The Frankman
Banned
Evan more dan the Knicks' Offense Meestah Dy_Nasty?
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2012 NBA Playoffs |OT2| OKC VS LA: Black on Black Crime
- Thread starter reilo
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If you and TC had been around, you'd have seen me shit on the Pacers all season long.
Every game.
They're the only thing I hate more than Lebron's double headband.
...even more than the No. 4 pick?
Iso-ball is going to be around forever. It makes sweeps fun and interesting.Evan more dan the Knicks' Offense Meestah Dy_Nasty?
Shit happens. I'll get over that eventually....even more than the No. 4 pick?
Seeing that brand of basketball win though? Fucking heresy.
The Frankman
Banned
oh COME ON SUPREME1! I didn't want to say anything so I didn't post that!...even more than the No. 4 pick?
Where are you getting those stats from?
Basketball Reference
Pacers had the 13th highest team PPG. While being the 10th best at giving up points. That is why they are not 'terrible'
Pacers record vs the amazing Western conference they can't beat:
...
13-5
!?
Jessie Rogers just got a shitty boob job too? fml
Its fucking ugly.
Jessie Rogers just got a shitty boob job too? fml
Dude, get back to me about the shit I just specifically talked about. And all of it is common, game to game stuff too.Basketball Reference
Pacers had the 13th highest team PPG. While being the 10th best at giving up points. That is why they are not 'terrible'
Pacers record vs the amazing Western conference they can't beat:
...
13-5
Its fucking ugly.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Does anyone say that it's terrible? And has no tempo? And is ugly?
Does it even matter? The Pacers are clearly above average. League Average oRTG: 104.6 Again, Pacers 106.7
People don't know shit about the Pacers and it's obvious. It's what happens when you're a small-market team without a superstar. And people use small samples of watching to judge the team as a whole. It just gets a little annoying when you see so many people being flat out wrong.
People are arguing that their offense is hideous and they're right.
Do you recognize being swept in the finals is the best case scenario for Indy?
No I do not. I don't necessarily believe they even get to the Finals. But I also don't believe any team sweeps them either. Even as the lowly 8 seed last year the Bulls couldn't sweep them.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Basketball Reference
Pacers had the 13th highest team PPG. While being the 10th best at giving up points. That is why they are not 'terrible'
Pacers record vs the amazing Western conference they can't beat:
...
13-5
please stick around beyond this round, please.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
No I do not. I don't necessarily believe they even get to the Finals. But I also don't believe any team sweeps them either. Even as the lowly 8 seed last year the Bulls couldn't sweep them.
And that Bulls team didn't make it to the finals so...
Prototype-03
Member
No I do not. I don't necessarily believe they even get to the Finals. But I also don't believe any team sweeps them either. Even as the lowly 8 seed last year the Bulls couldn't sweep them.
Well, I'll give you that Indy has gone a lot farther than what a lot of people expected them to go. However, if you believe that they did it because they are good, you are DEAD wrong.
If you don't know why, I have no idea what to tell you.
Basketball Reference
Pacers had the 13th highest team PPG. While being the 10th best at giving up points. That is why they are not 'terrible'
Pacers record vs the amazing Western conference they can't beat:
...
13-5
They're actually tied for 8th in Offensive Rating. Behind the Clippers and Chicago.
Not a great measure of how pretty your offense is, especially since the last fuckball coach, JVG, managed to reach that same spot.
And that Bulls team didn't make it to the finals so...
So that means absolutely nothing. Besides providing a point why I don't think anyone will sweep them.
Having fun guys?
They're actually tied for 8th in Offensive Rating. Behind the Clippers and Chicago.
Not a great measure of how pretty your offense is, especially since the last fuckball coach, JVG, managed to reach that same spot.
I don't get it. Why does the offense have to be pretty? I'm just saying they score more than they give up, way more often than not. I don't recall ever saying that it's pretty, only that I like it.
Would it be prettier if they had 2 superstars to throw alley-oops to each other? I don't think they can pull that one off.
5th best record in league while in the East - when the East primarily plays itself in a lockout year is nothing to brag about.
My issue is with the actual product on the court. Fuckball.
What about routinely bringing Hibbet 18 feet out to set screens makes sense? Why does Vogel insist on making all of Collison and George's best qualities as players worthless in his system? Why don't they move Danny Granger off-ball as he's still a Carmelo-esque mismatch for most of the league? Why is Barbosa playing dumber now than he has in his entire career? Why do they have some of the shittiest spacing in the entire league even though they have a host of shooters? Why do they top the league in fouls committed and fouls received?
