Support NeoGAF

[Septic360]

Oh fuck right off, 'And why is this thread so slow now? I believe it tells a lot, unfortunately' from a person who has posted in this thread twice, you're so quick to want to feel superior and correct that you just spout any old bullshit.

As for Morrissey. He can also fuck off. Skirting around his obvious beliefs of 'we should just blame Muslims! Just say 'Muslims' when he is actively avoiding actually saying it.

You're both claiming to be upset by an issue that you're both a part of. Him because he's clearly pussy-footing around saying what he's upset about people pussy-footing around (oh, and he's also wrong) and you because you come in with the self-righteous 'hmm, thread's a bit slow' when you've contributed twice in 3,200 posts.

If you want to come in and say 'I totes think we should blame all Muslims' then at least have the balls to say it and face argumentation.

Edit - Just a few notes on Morrissey's comments:
1) Condemning the PM for saying we 'won't be broken' because she's not injured nor anyone she knows has been injured is bullshit and would count for all but a small number of people in the UK.
2) What politics on immigration? Who should we not let in? Just say it.
3) As for Sadiq Khan, it literally takes two seconds to Google comments he's made on extremism in the past and how he's called in the community to help root these people out. Once again, no surprise its the Muslim mayor of London who is called out, weird that, isn't it? I haven't seen the Mayor of Bognor Regis condemn Islamic State either! Well, mainly because I don't know anything about him or wont try to look for any information, weird that, isn't it?
4) Queen. Oh, Queeny. Should she cancel her garden party? I don't actually care. I would rather terrorists not dictate our day to day life.
5) Andy Burnham apparently avoiding a word which Morrissey also avoids... Only, it also takes two seconds to see him discussing that the bombing was Muslim (albeit with the 'doesn't represent Muslims any more than Jo Cox's killer represents Brexit).

Both of you have been outright hypocrites so please spare us your half-truth and self-righteous indignation.

Spot on.

Morrisey himself is being a pussy.

He says:

In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private

Go on then; say it. Of course the likes of Milo would like his comment. What a load of utter bullshit

 

[King_Moc]

1) Condemning the PM for saying we 'won't be broken' because she's not injured nor anyone she knows has been injured is bullshit and would count for all but a small number of people in the UK.

This one is actually probably provable with maths. Bearing in mind there are around 600 MP's, I image terrorist attacks against them wildly outnumber ones against citizens when you account for the numerical differences between to two groups. There's been 5 MP's murdered in the last 40 years, then you have things like the assassination attempt against Thatcher.

And yeah, Morrissey and that poster both did the exact same thing. Just come out and say you want death camps for brown people, or whatever dumbass thing it is you want.

 

[Mikeside]

This one is actually probably provable with maths. Bearing in mind there are around 600 MP's, I image terrorist attacks against them wildly outnumber ones against citizens when you account for the numerical differences between to two groups. There's been 5 MP's murdered in the last 40 years, then you have things like the assassination attempt against Thatcher.

And yeah, Morrissey and that poster both did the exact same thing. Just come out and say you want death camps for brown people, or whatever dumbass thing it is you want.

Also Jo Cox pretty much counts as a terrorist attack imo.

 

[King_Moc]

Also Jo Cox pretty much counts as a terrorist attack imo.

The only murder of a UK MP that wasnt terrorism was Spencer Percival's. Weird that it was that one, considering he was the PM.

 

[Pankratous]

I can't speak to the US, but over here we take civilian control of the military very seriously.

You shouldn't expect them to follow your orders, but any civilian is considered to outrank any member of the armed forces - they're required to call you Sir or Ma'am and even in an emergency, all they can do is request things of you.

Damn, I had no idea.

I genuinely thought the military, once deployed, basically outranked everyone and made all the decisions, until such times they were no longer needed.

Thanks for the replies to my original comment about this from everyone else, too.

 

[Preezy]

"Perceval left a widow and twelve children aged between three and twenty"

the randy bugger

 

[Preezy]

Damn, I had no idea.

I genuinely thought the military, once deployed, basically outranked everyone and made all the decisions, until such times they were no longer needed.

Thanks for the replies to my original comment about this from everyone else, too.

Blame Hollywood.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You say this like this isn't already done. The problem is with widening surveillance that only a very small portion of people are actually a threat and it is very difficult to churn through the noise. And even in cases of known risks, the more you lower your criteria the less scrutiny you can afford.

How many people from the UK are traveling to regions where ISIS is active though? I can't imagine it being that many, and the people who would be wrongfully followed or maybe even refused entry to the country when they get back would be even smaller, since there is literally no reason to be there if you are not part of the UN, Red Cross or other organisations helping.

