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2014 NBA Off-season |OT| Our cap is tellin me NO! But my fandom is tellin me YEAH!

U

UnObtainium17

Member
It's gonna be hilarious to me if Flip takes the Bulls offer. Easily the worst they could take among the other trade rumors i've been reading about. Taj won't make a difference to Timbs. Why bother taking him, he will be what he is now a really good role player. Doug and Mirotic might turn pretty good, but I would take my chance on Wiggins over both of those guys. They are all shit offers to be honest. But Timbs better do something.. because those teams who are rumored to be negotiating with them will still be fine even w/o doing the trade.

Edit: man, bron making the miami cavaliers a real possibility. Lol. He better holla at Joel Anthony heh.
 
Z

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
UnObtainium17 said:
It's gonna be hilarious to me if Flip takes the Bulls offer. Easily the worst they could take among the other trade rumors i've been reading about. Taj won't make a difference to Timbs. Why bother taking him, he will be what he is now a really good role player. Doug and Mirotic might turn pretty good, but I would take my chance on Wiggins over both of those guys. They are all shit offers to be honest. But Timbs better do something.. because those teams who are rumored to be negotiating with them will still be fine even w/o doing the trade.
Click to expand...

I still say they should send K love to the Celtics for all those picks they have.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
UnObtainium17 said:
It's gonna be hilarious to me if Flip takes the Bulls offer. Easily the worst they could take among the other trade rumors i've been reading about. Taj won't make a difference to Timbs. Why bother taking him, he will be what he is now a really good role player. Doug and Mirotic might turn pretty good, but I would take my chance on Wiggins over both of those guys. They are all shit offers to be honest. But Timbs better do something.. because those teams who are rumored to be negotiating with them will still be fine even w/o doing the trade.

Edit: man, bron making the miami cavaliers a real possibility. Lol. He better holla at Joel Anthony heh.
Click to expand...
Doug, Mirotic, and Gibson is right up there with a Wiggins offer. Doug is a natural scorer, Mirotic could be a pretty good replacement for Love, and a starting Gibson would give Minnesota 15 and 10 right now easily.

I'd rather stand pat while the Cavs gut their depth to get Love. If Love's detractors are right, and he's not much of an impact player against good defenses in big games, they're fucked. If the Bulls beat them in the playoffs, LeBron will panic. They'll have little room for improvement.
 
P

Piecake

Member
BadAss2961 said:
Doug, Mirotic, and Gibson is right up there with a Wiggins offer. Doug is a natural scorer, Mirotic could be a pretty good replacement for Love, and a starting Gibson would give Minnesota 15 and 10 right now easily.

I'd rather stand pat while the Cavs gut their depth to get Love. If Love's detractors are right, and he's not much of an impact player against good defenses in big games, they're fucked. If the Bulls beat them in the playoffs, LeBron will panic. They'll have little room for improvement.
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I really don't think that is true. Don't expect him to create his own shot out of thin air, but he can do it in the post and get his shot off playing pick and pop. The pick and pop is going to be absolutely deadly with Love and Lebron/Kyrie. I mean, hell, it worked really well with Rubio, and he can't even shoot!
 
B

Bowser

Member
BadAss2961 said:
Doug, Mirotic, and Gibson is right up there with a Wiggins offer. Doug is a natural scorer, Mirotic could be a pretty good replacement for Love, and a starting Gibson would give Minnesota 15 and 10 right now easily.

I'd rather stand pat while the Cavs gut their depth to get Love. If Love's detractors are right, and he's not much of an impact player against good defenses in big games, they're fucked. If the Bulls beat them in the playoffs, LeBron will panic. They'll have little room for improvement.
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lol such a dumb myth. That and he's not "a winner":

The biggest Love criticism isn't defense. It's his team's record.

"Love is so overrated," one NBA executive told Insider's Jeff Goodman last week. "He's never won."

As bad as the Timberwolves have been overall, they have been worse without Love. As the chart at right shows, according to NBA.com/Stats, without Love on the floor, Minnesota has been outscored by at least 4.7 points per 100 possessions -- a mark equivalent to last season's Detroit Pistons -- in five of his six seasons. The only exception was 2012-13, when Love was limited to 18 games after breaking a bone in his hand during training camp.

Last season, the Timberwolves outscored opponents by 4.4 points per 100 possessions with Love on the floor, a mark similar to the Miami Heat with Ray Allen, for one. They were done in by their poor bench -- exacerbated by Adelman playing his starters together, which inflated their ratings at the expense of reserves -- and a historic inability to win close games. Minnesota finished with the league's 10th-best point differential, which would have ranked fourth in the East.

