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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)

This is a broken analogy.

What happened here from all indications is that religion inspired someone to bomb innocent people at a concert.

You and others have pointed out that without religion these people would still exist.

In your analogy you say your dad dying of heart disease and if that's true I'm sorry for that, however the proper analogy would be "well even if we cured heart disease, we'd still have cancer that would kill us."

We have zero details about the person who did this other than reports that it was a British adult male.

That story will become clearer soon I don't doubt. Maybe my guesses as to the type of person it is will be completely off base. Maybe yours will.

Right now I am speculating. Right now you are too.

Neither of us know the 'real' reason for this.

But I do know that religion isn't solely a source for bad and I do know that shit very similar to this happens for other reasons than religion too.

In this case? We don't know yet. But I'm going to shoot down false notions just as I have been doing what I can to shoot down false reporting on last nights events, whether it pertains to second devices, active shooters at hospitals, or what have you.
 

Audioboxer

Member
The 7/7 suicide attackers were all married I think. One or two of them had good job prospects too. One was a teacher.

Not the last couple of years, but that's the last suicide attack we had in the UK.

It won't always be a one shoe fit all, but this is where the concept of martyrdom can play a bigger role around individuals who may well have what others call "a decent life". A decent life still doesn't line up to becoming a global "hero" for your cause. Some of these nutjobs would think what can top that? Working as a teacher in the civilisation I hate, or being made an idol, featured all over the news and praised by my view of what my God wants?

Whereas most of the terrorists committing attacks for racial reasons may well not believe in some paradise afterlife or that they'll be well received. At least, their own countries are going to absolutely destroy them, shame them and lock them up. They might be more likely to solely fit the angry male with no life prospects/friends/relationship role. Going out and hurting other people because of their own unhappiness/twisted mind.

Martyrdom is simply quite unique to Islam if we're talking on the level of religious doctrine. It's a concept shared by many, of all sects of the world, going out and sacrificing yourself, but the allure of praise by God and afterlife rewards is a unique concept of martyrdom.
 

msdstc

Incredibly Naive
We have zero details about the person who did this other than reports that it was a British adult male.

That story will become clearer soon I don't doubt. Maybe my guesses as to the type of person it is will be completely off base. Maybe yours will.

Right now I am speculating. Right now you are too.

Neither of us know the 'real' reason for this.

But I do know that religion isn't solely a source for bad and I do know that shit very similar to this happens for other reasons than religion too.

In this case? We don't know yet. But I'm going to shoot down false notions just as I have been doing what I can to shoot down false reporting on last nights events, whether it pertains to second devices, active shooters at hospitals, or what have you.

Alrighty well I'm done. I'm sorry this is just such broken thinking. "well bad stuff happens anyways so we just have to deal with it"
 

Azzanadra

Member
This incident once again bring something to light which I tend to avoid, which is my own subconscious bias in valueing western lives more than those in the ME- I have found myself more upset at this than however many many hundreds die in attacks in Syria. In fact, I almost feel ambivalent to the latter whereas I fall into depression with incidents like this.
 
You're getting hung up on religion being the "only" thing. this is why I bring up the cancer analogy. What I'm pointing out is there is a problem regarding this particular religion and radicalization, the way you're framing it is that it has little or nothing to do with that.

I suspect it has little to do with religion. We'll find out.

I am not suggesting inaction in the face of this. I'm suggesting that if indeed there is a problem in the modern world which is tending to turn single adult men into killers, that we should specifically address that, as well as specifically addressing the problem of organizations like ISIS.

Again, I don't yet know that we're looking at another lonely man who fell between the cracks in society, but it's certainly plausible and certainly no less plausible than someone radicalized by a preacher who went off and trained to be a terrorist for ISIS somewhere. Whatever the issue turns out to be, which should formulate a response accordingly...

And not to the complete ignorance of all other issues.

My posts were prompted by someone saying religion does no good. Well I don't see how factually untrue statements like that does any good in the wake of dozens of murdered innocents and many more injured who knows how badly. So I spoke out.
 
Just been reading the news and it's now been confirmed that an 8 year old girl is amongst one of the dead in Manchester.

8 years old.

My heart goes out to the family's of everyone who has lost a loved one last night and those that are still fighting for their lives in hospital.

Jesus fucking Christ this is so sad and horrible. I see a lot of folks saying that we must dust ourselves off and carry on as normal. Carry on as normal and wait for another attack like this?