I guess the biggest problem is to actually be sure they went there, since they'll have to travel through other countries like Turkey and Egypt and then cross the border.

 

[mocoworm]

I live 30 minutes from the venue and a few people I know were there.

I want to post these links to articles in my local newspapers about my friend Brad and his fiancée, Georgina.

http://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/...helping_people_escape_terror_attack/?ref=fbpg

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/mum-describes-mayhem-at-manchester-arena-1-8559352

 

[mocoworm]

Also, please take the time to watch this incredible, poem from the vigil last night outside Manchester Town Hall, by Tony Walsh.

This completely encapsulates us Mancunians and the Manchester spirit.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/867072448721690624

 

[Theonik]

How many people from the UK are traveling to regions where ISIS is active though? I can't imagine it being that many, and the people who would be wrongfully followed or maybe even refused entry to the country when they get back would be even smaller, since there is literally no reason to be there if you are not part of the UN, Red Cross or other organisations helping.

I guess the biggest problem is to actually be sure they went there, since they'll have to travel through other countries like Turkey and Egypt and then cross the border.

Preventing them re-entering is not really possible because most are British Passport holders. Unless they have reasonable grounds they can also not be detained. And it's more people than you think though as you said most are journalists and aid workers but it's hard to ascertain what they are without an in depth investigation that takes time and resources.

That's where the noise problem comes in. Even in cases like the Westminster attack that were already under police surveillance there is very little that can be done. There is simply too much noise in running all these investigations at the first sniff of a potential threat.

 

[Xando]

How many people from the UK are traveling to regions where ISIS is active though? I can't imagine it being that many, and the people who would be wrongfully followed or maybe even refused entry to the country when they get back would be even smaller, since there is literally no reason to be there if you are not part of the UN, Red Cross or other organisations helping.

I guess the biggest problem is to actually be sure they went there, since they'll have to travel through other countries like Turkey and Egypt and then cross the border.

Last numbers were atleast 850 people went to fight for ISIS or support them in Syria/Iraq from the UK.

More than 400 returned to the UK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32026985

It takes 8-15 intelligence officers to surveilance one of these guys 24/7.

 

[Audioboxer]

Some more details

Police have named 22-year-old Salman Ramadan Abedi as the person suspected of carrying out the suicide attack at Manchester Arena on Monday evening.

Abedi was born in Manchester on New Year's Eve 1994 to Libyan parents, who had fled that country after becoming opponents of Colonel Gaddafi's repressive regime.

Abedi went to school in Manchester and on to Salford University before dropping out, and worked in a bakery.

His mother and father are now believed to be back living in Libya, and for a while he left the UK too, but he is believed to have returned in the past few days.

BBC home editor Mark Easton said the raided area was known to have been home to a number of Islamist extremists in recent years; some with links to Syria and Libya; some alive and some dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-400191...r-40007967&link_location=live-reporting-story

So he dropped out of Uni, and his parents are also back in Libya. Importantly, the area was known to have issues with Islamic extremism, so people going back to Syria/Libya really needed to be watched closely.

The man who carried out a suicide attack in Manchester was "likely" to have not acted alone, Home Secretary Amber Rudd says.

Police arrested three men in Manchester on Wednesday. Abedi's 23-year-old brother was arrested on Tuesday.

Hamid El-Sayed, who worked for the UN on tackling radicalisation and who now works at Manchester University, said Abedi had a "really bad relationship" with his family.

He said, according to a family friend, that Abedi's parents had tried to "bring him back on the right path and they failed to do that".

"Eventually he was doing very bad at his university, at his education, and he didn't complete, and they tried to take him back to Libya several times. He had difficulties adjusting to European lifestyle."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40023488

Confirmation of why the threat level is up, and of course it's men getting arrested. A little bit more on family life. Unsettled, not "adjusting to European lifestyle" and so on. Seems like all the signs were there.

 

[Juicy Bob]

I remember the Martyn Hett story about his mum's knitting going viral. It really touched me at the time.

Hearing that he was one of the victims of this is especially upsetting to me.

 

[Meadows]

I wouldn't be surprised if the SAS is about to knock down some doors in Libya. They have a presence there from the uprising.

 

[Xando]

BBC security correspondent:

#manchesterattack Bomber thought to have been a 'mule' using device built by someone else. More Govt announcements expected today.

https://twitter.com/FrankRGardner/status/867325212592930816

Explaines why they're scared of further attacks.

Who knows how many bombs they build.

