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[SoulPlaya]

Okay so the Fiancee and I just thought of a great idea for a reality show:

Take these people who make 200k a year and give them a bit lower than the median income a month for however many months. For the sake of argument lets say we give them 3-4k a month. Now we give them a mortgage that is 25% of that income, have them make payments on a used car, and from there just have them live their lives as Lower Middle Class people.

Make it so that whoever saves the most money per month gets an extra 200 for whatever. And whoever wins get a mountain of cocaine or something.

It would be glorious.

Especially the episode where they tell their kids they have to go to public school now.

Or the episode where they have to do the dishes.

I think their definition of rich would change.

I know 5 families who make $150-200K a year. They all spend about $4000 a month. All of their kids went to public high schools, all owned used cars (except for a cheap Kia one bought), and none could EVER afford a maid.

Then again, I live in Chicago, where you'll be paying a decent amount if you want to live in a decently safe area for a family.

 

[Divvy]

Okay so the Fiancee and I just thought of a great idea for a reality show:

Take these people who make 200k a year and give them a bit lower than the median income a month for however many months. For the sake of argument lets say we give them 3-4k a month. Now we give them a mortgage that is 25% of that income, have them make payments on a used car, and from there just have them live their lives as Lower Middle Class people.

Make it so that whoever saves the most money per month gets an extra 200 for whatever. And whoever wins get a mountain of cocaine or something.

It would be glorious.

Especially the episode where they tell their kids they have to go to public school now.

Or the episode where they have to do the dishes.

I think their definition of rich would change.

Again, this is Toronto, not the USA. Most 200kers here do not send their kids to private school or have maids. Most of the people in this class aren't tax evaders either as our capital gains tax system isn't nearly as broken as the USA's.

 

[Striek]

So if I make 200k a year, but live extremely modest and spend 30k a year, then I'm middle class?

No. Stupid logic is stupid.

Either way you're still getting 200k a year, a rich income. You can't say because someones live a rich lifestyle and doesn't save, they're not rich. A person making billions/yr could spend it all if they really wanted, that doesn't make them poor. But you can say someone who lives a poor lifestyle and saves, is rich because they have rich assets.

There's also the argument that finding a job that pays a professional rate in NYC is also more difficult because of a higher concentration of qualified people and the migration from other areas to that market... Just anecdotally, walk around DC for a day and keep track of how many Ivy League hats/hoodies/scarves you see in a day. Have fun with that job market.

No ones discussing whether or not people deserve their wealth or how hard it was to for them to obtain it, so the argument is irrelevant.

 

[Captain Sparrow]

That's not rich. It's a lot of money.

I know tons of people who have huge incomes, but never have money. The more people make, the more they spend.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

You know, I could be crazy, but there might some advantage to living in NYC over living in Ohio. The places you can go, the jobs you can work, the people you meet.

There's also the argument that finding a job that pays a professional rate in NYC is also more difficult because of a higher concentration of qualified people and the migration from other areas to that market... Just anecdotally, walk around DC for a day and keep track of how many Ivy League hats/hoodies/scarves you see in a day. Have fun with that job market.

 

[Particle Physicist]

200k is FAR from being rich, after taxes 1/2 is gone anyway. I live in Manhattan, and if you're making 200k an year you're not even middle class

I wouldn't consider someone "rich" unless they were pulling 750K+

BULLSHIT. I must have been a dirty ass homeless peasant then, when I was living there. 200k might not be enough for a certain lifestyle though.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

I'll trade him I make 20k a year lets see what he thinks is rich after that

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I'll trade him I make 20k a year lets see what he thinks is rich after that

swap places with a farmer in Yunnan and see if you feel poor after that

 

[cubicle47b]

This guy spends $26,400 on food and drink and leases a Honda Civic that somehow costs him $7,000 a year. I don't understand the world he lives in.

 

[Divvy]

This whole argument is so pointless because no one is going to agree on what this nebulous term "rich" means.

 

[Alucrid]

This whole argument is so pointless because no one is going to agree on what this nebulous term "rich" means.

People who make more than I do.

 

[Emerson]

It's obvious they're spending on some unnecessary things, but where I fall off the hate train is the point where everybody starts giving a shit. These people have jobs, they earned their money, let them use it. They're not poor, but they're still far away from the rich people who are completely out of touch with reality.

 

[Marty Chinn]

200k isn't upper middle class, 200k is very rich. Top 3% of households rich. It doesn't matter where you live, you will be living a rich lifestyle with that kind of money.

If you live in a richer neighborhood and you aren't massively more rich than those around you, that doesn't make you less rich. Paying more for those richer things doesn't mean you aren't rich, it means your fucking living a rich life.

