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[Skellig Gra]

Pic since he deleted the Tweet.
The half-assed "sorry I offended", "apology".

The poor baby.


Fuck this guy.

Jesus that guy just doesn't know when to quit.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

The photo of Georgina Callender with Ariana is heartbreaking, can't even imagine how happy she was last night before that fucking scum shattered every thing.
And that statement about Crusaders is all the worst.

 

[Ashes]

My friend just shared a quote by Steven Weinberg, an American theoretical physicist

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

This is and will always be bullshit. The definition of evil seems only to switch with the religious.

 

[RangerX]

Really? Of course it doesn't make this attack OK, but the only way to understand it is to look at the viewpoint of the people carrying out the attacks. And the US military bombing innocent Muslims is going to weight pretty fucking heavily on that.

Exactly. To understand is not to condone. I don't know why people have trouble grasping this

 

[poppabk]

I also think that the poster is going too far in weighing these equally.

But this discussion started as a question of why do these attacks happen. And the answer is, additionally to Middle Eastern countries not doing enough about it, the US bombing these countries to kill key terrorists. And they're killing innocent bystanders in the process. "Accidentally" really isn't the word I would use. Neither is "on purpose". They're pretty much accepting of it, and to the family and friends of the victims the moral difference doesn't really matter. It just radicalizes them.

I do think it's worthy to be conscious of that, to have a better understanding of the causes, and the means that definitely won't stop this.

And also to be conscious of the fact that while we Europeans are having killed dozens in these attacks, our Middle Eastern neighbours are having killed hundreds and thousands on a regular basis. There's a moral difference, of course. But the difference in reaction to these deeds by the general public and the media really can't be explained by that moral difference.

That's all I wanted to add to this discussion.

Have any of these terrorists in the west ever been confirmed to have lost loved ones in the conflicts in the middle east? I think you can blame western intervention for some of the instability in the middle east, but the terror attacks in the west are generally only tangentially related. Just a cause for a loser to hang their hat on.

 

[Jackpot]

Religion provides social support structures and moral guidance to many. It has helped play a part in reforming criminals and guiding people considering horrible acts of harm or self harm away from going through with them.

I can't weigh the good against the bad... but it is good for more than convincing 'otherwise good people' to commit evil.

It's fairly well-documented throughout history that religion's primary use is a tool of control. Regardless, false ideas bring false comfort.

 

[Hex]

Good that countries are starting to tackle the biggest problem Saudi Arabia, who are enabling all these terrorist attacks. Glad the USA told them to fuck off the other day.

Spoiler

/s

RIP to the victims.

This was huge on my mind last night.
Year after year, capped up by this years photos of the parade through a country where people are traded like cattle and people are so oil rich that other countries human centipede their asshole while pretending that we do not know.

 

[plagiarize]

Some people would, yeah. But people in suicide jackets? Nah, this is brainwashing.

What is the difference between people in suicide vests and young white gunmen in the US committing suicide by SWAT team after shooting dozens dead?

 

[King_Moc]

I know a preacher who before finding religion did time for armed robbery. He has helped thousands of inmates.

He is one of the best people I know and I can vouch for his actual goodness.

Ok, but less than 1% of the USA's prison population is atheist. Maybe they all just found God after going in?

At times like this we should all come together, just like the people of Manchester did last night, and continue to do today.

I agree, and I'm not seeking to divide people. It's just incredibly obvious what's to blame here: horrible people exploiting religion to get people to commit acts like this.

 

[Ashes]

It's fairly well-documented throughout history that religion's primary use is a tool of control. Regardless, false ideas bring false comfort.

Of course not. Religion's primary point for existing is that their hosts believe it to be the truth.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Of course not. Religion's primary point for existing is that their hosts believe it to be the truth.

That and explaining the unknown.

 

[plagiarize]

It's fairly well-documented throughout history that religion's primary use is a tool of control. Regardless, false ideas bring false comfort.

Organized religions are not about that, they are about power. Having faith has nothing to do with listening to somebody telling me all day, how the west is corrupt, how homosexuals are immoral and things like that. Of course people will think they are not human and are ok with killing children.

