Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Yes, this is how every war works, after a certain scale. You're advocating for pacifism, which will generally end up with children killed by the non-pacifist side.
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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)
- Thread starter E-phonk
- Start date
Audioboxer
Member
Confirmation of a controlled explosion in case anyone reads anything online
DirtyLarry
Member
Pretty simply put (as I agree) when you have nothing at all you have nothing to lose.
In fact I think you can look at a majority of the world's problems today and trace them back to this sentiment. Those with nothing to lose will start doing things that reflect that mindset.
It is here (surprised it's common for you) your British and not considered an immigrant, nor are you included in statistics regarding immigration. We talk of generations but don't consider those who are generations in to be immigrants.
Kill Your Masters
Member
I am well aware of what that shit did, and the only positive is that he is gone.
Everything else though is an absolute mess.
Replace unwarranted with absolutely amateurish. The US replaced one big evil with a lot of small ones and everything around started to crumble, and they certainly didn't went in because of how Saddam treats his people. You can't force democracy.
KZObsessed
Member
Whalley Range, Fallowfield and Chorlton. I've lived in all those places. Crazy.
Those events happened 20 years before US and UK invaded and fucked up the entire country. And then helped to destabilise the rest of the entire region.
All the countries were better off previously, nothing like they are now.
Absolutely incredible people are still pushing how the Iraq war was the right call.
Want to do the right thing? Intervene in a country that desperately needed it. Like Sudan. Don't instigate fucking civil wars to install puppet regimes in stable countries.
plagiarize
Banned
I hope it's clear I didn't mean anything by it. I am dreading the inevitable stories of innocent Brits getting attacked because some idiot thought they looked Muslim today, as if compounding senseless violence with senseless violence doesn't make it worse.
I consider anyone who considers the UK their home, to be British, wherever they were born.
excelsiorlef
Member
Yeah in Canada it's usually phrased as first/second/third/etc... generation Canadian.
I don't think we could have done anything to prevent the current state of the Middle East after invading Iraq short of a long term presence of troops in country ala Germany after WWII. We didn't (and still don't) have the political support at home or in the region for that.
Obviously we shouldn't have gone in.
Muffin1611
Banned
I also think that the poster is going too far in weighing these equally.
But this discussion started as a question of why do these attacks happen. And the answer is, additionally to Middle Eastern countries not doing enough about it, the US bombing these countries to kill key terrorists. And they're killing innocent bystanders in the process. "Accidentally" really isn't the word I would use. Neither is "on purpose". They're pretty much accepting of it, and to the family and friends of the victims the moral difference doesn't really matter. It just radicalizes them.
I do think it's worthy to be conscious of that, to have a better understanding of the causes, and the means that definitely won't stop this.
And also to be conscious of the fact that while we Europeans are having killed dozens in these attacks, our Middle Eastern neighbours are having killed hundreds and thousands on a regular basis. There's a moral difference, of course. But the difference in reaction to these deeds by the general public and the media really can't be explained by that moral difference.
That's all I wanted to add to this discussion.
plagiarize
Banned
Intent matters in our legal system and our moral judgements. It always has.
Of course no need to explain yourself, you were clear previously​
#Solidarity with allMuffin1611
Banned
I didn't say the opposite.
Edit: Or maybe I read that wrong and you just wanted to add that to my post? I agree with you, anyway.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Oh, wasn't necessarily speaking to my own experience, just explaining the phrasing.
As to matter of whether or not one is considered British if they are descended of immigrants, I would say that experience varies across the country. Trying to define such in 'generations' does feel a bit awkward on the tongue though.
Audioboxer
Member
True, I think that concept can also go ways to explain why when we aren't talking terrorism, but even just behaviour online, so much of the anger/resentment and what we refer to as 'trolling' these days is males. Generalising a bit, but I bet if we were to know who a lot of the anonymous avatars saying terrible shit online to other people were, it would largely be males feeling "stuck in a rut". There can be truths that many young males, largely talking teenagers, can go through stages of issues with aggression and hormones. However, putting that aside when we start to see people in their 20's/30's and later behaving terribly on the internet (not just 14-year-old Halo smack talk), you can bet it is still males, and many of whom have poor life/job prospects. Poor sexual/partner prospects also kick up behavioural issues. This is true even with terrorists. Many will fit the category of not just males, but single males. I honestly think with promises that involve a sexual nature in an afterlife are stimulating such minds too. As much as everyone in modern pop culture makes jokes about virgins in the afterlife, the truth behind the power of such a concept may well be far more sinister.
Honestly, a lot of the nitty gritty psychology and exploration of behaviour and the minds behind actions as extreme as terrorism down to actions unacceptable online, have many ties. Trying to find ways to combat all of it is something that has no simple answer at all. All answers it does have as well are multi-faceted. So many things we need to try and do, from education to security. We just have to look at the trends though, nearly always males, and then often it will be males with poor life prospects and as I said in this post often single or with little romantic/sexual contact with others. Crimes committed of a sexual nature throughout history are littered through all religious faiths, wars and acts of aggression or power from males. It's not a coincidence and it's a topic for a serious discussion where many will only be able to joke about sex/partners/relationships. In general most humans need companionship or relationships to feel they are well-rounded or living a purposeful life. Not everyone (some can live alone), and no, absolutely no one can go after something like this by force, but many minds can end up in dark places living solitary lives with no companionship. It's why I am generally critical of the concepts of celibacy enforced in some religious doctrine. Largely speaking, it isn't healthy.
Going a bit OT, but I think there is so much value in breaking down some of these discussions to micro-levels like this rather than just focussing on terrorist groups/cells. There has to be research and understanding around the individuals themselves who carry out the atrocities and why they get radicalised. Especially why it is nearly always males.
