Yup, that's why I largely avoided this thread last evening.
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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)
- Thread starter E-phonk
- Start date
Yup, that's why I largely avoided this thread last evening.
I live 250m away from the arena, this is a great tool for me to get information, I can't just go have a sleep like people on the other side of the world.
GoldenCrow
Member
I think it's much simpler than that. Angry younger person with a grudge to bear motivated or inspired by older angry person. The subject of motivation matters little but religion and politics have a far reaching historical record of violent actions being associated with them.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
excelsiorlef
Member
Don't rely in GAF or other social media for your breaking news.
It's a tool that they genuinely believe in, similar to a cult. We talk about how dangerous cults are, but we can't talk about how dangerous religion can be? This is a widespread problem given how often we see people radicalized. It's not just these occasional bombings or attacks in other countries, but also the constant civil war within their own countries.
plagiarize
Banned
Whether they blew themselves up, or shot themselves after killing lots of people, or did the whole 'suicide by SWAT team' thing... I don't see that as a key difference here.
Kotetsu534
Member
It would be very interesting to see a chart showing how many suicide bombers in the last, say, two years, were known to have either a) a girlfriend or wife, or b) good employment prospects. Or to put it another way, while acknowledging the role that different cultures play in inculcating different values and expectations, I wouldn't be surprised if there was more in common between the thought processes of last night's attacker and Dylann Roof than between him and any given religious male.
Suicide bomber, ISIS taking responsibility.. if you want to be pedantic no I guess we don't know 100%.
I'm free to think what I want of religions.
plagiarize
Banned
Religion is the only one of those things that will make someone put on a suicide vest. It requires the belief that a sky daddy is going to reward you for your actions.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Ok, so don't use GAF or social media to get your breaking news, especially when it's literally third hand sources at best
Ground reporters -> News Stations -> GAF poster isn't exactly a sound filter to find out what's happening.
plagiarize
Banned
Precisely where my thoughts are at this time. I guess we'll start to get a picture in the coming days.
Nakasan
Member
Undoubtedly. Absolutely undoubtedly.
I believe (Of course I would, I'm religious) that religion (not just mine) brings a lot more good into the world than evil.
But I'm not sure how that could objectively be measured. I make decisions each day based off my religious beliefs/thoughts etc... as billions others do. Measuring those against obvious atrocities that we all know, including the disgusting act last night, I'd wager would be impossible.
However, I think I'm too far off topic now and would like to apologise if I've unintentionally wound anyone up. I haven't been defending any part of last night and would feel garbage if anyone thought I had been.
ThankeeSai
Member
Just been reading the news and it's now been confirmed that an 8 year old girl is amongst one of the dead in Manchester.
8 years old.
My heart goes out to the family's of everyone who has lost a loved one last night and those that are still fighting for their lives in hospital.
Jesus fucking Christ this is so sad and horrible. I see a lot of folks saying that we must dust ourselves off and carry on as normal. Carry on as normal and wait for another attack like this?
Something has to be done, something has to change, surely.
But what? What can we actually do about any of this? What action can we actually take to prevent this from happening again?...No really, I'm asking.
I don't understand why or how anyone could do this to other human beings 😔
Sorry for the rant/venting but this has really got to me today - maybe because it's not far from where I live, maybe it's because a member of my family was there last night (she is home safe and sound thank God).
I dunno...I just can't see any way out of this situation. Anyone?
8 years old.
My heart goes out to the family's of everyone who has lost a loved one last night and those that are still fighting for their lives in hospital.
Jesus fucking Christ this is so sad and horrible. I see a lot of folks saying that we must dust ourselves off and carry on as normal. Carry on as normal and wait for another attack like this?
Something has to be done, something has to change, surely.
But what? What can we actually do about any of this? What action can we actually take to prevent this from happening again?...No really, I'm asking.
I don't understand why or how anyone could do this to other human beings 😔
Sorry for the rant/venting but this has really got to me today - maybe because it's not far from where I live, maybe it's because a member of my family was there last night (she is home safe and sound thank God).
I dunno...I just can't see any way out of this situation. Anyone?
The two are different IMO.
Someone like Lanza wasn't radicalized, he was mentally ill much like most spree killers. Are there similarities? I'm sure the mental states are similarly fragile between SOME of these people. But as I said earlier, a lot of these people have no choice, they are brought up in an extremist environment, and for one reason or another it seems that this religion is ripe for radicalizing versus other religions.
Audioboxer
Member
I don't think it's simple, there are many reasons, but this is another important one. Often the younger minds are influenced by older figures most likely perceived to be "wiser/authority figures", or even possibly a parent figure.
It could be interesting to know how many of these males committing attacks have parents they were still around, or even if they had parents (obviously they have parents, but whether they were influential at all in upbringing). Notably a father. Upbringing and parental oversight can yet again be another small piece of the jigsaw. From a lack of parental figures being around, or maybe the parents were radicalised. In one situation the male may go looking for a parent figure, such as a preacher, in the other, the parents themselves may indoctrinate and aid in radicalisation.