That's bullshit. Where you live does make a difference. 200k in Iowa is not the same thing as 200k in Northern CA.

 

[Striek]

That's bullshit. Where you live does make a difference. 200k in Iowa is not the same thing as 200k in Northern CA.

Durrrrrrp. No shit. My point wasn't that 200k in one place is the same as 200k in another, my point is that 200k buys you a rich lifestyle pretty much everywhere.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

This guy spends $26,400 on food and drink and leases a Honda Civic that somehow costs him $7,000 a year. I don't understand the world he lives in.

580 a month for a civic?! Must include insurance and maintenance....and car washes.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I always feel these types of things are just designed by the truly rich to keep the lower classes divided and fighting among themselves. Have those making $50K think their enemies are professionals and small business owners making $200K a year while those making millions just laugh exploiting both for their own ends.

Then again, I'm damn near a commie, lol.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

This whole argument is so pointless because no one is going to agree on what this nebulous term "rich" means.

I actually think it's an interesting discussion.

The discussion on different "classes" is interesting as well because then other social factors come into play - how one speaks, who one associates with, what ones education is.

 

[Zaptruder]

wealthy lifestyle, not a rich lifestyle.

Typical conservative semantic obfuscatory nonsense.

These people are materially richer and more well off than the vast majority of humanity in the history of humanity.

100 billion human lives since humanity was a thing... and these aren't just the 1% of the current planetary order... they're 1% of 1% of 1%. Top income earners, in an extremely priviledged and numerically restricted nation, in the right period of humanity.

These people won't see any more benefit by having more. They'll see far more benefit by changing their perspectives and been extremely grateful for what they have and have been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to achieve.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

If you can't live VERY comfortably on 100k, you're doing it wrong. 200k is even better.

Most people interpret being rich as being able to buy all the things you want. If you make $200k in a city like Toronto and have a few kids, you will still have to budget everything.

Now I'll admit that some of their expenses are stupid like how much they spend on wine and clothes every month. But the amount they spent on their mortgage and car payments was surprisingly reasonable.

Also there's the silver lining that at least they spend their wealth rather than hoard it.

 

[Sophia]

This whole argument is so pointless because no one is going to agree on what this nebulous term "rich" means.

I define it as if you can pay $1400 for groceries, $800 wine, and $1000 fashion designer clothes for your area, on top of a maid, you're rich.

 

[Alucrid]

Typical conservative semantic obfuscatory nonsense.

These people are materially richer and more well off than the vast majority of humanity in the history of humanity.

100 billion human lives since humanity was a thing... and these aren't just the 1% of the current planetary order... they're 1% of 1% of 1%. Top income earners, in an extremely priviledged and numerically restricted nation, in the right period of humanity.

These people won't see any more benefit by having more. They'll see far more benefit by changing their perspectives and been extremely grateful for what they have and have been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to achieve.

As we play on our Xbox 360s and post on our computers through the internet.

 

[bill0527]

Household income last year $195k

Federal Taxes - $49,500
State Taxes - $7,200
Municipality Taxes and Licenses - $2,000 (wife and I have to pay this because we are self-employed and have to pay to each city we work in)

Continuing Education Expenses - $6,000 (required for my wife to keep her medical license and not reimbursed by anyone because again - self employed)

Mortgage - $26,400
Property Taxes - $5,000 (we live in one of the lowest counties for property taxes in our state)
Home Maintenance and upkeep - $1,500

Health Insurance for a family of 4, $2500 deductible per person, $30 office co-pays, $150 ER co-pay, $25 prescription co-pay - $15,600 (self-employed, so no employer contribution)

Medical Payments for what insurance didn't cover (prescriptions, office visits, and I met my deductible because I had to have a colonoscopy) - $4,000

Dental and Eye Care - $1,500 (we have no dental or vision insurance because it costs more than what we pay annually out of pocket and most of these plans don't cover very much)

Automobile Payments - $5,000 (we have 1 vehicle financed, 1 vehicle paid for - one vehicle is a 2010 honda van, the other a 2006 honda accord)
Automobile Insurance - $1,000
Automobile Taxes - $800
Vehicle Maintenance and Fuel - $6,000 (this is a high amount because my wife works at 3 different hospitals each of which are 45 minutes to an hour away from our home)

Daycare - $6,000
School Expenses (school lunch, activity fees, book fees, etc) - $500

Electricity & Gas Bill - $4,800 (we keep the therms on 68 degrees in winter and 76 F in summer)
Cable, Internet, Phone, 2 Cell phones - $3,600

Child Support (I have a daughter from a previous marriage) - $12,000

Clothing - $1,600
Trash Pickup - $200
Food - $8,000
Household Supplies - $500 (household cleaners, toilet paper, paper towels, etc.)