Jag
Member
I think they only do that if it's someone who has been tasked with an attack or made some kind of video loyalty pledge.
English Amaq statement:
https://twitter.com/siteintelgroup/status/866987377520193540
What's mushrikin? Like an infidel? Non-believer?
McMoneyman
Member
"'We had to pull nails out of children's faces': Steve, a homeless man who was sleeping near #Manchester Arena, rushed to help young victims"
At least you regain some hope for humanity when you see stuff like this.
At least you regain some hope for humanity when you see stuff like this.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Basically people who believe in anything but Allah - worship of false idols and all that.
Edit: For quick reference - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)
Costa Kid
Member
I know lots of people who I would've considered smart who are now like that. We underestimate the power of the internet and social media.
This is an awful event and made worse by people trying to politicise it and turn it into something it's not to fit in with their beliefs. The poor families.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Pic since he deleted the Tweet.
The half-assed "sorry I offended", "apology".
The poor baby.
Fuck this guy.
IggyChooChoo
Member
Why to even post that garbage?
plagiarize
Banned
Block the fuckers.
A good friend of mine who lives in Manchester posted this:
and
People like this friend are *my* Manchester right there.
If you haven't got the energy to confront them about this, just cut them out of your life. Echo chambers are dangerous, but so is exposing yourself to hate and ignorance.
Really? Of course it doesn't make this attack OK, but the only way to understand it is to look at the viewpoint of the people carrying out the attacks. And the US military bombing innocent Muslims is going to weight pretty fucking heavily on that.
Muffin1611
Banned
Good point.
plagiarize
Banned
I wouldn't disagree that perceived intent matters, but I don't think that being true contradicts what I said.
Apples and Oranges really. I'd argue that eroding civil liberty in whatever form is a loss. The rise of right wing rhetoric and sentiments in response to this, the villification of muslims and the way that plays into disenfranchising them into becoming new members.
It's not a total victory in the way winning a war would be but for their goals I'd say it's certainly doing its job.
plagiarize
Banned
Religion provides social support structures and moral guidance to many. It has helped play a part in reforming criminals and guiding people considering horrible acts of harm or self harm away from going through with them.
I can't weigh the good against the bad... but it is good for more than convincing 'otherwise good people' to commit evil.
JonnyDBrit
Member
The article also explains how the word is then morphed into describing those who commit it.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
They were not the only events. Saddam Hussein then went on to invade Kuwait. The consequent war and economic sanctions caused Iraqi GDP/capita to fall by two thirds. Throughout his entire regime, he was responsible for repeated political incarcerations and killings, as well as policies deliberately directed to oppress the Kurdish population and diminish their numbers. He didn't suddenly hit 1993 and go 'hey, I'll pack it in'.
You're also assuming that even if he had suddenly packed in the genocide and the warmongering, he'd have been a stable leader. The rebellion against Assad, comparable to Hussein in the sense of being a brutal dictator, preceded Western invention - we were late to the party. The destabilisation of Syria was in response to Assad. He wasn't something that would have prevented it, he was the direct causal factor. It is rather likely Hussein would have faced the same problem in the face of the Arab Spring.
Put another way, which is better off right now, Iraq, or Syria? Quite clearly Iraq. Which was the one where a brutal dictator was deposed, and which was the one where the brutal dictator was left in place? Iraq, then Syria.
This is factually untrue. Iraq's GDP/capita right now is higher than it was at any point under the Hussein regime excluding the 1990 oil price shock (which was what precipitated the war in the first place). Iraq has a reasonably well-functioning democracy that ranks more high for civil rights and inclusiveness than any other Arab state. Iraq has more electrical generation, greater oil production, less people in absolute poverty, and better sanitation infrastructure than the pre-war period. Iraq is now better than it was ever at any point under Hussein.
Where Iraq has struggled has been because Syria's chaos has spilled over the border. The current problem in Syria is a failure of the West to do anything against the Assad regime when there was a clear window of opportunity.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Bullshit.
This isn't a war. The crimes of ISIS are horrific, but no more so than dozens of other groups. Our slaughter of brown people dwarfs any attack ISIS could hope to perpetrate. We created them, we fuel their numbers by killing innocents, and then people have the gaul to say, 'That's just war bro'.
Fuck that.
I'm sure if those people are actually good they can do something similar without religion being there.
Nakasan
Member
If Religion wasn't here these cunts would still find something to base their hate on. Skin colour. Country someone is born in. Whether they are witches or not. What football team they love. What sex someone is. What sex their partner is. This list is endless.
Organized religions are not about that, they are about power. Having faith has nothing to do with listening to somebody telling me all day, how the west is corrupt, how homosexuals are immoral and things like that. Of course people will think they are not human and are ok with killing children.
And there is no religion of peace, if their religious heads spend a good amount of time telling everybody how two thirds of humanity are morally corrupt. If it is about the betterment of your own faith, stop pointing fingers at everybody else.
Because there are so many racist, heterosexual or nationalist suicide bombers? Stop the cultural relativism this is getting nowhere. Religion makes people do things they would never do because of something else. Timothy Mcveigh died in prison not in the bomb blast.
Some people would, yeah. But people in suicide jackets? Nah, this is brainwashing.
My friend just shared a quote by Steven Weinberg, an American theoretical physicist
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
plagiarize
Banned
I know a preacher who before finding religion did time for armed robbery. He has helped thousands of inmates.
He is one of the best people I know and I can vouch for his actual goodness.
At times like this we should all come together, just like the people of Manchester did last night, and continue to do today.
Yes. Hence Shirk is the act.
Yeah I'm sure it would be considered acceptable here to handwave a racist crime by saying "it has nothing to do with racism, they would have found another motive anyway" the way people always do with crimes based on religion.