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[Branduil]

- If you end up selling the same number of copies for the cheaper set compared to how many copies of each volume you would normally be able to sell at the normal business model, how much money would you have lost with this experiment?

The entire problem is that the industry only views things in terms of these short-term losses without considering the long-term impact.

Spoiler

Because it's easier.

 

[Jex]

By "smaller", you mean so small that it doesn't exist at all? If the otaku market seriously dried up, and no one was willing to pay crazy amounts of money for this stuff anymore, pretty much all of the industry would disappear along with them. Maybe Ghibli would survive, since they're just about the only studio consistently making mainstream products.

I kind of want to see that happen, in the hopes that something better would emerge out of the ashes.

I certainly don't expect the market to grow, but I also don't expect to be completely disappear, unfortunately. It looks like it will keep on going in a rather more...boring fashion than that.

 

[duckroll]

The entire problem is that the industry only views things in terms of these short-term losses without considering the long-term impact.

Spoiler

Because it's easier.

It's not "the industry" though. The industry is made up of several companies, who could realistically very easily go bankrupt if they decide to try something crazy with all the cash cows they have, instead of keeping things the way they are. On the other hand, it would be pointless to try something like this with anything OTHER than the cash cows, because if you're selling your low-tier products in an alternative way, no one cares in Japan. It would have to be a major shift on products the mainstream might care about (ie: Gundam, Eva, Madoka, Geass, etc) or it will just be another drop in the pond. So it's really a catch-22. If there's significant risk involved, why would anyone want to make the first move if they're somewhat comfortable as it is?

 

[Branduil]

It's not "the industry" though. The industry is made up of several companies, who could realistically very easily go bankrupt if they decide to try something crazy with all the cash cows they have, instead of keeping things the way they are. On the other hand, it would be pointless to try something like this with anything OTHER than the cash cows, because if you're selling your low-tier products in an alternative way, no one cares in Japan. It would have to be a major shift on products the mainstream might care about (ie: Gundam, Eva, Madoka, Geass, etc) or it will just be another drop in the pond. So it's really a catch-22. If there's significant risk involved, why would anyone want to make the first move if they're somewhat comfortable as it is?

The fact that affordable video releases and works that appeal to a general audience is something "crazy" shows how bad things have gotten.

 

[scy]

Well, at least I can put this thing to bed finally.

I completely forgot I never finished Macross Frontier. And, so what you're saying is ...

Spoiler

best girl wins? I can get behind this~

 

[RurouniZel]

Imagine all the kinky shit they'll be doing in fifty years.

Belldandy will be fine; she's immortal. Keiichi will need extra Viagra helpings though.

 

[firehawk12]

I completely forgot I never finished Macross Frontier. And, so what you're saying is ...

Spoiler

best girl wins? I can get behind this~

Yeah, definitively too. It's a no BS ending.

 

[duckroll]

The fact that affordable video releases and works that appeal to a general audience is something "crazy" shows how bad things have gotten.

But it has always been this way. Since the beginning. VHS, LD, DVD, BD.

 

[Jex]

[Idolm@ster 19]

Well, this was certainly an episode of Idolm@ster. Nothing really remarkable about it (although compared to many other shows the production values are still superior), I find in the interactions between a few of the characters fairly enjoyable but whenever I see the laughably over the top 'rival studio' or the painfully dull 'manger' interact with the cast I'm reminded of how artificial the whole product is.

 

[Branduil]

But it has always been this way. Since the beginning. VHS, LD, DVD, BD.

There have been series which appealed to a more general audience in the past, though. And obviously the Ghibli movies. It's not impossible to think there's an untapped market there.

 

[LegatoB]

There have been series which appealed to a more general audience in the past, though. And obviously the Ghibli movies. It's not impossible to think there's an untapped market there.

Let's not pretend Ghibli's films are at all comparable to any other Japanese animation in terms of sales/consumption.

 

[duckroll]

There have been series which appealed to a more general audience in the past, though. And obviously the Ghibli movies. It's not impossible to think there's an untapped market there.

