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2013 Mar NBA Season lOT| Change This Face, Be Happy, Enjoy it!
- Thread starter reilo
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MorisUkunRasik
Member
Steroids use is an odd topic. People like to bring up 'level playing field' but it was never actually level. Genetically some guys are just better suited, men all produce varying levels of testerone. Even if you take something to boost your levels up, it still may not reach the levels of some athletes.
Why can't an athlete use HGH exactly? Should it be ok to use in order to speed up recovery? If not, should the league ban cold medicine that would shorten the length of a flu or cold?
It all seems like a gray area that professional sports is finally going to have to deal with.
Why can't an athlete use HGH exactly? Should it be ok to use in order to speed up recovery? If not, should the league ban cold medicine that would shorten the length of a flu or cold?
It all seems like a gray area that professional sports is finally going to have to deal with.
Black Mamba
Member
My position is true of all athletes in all sports. I don't care if they use this stuff to get healthy and think doctors should be handling it.
Exactly my point.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
baseball heads dont love home runs?
sans_pants
avec_pénis
if sports teams were allowed to pour money into legitimate performance enhancement technologies years ago we'd all be reaping massive benefits right now
See that's why you don't get it. I never said all NBA athletes are stand up citizens, I also didn't say half of nba athletes are lying cheats like you did. I'm somewhere in the middle. I think more NBA players have used banned substances than have been caught, but I don't think half the league uses banned substances with absolutely no evidence. Of the two of us, you're being forced to exaggerate my position to make your claims more reasonable.
As I said from before, we had this discussion during the lockout. You have a very low opinion of professional athletes that makes you jump to conclusions that portray them in a negative light with little to no evidence. Which is fine, but your views are more pessimistic than most.
Because at what point do you draw the line.
Ninja Scooter
Member
if PEDs can make a guy in his 17th season look as good as Kobe has looked, I can't think of a better example for why they should be 100% legal and allowed in sports.
Black Mamba
Member
Hence the moral ambiguity!
I don't really think physique is the end all be all tell that we pretend it is. I have seen some of the people outed for doping in other sports.
They aren't all buff as hell with massive jawlines and huge heads. Who knows though. I hope its not rampant in the NBA.
I think there's a healthy debate about whether athletes today really are performing better. I would say no. Some of them look crazier like Lebron and Dwight. But Wilt and Shaq were no athletic slouches either.
A guy like Rodman playing against the rough and physical basketball of the 80's and 90's and getting 16 or 17 RPG seems more impressive than the rebounding feats done by players today. In the 60's and 70's and 80's you had teams score 120 - 130 points a game with little to no use of 3 pt shots and taking drugs and smoking and drinking on the side. In the 60's guys like Elgin Baylor were in the armed forces and would play during the weekend and get 40/20/10 days.
Nowadays the elite scorers can't crack 30 PPG when you had seasons with 5-10 guys hitting that mark in the past. I really don't think basketball athletes are performing better than before so I'm not sure so many of them are using PED's
A guy like Rodman playing against the rough and physical basketball of the 80's and 90's and getting 16 or 17 RPG seems more impressive than the rebounding feats done by players today. In the 60's and 70's and 80's you had teams score 120 - 130 points a game with little to no use of 3 pt shots and taking drugs and smoking and drinking on the side. In the 60's guys like Elgin Baylor were in the armed forces and would play during the weekend and get 40/20/10 days.
Nowadays the elite scorers can't crack 30 PPG when you had seasons with 5-10 guys hitting that mark in the past. I really don't think basketball athletes are performing better than before so I'm not sure so many of them are using PED's
Herpes Reasons
Banned
hey, Nori-child, this is for you.
see, even a non californian knows what Tommy's is.
shame on you.
see, even a non californian knows what Tommy's is.
shame on you.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I honestly have no idea. An outright ban would be fine, you compete with what you were born with and that's that, but at this juncture it can not be done.
And I know using steroids to heal is seen as bad because it's not a healthkit in a videogame where you go from half health to full health and that's it, you gain residual benefits from steroid use.
I'd love for it to be black and white, you get tested randomly without notice and the testing process isn't a step behind the users. That would be ideal I think, but we're not there and I'm not sure if we can get there anytime soon.