Offensive rating will never explain why this Indiana team has been together for years and the guards still don't know how what to do after a fastbreak layup opportunity suddenly isn't available. They can't do simple shit right. They actively limit their own scoring opportunities many times JUST to fuck up the game. Vogel will sit in a huddle and scream "championship passing!" then sit back and watch as his team can't exploit Roy Hibbet on Glen Davis.
The actual product on the court is obviously, factually good, but...
I'm glad you're asking these questions. I have my issues w/ Vogel. I think he's much more of a motivator than a coach, but I do think he's learned a bit (at the very least, he's not making the horrendous substitutions he was earlier), and he had the balls to bench Collison, who really, really needed to be 2nd string from the beginning of the season. DC's defense went from pathetic to inspired as a result.
The Hibbert screening stuff is dumb, no argument. He got shoved around by Glen Davis because he's tall, not strong.
Collison's best qualities are what? He's a solid spot up shooter and a good finisher on the fast break. He's a horrible passer on the break, and he hasn't played well off the pick and roll since his flash in the pan performances in New Orleans. He's a very good backup, but as a starter dude does not have the vision to cut it as a pass-first or the body to endure as a score-first. He keeps the ball on the fast break 99.9% of the time, which is why the off guards don't even bother anymore.
Danny Granger plays how he wants to play. He's been handling the ball, regardless of coach, since he got in the league. I don't like it, and I agree with your point there...though Lebron's defense is mostly responsible for him not getting good looks.
Barbosa is the de facto slasher, and I'd rather have him doing that than hoisting 3s so the Heat can start the fast break. The only area he's playing dumb(er) in now would be on defense, but he was always a matador.
Their spacing sucks because George Hill and Lance Stephenson are the best dribble/penetrate guys on the team and Stephenson is the best playmaker....that is the glaring issue. Paul George has pretty good vision but he needs to improve his handles to get around above average defenders.
They foul a lot because they play aggressive/tough (what you call ugly)and flopping is rewarded in the NBA.
They're a matchup nightmare for the Heat w/o Bosh because they're better at 3 of the 5 starting positions, and the bench isn't even close. Paul George's defense affects one of the Heat's 2 advantages. If they get past the Heat, the offense will flow better against the Celtics.
I don't get it. Why does the offense have to be pretty? I'm just saying they score more than they give up, way more often than not. I don't recall ever saying that it's pretty, only that I like it.
Would it be prettier if they had 2 superstars to throw alley-oops to each other? I don't think they can pull that one off.
You like it because you're a fan of the Pacers (for the playoffs). We're basketball fans. We like to watch basketball.
A series lead and The Pacer fans act like Indy are contenders. Wow.
Do not lump me in with tc farks.
Prototype-03
Member
Do not lump me in with tc farks.
We got Pacers bandwagoners now? Wow.
lol
Well, I'll give you that Indy has gone a lot farther than what a lot of people expected them to go. However, if you believe that they did it because they are good, you are DEAD wrong.
If you don't know why, I have no idea what to tell you.
This has got to be the worst post ever. 64% win pctg doesn't even get you good, and without explanation.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Yep.You like it because you're a fan of the Pacers (for the playoffs). We're basketball fans. We like to watch basketball.
Grover Cleveland
Member
Apparently Mario Chalmers picked up a little wrist boo-boo last night (x-rays are negative, to be re-evaluated today).
Heat built-in excuse for losing Game 4 is ready to go.
Heat built-in excuse for losing Game 4 is ready to go.
You like it because you're a fan of the Pacers (for the playoffs). We're basketball fans. We like to watch basketball.
So a lot of people hated watching the Spurs and Pistons too. It's so boooring. If you don't enjoy that brand of basketball, it doesn't mean anything outside your personal taste, and is completely irrelevant to what actually constitutes basketball.
There's a difference between being ugly and effective. Despite the way they do it, the Pacers can put up a lot of points. It's why they were an above-average offense in the league. Combined with a very good defense, they are not terrible. And are built to be feisty in the playoffs. People underestimated them, and even want them to be irrelevant, it's annoying to some to see them take down the superstars of the NBA who play a prettier brand of basketball.
I've never said the Pacers would beat the Spurs, or OKC in a series. But they could. And to say they would just get swept and laughed at is a statement with no merit. There's nothing to suggest that would be the case besides bias. I saw the Pacers take down the Thunder live earlier this year. They're not outclassed by anyone to that extent.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
Pacers are good, but not good enough to get out the weak east, if they do OKC or SAS will slap their shit pretty easily. Spurs don't give in to fuckball and OKC may just embrace it.