What exactly are we talking about here though? I'm only discussing the economics of selling anime in Japan. The pricing structure, the marketing, and why they remain the way they are. I'm not discussing anything about the actual content of shows or anything.

 

[Branduil]

Let's not pretend Ghibli's films are at all comparable to any other Japanese animation in terms of sales/consumption.

Isn't that the problem? Unless you believe Ghibli has some magical formula that cannot be recreated.

What exactly are we talking about here though? I'm only discussing the economics of selling anime in Japan. The pricing structure, the marketing, and why they remain the way they are. I'm not discussing anything about the actual content of shows or anything.

I don't know how you do it, but there's clearly potential for a bigger market than they are currently satisfying.

 

[CornBurrito]

I like to think it played on that purposefully, though.

As do I considering the first few moments play it out like typical wish fulfillment with Yuki being ecstatic over having all the right choices written down for him.

But then it is subverted.

 

[duckroll]

Isn't that the problem? Unless you believe Ghibli has some magical formula that cannot be recreated.

Yes they sorta do. It's called a strong brand name. That's really all there is to it. Mainstream appeal = familiar brands, known names. That sort of traditional and culture is very hard to replicate. It is not a matter of having quality, but a matter of building up something into people's lives. This is also why Gundam (UC stuff in particular) and Eva are so successful compared to everything else.

Also see: Dragon Quest.

 

[Steroyd]

Un-Go - 06

What the heck, a mysterious mystery and an interesting deduction to boot, and what's this? I am actually interested in seeing where this is headed now.

 

[duckroll]

I don't know how you do it, but there's clearly potential for a bigger market than they are currently satisfying.

I'll be blunt here. I don't think so. Remember, first and foremost we're not talking about a form of medium at large. We're not talking about films and TV series. We're talking about a sub-set of the medium: animated films and animated TV series. The trend worldwide is that there isn't a particularly huge audience for animation representing a variety of general audience storytelling. You have arthouse stuff which is critically acclaimed but not commercially successful, and in each country you have a sort of niche which fits into what people "expect" animation to be (children's stories, adult comedy, etc).

You will find that there are almost NO consistent examples anywhere in the world, of animation being as varied an industry as you will find in Japan, even though we complain all the time about how everything "today" is moeblobs. The fact remains that Japan is about as good as it gets when it comes to animation as a "general" medium. Animation will always be considered a second-class medium to most mainstream audiences anywhere in the world, because it is not live action. Why is this? There are probably different reasons and opinions, some of it might be cultural, or psychological, or it might simply be familiarity and acceptance. Either way, it is what it is and I doubt it's going to change because society has other things to worry about.

 

[RurouniZel]

Yes they sorta do. It's called a strong brand name. That's really all there is to it. Mainstream appeal = familiar brands, known names. That sort of traditional and culture is very hard to replicate. It is not a matter of having quality, but a matter of building up something into people's lives. This is also why Gundam (UC stuff in particular) and Eva are so successful compared to everything else.

Also see: Dragon Quest.

Also see: Disney

 

[duckroll]

Also see: Disney

Pixar is the new Disney.

 

[Neo C.]

Hibiki looks cute behind the okinawan sweet balls.

 

[firehawk12]

I guess part of my problem is that because Yuno is an established stereotypical character type (yandere) I have a hard time seeing or accepting that as actual subversion.

It's a "red herring".

 

[RurouniZel]

Pixar is the new Disney.

Touché.

 

[Jex]

Anne of Green Gables 38

As I've been with this cast of character for a long time and have seen them grow up an changed over the course of the story, I'm finding these more serious episodes extremely affecting. It's not really an 'emotional roller-coaster' or anything like that, I'm just moved by their struggles.

This really speaks to extremely high quality of the show overall.

 

[Branduil]

Pixar is the new Disney.

Well that kind of proves it's not impossible to create a brand name in a relatively short amount of time. Obviously you need some powerful financial backing, but still, Pixar is very young compared to older brand names.

 

[RurouniZel]

Well that kind of proves it's not impossible to create a brand name in a relatively short amount of time. Obviously you need some powerful financial backing, but still, Pixar is very young compared to older brand names.

