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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)

Probably the first time I've ever agreed with Trump on anything. If we sensationalize terrorism, we are playing right into their hands.

You're giving him way too much credit. In Trump's mind people are either Winners like himself, or Losers like everyone else. During the Republican Primary it was the number one jab he made at his opponents, that they were always losing and were losers. He doesn't use any other terminology because he is incapable of it given his clearly limited vocabulary (he does use the best words though) and from what I've seen and heard complete misunderstanding of the causes and effects of Terrorism at a basic level.

Stop It said:

That is what you call them. They aren't noble, they aren't pious, they aren't heroes or martyrs, they are cowards attacking innocent civilians to try and win a fight they will never even come close to winning in the name of a God who would never approve of their tactics.
 

dc89

Member
Fucking sucks. We all knew the UK would be attacked sooner or later. Even when I get on the tube lately it's been playing on my mind. Unbelievable that kids going to an Ariana concert have to face this shit.

Also, wtf were people thinking with this balloon talk.

To be honest, I was hoping it was a speaker blowing when the initial reports happened last night and the ambulances were going to deal with a panic and a crush.

I think the fact people wanted it to be a balloon or speaker is testament to the fact the first thing that doesn't come into our heads when we have an 'incident' is a terror attack in a city that is dear to so many people. If that makes sense.
 
What do they hope to gain out of this you ask?

The terrorist from IS and the middle east pretty much only want one thing.

For you to suffer as they have suffered.
 

jelly

Member
There really isn't a solution other than coming together and education. Ruining the way we live isn't the answer, painting a group of people with a broad brush certainly isn't. It might sound weak but long term that's the answer. I hope people don't fall for hate which will make it way worse.
 

hodgy100

Member
You'll get a lot of different responses to this. Some would say it's all self-defence against western imperialism. I wish I believed that (I did in the years after 9/11), but unfortunately I now think that's a leftist academic's beer goggles view of the situation. "Everything was economic inequality", they say.

Personally, the answer I'd present at this point is: desperate and humiliated* Muslims turned to a back-to-basics vision of Islam... and it's important to remember how Islam was in its first centuries. It was a God-sanctioned form of government that was considered "destined" to rule over the old world (including and especially Europe, where it was presumed to "patch" the outdated corruption of God's word that was Christendom). Muslims were very surprised when they were halted in their conquering of Europe at the Battle of Tours, because their eventual dominance over that land was promised by God. And they've grown increasingly confused by Islam's more recent shrinking dominance in the world, considering it contradicts what God promised them.

*So while these radical Muslims might have been made destitute and susceptible to extremist thinking by the humiliation of western imperialism (that's a side question), their ideology is not to strike back at the West, per se, but to restore Islam to political dominance on the earth. The West is merely the main obstacle to this project. They have a black and white reading of their religion, and it claims to be political destiny for the earth. They're working to make it happen. And terrorist attacks are the limited means they have to push the world in this direction. It seems like a small and futile stone throw at a giant.... but who knows, they've already moved governments rightward and divided us, so who knows if it's a bad strategy for their goals....

eh I still think terrorism against the west is a backlash out at western imperialism and meddling in the west. the turn to "back to basics islam" can largely be attributed to again our meddling, proxy wars and other civil wars in the middle east, eroding their society resulting is worse education for newer generations.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
As the post below yours points out, attacks like these have happened long before this particular band of religious crazies started doing them. There's a lot of dickheads out there.

Exactly. This might be the new normal for the US, but it's same old same old for Manchester. I went to school there, and I still remember the IRA bombings. Which helps me be pretty much immune to the idea that this is an Islam thing. Last time anyone tried to blow me up they were white and at least nominally Christian, and I've seen people on this message board supporting them.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I am sorry, I disagree with ''Back-to-basics Islam''. Today's Islam is no different than when the Islam was incepted. Extremist always existed after Prophets death. They are called ''Khawarij'' and they always caused fear, not only in western civilization at the time, but also amongst muslims.

I'm not saying "back to basics" means it's "original Islam"... a group of men interpreting Islam in a new extremist fashion in the 20th century surely isn't original.

But it's a form of interpretation that interprets Islam in very rigid way that isn't interested in liberal nuances, and looks very simplistically at the early history of expansionist Islam and says "we're not done yet. All of this belongs to us".

And to be frank, early Muslims did think Europe would belong to them. So it's not a stretch that an extremist might look at that classic presumption and run with it.
 