Even discounting those issues, the Timberwolves' combination of a high-rated star and a below-.500 finish was rare but not unprecedented. Love joined five other examples since the ABA-NBA merger, including Michael Jordan twice, of a player posting 20-plus wins above replacement player for a sub-.500 team.

Best players on sub-.500 teams

Code: 
Player	Team	Year	WARP	Win%
Kevin Garnett	MIN	2006	20.2	.402
Charles Barkley	PHI	1988	23.1	.439
Michael Jordan	CHI	1985	20.3	.463
Kevin Love	MIN	2014	20.3	.488
Michael Jordan	CHI	1987	22.5	.488
Moses Malone	HOU	1981	20.6	.488

While Jordan's Bulls grew into a contender later in his career (his appearances above came in his first and third seasons), Barkley, Garnett and Malone enjoyed newfound team success after changing uniforms. Malone and Garnett both won championships in their first season with their new teams, while Barkley's Suns reached the Finals in his first season. Barkley and Malone both were named MVP the year after their trades, and Garnett finished third in the voting.

In all those cases, it turned out that the problem was the rest of the team, not the star. The statistical evidence suggests a similar re-evaluation will take place if Love is traded to a team that can better support his unique skills.
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http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11251473/why-trading-kevin-love-no-brainer-nba

Both the Bulls and Cavs would be fucking retarded not to trade away role players and unknowns for a true superstar like Love.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
Bowser said:
lol such a dumb myth. That and he's not "a winner":

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11251473/why-trading-kevin-love-no-brainer-nba

Both the Bulls and Cavs would be fucking retarded not to trade away role players and unknowns for a true superstar like Love.
Click to expand...
All those guys led their teams to the playoffs. Love hasn't managed a winning record yet. I like his game, but so far he's just put up great numbers on a sorry team.

He's a really good player, but a 2nd man on any championship contender.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
BadAss2961 said:
All those guys led their teams to the playoffs. Love hasn't managed a winning record yet. I like his game, but so far he's just put up great numbers on a sorry team.

He's a really good player, but a 2nd man on any championship contender.
Click to expand...

You sound like a person who uses pitcher wins to determine who should win the Cy Young. We have stats that can better measure how valuable or good a player is. Using those and by looking at Love's skillset he is up there with the best in the league. This past season only KD and LBJ were better. If you want to get closer to your precious W/L measurement, look at his +/- numbers, which IIRC were the best in the league if not up there. WHen he was on the court the TWolves played as well as most playoff teams. When he sat, they tanked to a lottery team. What does that tell you? Is he magically supposed to make guys better while sitting on the bench getting a rest?
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
You sound like a person who uses pitcher wins to determine who should win the Cy Young. We have stats that can better measure how valuable or good a player is. Using those and by looking at Love's skillset he is up there with the best in the league. This past season only KD and LBJ were better. If you want to get closer to your precious W/L measurement, look at his +/- numbers, which IIRC were the best in the league if not up there. WHen he was on the court the TWolves played as well as most playoff teams. When he sat, they tanked to a lottery team. What does that tell you? Is he magically supposed to make guys better while sitting on the bench getting a rest?
Click to expand...
This isn't baseball, it's the NBA. Any true big time player will at least eventually get your team into the playoffs.

Are you denying that he can't be the best player on a contender?
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
BadAss2961 said:
This isn't baseball, it's the NBA. Any true big time player will eventually get your team into the playoffs.

Are you denying that he can't be the best player on a contender?
Click to expand...

Yes I am denying that, because we have numbers and statistics that back that up rather than just using "feelings", Joe Morgan. Kevin Love played on a horrible team in a stacked conference. I've asked this before when people bring up team W/L to rag on Love, but if the TWolves had been in the East the last 3 years and he made 1 or 2 token playoff appearances as a one and done 7 or 8 seed, would that all of a sudden make him a great player? An alpha dog? It's lazy analysis.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Yes I am denying that, because we have numbers and statistics that back that up rather than just using "feelings", Joe Morgan. Kevin Love played on a horrible team in a stacked conference. I've asked this before when people bring up team W/L to rag on Love, but if the TWolves had been in the East the last 3 years and he made 1 or 2 token playoff appearances as a one and done 7 or 8 seed, would that all of a sudden make him a great player? An alpha dog? It's lazy analysis.
Click to expand...
And that's a losing record every year he's been in the league. Stacked conference or not, that says a lot.

I'm pretty sure the Wolves also have a terrible 'close game' record.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
BadAss2961 said:
And that's a losing record every year he's been in the league. Stacked conference or not, that says a lot.