But Pixar had help establishing that name... from Disney.

 

[duckroll]

Well that kind of proves it's not impossible to create a brand name in a relatively short amount of time. Obviously you need some powerful financial backing, but still, Pixar is very young compared to older brand names.

Of course it's not impossible. Eva is younger than Gundam, but so much more successful. But it does require magic, and is not some sort of success formula which can be copied or replicated easily. It also does not mean that there is a huge market open to everyone if they simply applied the right business strategy. It only means that once in a while, someone can make a strong impact beyond the norm.

 

[firehawk12]

I don't think you're using that correctly......or that you ever have, unless I'm misunderstanding you. *_*

"Correctly"!

Oh, I guess I should explain - I just find this whole Mirai Nikki thing amusing based on my Utena experience.

 

[wsippel]

Guilty Crown Episode 6

Pro-tip for anime fans with gambling tendencies: Never ever make a bet with anyone that Guilty Crown cannot get any dumber. It will always prove you wrong. I wouldn't make such a bet myself anyway, but just saying, if you plan to, don't. It's amazing how moronic the writing in this show is. Nothing feels "real" honestly. The stuff that come out of the characters' mouths, the way scenes occur, the way one thing leads to another, it's all sketchy at best, and completely retarded at worst. Today's episode is something I would classify under "at worst".

Ever watched Seikon no Qwaser?

 

[firehawk12]

Ever watched Seikon no Qwaser?

I don't know if a show based on breast milk could get any dumber than the premise itself though.

 

[watervengeance]

Macross F: The False Songstress and The Wings of Goodbye:

Finally decided to watch through the second movie and scrub through the first movie again as a recap. I'm still struck by how much these movies felt like concert movies for a band you might like (I do, since I actually like the MacF songs), but where the band refuses to perform any of their hit songs except the one song they are forced to perform out of obligation. Maybe if I didn't come in expecting a greatest hits concert, it's possible I might have enjoyed the music more.

As for the films as films, anime TV to film adaptations seem to always fall into an awkward paradigm. Either they are straight adaptations of the greatest hits of a show, a direct continuation of the show, or a reimagination of the show that recontextualizes and in some cases retcons the events of the series that it is based on... and it feels like no matter which way you go, there's something that's lost in that translation between media. It's not that MacF was the best thing in the world, but reinventing the wheel was pointless and led to many scenes that just made no sense (other than to set up more concert scenes, I suppose). Of course, they also released an honest to god actual concert movie, so I'm not even sure if there was a point to this exercise at all.

This was the only reference to Triangular for example:
http://i.imgur.com/9iQ45l.jpg[/IMG

And instead of actually playing up the triangle, they just spent time yammering about folds and control chips and crap no one really cares about.

Also, there must have been a lot of Alto doujin out there or something because they gave up and just decided to make him a maid for a scene:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/wIpT5l.jpg[/IMG

I will say, probably the only thing that the movies have going for them is that the new ending is much, much better. I think these pictures pretty much show which side they wanted you to fall on anyway:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tNQoEl.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Ys6Myl.jpg[/IMG

Although, someone couldn't help themselves and basically loaded the first minute with imagery that prepares you for the inevitable:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/OklGOl.jpg[/IMG

Well, at least I can put this thing to bed finally.[/QUOTE]

I was very disappointed in the lack of Triangle imagery in the movies.

 

[Steroyd]

Guilty Crown - 06

Shu is an absolute retard, I'll pretend that was a Geass, and LAZOOOORS.

But Pixar had help establishing that name... from Disney.

Toy Story did a better job establishing Pixar, Disney bought out Pixar late in the game and ironically it was Pixar's animators that saved Disney because Disney themselves ran out of talent (had watched a documentary).

 

[firehawk12]

I was very disappointed in the lack of Triangle imagery in the movies.

And then there's the fact that the love triangle relationship itself didn't really manifest itself in the movies at all. That's something you just have to bring with you from the TV series, which is a dumb way to write a movie.

 

[wsippel]

I don't know if a show based on breast milk could get any dumber than the premise itself though.

It can't. Same author, though.

 

[firehawk12]

Correctly?!