Irminsul

Member
So no organization taking responsibility yet? I find that odd.
I think it took quite a while after the Berlin attack for anyone to claim responsibility, even though the perpetrator was somewhat connected within Islamistic circles (as we know now). I just checked it, the attack happened on 19 December in the afternoon, the responsibility claim was issued on 20 December in the late evening.
 

T.O.P

Banned
Trump's doing a speech with the Palestinian president and made the comment that the people responsable for the attack are "losers in life" and that he wouldn't call them monsters because they would like that. Instead he will refer to them as "Losers".

Not bad
 

BADMAN

Member
He's right you know.

Part of the power of terrorism is the almost mythological power we give them. The fear they crave to shape our lives and to change our way of life because of them is exactly what they want.

They're not losers, they're scum. Cowards who can't win argument with the most powerful weapons, words so resort to the weakness of destruction. We need to stand up for what is right, by showing that we will never change because of them.

Yeah that's pretty much how I feel about it. The only negative I felt was using the word losers. It also had something to do with the way he said it, but it seemed a bit too childish. I probably would have stuck with scum or cowards, that's just me though.
 

Auctopus

Member
What do they hope to gain out of this you ask?

The terrorist from IS and the middle east pretty much only want one thing.

For you to suffer as they have suffered.

Destablisation in the West. Which they've partially succeeded in seeing as thinly-veiled racism regarding immigration policies saturated Brexit and the US Election.

The best thing to do is to carry on with your daily lives as best you can.
 

Sevenfold

Member
I think it's pretty self-explanatory in pointing out the ridiculousness of "feeling safe" warranting deportation of brown Muslim British citizens on the unsubstantiated presumption this is a brown Muslim. And the lack of similar responses when heinous acts of terror are committed by other ethnic and religious groups, given nobody anywhere suddenly thought the Quebecois suspect as a group after that attack.

But perhaps your mileage may vary.
Yeah you know what that's clearly the case. I don't care what colour the bomber was.


The members post does nothing that warrants deletion beyond simply being nonsensical.
What I do or don't delete isn't really your concern regardless.

Still my disappointment remains.
Let's leave it there.
 
Destablisation in the West. Which they've partially succeeded in seeing as thinly-veiled racism regarding immigration policies saturated Brexit and the US Election.

The best thing to do is to carry on with your daily lives as best you can.

You're over thinking it, that's ancillary to them mate. They don't want to die alone, they don't want to bury alone. They want you to join them in their death.
 
I think it's pretty self-explanatory in pointing out the ridiculousness of "feeling safe" warranting deportation of brown Muslim British citizens on the unsubstantiated presumption this is a brown Muslim. And the lack of similar responses when heinous acts of terror are committed by other ethnic and religious groups, given nobody anywhere suddenly thought the Quebecois suspect as a group after that attack.

But perhaps your mileage may vary.

The members post does nothing that warrants deletion beyond simply being nonsensical.
What I do or don't delete isn't really your concern regardless.

This thread is moving pretty fast so hard to follow but I hope it's not my post you're referring to. I made a rash statement but I don't think I brought colour into it. I'm well aware that terrorists are not defined by colour. I lived in London's docklands in 1995/6 and the windows of my flat were blown out by the IRA bomb at South Quay. Please put my reaction down to someone who should have had a coffee and taken in the news before reaching for my phone.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
eh I still think terrorism against the west is a backlash out at western imperialism and meddling in the west. the turn to "back to basics islam" can largely be attributed to again our meddling, proxy wars and other civil wars in the middle east, eroding their society resulting is worse education for newer generations.

Perhaps western imperialism was the trigger. Let's grant for the sake of argument that it is. But do you think ISIS in their own minds think "we're just freedom fighters pushing back against unjust political dominance over our lands?"

There's some of that in there... but it's not the prime mission. That's not what they're obsessed with.

Maybe it's imperialism that shook them up, but in their own words and deeds, their backlash manifests in the form of a people who want a Caliphate established over the world, with any and all world power challengers (first and foremost the West) subdued.
 
completely depraved and barbaric. nothing else to say really. Islamic extremist terrorists will lose in the end, but i fear it will take many decades and that this is just what Europe is like now for the time being..

i wanted to go to London for the first time this summer, to go see Tom Petty with my gf, perhaps the last chance to see him play on this continent. yeah.. definitely not going. it's in Hyde Park, large outdoor area with thousands of people. just nope. i would be in a constant panic attack.
 