 

[King_Moc]

BBC security correspondent:

https://twitter.com/FrankRGardner/status/867325212592930816

Explaines why they're scared of further attacks.

Who knows how many bombs they build.

I imagine the idiots they brainwash into wearing them are the rarer commodity.

 

[Dorsal Axe]

Last numbers were atleast 850 people went to fight for ISIS or support them in Syria/Iraq from the UK.

That reminds me that someone from my old school apparently joined ISIS (word got around when MI5 turned up to grill the headteacher). I shudder to think what he's up to at the moment, or what he might attempt one day.

 

[Acorn]

I imagine the idiots they brainwash into wearing them are the rarer commodity.

Yep plus creating bombs is difficult, hopefully they fuck it up and just blow themselves to pieces in an unpopulated area. Bastards.

 

[Preezy]

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Preventing them re-entering is not really possible because most are British Passport holders. Unless they have reasonable grounds they can also not be detained. And it's more people than you think though as you said most are journalists and aid workers but it's hard to ascertain what they are without an in depth investigation that takes time and resources.

That's where the noise problem comes in. Even in cases like the Westminster attack that were already under police surveillance there is very little that can be done. There is simply too much noise in running all these investigations at the first sniff of a potential threat.

I take it journalists and aid workers traveling there would register for that purpose beforehand though, so it will be known that they went there with a good purpose.

It's just when you are reading time and time again that these guys are known to police and intelligence agencies, sometimes even watched for extended periods of times already, have known to traveled to those areas, I think there should be some way to restrict them from returning or be free to get back into society before being sure they are not a threat.

Last numbers were atleast 850 people went to fight for ISIS or support them in Syria/Iraq from the UK.

More than 400 returned to the UK.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32026985

It takes 8-15 intelligence officers to surveilance one of these guys 24/7.

That's more then I would have thought. If the manpower isn't there for surveillance, we need to restrict them some other way. They went over to support a terrorist organisation and there is no reason not to flag them as an enemy combatant and arrest or refuse entry.

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

There is an issue with international rules that you can't make a person stateless I think. So I don't know how to handle that, or if these guys mostly have a double passport circumventing that problem.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

I would agree. However it leads to problems like Red Cross members. Though that could be solved with some more checking.

The real issue is that we don't really monitor who leaves as much as who comes.

 

[Theonik]

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

But it is. These people are UK citizens.

 

[ClosingADoor]

But it is. These people are UK citizens.

Those are laws. Laws can be changed when the situation calls for it. To not adapt your laws to new situations is foolish.

 

[Mikeside]

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

It's proving they're going there to fight.


My fianceé's dad is Iraqi & went home last year to say goodbye to his mother before she passed away.
There's are people here of Syrian descent who might need to do the same thing.
There are so many reasons people go to those places & it's having the manpower to track every one of them that's the problem.

 

[Acorn]

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

You can't make people stateless. International law.

By all means track and charge them as appropriate though.

 

[Xando]

Those are laws. Laws can be changed when the situation calls for it. To not adapt your laws to new situations is foolish.

Even if you change the laws. I think it would get struck down by ECHR.

 

[His Majesty]

Those are laws. Laws can be changed when the situation calls for it. To not adapt your laws to new situations is foolish.

But creating stateless people is also foolish imo.

 

[Pankratous]

Not sure if it's been posted, but the Daily Record (UK Paper) is reporting that Ariana Grande is going to pay for all the funerals of the victims.

A touching gesture.

I feel really bad for her as well. Although it is in no way her fault, she must feel an element of guilt.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Even if you change the laws. I think it would get struck down by ECHR.

Why though? Passports have been revoked earlier for people.

But creating stateless people is also foolish imo.

I mentioned that in a post above, that this would create issues. I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here most people from immigrant descent have two passports, so revoking one would not make them stateless. It is not a thing to be done lightly, but for people traveling to ISIS areas and supporting them, I think the situation is serious enough to do this.

 

[King_Moc]

I think it's kind of important to prove that someone has broken the law.

I mean, call me a filthy lefty if you wish, but it really seems like an important distinction to make.

 

[Preezy]

You can't make people stateless. International law.

By all means track and charge them as appropriate though.

Ah I see. Just arrest them all as they re-enter the country then I guess.

 

[Acorn]

Why though? Passports have been revoked earlier for people.


I mentioned that in a post above, that this would create issues. I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here most people from immigrant descent have two passports, so revoking one would not make them stateless. It is not a thing to be done lightly, but for people traveling to ISIS areas and supporting them, I think the situation is serious enough to do this.