See my above edit. :icarus :lol

Have you seen Seikon no Qwaser II?

We watched those first eps together. Even that twist wasn't dumb considering the overall premise of the show!

It can't. Same author, though.

Wow, really? That explains many things.

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Wait, so Un-Go 6 was actually good? Maybe I'll pick the series back up.

 

[Branduil]

Of course it's not impossible. Eva is younger than Gundam, but so much more successful. But it does require magic, and is not some sort of success formula which can be copied or replicated easily. It also does not mean that there is a huge market open to everyone if they simply applied the right business strategy. It only means that once in a while, someone can make a strong impact beyond the norm.

That's not the same thing as magic.

I think it's definitely possible for the anime industry to be healthier than it is right now.

 

[wsippel]

Wow, really? That explains many things.

Really.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Macross F: The False Songstress and The Wings of Goodbye:

Well, at least I can put this thing to bed finally.

wait a choice is finally made?

MEGATON.

 

[firehawk12]

wait a choice is finally made?

MEGATON.

Yep!

 

[scy]

Correctly?!

Correctly!

Have you seen Seikon no Qwaser II?

I plead the fifth.

 

[Thoraxes]

P4 07
Fuck yeah, I love this show.

THE NEXT EPISODE IS

Spoiler

THE SCHOOL TRIP

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! I'm hyped as fuck for it.

 

[duckroll]

That's not the same thing as magic.

I think it's definitely possible for the anime industry to be healthier than it is right now.

I'm sorry but you'll have to define that in more detail. Healthier in what sense? And how would it get there? What changes would be made in such a scenario, who would be making these changes, etc. I'll love to have an in-depth discussion about this with people who can put forth logical and well thought out points.

 

[Risette]

To be fair, I'm going to support him here. Ep10 of Penguin Drum was mostly panned because of the art inconsistencies both within the episode, and in the context of the larger series. It wasn't just the art that was bad either, the actual animation was notably less energetic, the penguins did not look as cute or exciting as they normally did in their background gags. These all led to a relatively mediocre episode.

So yes, I would say that all that goes without saying (I am only repeating it here for the sake of the argument), and any regular reader of the thread, especially you, who he was directly responding to, would know what is indicated by IT IS UGLY THEREFORE IT SUCKS in this case.

Sometimes I feel like you're the only one who understands me~

 

[Branduil]

I'm sorry but you'll have to define that in more detail. Healthier in what sense? And how would it get there? What changes would be made in such a scenario, who would be making these changes, etc. I'll love to have an in-depth discussion about this with people who can put forth logical and well thought out points.

Healthier as in being able to pay their animators a decent living wage while also making shows that aren't hideously low-budget and can appeal to a more general audience.

 

[Jim E. Rossler]

That's not the same thing as magic.

I think it's definitely possible for the anime industry to be healthier than it is right now.

NO
ITS NOT POSSIBLE
BUY ANIME FOR $30 AN EPISODE
ITS THE ONLY WAY

 

[duckroll]

Healthier as in being able to pay their animators a decent living wage while also making shows that aren't hideously low-budget and can appeal to a more general audience.

You just mentioned 3 things which aren't really related in very meaningful ways though. This tells me that you're approaching this from a very general "feeling" point of view, without wanted to actually engage on a serious discussion on the specifics of the industry and the cause and effect of what results in these unrelated issues.

- Animators being paid jack shit is problem with the culture of the animation production industry. It this not a case where everyone in the production is being paid shoestring salaries just so the show can turn a profit. Instead it is a case of a the production culture for animators being used to being the bottom rung of the pay list, and not having the balls to fight for their own rights for fear of being rendered irrelevant by foreign studios in South Korea and China who are more than willing to work for much cheaper rates without complaining.

- Not every anime is low budget, and often poor art or crappy animation is less a direct result of a lack of budget, but rather shitty work by the people being paid. The production budget for the average anime in Japan is probably higher than the average cost of most American produced animation series. Yet no one ever says Avatar is "unhealthy" because of a low budget. After all it's entirely animated in South Korea.