And there is no religion of peace, if their religious heads spend a good amount of time telling everybody how two thirds of humanity are morally corrupt. If it is about the betterment of your own faith, stop pointing fingers at everybody else.

My friend just shared a quote by Steven Weinberg, an American theoretical physicist

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I'm not going to apologize for pointing out that religion isn't a wholly negative thing. That rhetoric may not be convenient, but it is absolutely true.

 

[Nakasan]

Yeah I'm sure it would be considered acceptable here to handwave a racist crime by saying "it has nothing to do with racism, they would have found another motive anyway" the way people always do with crimes based on religion.

Not even remotely comparable to what I was saying.

 

[Ashes]

That and explaining the unknown.

Aye. Stray outside of the big religions and lots of older religions have their ancestors as gods and spiritual beings.

 

[Amir0x]

I think the debate over whether things like this being due to religion is pretty superficial in any event. Like of course it was a motivating factor, and of course it is a serious problem. But we are not getting rid of religion, so it is more important to figure out what actions we can actually take to prevent things like this.

Drone war?
Bases in Muslim majority countries?
Israel and Palestine?
What protections can we put in place to prevent more suicide bombings without violating privacy rights and religious freedom?

 

[plagiarize]

Ok, but less than 1% of the USA's prison population is atheist. Maybe they all just found God after going in?

Conversions happen at a high rate amongst prison populations. It's a well documented phenomena.

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Really? Of course it doesn't make this attack OK, but the only way to understand it is to look at the viewpoint of the people carrying out the attacks. And the US military bombing innocent Muslims is going to weight pretty fucking heavily on that.

Exactly.

Anyone who decides to kill others, especially known innocents, is wrong. This counts for anyone.

If you want to answer the question “Why does this happen?” you are going to find various reasons that contribute to this. Part will be Saudi Arabia and other countries promoting extremism and terrorism to who they can, another part will be as a result of actions taken from the west. When you have over 500,000 people dead in one war with many of them deaths being innocent people you are bound to give people a reason to want to take revenge. I mean its known that America (with help from others im sure) have killed leaders of countries to help with their agenda and as a result have caused millions of deaths from the fallout.

When you have to have a dedicated section of your news to cover American drone strikes in your country which are known to have around a 10% success rate of not hitting civilians you can kind of understand where the anger could come from.

Acknowledging these potential influencers does in no way dismiss the disgusting actions that have been taken yesterday or with any other terror attack but if you are honest about having a desire to work out what could have helped cause this situation you need to look at every aspect.

 

[msdstc]

Yeah I'm sure it would be considered acceptable here to handwave a racist crime by saying "it has nothing to do with racism, they would have found another motive anyway" the way people always do with crimes based on religion.

pretty much.

Let's also not pretend that this isn't brainwashing. These terrorists are groomed and brainwashed, and unfortunately for whatever reason, their religion is a very strong tool for grooming terrorism.

 

[hodgy100]

pretty much.

Let's also not pretend that this isn't brainwashing. These terrorists are groomed and brainwashed, and unfortunately for whatever reason, their religion is a very strong tool for grooming terrorism.

yes i think its pretty fair to say that.

 

[Little Mons†er]

8 year old girl dead at fucking Arina Grande concert ... words cant express how angry I am about this.

So young

 

[Audioboxer]

Religion cam seriously go and do one at this point. All it seems to be good for is convincing otherwise good people to commit evil acts.

I mean, sorry, if you're religious, but come on. It's just not worth it.

As I've gotten older I've begun to move away from what I'd have say were my teenage atheism days. Railing against my parent's religion and religion in general. Funnily enough going into a field of science, psychology, has actually helped me be more well-adjusted as a person to the reality of human life. Which includes religion, philosophy and consistent questions about our existence/afterlife. I may still believe it's untrue (religion/God), but I have better understandings of it all and history rather than just "religion is dumb". Although I am a bit older than some students because I attempted to study a course prior which didn't work out. Sometimes age passing in general just leads to everyone being more well-rounded.