I'm pretty sure the Wolves also have a terrible 'close game' record.
Click to expand...

It says that he's on a terrible team. That's what team W/L measures. If you trade Paul George and Kevin Love places, the Pacers win 60 games and the Wolves are still in the lottery. Yet PG is a promising young player while Love is an overrated stat stuffer. Makes no sense.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
It says that he's on a terrible team. That's what team W/L measures. If you trade Paul George and Kevin Love places, the Pacers win 60 games and the Wolves are still in the lottery. Yet PG is a promising young player while Love is an overrated stat stuffer. Makes no sense.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying he's an overrated stat stuffer, just that he's a 2nd option. Unlike all the truly great players, he's no threat AT ALL 'by himself.'

Every team he wants to go to has a player that's either better or more valuable than he is. It's no coincidence.
 
L

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
BadAss2961 said:
And that's a losing record every year he's been in the league. Stacked conference or not, that says a lot.

I'm pretty sure the Wolves also have a terrible 'close game' record.
Click to expand...
The Wolves' Pythagorean record last year was 48-34. They were historically unlucky in an absurdly difficult conference to miss the playoffs. The year before, Love broke his hand doing "knuckle pushups" and was out almost the entire year. In the lockout year they were headed for playoff contention until Kobe murdered Rubio's ACL with his filthy shove. These are the three years in which he had a decent coach. Bad luck and injuries are largely what kept them out of the playoffs.

I mean Love shares some of the blame in the close games thing. But the set plays they would run at the end of games were always a Love/K-Mart two man game that rarely worked. If you look back, K-Mart has always been on teams that have horrible records in close games. Adelman's record is terrible in close games.

Kevin Love is easily a top 10 player. You could argue he's in the top 5. The Wolves blew it with him when they didn't give him the max. It sucks that they haven't had good luck to keep him around. But if you can trade Wiggins/Bennett and trash or McBuckets/Mirotic/Gibson for a legit superstar player you do it.

Honestly, book it: He's going to be on a winning team next year. His stats won't be as good as they were this year, but the talking point will be that he's finally turned a corner. I'm sad as fuck that he's leaving. I can only hope the magic beans that our GM is trading for can be molded into useful pieces by our coach.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
BadAss2961 said:
I'm not saying he's an overrated stat stuffer, just that he's a 2nd option. Unlike all the truly great players, he's no threat AT ALL 'by himself.'

Every team he wants to go to has a player that's either better or more valuable than he is. It's no coincidence.
Click to expand...

Outside of maybe LeBron who doesn't that describe? If you put Kevin Durant on a terrible team like Minny are you sure they wouldn't also suck? Because I'm not. So the only real knock against Kevin Love is "he's not LeBron James" which seems kinda ridiculous.
 
C

CB3

intangibles, motherfucker
James Harden: “Dwight and I are the cornerstones of the Rockets. The rest of the guys are role players.”
Click to expand...

I didnt know cornerstones shot 37% from the field in the playoffs.

Did Parsons fuck their girlfriends or something? They are trying to do him real dirty.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
Outside of maybe LeBron who doesn't that describe? If you put Kevin Durant on a terrible team like Minny are you sure they wouldn't also suck? Because I'm not. So the only real knock against Kevin Love is "he's not LeBron James" which seems kinda ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Stats aside, there are guys that have more impact on the outcome of games than others. Intangibles. KD is one of those guys, he'd get Minny to the playoffs. More often than not, Love is yet to prove that he can do more than just get his numbers and lose. That's a number 2. For now, he's in Chris Bosh territory. Having him would be great, but at the right price. I don't feel good about gutting my team for a player of that level.

One might say Melo puts a hole in this argument, as he's definitely above Chris Bosh territory despite losing in the east this year, but it's different for elite scorers. Any team he's on without Durant, he'll lead them in scoring.

LeBron, KD, healthy Derrick Rose (call me a homer), maybe Chris Paul, and a bunch of other players from recent memory (some still in the league) are all guys that have "it," where I feel like I can compete as long as they're out there. Love isn't one of those guys.
 
F

fertygo

Member
You can say all kind of thing, but the thing is Love will be the best talent that Thibs touch since Rose's MVP year if the trade happen. That's something to put into account.
 
BadAss2961

BadAss2961

Member
fertygo said:
You can say all kind of thing, but the thing is Love will be the best talent that Thibs touch since Rose's MVP year if the trade happen. That's something to put into account.
Click to expand...
Rose will be the best talent that Thibs has touched since Rose's MVP year if the trade happens. lol
 
N

Nuklear

Banned
BadAss2961 said:
Stats aside, there are guys that have more impact on the outcome of games than others. Intangibles. KD is one of those guys, he'd get Minny to the playoffs. More often than not, Love is yet to prove that he can do more than just get his numbers and lose. That's a number 2. For now, he's in Chris Bosh territory. Having him would be great, but at the right price. I don't feel good about gutting my team for a player of that level.