- Appeal to a general audience is a sketchy definition. Something that can appeal to certain audiences does not automatically mean that those audiences will give it a chance or care much about it, due to various other factors. Keep in mind we're talking about animation here. The very fact that something is animated means that any potential audience already has certain conditioned expectations of it. Ultimately the only audience which is totally open-minded about what to expect from animation productions in Japan, are probably long time anime fans. This is not something that can be changed easily. You can make a show like Michiko & Hacchin. Getting someone who would enjoy a show like that in live action to feel the same way about it in animated form though, is a totally different matter.


So these are 3 completely unrelated points, which are a result of different problems and represent different challenges that the industry faces. Grouping them together and saying "well if you can overcome all that it will be healthier" isn't really a very meaningful statement. It's like saying "well the government can do more" when complaining about how a country is poorly run. It's not a proper critique, but just a casual complaint. That doesn't result in any good discussion.

 

[Ezalc]

Awkward Evolved?

No that's the next step. We haven't gotten there.... yet.

Naw, it was awkward before this. Now it's...

<----------

Disturbing?

He's kind of like the 'every man' that you find in an American show, except he's far less palatable because of his 'weak' disposition. If it's a character type that truly resonates, and it's persistence throughout the years seems to suggest that it does, then perhaps that says something interesting about the male audience for this kind of work in Japan.

I see what you're doing here and I won't fall for it. You won't be able to make me have an actual discussion, that's some devious plan you had there but I saw through it buddy. You can't fool this devilishly handsome poster. The only thing it says is how the common Japanese otaku can relate to such main characters, in terms of personality, which is rather sad.

 

[Branduil]

You just mentioned 3 things which aren't really related in very meaningful ways though. This tells me that you're approaching this from a very general "feeling" point of view, without wanted to actually engage on a serious discussion on the specifics of the industry and the cause and effect of what results in these unrelated issues.

This is the anime thread. I don't really want to post ABF-length dissertations if that's what you mean.

- Animators being paid jack shit is problem with the culture of the animation production industry. It this not a case where everyone in the production is being paid shoestring salaries just so the show can turn a profit. Instead it is a case of a the production culture for animators being used to being the bottom rung of the pay list, and not having the balls to fight for their own rights for fear of being rendered irrelevant by foreign studios in South Korea and China who are more than willing to work for much cheaper rates without complaining.

- Not every anime is low budget, and often poor art or crappy animation is less a direct result of a lack of budget, but rather shitty work by the people being paid. The production budget for the average anime in Japan is probably higher than the average cost of most American produced animation series. Yet no one ever says Avatar is "unhealthy" because of a low budget. After all it's entirely animated in South Korea.

I don't think these are separate issues. An industry with crappy wages is going to have a harder time attracting good talent. Also, I was under the impression that Avatar's budget was substantially higher than most anime, regardless of where it was animated.

- Appeal to a general audience is a sketchy definition. Something that can appeal to certain audiences does not automatically mean that those audiences will give it a chance or care much about it, due to various other factors. Keep in mind we're talking about animation here. The very fact that something is animated means that any potential audience already has certain conditioned expectations of it. Ultimately the only audience which is totally open-minded about what to expect from animation productions in Japan, are probably long time anime fans. This is not something that can be changed easily. You can make a show like Michiko & Hacchin. Getting someone who would enjoy a show like that in live action to feel the same way about it in animated form though, is a totally different matter.

Well, it seems to me that, given the widespread popularity of manga in Japan, there isn't a stigma against drawings used in storytelling per se. There's a reason anime is a niche but manga is not.

So these are 3 completely unrelated points, which are a result of different problems and represent different challenges that the industry faces. Grouping them together and saying "well if you can overcome all that it will be healthier" isn't really a very meaningful statement. It's like saying "well the government can do more" when complaining about how a country is poorly run. It's not a proper critique, but just a casual complaint. That doesn't result in any good discussion.

Not my problem.

 

[duckroll]

Oh, so you don't really want to discuss it and you're just leading me on to troll me? Sorry I wasted my time then.

 

[Branduil]

I wasn't trying to troll, I was just annoyed at you asking me questions and then dismissing the discussion.