Preezy

Member
They aren't noble, they aren't pious, they aren't heroes or martyrs, they are cowards attacking innocent civilians to try and win a fight they will never even come close to winning in the name of a God who would never approve of their tactics.
Have you read the Bible? God would totally approve of this kind of thing. In fact, he does encourages it, several times.
 

Seiryoden

Member
22 dead. I was in Barton Arcade when the IRA phoned in the warning for the Market Street bomb. These people give no warnings because they want to kill, though what glory a god may receive from the torn bodies of children is beyond my imagining. British muslim communities will face a tough time going forward which is precisely what these fanatics want, division and prejudice being two stalwart recruiting sergeants for their death cult.

Once the glass and concrete was swept away following the IRA bomb, modern Manchester rose up. I fear nothing so positive can follow this outrage.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
A gaffer said his wife and daughter went to the concert and he couldn't get through to them, are they okay?

He did say they were okay :)

I'm not sure where in the thread it is, but he said they were okay and I quoted him thankfully.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
A gaffer said his wife and daughter went to the concert and he couldn't get through to them, are they okay?

here's the two people who posted last night

Just spoke to my mate who's wife and daughter were there. They're safe, but he was suggesting what they saw wasn't just a bang and a stampede.

Partner and daughter are back home.
They were there when the explosion went off. Was a huge explosion that set people off running and screaming. They were right near the exit so got out sharpish.
Was noted that bag search wasn't very thorough, with only 1 person per entrance.
 
completely depraved and barbaric. nothing else to say really. Islamic extremist terrorists will lose in the end, but i fear it will take many decades and that this is just what Europe is like now for the time being..

i wanted to go to London for the first time this summer, to go see Tom Petty with my gf, perhaps the last chance to see him play on this continent. yeah.. definitely not going. it's in Hyde Park, large outdoor area with thousands of people. just nope. i would be in a constant panic attack.

Just go, have fun and enjoy the show. You are at far more risk from a general motorist than any muppet with a twisted ideology.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
In all seriousness, and with much naivety, may I ask someone to please explain (like I'm five) just what it might take to end this madness?

Does the West simply have to stop meddling in Middle Eastern affairs? What's the end-game? Terrorists are hitting out against the West, yes, but to what specific purpose or end? What was this perpetrator trying to achieve, what might his 'message' have been?


I can't but feel there is no end to this, and instead, that this just continues on... and in a week or two we'll be in another thread having a similar discussion. So terribly sad, and it feels like a helpless situation.

IMHO, what terrorist want is to plant fear and despair on their targets, that's all. That makes them feel important and powerful and that they are harming their enemies. They often state specific goals, such as independence of a state (ex: IRA, ETA), but Daesh's goal is to conquer (much of) the world, which even they should know is not feasible. So, their only goal is to make you feel fearful. Yes, is that petty.
 

legend166

Member
Trump's doing a speech with the Palestinian president and made the comment that the people responsable for the attack are "losers in life" and that he wouldn't call them monsters because they would like that. Instead he will refer to them as "Losers".

Ha, I actually like this a lot. In reality these people are pathetic losers. We see it all the time.
 

E-phonk

Banned
Thank you.

Man the emergency services were on point.

Agree - as far as we as outsiders could see the emergency services were there very quickly and were immediately taking the right decisions.

Also glad the gaffers family members (that we know of) are ok.
 
Man I start to sound like a dirty terrorist sympathiser when I try to rationalise the "why they do this".

We've been at war with the middle east in some way or another for so long now guys.

For so long. Over 30 years now? There are people over there that all they've known and lived is death and destruction.

I would advocate trying to apply different methods to the turmoil. That's about it.

This is a war of attrition. And it won't stop if we continue on with the same methods.
 

nOoblet16

Member
I almost went to the concert just accompany my friend cause she didn't want to go alone, but I decided against it cause I don't listen to Ariana Grande. Thankfully she is ok.

It's terrible and frightening how close it is and how close I was to being there.
 

kinggroin

Banned
They considered the Emperor a God, and that their family name would be honoured with their sacrifice.

Fanatical belief prioritising death over life, both the Kamikaze and suicide bombers of today share that in common.


You and buddy above are stretching the argument too much. You specifically called out an afterlife, with a lead towards religion.

Please don't be obtuse just to win a pedantic argument, you have to understand my point, especially given your reply. Suicide bombing is less religious afterlife, and more glorification of a cause. The catalyst can absolutely be substituted with a well spoken "God" Emperor.


Again, it's imperative that religion be scrutinized so that we understand it's role in THIS particular case, but let's not generalize here; it gives it way too much credit.
 

