Red Blaster
Member
how was last week's klan meeting btw
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2012 First U.S. Presidential Debate |OT| OK Libya... We need a leader, not a reader.
- Thread starter deviljho
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how was last week's klan meeting btw
Despite Romney flat out lying many times earlier today, I have to give him the win. Obama Sounded like a fumbling umming and ahh'ing dolt. He just wasn't nearly as attack ready, and spent so long on the defence he forgot to pounce on certain key points. He also spent way too much time just composing sentences, and on top of that his general mood and confidence was awful. Surprised there was no mention of the 47%, Romney's tax rates or anything like that.
I think sometimes Obama is too much of a gentlemen, only this time it was without the slickness and confidence we're used to seeing from him.
I think sometimes Obama is too much of a gentlemen, only this time it was without the slickness and confidence we're used to seeing from him.
For what it's worth, the incidence of cancer in eastern Kentucky is considerably higher than in the state as a whole. I wonder why?
Mammoth Jones
Member
Rope-a-dope. It's the only thing that makes sense.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
There are countless factors that could contribute to something like that besides coal pollution but it is often made to be the scapegoat. Eastern Kentucky is a very poor region with bad health care facilities and many of its inhabitants are well below the national average in terms of lifestyle choices such as diet, amount of exercise, etc.
Just as an anecdote, when I moved to this region I was shocked at how much everyone smoked and chewed tobacco. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of coal miners in this area are tobacco users.
Point being: correlation does not imply causation.
I've also heard many people throw out the idea that poverty is directly related to the existence of coal companies in a region. I find that idea to be hilariously absurd given that the average yearly income for employees at most coal companies is somewhere around $80,000. But, it's an easy way to dismiss the fact that the nation in general does not care about this area of the country, as is further evidenced by President Obama's administrative efforts to kill off the coal industry without providing alternative job solutions for citizens in the central Appalachian region of the US.
Politics.
Sirpopopop
Member
Simply put, to say that Obama won that debate or even came close to a draw is to put your own bias on display, and damage your credibility on all subjects.
That's because you would be lying.
Obama struck me as one thing during that debate:
WOEFULLY WOEFULLY WOEFULLY UNPREPARED.
He let Romney push him all over, didn't challenge him on the $716 billion on Medicare reductions, and didn't challenge him on his claim that his tax plan won't cut taxes for the wealthy despite the fact that his own campaign website stated they were going for an across the board 20% tax cut.
That's because you would be lying.
Obama struck me as one thing during that debate:
WOEFULLY WOEFULLY WOEFULLY UNPREPARED.
He let Romney push him all over, didn't challenge him on the $716 billion on Medicare reductions, and didn't challenge him on his claim that his tax plan won't cut taxes for the wealthy despite the fact that his own campaign website stated they were going for an across the board 20% tax cut.
JetBlackPanda
Member
come on man, there is no big plan to come back and win. Romney flat out won last night.
Granted he lied and said things that were against even his own talking points at times that's not what matters to people that have not already chosen who they are voting for.
Obama needs to be careful because the GOP base is fired up this morning and even a few independents at my work place are feeling it.
sad state of affairs for politics.
Red Blaster
Member
Obama losing because he didn't call out Romney's lies well enough is Idiocracy becoming reality
Pretty much.
Sirpopopop
Member
It's always been reality.
Should George H.W. Bush have lost a debate because he simply looked at his watch during it?
Shrennin
Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
Monday, most likely. I expect around the same gain -- 1-2 points. The one that's gonna matter the most for Romney is the town hall one. If he wins that one, then the election could very well be his.
In the end, Romney clearly won this debate. Debates are all about showmanship; they always have been.
One thing I find about Romeny, based on video's etc, he seems to hate when people make it personal, pry or put his own antics on the spot. Call it crass if you will, but I really think if Obama touched on some of those 47% or tax rate points that have been making the rounds on the news, he might have thrown Romney off guard and put him off his game. Instead, he fed him more spoonfuls of confidence and let him run with it. Don't get me wrong, some of the stuff Obama was saying was highly relevant, but it often sounded like the kind of lecture you'd get from a school teacher who'd taught this same curriculum hundreds of times prior. Lacked confidence and passion.
Anyway, I'm hoping Obama brings a whole lot more in the next few rounds, because if he puts up another performance like this, I fear he may be leaving himself open for a Romney come back. Which is a frightening prospect tbh.
Anyone know how the debates affected poll numbers for Obama and Romney?
Anyway, I'm hoping Obama brings a whole lot more in the next few rounds, because if he puts up another performance like this, I fear he may be leaving himself open for a Romney come back. Which is a frightening prospect tbh.
Anyone know how the debates affected poll numbers for Obama and Romney?
reggieandTFE
Member
Blowing up the top of mountains killed off significantly more jobs than any environmental regulations and the free market policies pushed by the right say that government shouldn't be in the business of providing alternative job solutions.