So here we are potentially in the NBA's 'steroid era' with no real sign of it ending.
Edit: Also the question of should steroids be banned or regulated. There's a lot of questions and lots of differing opinions on the correct answer.
Black Mamba
Member
This is more because the game has slowed down, defenses are no longer stupid, and players ARE more athletic which favors defense over offense.
As the players got bigger/faster, there's also less room to operate since the court never expanded.
The fact that it hasn't been ruled illegal... yet.
I don't think they're as we'll conditioned. The pace of the 60's teams and even the 80's Showtime lakers with all the drug use and smoking and drinking on the side.
As for more athleticism favoring defense over offense, I don't think that's true either. Look at college box scores and FG% and look at the more elite NBA players box scores. Offense in the NBA is leaps and bounds better than the offense in college even though the defense is as well. I think that essentially means the more athletic the basketball players as a whole, the more difficult they are to stop and prolific their offensive output. I think a comparison of the college and pro games validates that.
The jump in defense from college to the pros is outweighed heavily by the jump in offense from college to the pros
seattle6418
Member
If it's somewhat safe (i mean, let's not allow for steroids that horses take) and it improves the quality of the sport, i think it's a good thing. Should be allowed.
There's already more stupid stuff considered legal, like those cortisone shots that they take to mask pain that end up making them on 50 year old guys that can barely walk.
There's already more stupid stuff considered legal, like those cortisone shots that they take to mask pain that end up making them on 50 year old guys that can barely walk.
seattle6418
Member
A regular team from today would run circles around a 60's or 70's NBA team. Training evolved and everybody is stronger, faster than in the past.
Also, there are less scrubs playing these days.
Different eras, i'm sure if Baylor and the likes were born today and had all the advancements at their disposal they would be great players, but back then the inflated numbers are somewhat due to the lack of professionalism in a league that was still trying to get a hold on the american market.
Ninja Scooter
Member
There is stuff that is banned in professional sports that you or I could buy over the counter at GNC. It's silly. This witch hunt of turning PEDs into this evil, four letter word needs to stop.
Black Mamba
Member
I don't know how you can compare college to NBA.
Man, the NBA wasn't the same in the 60s as it is today. Most of it was just running down and chucking. It also wasn't nearly as physical until much later. Defense was mostly just standing between your man and the basket, not bodying them up as much.
Wilt scored 55ppg in a season mostly because there was no actual player other than Russell that could compete with him. Wilt wouldn't average close to 55 in today's NBA ever.
If you could transplant an average player from the 60s without the benefit of what athletes get today, they'd keel over by game 30.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
I REALLY doubt that the NBA doesn't put all the stops in place to make sure that they're super stars like Kobe, LeBron or MJ who make them shit loads of money and promote the league so much will NEVER be caught. It's the mediocre players like Hedo that NBA doesn't care about anf will get caught.
That is, if they're not using them. Which I'd like to think that they don't.
That is, if they're not using them. Which I'd like to think that they don't.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Jazz play the Cavs in two days, noooooo.
Drugs in sports, one of my favorite topics.
I'm fine with them really. But most don't understand how they work and what benefit each drug can do for an athlete.
And then you have athletes testing positive for a banned substance and people assume they were taking Anabolics.
DHEA is not a steroid. It is on the banned substance list though. It fell out of favour in the late 90s and most science suggests it wont help anyone under the age of 40 and of declining natural HGH production anyways.
The problem is that the ingredient is "pixie dusted" into random products so they can make claims of what benefits the product can offer.
HGH is fantastic for repair. When we are younger we repair faster. Cuts, scrapes, breaks all repaired faster when we were young. If we can manipulate that in a mature body we get back to full speed quicker when recovering from an injury, and repair quicker on a day to basis which helps the wear and year of life.
The blood treatment so far isn't an issue because its not manipulating hormone levels (that we are aware of). The basic idea of the treatment is its supplying extra (healthy) blood to the area of repair to replicate the injury response our bodies do immediately after an injury. Not well versed on the procedure. But that is the basic idea.