Entertainment 1 - $2,500 (Birthday Parties, Birthday Gifts, Christmas)
Entertainment 2 - $2,000 (Going out to eat, movies, buying random useless shit like video games, DVDs, etc.)

Charitable Donations 1 - $5,000 to local rescue mission
Charitable Donations 2 - $5,000 to local Goodwill

Retirement Contributions - $5,000
Savings - $7,000

This was how we spent pretty much all of our money in 2010. We took no vacations and we live like bohemians compared to most everyone else in our income bracket.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Durrrrrrp. No shit. My point wasn't that 200k in one place is the same as 200k in another, my point is that 200k buys you a rich lifestyle pretty much everywhere.

And I disagree with that because cost of living in different areas offset significantly what that 200k gets you.

 

[Alucrid]

Household income last year $195k

This was how we spent pretty much all of our money in 2010. We took no vacations and we live like bohemians compared to most everyone else in our income bracket.

Great post. I hope this gives people in this thread some perspective.

 

[RobotChant]

people thinking 200k a year isn't rich. It may not be filthy, and you have to watch your spending here and there, but most of life's pleasures are attainable. Thats rich.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

What I learned: Never have kids.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Bill, what geographic area? Don't need to be specific. Budget seems pretty reasonable.

 

[M-PG71C]

Between my wife and I, we make about $110K or so. We're both RNs and we do very well. We live very conservatively and as a result, we have a lot in savings and spending money.

Can we afford to shop at places like Whole Foods and drink $100 wines? Absolutely, but we don't see the point. Walmart and Dollar Tree does us just fine. We've always lived as if we had nothing, which was pretty fucking true considering our college days. We've always worked hard, budgeted our money, and lived below our means.

Wealth is built via prudence, wealth is security. We enjoy our security.

Of course, we have no kids and we live in Tennessee and its damn cheap to live here. So that does make a big difference.

 

[Lamel]

200K for a single person or a couple is pretty damn good.

200K for a family, is well off for sure, but not "rich".

 

[BobLoblaw]

This whole argument is so pointless because no one is going to agree on what this nebulous term "rich" means.

I'm fairly certain that if you asked this question to a broad number of random people, $200,000 would be considered rich since most people don't make anywhere near that much money.

 

[marrec]

Household income last year $195k

Federal Taxes - $49,500
State Taxes - $7,200
Municipality Taxes and Licenses - $2,000 (wife and I have to pay this because we are self-employed and have to pay to each city we work in)

Continuing Education Expenses - $6,000 (required for my wife to keep her medical license and not reimbursed by anyone because again - self employed)

Mortgage - $26,400
Property Taxes - $5,000 (we live in one of the lowest counties for property taxes in our state)
Home Maintenance and upkeep - $1,500

Health Insurance for a family of 4, $2500 deductible per person, $30 office co-pays, $150 ER co-pay, $25 prescription co-pay - $15,600 (self-employed, so no employer contribution)

Medical Payments for what insurance didn't cover (prescriptions, office visits, and I met my deductible because I had to have a colonoscopy) - $4,000

Dental and Eye Care - $1,500 (we have no dental or vision insurance because it costs more than what we pay annually out of pocket and most of these plans don't cover very much)

Automobile Payments - $5,000 (we have 1 vehicle financed, 1 vehicle paid for - one vehicle is a 2010 honda van, the other a 2006 honda accord)
Automobile Insurance - $1,000
Automobile Taxes - $800
Vehicle Maintenance and Fuel - $6,000 (this is a high amount because my wife works at 3 different hospitals each of which are 45 minutes to an hour away from our home)

Daycare - $6,000
School Expenses (school lunch, activity fees, book fees, etc) - $500

Electricity & Gas Bill - $4,800 (we keep the therms on 68 degrees in winter and 76 F in summer)
Cable, Internet, Phone, 2 Cell phones - $3,600

Child Support (I have a daughter from a previous marriage) - $12,000

Clothing - $1,600
Trash Pickup - $200
Food - $8,000
Household Supplies - $500 (household cleaners, toilet paper, paper towels, etc.)

Entertainment 1 - $2,500 (Birthday Parties, Birthday Gifts, Christmas)
Entertainment 2 - $2,000 (Going out to eat, movies, buying random useless shit like video games, DVDs, etc.)