He wasn't an immigrant. The majority of attackers here have been homegrown.

 

[Xando]

Why though? Passports have been revoked earlier for people.

You can only revoke citizenship if they already have another citizenship.

People can't be stateless.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Yep plus creating bombs is difficult, hopefully they fuck it up and just blow themselves to pieces in an unpopulated area. Bastards.

Partially depends on the type of bomb. A couple in my area were literally testing the things in their back garden (incidentally, being able to build a bomb doesn't necessitate being too bright in other faculties, as that's how they got caught), so some devices are relatively easier than others. We still don't know too much about the device itself beyond being a nail bomb.

 

[His Majesty]

Why though? Passports have been revoked earlier for people.


I mentioned that in a post above, that this would create issues. I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here most people from immigrant descent have two passports, so revoking one would not make them stateless. It is not a thing to be done lightly, but for people traveling to ISIS areas and supporting them, I think the situation is serious enough to do this.

agreed

He wasn't an immigrant. The majority of attackers here have been homegrown.

could still be having two passports (UK and Libya)

 

[Mr Git]

Yep plus creating bombs is difficult, hopefully they fuck it up and just blow themselves to pieces in an unpopulated area. Bastards.

Now I'm just thinking about Four Lions.

 

[ClosingADoor]

He wasn't an immigrant. The majority of attackers here have been homegrown.

I said immigrant descent. That way you can have two passports. At least over here, don't know if the UK allows it.

 

[Theonik]

I take it journalists and aid workers traveling there would register for that purpose beforehand though, so it will be known that they went there with a good purpose.

It's just when you are reading time and time again that these guys are known to police and intelligence agencies, sometimes even watched for extended periods of times already, have known to traveled to those areas, I think there should be some way to restrict them from returning or be free to get back into society before being sure they are not a threat.


That's more then I would have thought. If the manpower isn't there for surveillance, we need to restrict them some other way. They went over to support a terrorist organisation and there is no reason not to flag them as an enemy combatant and arrest or refuse entry.


There is an issue with international rules that you can't make a person stateless I think. So I don't know how to handle that, or if these guys mostly have a double passport circumventing that problem.

It's a very complicated issue. The Home Office considered revoking UK citizenship for dual citizens for serious offences but I don't think this can come to pass. In the first place you reach the problem that for those that don't have dual passports you can't do anything to make them stateless and you can't refuse entry. You also can't detain them without grounds. And the issue in the first place is they have no evidence that would pass in a court to do anything.

I don't think that solution could be passed without setting horrifying precedents and/or violating international law. That goes back to my previous post here. If stopping terrorists is to make us abandon our values and to change our ways of life, then it is clear that we are letting these terrorists win. I don't think this is a line worth crossing. If we had grounds to arrest them we would.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Spot on.

Morrisey himself is being a pussy.

He says:

In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private

Go on then; say it. Of course the likes of Milo would like his comment. What a load of utter bullshit

Oh fuck off Morrissey. I'm sick of this sentiment that the backlash people get for saying horrible things is somehow wrong. There have always been consequences for chatting shit, stop acting like your rights are somehow being infringed by people pointing out you're being a bastard.

 

[Audioboxer]

I think it's quite a fair and rational thing to suggest that when someone heads over to the Middle East to fight for ISIS, they should have their passports revoked and be banned from ever returning. Having a UK passport isn't some divine right that people are entitled to.

This isn't easy to do if it leaves them stateless. The more likely option is they get arrested on return and interrogated if there is probable cause. One of the biggest overarching difficulties with homegrown terrorism is everyone in the country has the same rights until there is evidence to convict/arrest. You cannot invade anyone's privacy or rights unjustly. Continual around the clock monitoring is also a challenge as well. However, when you have an individual this restless, from a known area of Islamisation issues, and then he's travelling abroad (even if the family is in Lybia) you really need to be on the ball.

I mean, when it's activity seen from areas which have issues

BBC home editor Mark Easton said the raided area was known to have been home to a number of Islamist extremists in recent years; some with links to Syria and Libya; some alive and some dead.

You simply have to divert resources to there to watch people/monitor. One issue we do have in the UK which many do seem to ignore is Islamisation of small ghettos or communities where there isn't any integration and it often does set up the foundations needed for radicalisation/spreading of propaganda (anti-West hate or anti-UK sentiment).

The police know where these people are, you always see almost instantaneous arrests AFTER a crime has been committed (same with London attack and multiple arrests over next 24 hours). The difficulty is how do you get into these areas, legally, prior to crimes being committed to try and use preventative measures.