I am not saying Bron hasn't used anything but his physique was always big and has maintained a similar look and proportion since his HS days. It's hard not to notice the wide thick jaw that D.Wade has now. Just saying.
But I don't care regardless.
My biggest annoyance is when fans roll some athlete under the bus and call for their heads and careers while waving a flag for their own favorite athlete. If you think the athlete you like isn't doing something behind closed doors you are poorly mistaken.
I'm fine with them really. But most don't understand how they work and what benefit each drug can do for an athlete.
And then you have athletes testing positive for a banned substance and people assume they were taking Anabolics.
DHEA is not a steroid. It is on the banned substance list though. It fell out of favour in the late 90s and most science suggests it wont help anyone under the age of 40 and of declining natural HGH production anyways.
The problem is that the ingredient is "pixie dusted" into random products so they can make claims of what benefits the product can offer.
HGH is fantastic for repair. When we are younger we repair faster. Cuts, scrapes, breaks all repaired faster when we were young. If we can manipulate that in a mature body we get back to full speed quicker when recovering from an injury, and repair quicker on a day to basis which helps the wear and year of life.
The blood treatment so far isn't an issue because its not manipulating hormone levels (that we are aware of). The basic idea of the treatment is its supplying extra (healthy) blood to the area of repair to replicate the injury response our bodies do immediately after an injury. Not well versed on the procedure. But that is the basic idea.
I am not saying Bron hasn't used anything but his physique was always big and has maintained a similar look and proportion since his HS days. It's hard not to notice the wide thick jaw that D.Wade has now. Just saying.
But I don't care regardless.
My biggest annoyance is when fans roll some athlete under the bus and call for their heads and careers while waving a flag for their own favorite athlete. If you think the athlete you like isn't doing something behind closed doors you are poorly mistaken.
Fenderputty
Banned
Ryan Braun is a great example of this.
I personally think PED's should be allowed. They'll never be able to test well enough to ensure a "level playing field" anyway. As mamba has pointed out, a rather morally ambiguous topic as well considering recent medical advances.
This conversation will be REALLY interesting in 50 years or whenever genetic modification is possible.
Edit: I also think PED's in basketball is more like pitchers who use in baseball. Added strength is a bonus where recovery is the main benefit.
I don't know much about it. Don't care really, it just puts a black mark on the sport for me. Ban them all or something and lets be done with it. I just don't want shit like cheaters hovering over the game, it ruins my enjoyment of watching sports.
So do some super tests or some shit with no notice and perma ban everyone abusing swiftly and without any room for review. Then we can all get back to enjoying the game. I would hate to have the NBA ruined by this shit for years as it drags on and on and on like cycling did.
So do some super tests or some shit with no notice and perma ban everyone abusing swiftly and without any room for review. Then we can all get back to enjoying the game. I would hate to have the NBA ruined by this shit for years as it drags on and on and on like cycling did.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Lance Armstrong is built like Steve Nash and he was juiced out his asshole. The idea that we can tell who is and isn't juicing is such a dated narrative yet people continue to run with it. The baseball writers who admit they decided who to give a Hall of Fame vote based on the "eye test" should be raked over the coals and have their vote taken away from them.
Well physique obviously is dependent on training method too. Lance isnt going to be built like a bodybuilder just because he manipulates his hormone levels.
Baseball is a mess. They should just clean slate that entire period of the sport and move on. Let good players into the HOF and move on.
sans_pants
avec_pénis
try 20 years. not to mention a host of other advancements in medicine. "oh your acl tore, we grew this new one for you, give it 2 weeks to heal" "oh, your bones are brittle? we 3-d printed some replacements" "oh, you are out of breath? heres some nanocells that replace your blood and no longer require you to breathe."
these are like 10-15 years out technologies
This term gave me cancer.
I like burgers
Haha how about if its hyphened? Nano-cells.
And really it should have cured your cancer. Not given you cancer.
I'm not saying today's average athlete isn't more athletic than in the 60's. Of course they are. I do think the 60's athletes were better conditioned though, I think their endurance was crazier just off the pace they played at and some of them had second jobs and smoked and drank.