Something has to be done, something has to change, surely.

But what? What can we actually do about any of this? What action can we actually take to prevent this from happening again?...No really, I'm asking.

I don't understand why or how anyone could do this to other human beings ��

Sorry for the rant/venting but this has really got to me today - maybe because it's not far from where I live, maybe it's because a member of my family was there last night (she is home safe and sound thank God).

I dunno...I just can't see any way out of this situation. Anyone?

What can "we" do?

Nothing. Things like this are stopped by counter-intelligence operations and information sharing between nations.

There can be conversations about what role toxic masculinity has in driving young men into these type of situations, socio/economic reasons that drive people to extremism, the treatment of muslims in western nations that drive people into an alienated state that help kick-start the process. Nations do need to discuss the process of fixing their issues, like in France and their muslim population and the large incarceration rates they face.

Just chill out and go on with life. The amount of people who die on an annual basis in western countries from terrorist attacks are rather small. That doesn't mean you ignore the issue, but it means you put it in perspective and understand that you're still living in an incredibly safe time in your life. Be with your family who was there, talk to them, find help if you need it, but you can't let this type of stuff cripple your day to day life.

Western Europe has gone through worst in the last thirty plus years, and while the last two years have seen a spike with major attacks, mainly the Paris Night club shooting and Brussels, it's far too early to picture this as a new "normal" like it was back in the 70's and 80's.
 

Ashes

Banned
This incident once again bring something to light which I tend to avoid, which is my own subconscious bias in valueing western lives more than those in the ME- I have found myself more upset at this than however many many hundreds die in attacks in Syria. In fact, I almost feel ambivalent to the latter whereas I fall into depression with incidents like this.

If this is affecting your day to day life please consider a councillor.
 
This incident once again bring something to light which I tend to avoid, which is my own subconscious bias in valueing western lives more than those in the ME- I have found myself more upset at this than however many many hundreds die in attacks in Syria. In fact, I almost feel ambivalent to the latter whereas I fall into depression with incidents like this.

I don't think there is anything inherently bad about this.

Roger Moore just died and I don't give a fuck.

More than twenty people died in the city I used to live in, at a place I walked by as recently as last October, where I saw my first concert and a handful of others, in a city where I have friends and family, some of who know people that were there...

Obviously that effects me much more. The more you can put yourself in the situation the greater your empathy is going to be... and a culture that we understand is always going to be easier to imagine than one we don't.

That doesn't mean that the value of Roger Moore's life is worth less and the lives of the victims last night worth more than any other life lost in the last twenty four hours...

But it's not something you should beat yourself up about. Try to learn more about the people of Middle East. Certainly make sure that the only Muslims you know about aren't terrorists.

But there's nothing wrong with your brain.
 
I'm sorry - but campaigning suspended my arse!

I know Teresa May has to do this stuff to some extent - but this is totally being used by the Tories. Sickening.

Just wait, she'll turn up at the hospital to thank the staff then go visit some of the children involved - I'd put money on it.
 

TimmmV

Member
I live 250m away from the arena, this is a great tool for me to get information, I can't just go have a sleep like people on the other side of the world.

I can empathise with needing to know whats going on as I'm just a little further down the road too, but GAF isn't a good place to get info on it, last night this thread was a mess
 

Betty

Banned
I'm sorry - but campaigning suspended my arse!

I know Teresa May has to do this stuff to some extent - but this is totally being used by the Tories. Sickening.

Just wait, she'll turn up at the hospital to thank the staff then go visit some of the children involved - I'd put money on it.

Who honestly cares, we all knew she was going to win anyway.
 

Auctopus

Member
I'm sorry - but campaigning suspended my arse!

I know Teresa May has to do this stuff to some extent - but this is totally being used by the Tories. Sickening.

Just wait, she'll turn up at the hospital to thank the staff then go visit some of the children involved - I'd put money on it.

As annoyed as I am, it's just government. The government is governing, not campaigning - unfortunately, it stands to only (for lack of a better word) benefit the party in charge.
 
I'm sorry - but campaigning suspended my arse!

I know Teresa May has to do this stuff to some extent - but this is totally being used by the Tories. Sickening.

Just wait, she'll turn up at the hospital to thank the staff then go visit some of the children involved - I'd put money on it.

Shouldn't she though? I mean if there wasn't an election soon wouldn't we be rightly angry if she didn't do things like that?