Trokil

Banned
IMHO, what terrorist want is to plant fear and despair on their targets, that's all. That makes them feel important and powerful and that they are harming their enemies. They often state specific goals, such as independence of a state (ex: IRA, ETA), but Daesh's goal is to conquer (much of) the world, which even they should know is not feasible. So, their only goal is to make you feel fearful. Yes, is that petty.

The IRA comparison should really stop, it is something completely different and trying to mix this is up is falsification of history. Stop this cultural relativism and also lecturing the British about Brexit during a time like this has to stop, because it at least very, very bad taste.
 

faridmon

Member
I'm not saying "back to basics" means it's "original Islam"... a group of men interpreting Islam in a new extremist fashion in the 20th century surely isn't original.

But it's a form of interpretation that interprets Islam in very rigid way that isn't interested in liberal nuances, and looks very simplistically at the early history of expansionist Islam and says "we're not done yet. All of this belongs to us".

and to be frank, early Muslims did think Europe would belong to them. So it's not a stretch that an extremist might look at that classic presumption and run with it.[/QUOTE]

So did Ceaser, Napoleon and other leaders of huge empire. Muslim empire was large and though it would expand into Europe, there is nothing extremist about that.

These sick fucks are just deluded people who want to terrorize people, and using that as an excuse. There is no interpretations of Islam based on anything, these are just excuses.

Also, can you explain this 'liberal nuances'' when it comes to practicing the religion? I wouldn't call my parents liberals, but ain't no hell are they extrimists
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Man I start to sound like a dirty terrorist sympathiser when I try to rationalise the "why they do this".

We've been at war with the middle east in some way or another for so long now guys.

For so long. Over 30 years now? There are people over there that all they've known and lived is death and destruction.

I would advocate trying to apply different methods to the turmoil. That's about it.

This is a war of attrition. And it won't stop if we continue on with the same methods.
Just take care that whatever "new methods" you advocate aren't the same ones the terrorists were hoping to provoke by their action in the first place.
 

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
The IRA comparison should really stop, it is something completely different and trying to mix this is up is falsification of history. Stop this cultural relativism and also lecturing the British about Brexit during a time like this, because it at least very, very bad taste.

Huh? Where did I mentioned Brexit?
 
Perhaps western imperialism was the trigger. Let's grant for the sake of argument that it is. But do you think ISIS in their own minds think "we're just freedom fighters pushing back against unjust political dominance over our lands?"

There's some of that in there... but it's not the prime mission. That's not what they're obsessed with.

Maybe it's imperialism that shook them up, but in their own words and deeds, their backlash manifests in the form of a people who want a Caliphate established over the world, with any and all world power challengers (first and foremost the West) subdued.

Would IS exist without the US and UK entering Iraq?

You can't just dismiss the consequences of an action because you've decided they aren't a factor any more.
 

azyless

Member
Man I start to sound like a dirty terrorist sympathiser when I try to rationalise the "why they do this".

We've been at war with the middle east in some way or another for so long now guys.

For so long. Over 30 years now? There are people over there that all they've known and lived is death and destruction.

I would advocate trying to apply different methods to the turmoil. That's about it.

This is a war of attrition. And it won't stop if we continue on with the same methods.
The European citizens who've been committing these acts have never known war of any kind.
 

nOoblet16

Member
Trump's doing a speech with the Palestinian president and made the comment that the people responsable for the attack are "losers in life" and that he wouldn't call them monsters because they would like that. Instead he will refer to them as "Losers".
This is actually...good.

Because by calling them monsters we put this identity on them that they are not human beings and instil fear, which is what they would want. When in reality they are people like us but with twisted mentality.
 
I'm a bit too young to remember the IRA years - didn't they just cause more destruction rather than go for mass killings? I thought when they bombed the Arndale they rang up to warn about it etc.
 
Slightly game-related aside to this awful event- Tom Philips from Eurogamer tweeted last night about how awful it was, and the only reply to his tweet was by this guy implying that if it was a terrorist attack, there would be some sort of white uprising against muslims and immigrants etc.

I look at this guy's profile and he's a full on racist, retweeting English Defence League, white power stuff etc, so I reply to him and call him out for hijacking a terrible event for far right political gain. Anyway, a few minutes later I try to find Tom Philip's original tweet and... he's blocked me. Like, a journalist from Eurogamer blocked me because I confronted someone else for being racist. If he was annoyed by the tweet notifications, he could have just muted me- the blocking implies he agrees with the Islamophobia being spewed by the racist guy.
 
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