Agreed. It was a poor, poor showing for Obama. I honestly didn't think Romney would control the debate as well as he did.
Mammoth Jones
Member
I completely agree Romney won. That's not what I'm arguing. The dude won. Romney went into this after 3 weeks of blunder after blunder and held his own. Mission Accomplished. Obama was passive the entire time and never went on offense and called Romney out on the plethora of stumbles, contradictions, flip-flops and flat out lies in the last few months.
So there are only two viable alternatives to explain why Obama didn't mention Bain Capital, Firing people when there, profitting from selling companies, the 47%, and his tax returns:
1. Either he and/or his team is so incompetent that it didn't occur to them to bring up those points and discuss them.
2. Or it's an intentional decision to not go on the hardcore offensive yet and save it for latter debates.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
What exactly are you basing this statement on? You do realize that the vast majority of coal mining in this region is not mountain-top removal, right? For example, in my time with my current company I have done no work whatsoever for a mountain-top removal operation.
It was a debate. People need to stop making excuses for Obama's lousy debate performance as if something unprecedented happened last night that has never happened before. Candidates try and portray themselves in the best light, Mitt Romney is more opportunistic than most but he is also more brittle and a competent and prepared debater could have dealt with him very well last night.
I'm not going to defend coal as a technology but I hope you have done your research on clean burning plants. Many of the "smoke" stacks you see are steam stacks used to cool kilns which burn the coal... the sediment is caught and refined into a substance called "flyash" which is then used as an additive in concrete. Without the additive, concrete becomes far more expensive since you can't use the additive to cut costs when you don't need a stronger mix. Nothing about coal is wasteful technology.
Some clean burning plants produce less contaminants in an entite year than a single motor-vehicle in that same timeframe.
These technologies are "bumper" technologies until we can find better, cleaner sources. They aren't the end-game.
Energy independence would create jobs and drive down consumer costs. If nobody can afford "new" energy - it will never come to pass.
Strengthening our foundation and becoming stronger financially is a needed first step. Believe me I'm all for cleaner alternatives - but we aren't in a place to start adopting these technologies with a buckling foundation.
Doing the best we can is always the better answer over "but we have good intentions" because wanting to and having the availability both financially and technically are two very different things and are not to be confused.
I wish I could just snap my fingers and make some new amazing energy source but it doesn't work like that. Baby steps, especially when an economy is stressed.
It sucks but its a road we will have to travel to strengthen the nation financially.
Fake edit: I don't talk much about politics or energy issues but I try to keep a realistic approach when it comes this sort of thing. I acknowledge current shitty technologies and want them gone as quick as the next... but I don't bit the hand that feeds until I find a new hand.
I'm all for new technology, fuck, I even use water-injection in one of my cars since burning a gallon of winter-grade winsdshield solvent gives me more power, better mileage and fewer emissions. I'm still not going to suggest we get rid of fossil fuels.
Shits going to take a while no matter what. Might as well strengthen the economy and get people back to work in the meantime.
Dreamcaster
Banned
Best summary of last night's debate:
Obama will do better in the next debate if Biden doesn't completely screw up the VP debate and tank the ticket.
RukusProvider
Banned
Romney wasn't great but Obama was outright bad. Thus Romney takes this round.
reggieandTFE
Member
Mountain top removal is significantly less labor intensive and requires a fraction of the workers in comparison to traditional less destructive mining. For an expert on the region, you don't seem to know much.
Red Blaster
Member
I'm not making excuses, Romney won by stupid presidential debate standards. But the current media narrative is straight out of Idiocracy.
AstroNut325
Member
I didn't watch... but from the posts on this page... Romney won? Was it zinger overload?
Punkster_NY
Member
Basically Romeny lied his ass off last night and he's paying for it this morning.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/10/04/14219336-the-triumph-of-style-over-substance?lite
And as it turns out, winning a debate is surprisingly easy when a candidate decides he can say anything and expect to get away with it.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/10/04/14219336-the-triumph-of-style-over-substance?lite
And as it turns out, winning a debate is surprisingly easy when a candidate decides he can say anything and expect to get away with it.
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I don't disagree with this statement; however, your previous assertion implies that the current state of the industry is a result of previously performed mountain-top removal which I see absolutely no evidence for. The biggest factors contributing to the current steam coal market are cheap natural gas and over-regulation. Also, see my edit on the post you quoted.
And I never claimed to be an expert on the region.