There's no point in pretending we do not have issues with integration in the UK, we do, but it's always about how do you tackle social problems like this ~ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/10/uk-muslim-ghettoes-warning/

 

[Acorn]

Partially depends on the type of bomb. A couple in my area were literally testing the things in their back garden (incidentally, being able to build a bomb doesn't necessitate being too bright in other faculties, as that's how they got caught), so some devices are relatively easier than others. We still don't know too much about the device itself beyond being a nail bomb.

Hmm I think it's much harder to get materials now too though, I remember when they caught those guys in London because they bought too much fertiliser and were reported to the police by a garden centre worker iirc.

I said immigrant descent. That way you can have two passports. At least over here, don't know if the UK allows it.

Ah ok. Yes you can have dual nationality, but when someone is born here I can't see anyway we could do it.

 

[Ravensmash]

I love Morrisey's music but he clearly holds strong views that I don't agree with - not just in relation to this.

 

[Izuna]

I live 30 minutes from the venue and a few people I know were there.

I want to post these links to articles in my local newspapers about my friend Brad and his fiancée, Georgina.

http://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/...helping_people_escape_terror_attack/?ref=fbpg

http://www.wigantoday.net/news/mum-describes-mayhem-at-manchester-arena-1-8559352

This just made me cry

 

[Breakage]

BBC security correspondent:

https://twitter.com/FrankRGardner/status/867325212592930816

Explaines why they're scared of further attacks.

Who knows how many bombs they build.

Damn, so he wasn't even the bomb maker.

 

[Xando]

Partially depends on the type of bomb. A couple in my area were literally testing the things in their back garden (incidentally, being able to build a bomb doesn't necessitate being too bright in other faculties, as that's how they got caught), so some devices are relatively easier than others. We still don't know too much about the device itself beyond being a nail bomb.

A bomb that kills 20 people and injures another 50 is not some bomb you build in your back garden. That's some serious firepower and probably a similiar kind of IED as we saw in afghanistan (if not bigger).

 

[JonnyDBrit]

Hmm I think it's much harder to get materials now too though, I remember when they caught those guys in London because they bought too much fertiliser and were reported to the police by a garden centre worker iirc.


Ah ok. Yes you can have dual nationality, but when someone is born here I can't see anyway we could do it.

I think the primary aspect in that was suspicious behaviour, followed by an investigation. After all, it simultaneously shows how the actual material isn't too hard to pick up. If they'd just grabbed one or two sacks no-one would be any the wiser.

Edit:

A bomb that kills 20 people and injures another 50 is not some bomb you build in your back garden. That's some serious firepower and probably a similiar kind of IED as we saw in afghanistan (if not bigger).

I was commenting on the process of bomb making as an abstract process wherein a bomb maker, if we're lucky, might blow themselves up. The point of the reference being that the complexity is dependent on the type and make.

 

[King_Moc]

Hmm I think it's much harder to get materials now too though, I remember when they caught those guys in London because they bought too much fertiliser and were reported to the police by a garden centre worker iirc.

I used to work on maintaining a product database for a builders merchants and I had a couple of calls from anti-terror police asking what some product codes related to. I assume people on their watch list had bought things.

 

[TyrantII]

Those are laws. Laws can be changed when the situation calls for it. To not adapt your laws to new situations is foolish.

Taking away due process for that means yours can be taken away too. Not a road you want to go down with the billion pound security theater industry licking it's chomps.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's a very complicated issue. The Home Office considered revoking UK citizenship for dual citizens for serious offences but I don't think this can come to pass. In the first place you reach the problem that for those that don't have dual passports you can't do anything to make them stateless and you can't refuse entry. You also can't detain them without grounds. And the issue in the first place is they have no evidence that would pass in a court to do anything.

I don't think that solution could be passed without setting horrifying precedents and/or violating international law. That goes back to my previous post here. If stopping terrorists is to make us abandon our values and to change our ways of life, then it is clear that we are letting these terrorists win. I don't think this is a line worth crossing. If we had grounds to arrest them we would.

Suspect of aiding an enemy combatant is pretty good grounds to hold them. Seeing that we have some pretty serious attacks around Europe with people affiliated to ISIS, I don't think that it would be against our values to protect against that when there is a pretty decent suspicion they have been there.

Taking away due process for that means yours can be taken away too. Not a road you want to go down with the billion pound security theater industry licking it's chomps.

They are arrested when arriving back, checked and then we kick them out or lock them up longer. That is not taking away due process. We also lock up people suspected of murder or other crimes before their trial, because it is dangerous to leave them out in society.