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[DY_nasty]

If you're small, you're small. Sucks but damn... its a legit knock.

KG plays more in the 4 position than 5. His limitations on gaurding Big 5s are his size not because of his prowess on defense.

Whatever you call it, skill, size, or proficiency, or whatever... he simply wasn't as good in the post against 4s and 5s - which is his primary responsiblity.

He was an outstanding help defender and allowed for some of the most unique zone configurations I've ever seen in the NBA. I love KG, but I'm not going to ever say he was a better 1 on 1 defender than TD. And that should always be what counts first and most - you're ability to guard someone of the same position 1 on 1.

 

[Blackace]

Bigs have a much larger impact on defense than wings. Please don't list wings or you look absolutely insane.

And you guys have such an irrational hard-on for Hakeem that I'm not even going to bother. I'll take top 2 modern era defense if thats what would make you guys happy.

Really you have such inane hate for dream it is silly...

TD is damn close to the top tho.. no doubt..
in no true order
Dream, Mountain, Russell, TD, KG

true game changing wings on D were MJ, Pippen, GP, Stock

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Yes, because KG was small not because he sucked on defense. C'mon people.

i would agree that tim in his prime was a far better post defender than kg.
every other aspect is debatable.

 

[charsace]

Yes, because KG was small not because he sucked on defense. C'mon people.

But that was a limitation KG had. 5's and rugged 4's could work him on the block. I would rather have the big man that's better at post defense and blowing up the pick and roll than the one that's better at guarding the perimeter.

Really you have such inane hate for dream it is silly...

TD is damn close to the top tho.. no doubt..
in no true order
Dream, Mountain, Russell, TD, KG

true game changing wings on D were MJ, Pippen, GP, Stock

And Frazier and Moncrief. Jordan even said Moncrief used to molest him on the court. He was witness.

 

[DY_nasty]

Would you call Tony allen a good defensive player?

As good as Tony Allen is, his value could never be more than solid defensive big....

 

[Syphon Filter]

holiday beastin.

 

[Blackace]

He gets high off vicodin.

ahh that's right he has a House problem..

why do you insinuate others not sharing your opinions must be sniffing paint?
it doesn't bother me that others may see differently.

It's when people can't see the plain facts is when I start thinking outside forces are at work

 

[Knux-Future]

is Jrue finally gonna have two good halves?


holy shit

 

[Emwitus]

Whatever you call it, skill, size, or proficiency, or whatever... he simply wasn't as good in the post against 4s and 5s - which is his primary responsiblity.

He was an outstanding help defender and allowed for some of the most unique zone configurations I've ever seen in the NBA. I love KG, but I'm not going to ever say he was a better 1 on 1 defender than TD. And that should always be what counts first and most - you're ability to guard someone of the same position 1 on 1.

KG was good in gaurding 5s and 4s who didn't weigh wildly more than he did and could over power him.....So does that mean he sucked on defense? People forget he was the best defensive play on arguably the best defensive team of all time(2008 celtics)

 

[DY_nasty]

KG was good in gaurding 5s and 4s who didn't weigh wildly more than he did and could over power him.....So does that mean he sucked on defense? People forget he was the best defensive play on arguably the best defensive team of all time(2008 celtics)

Keep calm and be the leaf.

Nobody said that.

Also, 2008 covers one year. That wasn't even his best year as a defender either...

 

[Boombloxer]

Really you have such inane hate for dream it is silly...

TD is damn close to the top tho.. no doubt..
in no true order
Dream, Mountain, Russell, TD, KG

true game changing wings on D were MJ, Pippen, GP, Stock

It's actually quite justified.

 

[Emwitus]

As good as Tony Allen is, his value could never be more than solid defensive big....

Really? Are you freaking kidding me? So if a player can shut down someone like kobe or lebron or paul his value is less than someone like shaq or Td. LOL

 

[Blackace]

Whatever you call it, skill, size, or proficiency, or whatever... he simply wasn't as good in the post against 4s and 5s - which is his primary responsiblity.

He was an outstanding help defender and allowed for some of the most unique zone configurations I've ever seen in the NBA. I love KG, but I'm not going to ever say he was a better 1 on 1 defender than TD. And that should always be what counts first and most - you're ability to guard someone of the same position 1 on 1.

I could see it now..

"Well Weber got off..but did you see me shut down Peja the 5 times I took him!!"

Flip drinks from the Jack bottle straight

 

[Emwitus]

I could see it now..

"Well Weber got off..but did you see me shut down Peja the 5 times I took him!!"

Flip drinks from the Jack bottle straight

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

 

[giri]

Really you have such inane hate for dream it is silly...

TD is damn close to the top tho.. no doubt..
in no true order
Dream, Mountain, Russell, TD, KG

true game changing wings on D were MJ, Pippen, GP, Stock

Amare should be on that list.

Spoiler

no one else has let so many others be so freeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Knux-Future]

Rose is smiling...that's how you know something is wrong.

