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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)

Moosichu

Member
For gods sake. Can we leave Trump out if this.

When people start talking advocating the deporting large swathes of society with little evidence. It's always valuable to show why that thinking does not help anyone.

Rereading my post though, it was out of place. I am sorry for that.

I don't want to derail this thread though. My heart is broken today, while my thoughts are with the people of Manchester and the world.
 

Orbis

Member
I think it's normal for people to want to live somewhere safe.
It's completely normal. But is the UK unsafe? Given the scale of the threat from Al Quaeda and then ISIS, this was the first major attack on the UK for 12 years. I'd say the authorities are doing a pretty stellar job without needing to imprison or deport people without trial. One will always slip through the net, as they would even with more extreme measures like some have proposed.
 
I go through the arena/Victoria every day for work due to working in the city centre.

Usually a 10 minute journey from where I live on the train to there. All trains to Victoria obviously cancelled. Had to get a bus and the roads are chaotic due to all the disruption.

I'm a season ticket holder at Manchester City and over the start of this year, maybe just after, the queues to get in have been 25 mins long in some areas because of increased security. You now get pat down and someone goes over you with a metal detector and asks to go through any bags or belongings before you're allowed in.

Makes me wonder if there was some sort of intelligence about an imminent attack at a spectator event because it started out of nowhere.
 

Moosichu

Member
I thought you apologized? I guess you can't help fighting back to defend the honor of Brexit and Theresa May? Cool.

Don't let this get heated. Please move on. This thread has nothing to do with Brexit. Brexit and fear or terrorism are related in extremely complex ways, but I don't think this thread is the place for having the nuanced discussion about that.

Emotions are running high, but we are all on the same side.
 

Necro900

Member
I think it's normal for people to want to live somewhere safe.

Except people do live somewhere safe, and events like these do not warrant the deportation of suspects.

Can people please stop defending this shitty suggestion about deporting people?

Worse thing is that people who defend this aren't even that straightforward about it. Sentences like "people want to live somewhere safe" are pure rhetoric and probably hide some pretty interesting ideals underneath.
 

E-phonk

Banned
If the one who carried out this attack turns out to be like so many before: 'small time criminal, radicalised in prison, known to the authorities' there is a limit to the number of times you can argue they need to be free to keep tabs on the real terrorists. This was one of the deadliest attacks ever, it does not get more real then this.

As bad as these individuals are, you can't lock up people who didn't actually do something wrong (yet), and you can't let THOSE individuals shape our society.

Also - reactions right after terrible events like this are rarely nuanced and unlikely to bring good solutions for the future.
 
I go through the arena/Victoria every day for work due to working in the city centre.

Usually a 10 minute journey from where I live on the train to there. All trains to Victoria obviously cancelled. Had to get a bus and the roads are chaotic due to all the disruption.

I'm a season ticket holder at Manchester City and over the start of this year, maybe just after, the queues to get in have been 25 mins long in some areas because of increased security. You now get pat down and someone goes over you with a metal detector and asks to go through any bags or belongings before you're allowed in.

Makes me wonder if there was some sort of intelligence about an imminent attack at a spectator event because it started out of nowhere.

I don't think it really started "Out of nowhere" even if there wasn't specific intelligence about a credible threat, really - that would be a natural reaction to the attacks in mainland Europe, including one which attempted to get inside a stadium (but mercifully failed). It's just the way things need to be now.
 
I thought you apologized? I guess you can't help fighting back to defend the honor of Brexit and Theresa May? Cool.

I voted to remain smart ass. And I don't particularly like May. I prefer her to the leftie geography teacher who will undoubtedly bankrupt the country and turn the clock back to the 70s mind, but let's not turn this into a political debate. Whilst we're at it, why don't you apologize for labelling me when you know nothing about me.
 
I thought you apologized? I guess you can't help fighting back to defend the honor of Brexit and Theresa May? Cool.

I know it's frustrating duckroll but I think we should just leave this and move on :/ kinda unrelated.

On-topic, I wonder if the police were able to source a phone or ID from the attacker, any note of that?
 
I go through the arena/Victoria every day for work due to working in the city centre.

Usually a 10 minute journey from where I live on the train to there. All trains to Victoria obviously cancelled. Had to get a bus and the roads are chaotic due to all the disruption.

Trams are still running jut not stopping at Victoria for obvious reasons but they are passing through the station.
 

duckroll

Member
With respect, duckroll, I think this is unneeded.

I feel it's more important than ever in today's world to control emotions every time an act of domestic terrorism happens instead of overreacting and spewing nonsense, and then trying to normalize it. If that makes me the bad guy so be it. Yes it's fucking horrific that someone suicide bombed a concert with tons of teenagers. It's unacceptable. But the desire to jump to conclusions and to react by wanting extreme retaliation without regards to proper due process is dangerous thinking that can no longer be responded to with "it's normal to feel this way" because it shouldn't be normal.
 