One might say Melo puts a hole in this argument, as he's definitely above Chris Bosh territory despite losing in the east this year, but it's different for elite scorers. Any team he's on without Durant, he'll lead them in scoring.

LeBron, KD, healthy Derrick Rose (call me a homer), maybe Chris Paul, and a bunch of other players from recent memory (some still in the league) are all guys that have "it," where I feel like I can compete as long as they're out there. Love isn't one of those guys.
Click to expand...

The West right now has about 10 legit(maybe more if you compare them to the East) playoff teams) while about 4 of the 8 East playoff teams that made it into the playoffs last season should be in the lottery. Put the Twolves in the East and they make it into the Playoffs easily.

That's not to say Love is on KD's level of a Superstar because he clearly isn't. We all know what a put a team on your back kind of player is because we had Kevin Garrett. KG made players better around him while Love gets his numbers and that's about it. He's a good #2 guy which is what both the Cavs and the Bulls need.

Rubio improves the players around him more than Love does.
 
G

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
CherryWoodFuton said:
Ray Allen considering playing with Lebron in Cleveland...

Ok I'm kinda salty about this one...
Click to expand...

Wut?

He disappeared in the first two years you faced him in Boston, and he was the hero that saved game 6 in season #3.

Had he not disappeared while playing against Miami and shown up when it mattered while playing for Miami, there's a good chance the Heat would be looking at a failed 4 year experiment with 0 titles.

You have no right to be salty.
 
M

MetalFearSolid

Banned
Probably late, but just heard about the James Harden news? Referring to Dwight Howard and himself as the cornerstones of the Rockets and the rest of the guys are just role players that can be replaced. Lol. Parsons responded as well. Turning into a Mavs/Rockets rivalry. Don't like Dwight Howard so, I hope Mavs meet them in the playoffs and give the Rockets another first round exit.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....e-players/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twit
 
P

Pimpwerx

Member
Cavs want Ray too? Meh. They can have him. I'm not sure we're missing anyone but Bron next year. Skolnick put it in perspective pretty well. The guy who started at PF for us this year just had his contract voided due to being physically unable to play. Ray gets no hate from me, but we're better off building young. We might land White Jesus Tyler Johnson as a replacement. League once again on notice? LOL. PEACE.
 
V

Vicetrailia

Member
10554067_666037280159775_838559991_n-620x620.jpg
Click to expand...

Portrait of King Melo from Kehinde Wiley's "Modern-Day Kings of Culture" series. Couldn't help but post this.
 
E

Enron

Banned
CB3 said:
I didnt know cornerstones shot 37% from the field in the playoffs.

Did Parsons fuck their girlfriends or something? They are trying to do him real dirty.
Click to expand...



haha espn comments can be good every now and again.

Zach Morgan · Top Commenter · Back of House at Apple Inc.
I'd like to see this back and forth continue, but it's not like Harden to get defensive.
Click to expand...
 
P

Purple Cheeto

Member
BadAss2961 said:
Stats aside, there are guys that have more impact on the outcome of games than others. Intangibles. KD is one of those guys, he'd get Minny to the playoffs. More often than not, Love is yet to prove that he can do more than just get his numbers and lose. That's a number 2. For now, he's in Chris Bosh territory. Having him would be great, but at the right price. I don't feel good about gutting my team for a player of that level.

One might say Melo puts a hole in this argument, as he's definitely above Chris Bosh territory despite losing in the east this year, but it's different for elite scorers. Any team he's on without Durant, he'll lead them in scoring.

LeBron, KD, healthy Derrick Rose (call me a homer), maybe Chris Paul, and a bunch of other players from recent memory (some still in the league) are all guys that have "it," where I feel like I can compete as long as they're out there. Love isn't one of those guys.
Click to expand...


But advanced metrics are how we measure a player's impact and the metrics say Kevin Love has a massive positive impact on his team. I feel like you're grasping at straws and inventing new definitions and bars to cross in order to denigrate Kevin Love.
 
