyed how Valkyria Chronicles tried to tackle the subject. The game lists a bunch of traits of each of the 50-something characters with strengths, weaknesses, and quirks. Some of these traits are "hater" ones, that give this character a debuff whenever they're around someone they hate, like a specific character, men, women, people of certain races, etc. On the flip side of that coin, you have "lover" and "fancies" traits. These give clear stat boosts when you put them near characters they like. The fancies men/women trait specifically are the game's womaniser/man-eater types, but contextualised as a need to impress a certain gender. If you look at the list of people with these traits though, you'll see several men having the Fancies Men trait, and similarly women having the Fancies Women one.

This immediately is already more than most games would do, but if you use these characters, you'll notice that when they flirt with certain squad mates of the same sex, sometimes they get some reciprocation from people who not have have these listed traits. I can only assume that this means that some characters might be gay or bisexual and have outed themselves to the game's menus, while others could still be keeping to themselves. It allows them to have a much broader range of gay characters than most other big budget titles. The game wants you to know that these types of people exist, some might be "invisible", and everything will be nicer if you're considerate to people's likes and dislikes.

I thought it was a clever way to depict queer characters without straying too far from the horrors that take place in the story. It still has your typical spicy queen characters that Japan loves to depict homosexuality with, but they counter-balance it by not making him carry the LGBT banner all by himself.

*slaps forehead*
How did I forget VC? I loved how Jann is pretty obviously gay and his crush on Largo is practically visible from space, but absolutely nobody gives him any shit for it. Even Largo, who doesn't seem at all perturbed and is in fact totally accepting of him.
And of course, all the other characters you mentioned.

 

[Kain]

FFXIII was weird because Fang and Vanille were obviously a couple, and specially Fang was extremely possessive of Vanille for example, but the game kind of ignores all possible relationships that were not Snow + Sera which was boring as fuck and not cute as the writers thought it would.

It's like the game was written by different writers and they decided to ignore each other contributions to the story and characters.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Didn't Front Mission 5 have one of the main protagonists who was homosexual? Not played it yet but that's what I heard.

And i always found it obvious that Emil was homosexual, especially his feelings towards Nier, he was just calm about it and held it in, not like he needed a big confession scene around it or anything. The fact that it flew over so many people's heads means it did a good job of showing a glimpse of his unrequited love for Nier. Nier saw Emil, I think, as a little brother. There was never any need to make it a big deal. Better if it's more subtle like that.

I liked the characters of Tatsuya and Jun and thought it's cool that Kaneko pushed for a homosexual relationship for a Japanese game in the late 90s. I do think Tatsuya and Maya are the canon pair though, going by what Eternal Punishment established.

 

[Kanann]

My only gripe with the whole Jun thing is that while it is possible to return his feelings, the duology revolves around Tatsuya and Maya and their tragic love a lot, like, it's probably the focal point of EP, which kind of undermines the whole thing.

That being said Jun remains a positive portrayal of a gay boy either way without anyone pointing it out as something negative or funny, which is more than what modern Persona can say.

Atlus, you used to be so good with this stuff...

It's brother/sister love?

Soulmate didn't mean just for couple, I personally count friend, best friend, family, and enemy too.


ps. Persona 2 best Persona