Charitable Donations 1 - $5,000 to local rescue mission
Charitable Donations 2 - $5,000 to local Goodwill

Retirement Contributions - $5,000
Savings - $7,000

This was how we spent pretty much all of our money in 2010. We took no vacations and we live like bohemians compared to most everyone else in our income bracket.

Would you be interested in starring in a reality show?

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Typical conservative semantic obfuscatory nonsense.

These people are materially richer and more well off than the vast majority of humanity in the history of humanity.

100 billion human lives since humanity was a thing... and these aren't just the 1% of the current planetary order... they're 1% of 1% of 1%. Top income earners, in an extremely priviledged and numerically restricted nation, in the right period of humanity.

These people won't see any more benefit by having more. They'll see far more benefit by changing their perspectives and been extremely grateful for what they have and have been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to achieve.

actually they will see more benefit from having more. I'll give you 200k this year and then 10 million dollars the following year. you will see a difference, trust me.

sorry, at which 1% do we consider rich? north americans, who are in the top 1% of the world? the top 1% of north americans? the top 1% of the 1% of north americans? the 1% of the 1% of the 1% as you say? I'm getting confused, but I am pretty sure 200k isn't in the 1.0 × 10^-6 range.

if you've read the thread, you'll see I largely agree with you. 200k a year is absurdly rich compared to how the majority of humans live. but so is 50k. I am looking at this from the perspective of a rich north american with our society in mind.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I define it as if you can pay $1400 for groceries, $800 wine, and $1000 fashion designer clothes for your area, on top of a maid, you're rich.

I just don't get how this is possible. Based on what people here are saying, they get about $127K after income tax. That's about 10K a month. How can they spend 1400 a month for groceries, $1000 (was it a month?) on clothes, $800 a month on wine, $2000 a month on rent, $1200 a month on property taxes, $10000 a year on travel, $7000 a year on a car (do they own others?), $20,000 a year in donations? How much is their maid? How much is their other expenses? Kids' expenses?

Do they just not save a penny? How can this be possible? I'm looking to be an IM doc one day, and their average salary is 175-180K a year. I'm probably going to have to spend $2500-$3000 a month just on student loans. How are they able to live like that?

 

[Alucrid]

I'm fairly certain that if you asked this question to a broad number of random people, $200,000 would be considered rich since most people don't make anywhere near that much money.

Yeah, but someone living on the street would consider someone making $50,000 'rich'. Someone making $50,000 would consider someone making $200,000 rich. Someone making $200,000 would consider someone making $1,000,000 rich. Someone making 1,000,000 would consider someone making $125,000,000 rich.

 

[bill0527]

Bill, what geographic area? Don't need to be specific. Budget seems pretty reasonable.

Southern Indiana.

 

[aorange999]

Durrrrrrp. No shit. My point wasn't that 200k in one place is the same as 200k in another, my point is that 200k buys you a rich lifestyle pretty much everywhere.

Move to NYC and try living an NYC 'rich' lifestyle on 200k you will live paycheck to paycheck.

 

[Zaptruder]

actually they will see more benefit from having more. I'll give you 200k this year and then 10 million dollars the following year. you will see a difference, trust me.

Materially of course. But a billion dollars could make a lot of material difference to someone with 10 million.

Point I'm making is, 200k is enough to make people more than happy if they desire it... any enhancement to life and happiness would essentially need to come from the brain.

Of course, when I spin it like that, raw income is not the only metric that matters anymore... but as a general rule of thumb, earning that much allows you to cover most of the 'needs' you have as a person, providing you with enough time to do other stuff that can make you happy.

 

[Lonely1]

Most people interpret being rich as being able to buy all the things you want. If you make $200k in a city like Toronto and have a few kids, you will still have to budget everything.

Now I'll admit that some of their expenses are stupid like how much they spend on wine and clothes every month. But the amount they spent on their mortgage and car payments was surprisingly reasonable.

Also there's the silver lining that at least they spend their wealth rather than hoard it.

Well, all the things I want would include a trip to the ISS, a private island and a nice big yacht. But I doubt I could afford than even with a low seven figure annually income.. I would argue that someone spending more on amenities than the total of what a middle income family lives on can be considered "rich".

 

[Divvy]

I'm fairly certain that if you asked this question to a broad number of random people, $200,000 would be considered rich since most people don't make anywhere near that much money.

But should that word be defined by the majority? Should it ignore any regional variables? Is someone that makes 199k not rich then? How about 198k? What about the tax situation they are in?