That being said I was judging outlier performance. 17 RPG by a 6'8 guy. 15 by a 6'4 guy. Someone getting 40/20/10 as a second Job and probably addicted to coke. Those type of outlier performances that don't exist much anymore.
I'm not amazed by what almost any NBA player does these days over a season. KD is a silky shooter but he's averaging under 30 a game...not that amazing. Dwight is athletic but his performance doesn't match past greats. Lebron's performance is amazing but mainly due to FG% - his numbers are earily similar to Bird and others in the past despite how much people want to delegitimize what past greats did. the most amazing thing in terms of athletic achievement is the longevity of guys like Nash, Kobe, KD, Garnett but I think that's mostly due to developments on modern science.
My point is I don't see athletic outlier achievements that make me think people are taking PED's. This isn't baseball where guys are shattering 80 year old home run records and stuff. The production by today's NBA players isn't shattering old records to raise all those suspicions like what Lance did or what Bonds/McGuire did.
Fenderputty
Banned
Exactly. This HGH talk is just the tip of the ice berg. 100% natural will soon be a thing of the past.
Knux-Future
Banned
nanomachines son
Black Mamba
Member
Until the 90s nobody played defense
Defense takes a whole lot more energy than offense
ergo, players could play really long back then.
The other fact is while we COULD play players longer, we've noticed it's both inefficient and backups are much better now.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Nobody is 100% natural and hasn't been for a while. There is nothing natural about ACL repairs, or tommy john surgery, or taking cortizone shots.
Fenderputty
Banned
Very true.
I understand your angle. But I don't consider reconstruction through medical practice to be performance enhancing. It's a set back not a benefit to tear an ACL. Cortisone shots too. Just masks the issue that an athlete is dealing with.
This applies in every sport though. Tennis players have better defensive strategies. Baseball pitchers have more wide array of pitches and faster fast balls and yet there are people in those sports doing crazy things in historical context. Doing nearly superhuman things, shattering long held records with relative ease, that's the kinda stuff that I'm not seeing in the NBA. It's why Adrian Petersons season has been clouded in doubt - because it doesn't make sense.
The NBA hasn't had much of that. If you had a guy scoring 40 a night, or a guy getting 20 rebounds a night or a guy getting 4 blocks a night you'd stop and take notice. But outside of Lebron - and the agelessness of some of the mid to late 90's draft superstars - there's nothing in the NBA that makes me go "ok yea those guys are definitely juicing because their performance has no historical precedent"
In all honesty, much of today's players season's are "meh" to me. Like, does Wade need to juice to score 22 a game as a second option? Don't think so. Does Dwight need to to out up his numbers? Or KD his numbers?
I'm not saying they for sure aren't, but their performances are right about in line with what they've always done, or worse, and it's not blowing anyone out the water
Syphon Filter
Member
Kyrie is getting the pipe tonight.
Dominican Power
Member
The Knicks are getting that pipe
I doubt the NBA caters to certain players and gives them preferential treatment.
Psychological Intellect
Banned
Black Mamba
Member
But the NBA leads itself to make scoring harder over time, not easier.
Football changed rules that make WRs and Qbs almost untouchable, hence their receiving/throwing records being obliterated.
In baseball, while pitchers have obviously improved, not nearly at the same rate as hitters.
I'm not talking about juicing at all in this conversation. But the notion that athletes in the 60s were better conditioned is laughable.
Do you know what ended Mikan's career? When players realized they are allowed to run.
True. They raised the mound in baseball after all.
That's cuz games in the 50's when he played had no shot clock and were snooze fests. Once the game changed he couldn't compete. But once it became about outrunning you, players got really well conditioned. It was like a bunch of teams that played mid 2000's Phx style basketball on steroids. Sure they played no defense, but when the 4th quarter came around they were still at full speed while everyone else was running on fumes.
There are absolutely teams that run n gun and play at a pace that are faster than others. Every elite team in the 60's would play at that kind of breakneck pace. Riley would make his teams do 3 hour practices and then run Showtime in 80's. Most NBA teams today don't even have a full practice during game days and take a lot more days off then teams back then used to. That's what contributes to the longevity of today's athletes, but doesn't make them better conditioned.
You mean lowered.