Z

zychi

Banned
Purple Cheeto said:
But advanced metrics are how we measure a player's impact and the metrics say Kevin Love has a massive positive impact on his team. I feel like you're grasping at straws and inventing new definitions and bars to cross in order to denigrate Kevin Love.
Click to expand...
Love doesnt play defense, all of the examples being said in this thread, besides cp3, play defense. Love can score, but so could tracy mcgrady. Guess who was the man, but couldnt get pass the first round? Similar to Love, but no playoff exp yet


As a bulls fan, i hope bulls take back the offer or min says no. Keep the team as is, if love really wants to be a bull, hell come over in fa next year. Love isnt getting traded til xmas/jan anyways
 
S

SoulPlaya

more money than God
zychi said:
Love doesnt play defense, all of the examples being said in this thread, besides cp3, play defense. Love can score, but so could tracy mcgrady. Guess who was the man, but couldnt get pass the first round? Similar to Love, but no playoff exp yet


As a bulls fan, i hope bulls take back the offer or min says no. Keep the team as is, if love really wants to be a bull, hell come over in fa next year. Love isnt getting traded til xmas/jan anyways
Click to expand...
What is it with Bulls fans and this, "if he really wants to be a Bull, then he'll come over" BS. Bulls fans do this with every superstar.

I mean, this is incredible, honestly. CreepingFear hates GarPax, but they're just a reflection of the damn fans.
 
C

CreepingFear

Member
SoulPlaya said:
What is it with Bulls fans and this, "if he really wants to be a Bull, then he'll come over" BS. Bulls fans do this with every superstar.

I mean, this is incredible, honestly. CreepingFear hates GarPax, but they're just a reflection of the damn fans.
Click to expand...

Hate for Paxson is a strong word. I'll always love him for the shot against Phoenix. He just shouldn't be a GM. He falls in love with players way too much and isn't willing to take risks. Gar on the other hand, I can't stand to look at the Gomer Pyle looking mother fucker. Left over from Tim Floyd era who I believe is the one causing problems with Thibs and firing assistant coaches. Maybe I'm wrong, Paxson was the one who choked Vinny. Maybe I'm being unfair to Forman.
 
B

Bowser

Member
zychi said:
Love doesnt play defense, all of the examples being said in this thread, besides cp3, play defense. Love can score, but so could tracy mcgrady. Guess who was the man, but couldnt get pass the first round? Similar to Love, but no playoff exp yet


As a bulls fan, i hope bulls take back the offer or min says no. Keep the team as is, if love really wants to be a bull, hell come over in fa next year. Love isnt getting traded til xmas/jan anyways
Click to expand...

This is such a damn tired notion:

Even the biggest Love skeptic would concede his prowess as a scorer and rebounder -- right before bringing up the defensive end. Here's the thing: It's hard to find statistical support for the widespread notion that Love is a defensive turnstile.

It's possible to highlight stats that showcase Love's defensive shortcomings, particularly as a rim protector. New SportVU player-tracking data on NBA.com showed that last season opponents shot 57.4 percent when Love was within five feet of attempts near the rim, the league's fourth-worst rate among players who defended at least five rim attempts per game.

However, opponent shooting percentage tells only half of the story. Love's reluctance to contest shots also kept him out of foul trouble and opponents off the free throw line. His 1.8 fouls per 36 minutes were the fewest of any regular big man last season (no one else was below 2.0 per 36), and not coincidentally, the Timberwolves allowed the league's lowest rate of free throws per field goal attempt. The trade-off between not fouling and surrendering layups didn't always work out for Minnesota and former coach Rick Adelman encouraged his team to foul more frequently, but looking at opponent shooting percentages without context is unfair to Love.

There's also the matter of rebounding. For individual players, defensive rebounding is not as valuable as offensive rebounding because many defensive rebounds are discretionary -- another defender will get the rebound if one individual does not -- but it's still part of defense, and the Timberwolves have had a better defensive rebound percentage with Love on the court every season of his career. Last season, per NBA.com/Stats, they rebounded 75.3 percent of opponents' misses with Love and 72.4 percent when he was on the bench.

Add it up and ESPN's real plus-minus shows Love as an above-average defensive player, even for a big man. (Post players rate better on defense in plus-minus metrics as compared to perimeter players.) And despite playing Love with another poor rim protector in center Nikola Pekovic, Minnesota was average defensively last season.
Click to expand...

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11251473/why-trading-kevin-love-no-brainer-nba
 
J

jordan0386

Member
Zach Lowe did a piece on to foul or not to foul.

If Kevin fouled more, he wouldn't be at 26 and 12. Would be dope if he blocked 3 shots a game. But if he cant, its my job as a GM to get players who can to surround him with.
 
N

Nuklear

Banned
All you need is a C that can block shots to complement Love. Finding a C that block rather than score is a lot easier I think. Finding a C that score is so much more harder. Which is why I value Pek so much more. Dude can score and it's a lot easier to find a PF.
 
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