Horrific. I can't imagine how her family must be feeling.
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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)
- Thread starter E-phonk
- Start date
Horrific. I can't imagine how her family must be feeling.
Fucking hell what news to wake up to.
RIP to the victims. My thoughts are with their families today.
Hang in their ManchesterGAF.
In connection with last night or with the evacuation this morning?
RIP to the victims. My thoughts are with their families today.
Hang in their ManchesterGAF.
In connection with last night or with the evacuation this morning?
Eastern too, given they've tried to scrub the history of regions they've occupied. People that occupied it earlier (Muslims) celebrated thier roots (Palmyra, Bhuddist monuments) etc
Audioboxer
Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-manchester-40007967
edit: See below, police apparently saying they think its unrelated.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, actually you're right. Might be two separate arrests, and the one at Arndale is unrelated. Would be strange for a tweet one minute later to have been long enough to debunk the first arrest.
i understand where you're coming from - but i don't see how there's a big difference.
The primary goal of this attack wasn't to "kill children", i think. But to cause terror, fear and hatred. - "XYZ confirmed dead children" isn't the end goal. The aftermath is.
The attacker wilfully sacrificed the lives of children to assassinate the spirit and sense of security of members of western countries.
Drone attacks sacrificed the lives of children to assassinate key figures in the war against terror.
Also, even if we were to be nitpicky about "on purpose", does it make a difference if i punch you in the arm, or if i flail my arms wildly while walking towards you? One's on purpose, the other is consciously accepting the pain in your arm as collateral damage.
I don't think either is more morally just than the other.
Woo-Fu
Banned
It isn't weird or a head scratcher. It is about oil. It has always been about oil.
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...why-the-us-is-stuck-with-saudi-arabia/384805/
Audioboxer
Member
https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/866971784947671040
This is why they do not release names 'early'. They'll be going after his circles of contacts/family/friends, or if he's on a watchlist anyone else in the area on it.
That's not the Arndale one then? As it has been cleared as looking unrelated.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Oh I think it matters a great deal.
There is a big sadistic, desperate, unthinkable difference between killing kids on purpose for reasons of terroristic political motivation, and doing it by accident in the name of neutralizing enemies.
Intention matters greatly. I want to know if people are really acting in self-defence, killing thugs who want to kill them and accidentally killing the kids that surround them, or trying to kill kids as a primary goal to illicit a negative psychological response in the population. BIG difference.
I agree. We shouldn't ignore why these things happen. I think that's why we're talking right now. Why did this happen? I'm obsessed with "why??"!
But the answer isn't "it's always the West's imperial aggression promoting self-defence". That's a simple dogma that just doesn't hold up under the light of day.
Western Imperialism is an offensive giant that occasionally steps on the toes of innocent Islamic society... but Islamic society also contains a dangerous, primitive, ancient set of tendencies which constantly leads them to attack Western powers because they are the challengers to their presumed pre-eminence over world thought.
The correct answer to this conundrum is "both are bad". But there is a kind of disturbing irrational fanaticism to the Islamic fanatic which is not present in the merely callous and self-interested Western imperialist.
If you think bombs are the only solutions to conflict as peace then you have an incredibly narrow worldview.
Obviously there are other ways to help. Diplomacy, trade, conversation, political agreements, peace keeping forces, etc. or how about maybe take some refugees instead? I'm sure people would appreciate that solution much more than being bombed in the name of peace and liberation
No idea why this conversation is in this thread.
SyenceLabb
Member
Wait. So you actually believe the intent of an actor doesn't affect the morality of the action being taken? What?
How do you have a conversation with someone who wants to see Islam as the global religion, with all non-believers either being killed or put into slavery? How does that conversation play out?
Not to the families of those killed there isn't a difference. They aren't going to think "oh my kid died so they could get the baddies. Thats OK"
Of course both are bad. I'm not trying to handwave the attack or its motivations. I'm not saying anyone affected by the attack deserves it. I want to discuss what a long term solution to these attacks would be. because as much as people want revenge, that is not the solution. A proper solution probably involves helping middle eastern countries back into stability, aka fixing the mess we started, which is where my ranting of western intervention and imperialism comes from.
ClosingADoor
Member
Pretty hard to negotiate with terrorists in this case. Peace keeping forces are soldiers, who shoot when someone attacks. And to get them in, you first need to drive the terrorists from the land.
And taking refugees? So we should just accept these terrorist are driving people from their homes and say: sucks for you, guess you should leave and live here now.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yes, there's a difference.
You are going to treat me differently if I ran over your child by accident, or intentionally stabbed her.
CharmingCharlie
Member
Erm no, just no if you kill someone's child they are not going to give a shit whether it was intentional/unintentional or whether it was an accident/on purpose. All they are going to care about is you killed their child and they will hate you for it.