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I just don't get how this is possible. Based on what people here are saying, they get about $127K after income tax. That's about 10K a month. How can they spend 1400 a month for groceries, $1000 (was it a month?) on clothes, $800 a month on wine, $2000 a month on rent, $1200 a month on property taxes, $10000 a year on travel, $7000 a year on a car (do they own others?), $20,000 a year in donations? How much is their maid? How much is their other expenses? Kids' expenses?

Do they just not save a penny? How can this be possible? I'm looking to be an IM doc one day, and their average salary is 175-180K a year. I'm probably going to have to spend $2500-$3000 a month just on student loans. How are they able to live like that?

keeping up with the joneses. people are very bad at managing their money. when people earn more money... they simply spend more.

I actually find there is far more freedom in not accumulating a lot of material wealth. It makes it that much easier to relocate, travel, and do the things that really matter. But most people don't feel this way.

Materially of course. But a billion dollars could make a lot of material difference to someone with 10 million.

Point I'm making is, 200k is enough to make people more than happy if they desire it... any enhancement to life and happiness would essentially need to come from the brain.

Of course, when I spin it like that, raw income is not the only metric that matters anymore... but as a general rule of thumb, earning that much allows you to cover most of the 'needs' you have as a person, providing you with enough time to do other stuff that can make you happy.

well, I basically agree with you. unfortunately, the majority of people, rich, poor, middle class, etc. buy into the materialistic individualistic western lifestyle. also, things do change once you have several children. 127k after taxes split between a family of 5 is totally different from 127k after taxes for 1 - 2 people.

 

[Particle Physicist]

.

 

[Alucrid]

.

Might want to hold off on this then

Wait:

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#iPad

I'm thinking about it too. Gonna wait and see what's in the 3.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I think this read has helped illustrate how bad things have gotten where people consider bill's lifestyle to be "rich" (and he seems like just a professional). That's where our problems lie. That's how bad things have gotten for so many Americans.

 

[Sophia]

Spend some time in a homeless shelter, see how fucking rich and lucky you really are, jackass.

Try living on a family of four with two people making minimum income, one person a student, and two people disabled. It sucks, to put it in nicely. Get to consider yourself lucky if you get more than Grilled Cheese Sandwiches or a frozen pizza for dinner.

Making even a faction of what the family in the OP makes would be a blessing.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Yeah, but someone living on the street would consider someone making $50,000 'rich'. Someone making $50,000 would consider someone making $200,000 rich. Someone making $200,000 would consider someone making $1,000,000 rich. Someone making 1,000,000 would consider someone making $125,000,000 rich.

That's just it. Most people don't make anywhere near $200,000 a year. And since that's the magic number in this thread, we can assume that most people would consider it as being "rich." Besides, this logic is flawed. If you asked the person living on the street if someone making $50,000 a year was as rich as someone making $200,000 a year, they'd say no.

 

[Slavik81]

I'm fairly certain that if you asked this question to a broad number of random people, $200,000 would be considered rich since most people don't make anywhere near that much money.

But if you went to see a movie in a busy theatre, there would probably be at least one couple in your seating row that does make that much. And your night would probably be pretty similar to theirs.

 

[Alucrid]

Try living on a family of four with two people making minimum income, one persona student, and two people disabled. It sucks, to put it in nice safe to work terms. Get to consider yourself lucky if you get more than Grilled Cheese Sandwiches or a frozen pizza for dinner.

Making even a faction of what the family in the OP makes would be a blessing.

Wha?

 

[Lothars]

Household income last year $195k

This was how we spent pretty much all of our money in 2010. We took no vacations and we live like bohemians compared to most everyone else in our income bracket.

Great post. I hope this gives people in this thread some perspective.

Thanks for posting that Bill, I agree it is a great post and I unfortunately I don't think it will change anyones mind but I defintely don't think anyone that makes 200,000 is rich but they are upper middle class.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Materially of course. But a billion dollars could make a lot of material difference to someone with 10 million.

Point I'm making is, 200k is enough to make people more than happy if they desire it... any enhancement to life and happiness would essentially need to come from the brain.

Of course, when I spin it like that, raw income is not the only metric that matters anymore... but as a general rule of thumb, earning that much allows you to cover most of the 'needs' you have as a person, providing you with enough time to do other stuff that can make you happy.

I remember reading a study that the plateau for "happiness" that you receive from your paycheck occurs at 75k per person assuming no debt. That would be 150k for a couple. That seems reasonable as a point where you can feel secure in being able to maintain a comfortable lifestyle indefinitely (aka have kids, retire, and still live and entertain yourself).

 

[Sophia]

Wha?

XD. Yeah I'm trying to do other stuff while typing, and I have a headache. Excuse me. =p