In reality Indy fans should still be concerned about putting away The Heat.
Sorry giggle sir, I didn't mean to demean you sir.
In reality Indy fans should still be concerned about putting away The Heat.
Sorry giggle sir, I didn't mean to demean you sir.
Pacers are good, but not good enough to get out the weak east, if they do OKC or SAS will slap their shit pretty easily. Spurs don't give in to fuckball and OKC may just embrace it.
In reality Indy fans should still be concerned about putting away The Heat.
Sorry giggle sir, I didn't mean to demean you sir.
I agree with everything you wrote. And no hard feelings.
I'm not a bandwagoner. I've followed this team since I was a kid. I just don't post very often, and almost never in here. And I don't believe they're series favorites. Just that they have a strong chance in each series they will play, because they are not terrible.
If it's enjoyable for you to take and run off with what I say. Knock yourselves out.
If it's enjoyable for you to take and run off with what I say. Knock yourselves out.
Pickles the Firecat
Banned
!?
Jessie Rogers just got a shitty boob job too? fml
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I'm not a bandwagoner. I've followed this team since I was a kid. I just don't post very often, and almost never in here. And I don't believe they're series favorites. Just that they have a strong chance in each series they will play, because they are not terrible.
If it's enjoyable for you to take and run off with what I say. Knock yourselves out.
Almost everyone here wants The Pacers to win the series and they're probably the most likable team left in the playoffs. Some guys are making fools of themselves by switching to Indy avatars.
People are just reporting on what they see on the court. Pacers just aren't contenders.
Prototype-03
Member
This has got to be the worst post ever. 64% win pctg doesn't even get you good, and without explanation.
Well okay, you have a point. I may have jumped the gun without thinking and worded a little weirdly. I didn't say that they weren't good, but I was making a point about making it this far BECAUSE they were better than the other team. I thought that the 1st round was skewed because Rose and Noah went down, which doesn't necessarily mean that Indy was the better team overall.
Almost everyone here wants The Pacers to win the series and they're probably the most likable team left in the playoffs. Some guys are making fools of themselves by switching to Indy avatars.
People are just reporting on what they see on the court. Pacers just aren't contenders.
I completely agree with this.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
Almost everyone here wants The Pacers to win the series and they're probably the most likable team left in the playoffs. Some guys are making fools of themselves by switching to Indy avatars.
People are just reporting on what they see on the court. Pacers just aren't contenders.
Yep. Though I am more of a Heat fan and will guarantee they win the series and the championship.
People are just reporting on what they see on the court. Pacers just aren't contenders.
The baseless trolling got him. It's like when I would get on Heat "fans" (they don't really exist) during the regular season when the Pacers won...the response was usually "what the fuck is there to do in Indiana? fuck that state." ...such argumentative skillz.
Collison was one of the best point guard prospects in the league before he got tainted by that fuckball offense.The actual product on the court is obviously, factually good, but...
I'm glad you're asking these questions. I have my issues w/ Vogel. I think he's much more of a motivator than a coach, but I do think he's learned a bit (at the very least, he's not making the horrendous substitutions he was earlier), and he had the balls to bench Collison, who really, really needed to be 2nd string from the beginning of the season. DC's defense went from pathetic to inspired as a result.
He'd get a lot more rebounds and generally keep guys like Barbosa sane if he were reliably in one area of the court. He doesn't have the versatility to float.The Hibbert screening stuff is dumb, no argument. He got shoved around by Glen Davis because he's tall, not strong.
Collison has wasted more possessions than Haslem this series because there is zero offensive flow to the game. He comes down the court and because at least two people or more at a time are completely lost, he doesn't have a set to get into and he ends up dribbling around in no man's land and throwing up some YNB shit. Its a gift wrapped possession. Back in New Orleans, with freedom, he had no issue establishing tempo and creating for an entire offense. Now? He doesn't even look functional most of the time - like the rest of the team excluding West and Hibbet.Collison's best qualities are what? He's a solid spot up shooter and a good finisher on the fast break. He's a horrible passer on the break, and he hasn't played well off the pick and roll since his flash in the pan performances in New Orleans. He's a very good backup, but as a starter dude does not have the vision to cut it as a pass-first or the body to endure as a score-first. He keeps the ball on the fast break 99.9% of the time, which is why the off guards don't even bother anymore.