I can't stand May, but I'd be angrier at her for not visiting the hospital than I will be if she does. She's still the leader of the country and it just suffered a horrendous attack.
 

StormKing

Member
What can "we" do?

Nothing. Things like this are stopped by counter-intelligence operations and information sharing between nations.

There can be conversations about what role toxic masculinity has in driving young men into these type of situations, socio/economic reasons that drive people to extremism, the treatment of muslims in western nations that drive people into an alienated state that help kick-start the process. Nations do need to discuss the process of fixing their issues, like in France and their muslim population and the large incarceration rates they face.

Just chill out and go on with life. The amount of people who die on an annual basis in western countries from terrorist attacks are rather small. That doesn't mean you ignore the issue, but it means you put it in perspective and understand that you're still living in an incredibly safe time in your life. Be with your family who was there, talk to them, find help if you need it, but you can't let this type of stuff cripple your day to day life.

Western Europe has gone through worst in the last thirty plus years, and while the last two years have seen a spike with major attacks, mainly the Paris Night club shooting and Brussels, it's far too early to picture this as a new "normal" like it was back in the 70's and 80's.

It's hard to "chill out and go on with life" when concerts are being bombed and children are being slain. That is not an acceptable solution. Doing nothing will only lead to gradual rise of fascism in europe.

Radical Islam must be neutralized. If the left fails to solve it then the hard right will take over.
 

Ashes

Banned
I'm sorry - but campaigning suspended my arse!

I know Teresa May has to do this stuff to some extent - but this is totally being used by the Tories. Sickening.

Just wait, she'll turn up at the hospital to thank the staff then go visit some of the children involved - I'd put money on it.

She's the Prime Minister. Her first duty of care should be prioritized over politics.
 

Meadows

Banned
Whether we like it or not, Theresa May is the leader of this country. Elections be damned, she needs to be seen to be securing the country and offering a message of calm and resolve, which I'm glad she has.

Some things are more important than party political bickering.
 
Who honestly cares, we all knew she was going to win anyway.

Yes, they were always going to win, but their lead was narrowing massively.

As sick as it sounds and as sick as it is - this will benefit them, all she needs to do is get the balance right and pretend it's a private visit but accidentally let everyone know and maybe get a photo out. It's disgusting and it's absolutely what they'll do.
 

teeny

Member
RIP to all the victims, I cannot fathom these senseless acts of violence. And against children too, just awful. :(

This is sickening to see. I was in Manchester on Sunday for the first time in years and I really love the city. Have friends that live there that heard the booms and got in touch before any news broke. Absolutely crazy. They were at MEN for a Brian Cox show Sunday night, too. This is the second near miss they have had - they were on a train heading into London when the 7/7 bombings occurred. If they had got an earlier train, they would have been in the thick of it. They're understandably pretty shell-shocked at the moment. :(
 

Betty

Banned
Yes, they were always going to win, but their lead was narrowing massively.

As sick as it sounds and as sick as it is - this will benefit them, all she needs to do is get the balance right and pretend it's a private visit but accidentally let everyone know and maybe get a photo out. It's disgusting.

That's politics and just another day for Theresa "I sat on the sidelines during Brexit even though I was in the remain camp" May
 
It's hard to "chill out and go on with life" when concerts are being bombed and children are being slain. That is not an acceptable solution. Doing nothing will only lead to gradual rise of fascism in europe.

Radical Islam must be neutralized. If the left fails to solve it then the hard right will take over.

If you haven't got any better tools in your toolbox than similar rhetoric to what we see from UKIP and the Daily Mail, then maybe you should rethink your strategy.
 

Meadows

Banned
RIP to all the victims, I cannot fathom these senseless acts of violence. And against children too, just awful. :(

This is sickening to see. I was in Manchester on Sunday for the first time in years and I really love the city. Have friends that live there that heard the booms and got in touch before any news broke. Absolutely crazy. They were at MEN for a Brian Cox show Sunday night, too. This is the second near miss they have had - they were on a train heading into London when the 7/7 bombings occurred. If they had got an earlier train, they would have been in the thick of it. They're understandably pretty shell-shocked at the moment. :(

Make sure you come back! Glad you like our city so much.
 
Whether we like it or not, Theresa May is the leader of this country. Elections be damned, she needs to be seen to be securing the country and offering a message of calm and resolve, which I'm glad she has.