LNBL

Member
Everyone take a breather and let's keep this thread healthy with regards to the terrible incident. Im sure there are enough other threads to discuss the political sides of things in greater detail.
 

besada

Banned
Tempers are flaring on all sides. Step away from the keyboard, take a breath, remember that you're all just people trying to deal with a difficult and scary situation, and that people often lose control of their mouths when that happens.
 
If the one who carried out this attack turns out to be like so many before: 'small time criminal, radicalised in prison, known to the authorities' there is a limit to the number of times you can argue they need to be free to keep tabs on the real terrorists. This was one of the deadliest attacks ever, it does not get more real then this.

Those who are "remotely suspected to being extremist" have not the same profile of the terrorists themselves. If they go the same mosque, are related or have some friends in common that enough.

Again, if you really care about safety, deporting everybody who can be "remotely suspect" is the worst way to deal with terrorism, since they are the visible tip who can lead to the real danger. Real terrorist are smarts. They don't show any sign of outside radicalism. The process is usually like this: slow radicalization that show -> quick escalation that lead to the internal adoption of terrorism and the external rejection of all signs that could point toward this. The "posers" are in general not an immediate danger. They are very useful because they can lead to the real danger.
Again, when we say "remotely suspected", we don't even speak about them. We speak about any kind of muslims. In France, after november 13, a lot of people (+10 000) were found to be " suspected of extremism" and where the one watched by anti-terrorism police. Some of them turned out to not even being muslim in the first place, others where ultra-conservative preachers which were on ISIS hit list.
This brought to light that the REAL terrorists were not in that list and it was the broadening of the definition of "extremism" that facilitate the works of the terrorist. If you're gonna put everybody who get off jail with a big beard, you'll end with 99.99 % of people who don't have anything to do with terrorism. People don't realize that we're speaking about hundreds of potential terrorists in midst of millions of "visible" muslims. And they are often less "visible" than the average muslim.

The uncomfortable truth is that we will never be able to fully defeat terrorism. You have to maintain a balance between security and liberty, because we will never achieve full security. Our antiterrorist services is stopping dozen of attacks each years and it's pretty amazing. We don't need some populist call who would make their jobs harder.
 
As bad as these individuals are, you can't lock up people who didn't actually do something wrong (yet), and you can't let THOSE individuals shape our society.

Also - reactions right after terrible events like this are rarely nuanced and unlikely to bring good solutions for the future.

This is pretty mild to the reactions on this forum to Brexit. I've seen calls for all old people to die or at least get their voting rights denied. Like this gem:

Sign me the fuck up when the riots start. Let's Bastille Day some Baby Boomer Tory cunts.

Let's bring some medievalists social punishments back.

Hey Theresa we had a referendum, and the will of the British public is we tie you to a fast car and see how long you last.

The call to murder, in especially cruel and painful way people of a different political opinion and the Prime Minister were met with cheers and approval.
 

fanboi

Banned
I feel it's more important than ever in today's world to control emotions every time an act of domestic terrorism happens instead of overreacting and spewing nonsense, and then trying to normalize it. If that makes me the bad guy so be it. Yes it's fucking horrific that someone suicide bombed a concert with tons of teenagers. It's unacceptable. But the desire to jump to conclusions and to react by wanting extreme retaliation without regards to proper due process is dangerous thinking that can no longer be responded to with "it's normal to feel this way" because it shouldn't be normal.

But you jumped to conclusions yourself against that poster.
 

E-phonk

Banned
This is pretty mild to the reactions on this forum to Brexit. I've seen calls for all old people to die or at least get their voting rights denied. Like this gem

I don't care about brexit (I'm from Belgium and I think it was a stupid decision that will lead to no good for either the UK or the EU - and it is a sign of times that dumb retoric is able to win from well thought out arguments and discussions), or how people on a forum responded to it.

All i want to say is that when something like this happens, people often give extreme reactions that in practice aren't the best solutions to the problems at hand.
You can't lock up people pre-emptively unless when they show real intent. You can't deport people just because they have different thoughts (about religion/society/etc).
 

Sevenfold

Member
Everyone take a breather and let's keep this thread healthy with regards to the terrible incident. Im sure there are enough other threads to discuss the political sides of things in greater detail.

Yeah please. UK GAF are still waking to this news.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Just up and confirmation of a suicide bombing :( As much as such words are needed when an attack happens such as "we won't let terrorism defeat us" and "unity everyone", try being the parent/family of a child killed.

This will undoubtedly increase political support for the Conservative Party and Brexit due to the kind of unrest these attacks cause. They simply keep happening in Europe and not long ago in London.
 

ittoryu

Member
I'd rather be deported than blown up. Besides, the secret services have a pretty good handle on who the key players are. They likely want to keep close tabs on them so allow them to stay.
Where are you going to deport them if they are British Citizens like the one in the Westminster attack?
I just wish this shit wouldn't be posted in such threads, because it's embarassing.
 