 

[Blackace]

Really? Are you freaking kidding me? So if a player can shut down someone like kobe or lebron or paul his value is less than someone like shaq or Td. LOL

well tell me a wing who could shut down another wing like that on the normal...

A lot of bigs can shut down other bigs in head2head... can't really be said about wings..

 

[DY_nasty]

Hawks falling apart lolz

Really? Are freaking kidding me? So if a player can shut down someone like kobe or lebron or paul his value is less than someone like shaq or Td. LOL

You're showing a lack of fundamental bball knowledge... all it takes is one screen to fuck Tony Allen, or any perimeter, to hell and back. Without bigs behind them, those wings lose over half of their ability to defend a player.

A big is infinitely more valuable because they're the ones that stop pick and rolls and rotate for help forcing the offensive players to certain areas of court while remaining behind the initial defender.

 

[Blackace]

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

........................................

 

[DY_nasty]

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

smh

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Really? Are you freaking kidding me? So if a player can shut down someone like kobe or lebron or paul his value is less than someone like shaq or Td. LOL

Tony Allen with a bunch of other good defenders can't get his team to top 5 in defense.

Guys like Bogut or Dwight can get their teams to top 5 defensively without much help.

I love KG, but I'm not going to ever say he was a better 1 on 1 defender than TD. And that should always be what counts first and most - you're ability to guard someone of the same position 1 on 1.

I really don't know if that matters that much for centers now. Noah always seems to be a pretty crappy post defender but it doesn't matter because there's like six centers in the NBA who can create a shot. Obviously a positive for Duncan though.

 

[Emwitus]

Hawks falling apart lolz
You're showing a lack of fundamental knowledge... all it takes is one screen to fuck Tony Allen, or any perimeter, to hell and back.

A big is infinitely more valuable because they're the ones that stop pick and rolls and rotate for help forcing the offensive players to certain areas of court while remaining behind the initial defender.

You have to be kidding me....so since you can counter allen he is less important on a team? So if a point gaurd can penetrate the paint and drop a ball to another big if one big tries to block him that should make his value less? Or if he is boxed out or screened? Do you know stockton is an all time defensive player? Or even Jordan?

 

[Herpes Reasons]

ahh that's right he has a House problem..

It's when people can't see the plain facts is when I start thinking outside forces are at work

house is my idol. i met him once at a film festival.
quite the gentlement.
and facts, truth and opinions are interchangeable in some arguments.
this is no exception.

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

lol

 

[Zep]

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

 

[Knux-Future]

Tony Allen with a bunch of other good defenders can't get his team to top 5 in defense.

Guys like Bogut or Dwight can get their teams to top 5 defensively without much help.

Preach.


Shit, Iggy locks dudes down and we barely made the playoffs due to our bigs being charmin soft

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

 

[Blackace]

house is my idol. i met him once at a film festival.
quite the gentlement.
and facts, truth and opinions are interchangeable in some arguments.
this is no exception.

actually they really aren't by the definitions of the words..

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Kevin Garnett was such a good defensive anchor that his teams were consistently mediocre to straight up bad on D. He never had a team ranked higher than 6th in defensive rating; they were usually in the high teens actually.

Meanwhile, Tim Duncan-led teams were literally top of the league for over a decade. All statistical measurements put those teams as among the best all time, with the 99, 03, 04, 05, 06, and 07 having particularly legendary defensive numbers. Tim Duncan is currently ranked 6th in defensive win shares, but easily on pace to finish 2nd (only behind Russell). He will likely finish 2nd in playoff defensive win shares as well (behind Russell). Kevin Garnett isn't in the playoff top 30.

But go on tell me how much faster Garnett is laterally than Duncan because you've only watched Duncan at the tail-end of his career..

Spoiler

i'm not saying that KG is bad on defense. hes actually one of the best all-time as well. but your dismissal of Duncan is absurd. No player in the modern era has had the consistent defensive output Duncan teams have had...

 

[Chichikov]

Yes, because KG was small not because he sucked on defense. C'mon people.

Garnett is taller than Duncan (he even gave him crap about it once, in seriously one of the lamest trash talking attempts in history, even for that punk) and they both weigh about the same.

But yeah, Garnett has a size problem, in his balls, which are tiny, so he's a little bitch.
No team built around that punk have ever achieved anything (2008 is on Pierce).
Comparing the two is a joke.
On defense, offense or anywhere else.

 

[Black Mamba]

Bigs have a much larger impact on defense than wings. Please don't list wings or you look absolutely insane.

I don't disagree with that. But that's a result of being big. That doesn't mean a wing defender couldn't be better despite having a lesser impact.

Bigs have bigger impacts on the game no matter what.

 

[Emwitus]

Tony Allen with a bunch of other good defenders can't get his team to top 5 in defense.

Guys like Bogut or Dwight can get their teams to top 5 defensively without much help.