I can't tell if Granger is being ignored, if he's ignoring the rest of the team, or if he's generally disinterested. Either way, his issues have gone on for the last two years - not just since LBJ started guarding him. He's got all the ability he needs to be a perennial all-star and #1 option. He isn't though. And its for a multitude of reasons ranging from being used poorly and not having the right attitude.Danny Granger plays how he wants to play. He's been handling the ball, regardless of coach, since he got in the league. I don't like it, and I agree with your point there...though Lebron's defense is mostly responsible for him not getting good looks.
Barbosa can't function as a slasher because Vogel doesn't know how to use one properly. Hill and Collison slash from a different position 9 out of 10 times, so they KNOW as they've played that position most of their life (and on functioning teams). Barbosa doesn't recognize defenses - okay. But he doesn't recognize his own offense either. He's a poor man's Crawford playing in a wannabe Larry Brown's system. When he slashes he's going to ALWAYS do one of two things: 1) miss a wide open man 2) call for a screen when he shouldn't be calling for a screen. Unless he makes the difficultfornoreason shot, he's shooting that team in the foot.Barbosa is the de facto slasher, and I'd rather have him doing that than hoisting 3s so the Heat can start the fast break. The only area he's playing dumb(er) in now would be on defense, but he was always a matador.
Their spacing sucks because they don't know what it is. It goes from their lineups on the court to the sets they run. Its impossible to have good spacing when you've Hibbet consistently stepping 18 ft out where the big doesn't have to guard him. Its also a self-defeating move the way they use Amundson and Hansborough in tandem. Its redundant and stupid. A simple notion like having someone sit in the corner and having Hibbet stay his ass on the block keeps the floor from being cluttered - yet, Vogel would rather have West and Hibbet attempt to occupy the same spot where Collison and Hill have 3 guys in their face right off the bat in some shitty attempt at Horns or something.Their spacing sucks because George Hill and Lance Stephenson are the best dribble/penetrate guys on the team and Stephenson is the best playmaker....that is the glaring issue. Paul George has pretty good vision but he needs to improve his handles to get around above average defenders.
No, they're stupid. Amundson and Hansborough almost singlehandedly put the Heat in the bonus in game 1 and Dahntay can't control himself. Never has. Granger loves to quit on D when he's beat and George loves to overthink shit. Hill should know better as well - but he still thinks he's a bench goon.They foul a lot because they play aggressive/tough (what you call ugly)and flopping is rewarded in the NBA.
nothing flows in fuckballThey're a matchup nightmare for the Heat w/o Bosh because they're better at 3 of the 5 starting positions, and the bench isn't even close. Paul George's defense affects one of the Heat's 2 advantages. If they get past the Heat, the offense will flow better against the Celtics.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I get what people are saying about the Pacers not being contenders.
All I've said is they have a chance against anyone, because they're not a bad team, and their ugly basketball has proven to work in the playoffs before. It is NOT my fault that others thrive in hyperbole.
Well, every team has a chance. The bobcats have a chance at a top 3 pick but everybody knows #4 is their destiny.
Well, every team has a chance. The bobcats have a chance at a top 3 pick but everybody knows #4 is their destiny.
There are degrees of chance. The Pacers are proving that now, after everyone expected them to be mowed over.
I guess I should have said good, or strong, or something.
I get what people are saying about the Pacers not being contenders.
All I've said is they have a chance against anyone, because they're not a bad team, and their ugly basketball has proven to work in the playoffs before. It is NOT my fault that others thrive in hyperbole.
Gigglepoo said pretty much the exact same thing you're saying a couple weeks ago, but didn't get jumped on because he wasn't obnoxious about it. Fuckball keeps you in games you shouldn't be in and gives you a chance to win at the end. That's why JVG will always have a job waiting for him in the NBA.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
There are degrees of chance. The Pacers are proving that now, after everyone expected them to be mowed over.
... they would have been mowed over if Bosh was playing...
marathonfool
Member
It's hard to watch the Pacer guards do all kinds of dumb things on the court. Making bad entry passes, shooting early on the clock, gambling on defense, and throwing up prayers at the rim.
Pacers are leading the series because West and Hibbert are controlling the paint. The guards are a complete mess.
Pacers are leading the series because West and Hibbert are controlling the paint. The guards are a complete mess.
Basketball Reference
Pacers had the 13th highest team PPG. While being the 10th best at giving up points. That is why they are not 'terrible'
Pacers record vs the amazing Western conference they can't beat:
...
13-5
Already addressed.