I think there would be many similarities on such a chart, but without the evidence at hand, I'm speculating.
guggnichso
Banned
Yes, really. Versailles made Hitler possible, and of course it is extremely important to look at it to understand how he rose to power. But Versailles does not explain the Holocaust. Also, the atrocities commited by the Western powers need to be looked at and lead to some understanding how ISIS rose. HOWEVER those terrorist attacks still need individual assholes coming to the conclusion that the life of people, teens and children in this case, are unimportant. A thing to be used to further your extremist political agenda.
And I'm sorry, but that's exactly what the posters do that directly compare the victims of terrorism to the victims of western hegemonial incursions. BOTH are fucking atrocious BY THEMSELVES. There's no equivalency, because there should never be a comparison in the first place.
Nothing is an excuse for what happened in Manchester yesterday. Nothing is an excuse for what happened in Auschwitz. Nothing is an excuse for what happened during the failed drone strikes and bombings in the Middle East. Each of those events are real and fucked up. Each of those events need to be looked at with disgust. Each of those events had victims and prerpetrators. And each of those perpetrators need to be brought to justice.
But one event happening does not make the other understandable. Being raped as a kid does not make you less of a piece of scum when you rape a kid yourself. And so on and so on.
EDIT: And to give a more recent example, the murders perpetuated by the NSU are NOT alleviated or made better or more understandable by the Dresden firestorm or the rapings and killings of german women and children by soviet troops.
You are missing my point completely. I didn't say anything about trying to stop attacks like this, you just have to look at my other post to see that. I am saying if we got rid of religion, people would do shit like this in the name of something else.
Stopping fund Saudi Arabia would be a big start to stopping this shit.
News stations took over an hour before covering the story last night. If you go in viewing everything with a pinch of salt then GAF is a fantastic source of breaking information.
Obviously, for example, the stuff getting spread about Oldham Hospital, was dubious but if you go in with your eyes open then this is a great source of info.
Gaf has constantly been the best site for me to find out breaking news, always.
All breaking news is filled with false reports and rumours, that's just how things are.
Miles Quaritch
Member
The 7/7 suicide attackers were all married I think. One or two of them had good job prospects too. One was a teacher.
Not the last couple of years, but that's the last suicide attack we had in the UK.
This is blatantly disregarding the war and violence that goes on within their own countries. HOw about a couple being jailed for having sex without being married? How about cutting limbs off for stealing? How about a lynch mob for blasphemy? How about a civil war that seems endless?
Yes every country has its own injustice, death, and violence... that doesn't mean you need to ADD to the issues of the country.
McVeigh, Breivik, Dylann Roof all got caught, none of them was willing to die for their conviction. And there is also numbers. For every Anders Breivik there are 1000 suicide bombers worldwide.
And again we are back to cultural relativism, comparing something which happens very few times to something which happens almost daily.
Next will be the Westbro Baptist church, because they scream at people.
plagiarize
Banned
Religion isn't the only thing that will make someone kill themselves and lots of other people. If you have to split hairs and specifically say 'well it's the only thing that will make someone pick one particular method of doing that' then I'm not really sure you have a point left.
Religion inspires bad. Religion inspires good. Again, I'm not remotely knowledgeable enough or qualified enough to know how those balance out... but they are both patently true statements.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Uh, you ignored the other points that Iraq actually had reason to invade Kuwait, or had permission from the US to do so. Did the US use a piece of false information to justify the invasion to the public? Yea, but that doesn't disregard the other points.
And you didn't answer my question of why a government that you're painting as innocent and the victim of western interference would gas it's own citizens.
Cancer isn't the only thing that will kill people, should we stop looking for ways to prevent it?
22 have been killed, many more wounded, and crusaders? Come on now.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ok I'll say it this way then
Stop requesting that this thread serve only as your personal breaking news feed.
Information will get shared as it comes and meanwhile discussions related will happen.
News stations take time because they verify information (or are supposed to) that's a good thing
Instant news means truth and fiction just become equal noise.
plagiarize
Banned
ISIS are a real problem and will remain one that we need to do everything we can to fight, even if it turns out that the person behind this attack was a radicalized individual rather than an out and out member of a terrorist organization.
But if it turns out that this is a radicalized individual as we have seen in many cases, we shouldn't ignore the specifics of that problem either. Espescially if it's the one directly in front of us right now.
If that's the main issue we are facing here in Massachusetts and back home in Manchester, then right now that's the one a lot of us are going to focus on. IF indeed that is the issue as it appears.