POWERSPHERE
Member
I only saw this for a bit, but was surprised as to how badly Obama was talking during his Health Care defence.
reggieandTFE
Member
Well, I'm not going to debate someone who surely has a friends of coal sticker on the back of their suv. Your company probably hasn't done much mountain top removal lately because you've blown up all the close ones over the last 20 years.
gutter_trash
Banned
don't turn PBS into a TLC.
within 15 years, The Learning Channel went from educational content to Midgets, Child Pageants and Honey Boo Boo
The_Darkest_Red
Member
I drive a 2001 Nissan Sentra with 265,000 miles on it because I don't have a lot of extra money and it gets good gas mileage (35 mpg ain't too shabby for something so old). I don't have a friends of coal sticker, either.
I still don't see any evidence for the claims you're making. There are plenty of untapped reserves left to be mined in this region, it just isn't possible to mine most of them at a profit currently. There are also countless mountains remaining in this area, but the fact that I even have to say that tells me that you haven't spent much (if any) time here.
Red Blaster
Member
Romney controlled the flow while lying out of his ass and much of the angst is over Obama being slow with his cadence and not calling him out on said bullshit.
Also Jim Lehrer was fucking terrible.
Dreamcaster
Banned
What is the topic of the next debate? I believe the last one is foreign policy, which, in light of the Benghazi disaster and Obama's "bump in the road" comment, I see Romney having just as many points of attack as he did on the economy.
I think Obama will step it up in two weeks - he has to.
Romney was able to counter and couch Obama's analysis as false because, frankly, they are just proposals, few details have been given, and ultimately he has to work with Congress to develop whatever the final solutions will be. That is one of the advantages a challenger has - his ideas can evolve and be be left purposely nebulous to fend off attacks. The challenge and incumbent has is that he has an actual record to defend - there is no dispute on the number of people out of work, the increase in people on food stamps, and the money pissed away on "green energy" (not that I believe Romney would support using that $90B to hire 2M more teachers).
I think Obama will step it up in two weeks - he has to.
Romney was able to counter and couch Obama's analysis as false because, frankly, they are just proposals, few details have been given, and ultimately he has to work with Congress to develop whatever the final solutions will be. That is one of the advantages a challenger has - his ideas can evolve and be be left purposely nebulous to fend off attacks. The challenge and incumbent has is that he has an actual record to defend - there is no dispute on the number of people out of work, the increase in people on food stamps, and the money pissed away on "green energy" (not that I believe Romney would support using that $90B to hire 2M more teachers).
ErasureAcer
Banned
Probably needs it's own thread but Romney appears to have cheated in last night's debate.
On his first question I noticed he was looking down and reading which was quite strange as I hadn't seen him write anything down. He definitely takes something out of his pocket and puts it on the podium.
On his first question I noticed he was looking down and reading which was quite strange as I hadn't seen him write anything down. He definitely takes something out of his pocket and puts it on the podium.
Much appreciated.
partime
Member
linked to far-left website; yeah okay.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
A post by Rachel Maddow means nothing to the Romney campaign. It would be like Sean Hannity "exposing the lies" of Obama.
Punkster_NY
Member
another source because politifact has a been a bitch sketchy lately.
http://factcheck.org/2012/10/dubious-denver-debate-declarations/
hydragonwarrior
Member
Irregardless, a lot of this is based on performance - even if the facts don't add up.
So it stands as Romney-1, Obama-0. That being said, now there's even MORE pressure on Obama for the second debate to turn things around in his favor. But it's going to be an agonizing 2 weeks lol...
So it stands as Romney-1, Obama-0. That being said, now there's even MORE pressure on Obama for the second debate to turn things around in his favor. But it's going to be an agonizing 2 weeks lol...
Dreamcaster
Banned
I actually noticed that as it happened. Not sure what the protocol is.
Really? What's been the issue?
Are they not allowed to take notes in with them? Because it definitely looked like he slipped in a notepad with him lol.
ErasureAcer
Banned
They have the video in question. Forget the comments. Watch the video.
I agree the media can be hysterical, childish, and not interested in doing their jobs but both democrats and republicans have benefited from how a televised debate works. Presentation is simply part of the game. Lets be real here, if Obama had won on style last night most people in this thread wouldn't have cared and would be celebrating right now. He was just plain bad, there is no other way to say it. Almost any run of the mill democratic politician could have done a better job than he did last night. Anyways all we can do know is hope that the job numbers were good and that should cancel out any momentum Romney gained. I do think the second debate will go much better.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
I swear I saw a diffrerent debate. I guess you can say that the president wasn't amped up, but in terms of actual content, I think the president had a much more compelling case. It seems like Romney won only on style but not on substance and that is typical of US politics. I guess we'll just have to see how debate two turns out.
The Dark One
The Dark One
sorry but maddow is in no way similar to hannity.
Punkster_NY
Member
if you don't like that source then take your pick
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics
obama already has an ad out. lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZniwrAwZGY
I believe they're allowed to take notes during the debate to write down counter-arguments.
The Lamonster
Member
Exactly how I feel. But whatever, if this country wants to elect Romney then they deserve everything that's coming.
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