Do you know every Eastern conference team play 12 Western teams once, and 3 Western teams twice? Do you know who the Pacers played twice? Let me tell you: Golden State, Sacramento, New Orleans.
That's right, the 3 worst Western conference teams, and surely they took that 6 games.
They had the easiest schedule in the league, considering the Western conference won 58% of their games against the East.
There are degrees of chance. The Pacers are proving that now, after everyone expected them to be mowed over.
They only have a chance this round because Bosh got hurt and Wade and LeBron are mentally weak. They only lambasted the Magic because Howard got hurt, though I think that series would have at least been close if everyone was healthy.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
That was before Bosh got hurt.There are degrees of chance. The Pacers are proving that now, after everyone expected them to be mowed over.
I guess I should have said good, or strong, or something.
Gigglepoo said pretty much the exact same thing you're saying a couple weeks ago, but didn't get jumped on because he wasn't obnoxious about it. Fuckball keeps you in games you shouldn't be in and gives you a chance to win at the end. That's why JVG will always have a job waiting for him in the NBA.
I've stated statistical facts and defended pointless descriptions. People want to be able to say they're terrible and not be shown statistical evidence to the contrary, so they can carry on whatever bias they currently have. I'm no troll, yet I've been called a band-wagoner and obnoxious. Whatever.
DY_nasty, Collison was benched for two very obvious reasons, which I think I posted earlier. One, his defense was atrocious. Two, his court vision is weak. There's no two ways about it. His NO performances were a flash in the pan.
There was a fine article written during his time in NO where they questioned (and then dug into) whether and why he was wrongly credited on so many of his assists. I can probably find it if you're bored enough to read it, but even that article broke down his issues...and that's when he was, statistically, balling. Problem was that the home court scorers were straight up cheating.
The guards quit trailing on the break because he does the same thing every time. They trailed on the break all of last year and the first few weeks of this year before realizing it's better for them to get back on defense than to waste their time running down court for him to hit the only defended guy or just take the layup himself.
I like DC, fwiw. I was very disappointed in what we got, because I was hoping for what I saw in the box score in NO, but he is what he is.
There was a fine article written during his time in NO where they questioned (and then dug into) whether and why he was wrongly credited on so many of his assists. I can probably find it if you're bored enough to read it, but even that article broke down his issues...and that's when he was, statistically, balling. Problem was that the home court scorers were straight up cheating.
The guards quit trailing on the break because he does the same thing every time. They trailed on the break all of last year and the first few weeks of this year before realizing it's better for them to get back on defense than to waste their time running down court for him to hit the only defended guy or just take the layup himself.
I like DC, fwiw. I was very disappointed in what we got, because I was hoping for what I saw in the box score in NO, but he is what he is.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I've stated statistical facts and defended pointless descriptions. People want to be able to say they're terrible and not be shown statistical evidence to the contrary, so they can carry on whatever bias they currently have. I'm no troll, yet I've been called a band-wagoner and obnoxious. Whatever.
Stick around, everyone gets the band-wagoner treatment. Shoot, When I was born Magic Johnson held me in his arms and draped me in the purple and gold, Kareem circumcised me, and Jerry West named me. I was still accused of being a bandwagoner.
That was before Bosh got hurt.
Yes, the Heat eeked out a game in which Bosh didn't finish, in Miami. That was a strong effort by them, but can not be extrapolated to anything of significance. It's all guessing. The Pacers get on their home court and win by 20. Bosh or no Bosh it showed that the teams were much more even than everyone thought going in.
Red Blaster
Member
I've stated statistical facts and defended pointless descriptions. People want to be able to say they're terrible and not be shown statistical evidence to the contrary, so they can carry on whatever bias they currently have. I'm no troll, yet I've been called a band-wagoner and obnoxious. Whatever.
As a Grizzlies fan I can relate. Everyone last year said we had no chance in beating the Spurs.
I like DC, fwiw. I was very disappointed in what we got, because I was hoping for what I saw in the box score in NO, but he is what he is.
I'm not a fan. George Hill is much better on both ends of the floor. Collison's shot is so flat it's disgusting.
I've stated statistical facts and defended pointless descriptions. People want to be able to say they're terrible and not be shown statistical evidence to the contrary, so they can carry on whatever bias they currently have. I'm no troll, yet I've been called a band-wagoner and obnoxious. Whatever.
Basketball statistics should only be used as a complement to other aspects of analysis. They paint but a small piece of the entire pictures so should be regarded with extreme skepticism.
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