I was responding to the image posted glorifying the attack by ISIS. And yeah i forgot to add injured. Sorry just so upset right now.
edit: here is the image.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I wouldnt say religion is the only thing again lack of education, socio economic status, standards of living can also play a role in twisting someones mind to do dark deeds. You take someone who is impoverished, who lacks thinking skills or een able to distinguish what is right from wrong it is very easy to twist the mind of someone whilst also using something they are familiar with as a catalyst to push their agenda and gain more people to poison their minds with these senseless acts of evil. Is religion a part of it yes, but to claim it is the only factor involved I feel is wrong. There are many layers to issues like these, economics, status, income, education, anger, feeling neglected and not wanted from society could push these people over the edge for an evil cause that harms people
Majukun
Member
there are already people fighting th Islamic state atm.
any other kind of 'solution' heavenly relies of trumping over someone's rights
plagiarize
Banned
When my Dad dies from heart disease and I start trying to do something to fight heart disease, and people keep going on about cancer and trying to make me talk about cancer is there something wrong with me or something wrong with them?
well as posted above there are at least a few in the past few years that weren't in your pattern that you seem to be using as some sort of handwaving.
The san bernadino shooters were married and according to co-workers happy and good workers.
The tsarneav brothers seemed fairly happy/normal as well, dzhokars friends refused to believe it.
This is Muhammad's own command in regards to the conduct of Muslims in warfare.
Oliverus Scholasticus said:
This was the behaviour of certain Muslims during the crusade, dealing with people who invaded and fought them. So even the idea that a muslim would justify slaughtering innocent civilians as a form of revenge, doesn't fit with what the religion actually teaches. There are many things wrong with Islam. But it's prophet has been pretty clear what he thinks about harming civilians.
The Wahhabis and Salafis state that they want to practice Islam as it was original practices. Yet their actions differ immensely from early Muslims. It actually almost mirrors perfectly the Khawarij; a group of murderous fanatics that the muslim world had to deal with in the early years.
bonesmccoy
Banned
It takes a special kind of evil to deliberately target an event like this.
May all the victims rest in peace.
May all the victims rest in peace.
Audioboxer
Member
Updates here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-manchester-40007967
It's a suicide bombing, so a terrorist attack.
This is a broken analogy.
What happened here from all indications is that religion inspired someone to bomb innocent people at a concert.
You and others have pointed out that without religion these people would still exist.
In your analogy you say your dad dying of heart disease and if that's true I'm sorry for that, however the proper analogy would be "well even if we cured heart disease, we'd still have cancer that would kill us."
CitizenCope
Member
In our life time? Much more metal detectors, TSA pat downs, and bag checks than diplomacy, human rights and mental health aid.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
You can debate the reasons for the rise of ISIS and Islamic extremism more generally, but no amount of venting is going to change the basic facts. That is, if you want to fight extremists militarily, you are going to kill children. If you don't fight them militarily, they are going to kill children. If you radically change your policy to avoid the creation of extremists in the future, assuming that even works, children are going to be killed in the meantime.
Rage all you want, call it bullshit all you want. I get it. But that's the situation.
plagiarize
Banned
There are differences between those inspired by ISIS and those actively fighting for them. If this is the former, I think that's a distinct issue with it's own set of challenges that we should also be addressing while trying to fight ISIS.
Again, I stress *if*, based on reports I heard this morning that a British citizen committed this act. Maybe he was part of a terrorist cell. Maybe my speculation isn't on point. I have tried to keep it clearly labelled as speculation.
But the notion that *only* religion inspires this is patently false.
Pointing that out isn't trying to handwave anything. This is a complex problem that cannot be distilled down to 'all religion bad'... and certainly cannot be solved by saying 'all religion bad'.
Because the one thing we definitely can't do is ban a religion, forcefully convert people who believe it, or worse. That we definitely can't do.
So even if the problem is 100% religion (and it clearly isn't) the solution doesn't lie in getting rid of religion.
If the suggestion is that Muslim extremists did this:
Blocking access to extremists sites can help.
Dealing with the drug trafficking nature of operations by daesh and al Qaeda can help.
Criticism of the exportation of Wahhabism across the world.
Dealing with the Palestinian issue will help.
What I do know is that going to war with the Muslim world has not worked.
You're getting hung up on religion being the "only" thing. this is why I bring up the cancer analogy. What I'm pointing out is there is a problem regarding this particular religion and radicalization, the way you're framing it is that it has little or nothing to do with that.
Wouldn't hurt though.
Yoshimitsu126
Member
This Holy War from ISIS is absolutely disgusting. RIP to dead.
But with the current geopolitics and attitudes in the world, it doesn't seem the western nation have any answers to prevent more radicalize men and in fact still encourages it.
But with the current geopolitics and attitudes in the world, it doesn't seem the western nation have any answers to prevent more radicalize men and in fact still encourages it.
My thoughts go out to the victims and their families.
As a big Pearl Jam fan, I remember when they had a concert in which 9 fans died and they almost quit making music. I hope Ariana Grande knows this is in no way her fault. I can't imagine the emotions she, as well as many in Manchester, are going through
.
As a big Pearl Jam fan, I remember when they had a concert in which 9 fans died and they almost quit making music. I hope Ariana Grande knows this is in no way her fault. I can't imagine the emotions she, as well as many in Manchester, are going through
.nope it wouldn't. Getting rid of cancer wouldn't hurt mortality either.
However getting rid of religion entirely is an impossible proposition.