Without going into pages of debate, religion will always largely be what the individuals make of it. Since we evolved there have been atrocities committed in the name of nearly every "mainstream" religion out there. There will continue to be. Yes, we may well be at a time where one religion is committing far more of the atrocities of the world than the others. You'll see people in this very thread though invoke how history may have been hundreds of years ago (The Crusades or what crimes in the names of Christianity and Catholicsm have been up to). It can all be true without it being a competition of "who is worse". History is important to learn from, but you also need to try and sort out things that are happening in the present.

These battles against intolerance, division, violence, and so on have to be handled in more responsive and adult ways than to just try to eradicate religion. Being that authoritarian with secularism has been attempted in history... with the mass loss of life. Just like it happens when one sole religion tries to force itself on everyone. Freedom of religion is as important as freedom of speech. A civil and humane society needs the free exchange of beliefs and ideas, and for people to be able to choose. When you try to take agency away by force it often ends in mass conflict and death. The only place it should always be separated from is Government. Otherwise, it is a form of preferential treatment and Governments can abuse power/religions when in power abuse Government.

However, that does mean, as it always will, religion is open to criticism just as much as scientific theories are. This is where we sometimes falter in the West, getting caught up putting religion on a pedestal and not wanting to offend. Whereas we have no issues criticising people who say the earth is flat, we might think twice about anyone saying evolution is false. Or as it happens to transpire in the West we sometimes exoticise Islam because it has the label of a "minority" here, whereas we're more familiar criticising the majority two, Christianity/Catholicism. Examples of people not wanting to offend are mainly just humans being human and trying to navigate life, not everyone who tries to be polite is some apologist needing flak. Where zero tolerance really needs to be unified around is when it's not about evolution being true or not, but intent to harm, kill or abuse people in psychical and mental ways to enforce your doctrine. That is happening today, and it probably will forever, but no, it doesn't help when people really do try to apologise for shit that needs to be recognised for what it is and attempts at sorting it out need to be discussed.

tldr; Religion isn't going away, and it can be just as important in society as the free exchange of ideas/speech.

 

[iapetus]

I wouldn't disagree that perceived intent matters, but I don't think that being true contradicts what I said.

It makes a huge difference to the thread of the discussion. Whether the US actually deliberately bombs children, accepts it as collateral damage or abhors it matters not a jot from a practical viewpoint. It's how people perceive their intent that helps to radicalise them.

 

[msdstc]

yes i think its pretty fair to say that.

then why the fuck are we pretending like this has nothing to do with religion? This does nothing to solve the problem.

 

[Preezy]

If Religion wasn't here these cunts would still find something to base their hate on. Skin colour. Country someone is born in. Whether they are witches or not. What football team they love. What sex someone is. What sex their partner is. This list is endless.

But all of those things exist currently separately to religion and no one is blowing up kids because of them. It's purely religion. It's evil and if we woke up tomorrow and religion was gone, nothing of value would be lost.

 

[Beefy]

This was huge on my mind last night.
Year after year, capped up by this years photos of the parade through a country where people are traded like cattle and people are so oil rich that other countries human centipede their asshole while pretending that we do not know.

All about that oil money

 

[iapetus]

If you want to answer the question “Why does this happen?” you are going to find various reasons that contribute to this.

Exactly. And if you want to answer the question, "How can we stop this from happening?" then I'd hope it's obvious to anyone with two braincells to rub together that answering the question "Why does this happen?" is a pre-requisite.

 

[Ashes]

then why the fuck are we pretending like this has nothing to do with religion? This does nothing to solve the problem.

Show me a suicide bomber without political motivations. And I will show you a bomber without religious motivations.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I can't imagine an argument more useless and pie in the sky than "we just need to get rid of religion"

 

[Scousefury]

yes i think its pretty fair to say that.

I also see this as an economic issue. Islam is the religion of choice for countries with fuck all going for them in the world today. A lot of the anger in that religion for me comes from a place of jealousy of the west. Which is why on the flip side Religion is falling away in the west, we just don't want or need it anymore.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Ok, but less than 1% of the USA's prison population is atheist. Maybe they all just found God after going in?