BossDarkseid
Member
.......so if you accidentally kill someone's child are you expecting them to be like "Well, it was an accident...." what is this...
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Specifically to the families, sure, but there still is a difference.
I'd think slightly different about them. Especially if it was my kid running into traffic or something. I'd still be destroyed, but I wouldn't hold as much vitriol towards the person.
Two different incidents
ExitPotato
Neo Member
You don't have a conversation with those people, you have the conversation with the people they want to convert before they get to them. You don't just wipe out the group as it will only work to create a successor group. A group based entirely on warfare and mass-murder-suicide terrorism is not sustainable if it can't recruit more members.
Business
Member
So we call it even then? This equation is exactly the same one the brainwashed morons that blow themselves up in the name of religion will do. Fucking disgusting.
Muffin1611
Banned
It's more like running his child over in order to also run over the criminal behind it.
Another western invasion doesn't do shit and will have the same effects as it had with afghanistan and iraq.
The ME problem will never be solved until arab nations (especially saudi arabia and the other gulf states) step up and take care of the problem themselves.
As someone who made a tour in afghanistan i can tell you the problem will never be over until there is a collective backlash against wahabism.
Unfortunately the Saudis will not step up until the west finally starts to pressure them instead of selling them arms.
We can send another million soldiers to the ME but it won't solve the problems.
There is also something very different between a traffic accident and dropping bombs and killing civilians in the process.
a traffic accident has no intent to kill people.
You drop bombs to kill people, there is a completely different intent, you can't drop bombs, kill multiple innocents in the process and say "oh I'm sorry you were in range of the bomb". The onus is on the attacker to make sure that doesn't happen.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
For sure, I disagree with his analogy completely. Just not that I wouldn't feel any different in those two proposed scenarios. Which is, admittedly, a useless point given the context of the conversation.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Is there yet a concept called "discussion creep" where the topic eventually devolves into people having to defend points that are far from what they were originally talking about?
So yeah if you want to talk about that.... families will forgive an accidental death to their loved one more than an intentional one. Like... duh. It happens all the time that a family feels bad for the person who accidentally ran over their daughter, to a greater degree than a family forgives the intentional murderer of their daughter.
But that is NOT the point being discussed here, and don't you dare think it is. The comparison is between the merits of this terrorist attack meant to kill innocent children on purpose, and a western attack that is meant to kill military targets but will kill innocent children as an unfortunate necessarily. Huge moral difference. And one does not justify the other.
True.
It's pure whattsbouttism, and it has no place in this thread.
If someone wants to talk about that they should kindly gtfo out of this thread and start another one.
By diplomacy and negotiation, pressuring state actors to stop supplying ISIS or assisting others with domestic anti-terrorism efforts would definitely have an effect. Just think it through.
A judge will.
sorry for getting so worked up. I shouldnt be concentrating on the effect on international politics. I'm just scared at where things are going because of attacks like these.
I am truly saddened for those affected by this.
ClosingADoor
Member
Agreed. But considering the Middle-east countries can't get their shit together also, there will always be that call for the West to stop in when things go wrong. Look at Libya and Syria. Do we let them murder each other, or try to at least protect some people there. It's an impossible task either way.
The solution needs to come from within, but that is going to be a very hard if not impossible process at this rate.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I probably should have said that like an hour ago ;P
| Praxis |
Banned
It doesn't. You can only maintain a certain amount of civility when they're cutting your head off because you don't believe in their bullshit.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
No no, it's completely fine. These types of threads it's expected to see emotions flaring. I was getting into it last night.
They should be imprisoned for hate speech and incitement of violence. imo
We all want the same thing at the end of the day.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Anyone have a rundown of any new information that happened overnight? I was keeping up until around 11pm EST.
Tell a mod. It's a large thread, and there's branching discussions. If they find it to be out of hand, I'm sure they'll step in.
Tell a mod. It's a large thread, and there's branching discussions. If they find it to be out of hand, I'm sure they'll step in.
This might not be the most popular opinion for people in the west but unless the gulf states step up the wests best bet would be western friendly(or atleast neutral) strongmen(Like Gaddafi or Sadam) who atleast can keep their countries stable. Of course people will scream about human rights and our democratic values but i think we should abandon the idea that every country necessarily has to be a western democracy.
Audioboxer
Member
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Thank you sir
mindatlarge
Member
What a terrible and heartbreaking incident for those involved directly, for those in the area now living in fear and for humankind as a whole. My heart goes out to all those families who are morning a loss of a loved one this morning or are currently still missing in all the chaos. To the users in the area, please stay safe and use caution.
It's an inconvenient truth that brutal dictators (particularly secular ones like Saddam and Gaddafi) helped keep rogue terrorist organisations in check. Sure they caused the West some minor bother, but they weren't ever a threat to our daily way of life. Better the devil you know, I guess...
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Shocking.
Apparently their statement doesn't say it was suicide attack, curious.