Some things are more important than party political bickering.

Absolutely. And if the right thing today also happens to be politically beneficial for the Tories, then those of us who want to see them fail just need to deal with that and process that.

Even if the Tories weren't poised to win, and this turned the election... I sure as shit wouldn't be mad at the Tories for it.
 
You'd have better luck convincing your Aunt that Hillary didnt have Vince Foster killed than you would have convincing a hardcore religious person that they are wrong. There is no one on this planet with the ability to do either.
 

mindatlarge

Member
These sort of horrific tragedies are seemingly part of a continuing domino effect. Done under the reasoning of a "just war", in the radical person's mind, against the enemies of a radical minded group, who believe they are fighting a war as true servants of their god, which is a gross misinterpretation of their scripture. Their interpretation of scripture has lead us into this spiral of death and despair. Where the average Muslim is peaceful and loving, since they do not see a valid reason, under today's conditions, for resorting to violence and declaring war, these radicals do and have.

While we are used to seeing war among nations, soldiers against soldiers, the minds of the radical one sees the citizens of a nation as fair game, no matter the age or sex, to fight back against what nations they feel have wronged them as a group, again, even purposely targeting their civilians. How do you combat that sort of dangerous ideological thinking that can then lead to such terrible acts done against humanity?

Fundamentally, I don't think you can answer that question once a seed like this has been planted. When the laws that govern war are not being followed, we see mass chaos like this. This is a war being fought by many nations against a group of people that feel justified by scripture to carry out attacks against all people of nations who oppose them or they feel have wronged them. Pretty safe to say, that is every last one of us posting in this thread, and your families and groups of friends. That sort of hatred and evil is completely heartbreaking. The saddest realization is there may be no end in sight now that this sort of warfare is part of a radical religious mindset. Religion can be one of the deadliest pretexts to war and hardest to extinguish.
 
It's hard to "chill out and go on with life" when concerts are being bombed and children are being slain. That is not an acceptable solution. Doing nothing will only lead to gradual rise of fascism in europe.

Radical Islam must be neutralized. If the left fails to solve it then the hard right will take over.

ok so you completely ignored everything but the personal advice I wrote

"Radical Islam must be neutralized"

What does that even mean? We've had racial islam for over two decades now. Yes, it has changed form from more centralized organizations and has shifted to homegrown radicalization for some of the reasons I posted, but you sound like a politician fishing for votes when you say something like that. It's such a silly thing to say to such a complex issue.
 

Auctopus

Member
Some details from The Guardian about an Auntie who attempted to protect her daughter and niece from the blast. The two girls are being treated but the Auntie is now missing.

(Spoilered some of the finer details of the injuries - horrible stuff)

Paul Dryhurst's niece Kelly Brewster, 32, is feared to have been killed when she visited the Arena with her sister Claire Booth, and Claire's daughter Hollie, 11.

All three were caught in the blast and Claire, 34 and Hollie were today being treated in hospital for horrific shrapnel wounds.

Speaking from his home in Sheffield, Dryhurst Claire and Hollie were having bolts surgically removed from their bodies.

The 59-year-old lorry driver Paul, said: ”Kelly has shielded Hollie and Claire from the damage.

”The three were walking out in single file, with Claire in front, Hollie behind her, and Kelly behind her. When the bomb has gone off the impact has broken Claire's jaw and broken Hollie's legs. They are both currently in hospital having nuts and bolts removed from all places.

”Claire is having a bolt removed from her face and poor Hollie is having bolts removed all the way up her legs, to her bum, to her private parts."
 
As a resident of Manchester this is very upsetting, I have been to many gigs at the Arena over the years and I go Arndale most weekends with my GF.

Have been glued to the TV all day watching the news.
 
It's hard to "chill out and go on with life" when concerts are being bombed and children are being slain. That is not an acceptable solution. Doing nothing will only lead to gradual rise of fascism in europe.

Radical Islam must be neutralized. If the left fails to solve it then the hard right will take over.

Just in case you missed it, there was a big terrorist attack in New York a while back. After that the hard right did take over and bombed the living daylights out of the Middle East, and invaded a country for no reason whatsoever. What's the civilian death count by now? Is it already 200k? I know 100k was broken ages ago.

Attacking a whole region only strengthens radical Islam. When people are digging graves for their family members who died for no reason, it's easier to get them to jump to the dark side.
 