When the parole boards love to hear that you 'found God' inside, it's hardly a wonder.

 

[Skyzard]

They were not the only events. Saddam Hussein then went on to invade Kuwait. The consequent war and economic sanctions caused Iraqi GDP/capita to fall by two thirds. Throughout his entire regime, he was responsible for repeated political incarcerations and killings, as well as policies deliberately directed to oppress the Kurdish population and diminish their numbers. He didn't suddenly hit 1993 and go 'hey, I'll pack it in'.

You're also assuming that even if he had suddenly packed in the genocide and the warmongering, he'd have been a stable leader. The rebellion against Assad, comparable to Hussein in the sense of being a brutal dictator, preceded Western invention - we were late to the party. The destabilisation of Syria was in response to Assad. He wasn't something that would have prevented it, he was the direct causal factor. It is rather likely Hussein would have faced the same problem in the face of the Arab Spring.

Put another way, which is better off right now, Iraq, or Syria? Quite clearly Iraq. Which was the one where a brutal dictator was deposed, and which was the one where the brutal dictator was left in place? Iraq, then Syria.



This is factually untrue. Iraq's GDP/capita right now is higher than it was at any point under the Hussein regime excluding the 1990 oil price shock (which was what precipitated the war in the first place). Iraq has a reasonably well-functioning democracy that ranks more high for civil rights and inclusiveness than any other Arab state. Iraq has more electrical generation, greater oil production, less people in absolute poverty, and better sanitation infrastructure than the pre-war period. Iraq is now better than it was ever at any point under Hussein.

Where Iraq has struggled has been because Syria's chaos has spilled over the border. The current problem in Syria is a failure of the West to do anything against the Assad regime when there was a clear window of opportunity.

Saddam invaded Kuwait because they were stealing Iraqi oil. He even asked US for permission and they gave it to him, then they brought in the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to US to make a false testimony to justify a US attack on Iraq, even as soldiers were retreating.

There were protests for months in Syria, peaceful protests, with Assad making concession after concession. Then power hungry rebels got armed and training to kill police and soldiers and shit hit the fan. Late to the party, right, I'm sure they would have started attacking the government as random rebels without US backing.

I don't know how you can look at GDP and say a country is better off for it when they suffer from massive terrorist attacks every single fucking day. The country has become ultra religious and has had even more of its educated leave to other countries for refuge. It's a shit show. No one feels safe and ISIS is all over the country. That was after years of civil violence and torture between the different sects because of the piss-poor handling of the situation after the invasion.

Saddam had a single dinar worth £2. Now it's nowhere fucking near. There was poverty because of US and UK sanctions against the country that caused a famine leading to the deaths of 500, 000.

This bullshit narrative of saving the people and bringing them freedom and democracy wasn't remotely believable in 2003, it's not believable now. This is about nothing other than securing western interests, always has been, always will be.

If it was remotely about preventing suffering they would have acted a hell of a lot sooner, and would now act in a lot of other places that desperately need it.
The west wanted regime change, at any fucking cost - and the results of that are painfully obvious as massive failures. The middle-east is a complete mess, as is their oil economy and you'd have to be extremely naive to think the instability wasn't intentional.

 

[plagiarize]

I think the debate over whether things like this being due to religion is pretty superficial in any event. Like of course it was a motivating factor, and of course it is a serious problem. But we are not getting rid of religion, so it is more important to figure out what actions we can actually take to prevent things like this.

Drone war?
Bases in Muslim majority countries?
Israel and Palestine?
What protections can we put in place to prevent more suicide bombings without violating privacy rights and religious freedom?

I think we need to do more to figure out how to stop angry young men, who feel disenfranchised from society, from turning to violence. Be it through suicide vest or killing spree. That to me is a problem we can maybe work to resolve and what I suspect we are looking at again today.

Which does nothing to suggest ISIS aren't a serious issue that needs to be figured out and addressed too.