Every single defensive player needs help buddy. And Dwight and Bogut don't get a team to top 5 without any help....seriously. He is a big part but he doesn't do it himself. Case in point again, Boston celtics 2008 are considered the best defensive team of all time.

 

[Emwitus]

Kevin Garnett was such a good defensive anchor that his teams were consistently mediocre to straight up bad on D. He never had a team ranked higher than 6th in defensive rating; they were usually in the high teens actually.

Meanwhile, Tim Duncan-led teams were literally top of the league for over a decade. All statistical measurements put those teams as among the best all time, with the 99, 03, 04, 05, 06, and 07 having particularly legendary defensive numbers. Tim Duncan is currently ranked 6th in defensive win shares, but easily on pace to finish 2nd (only behind Russell). He will likely finish 2nd in playoff defensive win shares as well (behind Russell). Kevin Garnett isn't in the playoff top 30.

But go on tell me how much faster Garnett is laterally than Duncan because you've only watched Duncan at the tail-end of his career..

Spoiler

i'm not saying that KG is bad on defense. hes actually one of the best all-time as well. but your dismissal of Duncan is absurd. No player in the modern era has had the consistent defensive output Duncan teams have had...

Again, he run one of the best defensive teams of all time in 2008.

 

[SoulPlaya]

What can Boozer do if they don't run any plays for him?

 

[Zep]

Tony Allen with a bunch of other good defenders can't get his team to top 5 in defense.

Didn't Miami do that in 2008 or 2009 with no good bigs and Wade as their best defender?

 

[DY_nasty]

You have to be kidding me....so since you can counter allen he is less important on a team? So if a point gaurd can penetrate the paint and drop a ball to another big if one big tries to block him that should make his value less? Or if he is boxed out or screened? Do you know stockton is an all time defensive player? Or even Jordan?

Look at what IWMTB just posted.

One wing player is NEVER going to elevate his entire team's defense up to the top 5 in the league. Gerald Wallace was one of only 3 guys in the league's entire history to average 2 blocks and 2 steals per game and the Bobcats defense wasn't even in the top half of the league.

Meanwhile, Dwight can make Jameer and Hedo look like an average defenders.

 

[Levyne]

I go to do dishes at halftime, comeback to see the third quarter of 19-6.

yee

 

[Herpes Reasons]

actually they really aren't by the definitions of the words..

not by definition, but the context used in arguments.
like in your said argument.
you said TD was the best defensive player in their runs,
and i reckon it was bruce bowen.
you also argued it as fact, which im arguing is opinion.

 

[charsace]

So you are comparing KG shutting down gasol to webber shutting down peja? OK.

You trolling right?

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Hawks falling apart lolz
You're showing a lack of fundamental bball knowledge... all it takes is one screen to fuck Tony Allen, or any perimeter, to hell and back. Without bigs behind them, those wings lose over half of their ability to defend a player.

A big is infinitely more valuable because they're the ones that stop pick and rolls and rotate for help forcing the offensive players to certain areas of court while remaining behind the initial defender.

I was debating Pek's value on a Wolves board a few days ago. I was trying to make the argument that, even though Pek is a great offensive option, he isn't the optimal fit for Love as he isn't much of a rim protector (short arms, short height, kinda slow, etc).

I was then told that I was overvaluing the impact of having a rim protecting big man, and that simply adding a few great defensive wings would make the problem go away.

I know, I know, Memphis, but still...I think people were missing some basic fundamentals.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Case in point again, Boston celtics 2008 are considered the best defensive team of all time.

No.

They are not.

Spoiler

very good, but not the best

 

[SoulPlaya]

I hate this thread when there are no West conf games going on, lol.

 

[Knux-Future]

Didn't Miami do that in 2008 or 2009 with no good bigs and Wade as their best defender?

Fat Shaq took up enough space.

That was close enough.

 

[Emwitus]

Oh wow celtics.

 

[giri]

Every single defensive player needs help buddy. And Dwight and Bogut don't get a team to top 5 without any help....seriously. He is a big part but he doesn't do it himself. Case in point again, Boston celtics 2008 are considered the best defensive team of all time.

They are?

 

[Blackace]

not by definition, but the context used in arguments.
like in your said argument.
you said TD was the best defensive player in their runs,
and i reckon it was bruce bowen.
you also argued it as fact, which im arguing is opinion.

it's a fact that bowen wasn't a great defender until he played with TD..It is an opinion that playing with TD allowed him to be ultra aggressive and kick guys in the face

 

[DY_nasty]

They are?

ESPN says so!

 

[Knux-Future]

go off yourself Iggy

 

[Emwitus]

No.

They are not.

Spoiler

very good, but not the best

Check you're facts at the door.

 

[Zep]

Fat Shaq took up enough space.

That was close enough.

He wasn't with Miami at the point...He was already traded to Phoenix.

 

[Chichikov]

They are?

I'm pretty sure Bill Simmons think that.
But no, not normal people, at least no one I met.