Preezy

Member
As a resident of Manchester this is very upsetting, I have been to many gigs at the Arena over the years and I go Arndale most weekends with my GF.

Have been glued to the TV all day watching the news.

I turned off after a while, it's just gratuitous misery porn now, endlessly repeating the same stuff over and over. Doesn't make anyone feel any better and doesn't actually provide much insight. The news coverage of recent atrocities has been pretty abhorrant.
 
I find it a bit tasteless to try and rank events like this. "This is the single greatest attack", stuff like that as if lives today matter more than they did say in WW2 during the blitz. It is especially bad when considering all the deaths no one gives a shit about which exceeds events like this exponentially.
 
I turned off after a while, it's just gratuitous misery porn now, endlessly repeating the same stuff over and over. Doesn't make anyone feel any better and doesn't actually provide much insight. The news coverage of recent atrocities has been pretty abhorrant.

I recommend that people just stick with the GM Police twitter feed. Regular accurate unsensationalised updates.

https://twitter.com/gmpolice/status/867029636743606272
 

Deepwater

Member
Here’s the thing. Let’s say for a moment that we _do_ need to go “maybe religion was a problem”

The issue with this “maybe religion was a mistake” logic is that very few, and I’m willing to bet none, of you are willing to walk through this logic for any other sort of tragic event of loss of life by radicalized individuals. Anytime a terrorist attack happens, you all crawl out the woodwork to flex your criminally basic reductionist argument of “maybe if we didn’t have religion this would never have happened”. So let’s take a second and walk through that logic for other kinds of events.

None of you were proclaiming “maybe white people were a mistake” when Dylan Roof shot up that black church. In fact, some of you were probably #notallwhitepeople’ing as it went down.

None of you were proclaiming “maybe men were a mistake” when Elliot Rodgers went on his rampage. In fact, some of you were probably #notallmen’ing as it went down.

And I know for a fact whenever there’s a thread about racism/sexism/bigotry over in the gaming side that yall would be quick to go #notallgamers.

Not all of these situations are exactly the same, and the approach to discussing them are different, but the point you’re willing to take a very complicated subject such as the one we have here and reduce it down to your pre-conceived bias as if you’ve come up with the simple solution to a problem that’s existed for decades is baffling. If you’re going to walk through this logic of “all religion is bad”, then you better be prepared to walk through the implications of what that means for groups you yourself might be a part of.

Few of you have a critical thought about combating radical islamic terrorism without addressing how it came to be in the first place. Maybe you should keep that in mind before you throw out your hot take
 

azyless

Member
Here’s the thing. Let’s say for a moment that we _do_ need to go “maybe religion was a problem”

The issue with this “maybe religion was a mistake” logic is that very few, and I’m willing to bet none, of you are willing to walk through this logic for any other sort of tragic event of loss of life by radicalized individuals. Anytime a terrorist attack happens, you all crawl out the woodwork to flex your criminally basic reductionist argument of “maybe if we didn’t have religion this would never have happened”. So let’s take a second and walk through that logic for other kinds of events.

None of you were proclaiming “maybe white people were a mistake” when Dylan Roof shot up that black church. In fact, some of you were probably #notallwhitepeople’ing as it went down.

None of you were proclaiming “maybe men were a mistake” when Elliot Rodgers went on his rampage. In fact, some of you were probably #notallmen’ing as it went down.

And I know for a fact whenever there’s a thread about racism/sexism/bigotry over in the gaming side that yall would be quick to go #notallgamers.
There are probably some good points in there but you're obviously dishonest with your phrasing.
I wouldn't take anyone that says "maybe white people are a mistake" seriously, same way I wouldn't take someone saying "maybe muslims are a mistake" seriously. But I don't think I've seen someone say this here, or if they have they will quickly get banned.
There's no reason religion itself shouldn't be up for criticism.
 

Deepwater

Member
There are probably some good points in there but you're obviously dishonest with your phrasing.
I wouldn't take anyone that says "maybe white people are a mistake" seriously, same way I wouldn't take someone saying "maybe muslims are a mistake" seriously. But I don't think I've seen someone say this here, or if they have they will quickly get banned.
There's no reason religion itself shouldn't be up for criticism.

Maybe your perception of the comments is dishonest.

A lot of people ITT are using religion as a dogwhistle for Islam, in particular. Even if they don't particularly care for others like Christianity, the context of many of the discussions is rooted in a belief against the good/bad of Islam
 
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