 

[msdstc]

Show me a suicide bomber without political motivations. And I will show you a bomber without religious motivations.

That's fine these people may have multiple motivations. That being said a lot of these people are being brainwashed to believe that they are doing this in the name of their religion, and that it's the right thing to do.

 

[Deepwater]

But all of those things exist currently separately to religion and no one is blowing up kids because of them. It's purely religion. It's evil and if we woke up tomorrow and religion was gone, nothing of value would be lost.

Are we going to forget things like Sandy Hook happened?

Yall do supreme backflips and stretch armstrong levels of reaching to reduce religion to a breeding ground for terrorism when it's really clear you guys just don't like the concept of it and want an easy scapegoat to a complicated problem.

Does religion play a factor in this? Of course, but you're being intellectually dishonest about the causes when you don't acknowledge WHY all radical islamic terrorism became a thing and why it just happened to spring out of the Cold War.

 

[Beefy]

I can't imagine an argument more useless and pie in the sky than "we just need to get rid of religion"

We would all have to be exact clones in body and mind to maybe stop shit like this. Even then it would probably still happen.

 

[Ashes]

That's fine these people may have multiple motivations. That being said a lot of these people are being brainwashed to believe that they are doing this in the name of their religion, and that it's the right thing to do.

Yes. Religion can be dangerous.

 

[excelsiorlef]

We would all have to be exact clones in body and mind to maybe stop shit like this. Even then it would probably still happen.

Like even if it were true it'd be like arguing we just need to get rid of dying to stop cancer

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Saddam invaded Kuwait because they were stealing Iraqi oil. He even asked US for permission and they gave it to him, then they brought in the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to US to make a false testimony to justify a US attack on Iraq, even as soldiers were retreating.

There were protests for months in Syria, peaceful protests, with Assad making concession after concession. Then rebels got armed and training to kill police and soldiers and shit hit the fan. Late to the party, right, I'm sure they would have started attacking the government as random rebels without US backing.

I don't know how you can look at GDP and say a country is better off for it when they suffer from massive terrorist attacks every single fucking day. The country has become ultra religious and has had even more of its educated leave to other countries for refuge. It's a shit show. No one feels safe and ISIS is all over the country. That was after all the civil violence and torture between the different sects because of the piss-poor handling of the situation after the invasion.

Saddam had a single dinar worth £2. Now it's nowhere fucking near. There was poverty because of US and UK sanctions against the country that caused a famine leading to the deaths of 500, 000.

This bullshit narrative of saving the people and bringing them freedom and democracy wasn't remotely believable in 2003, it's not believable now. This is about nothing other than securing western interests.

If it was remotely about suffering they would have acted a hell of a lot sooner, and would now act in a lot of other places that desperately need it.
The west wanted regime change, at any fucking cost - and the results of that are painfully obvious as massive failures. The middle-east is a complete mess, as is their oil economy and you'd have to be extremely naive to think the instability wasn't intentional.

Im gonna need the recipe to your secret sauce for those first two points

Especially considering the Syrian government has been using chemical weapons, or is that just a wester lie too?

 

[msdstc]

We would all have to be exact clones in body and mind to maybe stop shit like this. Even then it would probably still happen.

ahhhh this is bullshit.

Yes there will always be hate, murder, terrorism, etc., but that doesn't mean we can't do something about at least some of it.

 

[plagiarize]

But all of those things exist currently separately to religion and no one is blowing up kids because of them. It's purely religion. It's evil and if we woke up tomorrow and religion was gone, nothing of value would be lost.

Sandy Hook didn't happen because of religion. Anders Brevik didn't happen because of religion I don't think.

I bet you that the person who did this, will have a lot in common with them. Single young men, detached from society, getting exposed to extreme views online, with very messed up views about masculinity.

There are many factors at play here.

 

[Meadows]

I don't want to backseat mod, but please can we avoid these discussions in this thread. GAF is a fantastic source for breaking information, especially with all the fake news on Twitter/FB.