Oregano

Member
Heading to work now. Might have to make a detour depending on how big the cordon is.

There was probably a lot of people from work at the concert. Hope everyone is okay.:/

It's all so surreal...
 

duckroll

Member
But you jumped to conclusions yourself against that poster.

I don't think I did. He literally came back to reply that I should not be labeling people who voted for Brexit "nutjobs" (which I in fact did not), and that that I was extremist for calling the current UK government a bunch of shitstains. I stand by those statements and don't think they are unjustified. The climate of irrational fear is what contributed to Brexit, and that was what I was saying. At no point did I suggest people who voted leave were nutjobs, but that it was a result of this toxic climate. I said he came back to defend those two things, which he... did. I did not even suggest he voted leave. :p
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Extreme reaction isn't the same as being an extremist. You know that. It's understandable to have extreme reactions to shocking events. Quite ironic how your own reaction is also extreme and yet you can't see it. You're labelling everyone who voted leave a nutjob and the UK government shitstains. Showing your true colours.
Um, I'd argue that it is very much so.

Extremism is very much an extreme reaction to the world around you. Extremists see perceived injustice and want to fight against it.

You wanting people deported on "the slightest" suspicion of extremism is part of the cycle of extremism. And yes, duckroll is also showing how the loop continues.

My partner is from Manchester and still has relatives there. I couldn't sleep once I found out what happened.

Hatred begets hatred and we need to stop, all of us. Terrorism wins when the response is to pick a fight. We need to show not only that we won't be swayed but that we should never hate our fellows in society. Disagree, argue and debate sure, but we need to stop hate. There is only one endgame to hatred and we just saw it.

For the sake of everyone stop trying to find what divides us all the fucking time and come together as people against violence and hatred.
I don't think I did. He literally came back to reply that I should not be labeling people who voted for Brexit "nutjobs" (which I in fact did not), and that that I was extremist for calling the current UK government a bunch of shitstains. I stand by those statements and don't think they are unjustified. The climate of irrational fear is what contributed to Brexit, and that was what I was saying. At no point did I suggest people who voted leave were nutjobs, but that it was a result of this toxic climate. I said he came back to defend those two things, which he... did. I did not even suggest he voted leave. :p
With respect, hateful language leads to hateful actions. Your politicking is not welcome at this time, whether you feel justified in your words of not.
 

fanboi

Banned
I don't think I did. He literally came back to reply that I should not be labeling people who voted for Brexit "nutjobs" (which I in fact did not), and that that I was extremist for calling the current UK government a bunch of shitstains. I stand by those statements and don't think they are unjustified. The climate of irrational fear is what contributed to Brexit, and that was what I was saying. At no point did I suggest people who voted leave were nutjobs, but that it was a result of this toxic climate. I said he came back to defend those two things, which he... did. I did not even suggest he voted leave. :p

That was how I interpreted it, but good, let us move on then!
 

Deja

Member
I think the killing of innocent civilians on any side is completely abhorrent, but it hits so much harder when it is the city you grew up in.

I have friends who work for ShowSec at the Arena but thankfully they were not working last night. People using this to spin their own political beliefs in this thread when 22 people have just lost their lives is absolutely sickening. Let's just give it a rest for a day and try to process this horrible tragedy as best we can.

Love be to you all, regardless of your policial beliefs.
 

Meadows

Banned
I don't think I did. He literally came back to reply that I should not be labeling people who voted for Brexit "nutjobs" (which I in fact did not), and that that I was extremist for calling the current UK government a bunch of shitstains. I stand by those statements and don't think they are unjustified. The climate of irrational fear is what contributed to Brexit, and that was what I was saying. At no point did I suggest people who voted leave were nutjobs, but that it was a result of this toxic climate. I said he came back to defend those two things, which he... did. I did not even suggest he voted leave. :p

Bro, I'm trying to get news about a terrorist attack that happened less than 250m away from my apartment, can you leave this shit out of the thread.

Nobody gives a good god damn what you think about those issues, we're trying to come to terms with an attack on our country, city or in my case immediate vicinity.
 

oipic

Member
Truly horrible, and impossible to make sense of. I wish strength upon those affected, closely or not, who now have to live through this, and find a way to move on. :(

It really hits hard that there is practically no obtainable end-game with this, that there's no stopping it, no sitting down to reason and work through differences - just... more of this. So saddening.
 

Sevenfold

Member
I too advocate the deportation of all Canadians.

Are red usernames mods?

Edit:

0161 856 9400. Missing relatives?
#MissingInManchester

I've heard John Humphries discuss all sorts of horrid things on Radio 4's Today programme and this morning was the closest I've heard him get to breaking. He's taken calls from parents with children still missing. BBC radio is a cut above.
 
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