If we could shelve the religious discussions for another day or another thread I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Saddam invaded Kuwait because they were stealing Iraqi oil. He even asked US for permission and they gave it to him, then they brought in the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to US to make a false testimony to justify a US attack on Iraq, even as soldiers were retreating.

This is now conspiracy theory, false-flag nonsense. Glaspie's comment that the US had no opinion on Arab-Arab disputes referred to the fact the US held no official position on the exact demarcation of the contested Iraq-Kuwait border. It did not mean that the US had no position on an Iraq-Kuwait war and it especially did not mean the US was 'giving permission' for Iraq to invade Kuwait. I'm not going to engage further if you persist with blatant falsehoods.

 

[azyless]

There are many factors at play here.

One of them being religion.

 

[Auto_aim1]

Doing good is not something you need a religion to teach you, it's common sense. When people do bad, they need to justify it somehow and that's where religion comes in. For most people common sense overrides religion, but that's not always the case unfortunately. There is nothing wrong in being spiritual, believing in a higher power. That is also a common reaction to suffering and in a sense it is something life teaches us.

Hiding behind religion to commit crimes makes you a senseless monster, no matter what religion you follow. Sometimes people don't take decisions out of their own free will because of childhood indoctrination, brainwashing etc, and that's an unfortunate reality we have to deal with.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I don't want to backseat mod, but please can we avoid these discussions in this thread. GAF is a fantastic source for breaking information, especially with all the fake news on Twitter/FB.

If we could shelve the religious discussions for another day or another thread I'd really appreciate it.

lol no it's not

People post the twitter bs all the time in these threads

If you want to actually be informed, the literal best choice is to turn off the news for the night and wake up to the real information.

 

[Trokil]

Are we going to forget things like Sandy Hook happened?

This seems about right, a shooter with psychological problems is about on the same level as a religious fundamentalist. Both believe in things which are not there and are ready to do incredible things because of that.

Sandy Hook is really a good example for that.

Anders Brevik didn't happen because of religion I don't think.

Breivik, McVeigh and all those did not blow themselves up.

 

[excelsiorlef]

lol no it's not

People post the twitter bs all the time in these threads

If you want to actually be informed, the literal best choice is to turn off the news for the night and wake up to the real information.

Seriously...

I'd say just stick to BBC for now maybe.

 

[Skyzard]

Im gonna need the recipe to your secret sauce for those first two points

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_(testimony)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January–April_2011)

This is now conspiracy theory, false-flag nonsense. Glaspie's comment that the US had no opinion on Arab-Arab disputes referred to the fact the US held no official position on the exact demarcation of the contested Iraq-Kuwait border. It did not mean that the US had no position on an Iraq-Kuwait war and it especially did not mean the US was 'giving permission' for Iraq to invade Kuwait. I'm not going to engage further if you persist with blatant falsehoods.

Oh, please.

Saddam told the ambassador July 25 that Mubarak has arranged for Kuwaiti and Iraqi delegations to meet in Riyadh, and then on July 28, 29 or 30, the Kuwaiti crown prince will come to Baghdad for serious negotiations. "Nothing serious will happen" before then, Saddam had promised Mubarak.[1]

We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America.

Queue a bullshit testimony and push for invasion because of the fake narrative repeatedly used that iraqi soldiers were killing babies in incubators.

Bloodthirsty warmongers, the world is full them.

 

[hodgy100]

then why the fuck are we pretending like this has nothing to do with religion? This does nothing to solve the problem.

because like you said religion is a tool that is used to make people resort to extreme measures. There are lots of other factors that come into play. Religion is but a cog in the system.

I also see this as an economic issue. Islam is the religion of choice for countries with fuck all going for them in the world today. A lot of the anger in that religion for me comes from a place of jealousy of the west. Which is why on the flip side Religion is falling away in the west, we just don't want or need it anymore.

yes economics, education, culture and world events all factor into these things. its not as simple as a problem having one cause.

 

[Tovarisc]

One of them being religion.

Are we sure? ISIS have taken responsibility sure, but what reporting I have heard officials are still looking into it and figuring out if that is the case.

Also I assume you don't mean to imply that all forms of religions are bad.