You don't sound like you know what your talking about. People don't just get locked up because they're suspected of a crime.
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22 dead, 59 injured in Manchester Arena explosion (Being treated as an attack)
- Thread starter E-phonk
- Start date
You don't sound like you know what your talking about. People don't just get locked up because they're suspected of a crime.
lemmykoopa
Junior Member
Can these bombs be set of from a distance rather easily? Or does that require very complicated building?
Ongoing armed police raid two streets over from me.
Used to live on the other side of UMIST to that, also nearly bought a flat in Granby House in 2004...
Random.
Shit. Stay safe.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/23/mancunians-show-real-manchester-spirit-as-they-shout-down-edl-protesters-6655982/
Fucking EDL trying to take advantage of this situation to perpetuate their own wankery. Props to Mancunians for shutting them down. Even that police officer was basically calling them a bunch of cunts.
Fucking EDL trying to take advantage of this situation to perpetuate their own wankery. Props to Mancunians for shutting them down. Even that police officer was basically calling them a bunch of cunts.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Source?
Class act if so. In addition to all the other heartache of families who lost loved ones, wouldn't be surprised if Grande is feeling some heavy guilt for being the reason those people were there (however much that really isn't her fault).
Boy Wander
Member
People can be charged with a crime and held on remand until their trial date.
Also, people having done nothing didn't seem to stop the US holding people at Guantanamo for years .
Pankratous
Member
Daily Record paper posted it on Facebook, presumably on their website as well. Not sure if that's a banned site so not gonna link, but you should be able to find it.
Ongoing armed police raid two streets over from me.
Christ. Yesterday I work at home in Chorlton and they arrest the guy there, today I come into the office on Oxforfd Road - this is like three minutes away.
Urgh, the EDL are utter scum. Groups like them have hijacked the English flag, can't see one now without thinking the person displaying it is probably a meathead little Englander.
ClosingADoor
Member
You charge them. You lock them up until the trial. This happens all the time with people suspected to be a danger or a flight risk.
Theonik
Member
Innocent until proven guilty is a good rule of thumb in justice systems tbh.
Again if they had evidence they could use to detain they would. They don't.
Due process still applies.
E: Yes let's start arresting people on the suspicion they might be planning to perpetrate a crime.
That's definitely sensible. /s
JonnyDBrit
Member
Shit. Deepest condolences to you and your friends.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, you are right here. But, the authorities do need probable cause and/or some sort of likelihood of intent for harm/to commit a crime. It's not always easy to legitimately bring someone in.
As I said on the last page a lot of these arrests sweep through at magnificent speed AFTER an incident as that ends up the evidence needed that conspiracies to commit crime/aid in crime are prevalent. I mean, this guy committed suicide, it's not like he was questioned, but the authorities still knew at breakneck speed where to go to arrest/raid.
Fighting home-grown terrorism is an awfully complex task. We do have to rely on our intelligence agencies and authorities doing it right/lawfully, but at the same time if they do not do enough/slip up/aren't fast enough it can end in mass loss of life. To which you can certainly understand public unrest and despair. It's easy to have a calm and collected head arguing on NeoGAF hundreds of miles from an incident. It's probably not so easy the days after your family member/friend has been ripped apart by a nail bomb due to an individual displaying suspect behaviour/part of suspect surroundings not having been prevented/stopped.
I mean, is anyone really outright shocked it ended up being yet another single male living in an area known to the authorities for radicalisation? No, I don't think so. Largely speaking the authorities and intelligence services know where these people come from, and many are probably on watch lists right now (hence many quick arrests). It's what on earth we can do as preventative measures.
ManUnkindH
Member
For the people living in Manchester, is there a lot of police force all over town or just specific, busy places?
They're everywhere.
For those not from here, Manchester has a very dense, but compact, city centre, so it's pretty easy to fill it full of police.
Saw it on the mirror but is using not very legit sources all word of mouth at moment from reports
There are police and army over busy places all over the UK. I have seen a few armed police where I live.
ClosingADoor
Member
If someone travels to an area where ISIS is active and we know that, then isn't that kind of enough to go on as evidence to detain them until it is figured out if they are a threat?
We are not talking about someone going to a random country and detaining them upon arrival. I am saying that people who are traveling to Syria and Libya, known hotspots for ISIS activity and regions that pretty much nobody has anything to do outside of aid workers, should raise a red flag.
If you have an honest reason to travel there as an aid worker or journalist, you are registered as such and exempt from it.
You are talking about innocent until proven guilty, but we lock people up all the time before they are convicted, because we weigh the possible consequences of having them free in society. And I think that in these cases, those consequences can be so bad that we have a good reason to prevent them going back into society.
We also arrest people if they are suspected to be about to carry out an attack. We wouldn't we? Would you rather wait until they set off the bomb, or catch them before?
Theonik
Member
We need to use existing legal processes to assess the legal consequences of detaining any individual. You cannot detain anyone without a warrant. The problem is we don't have sufficient evidence to convince a court that it would possibly lead to a conviction so a warrant cannot be issued. That is how the legal system works. In the first place that's the mechanism what you are talking about is weighed, and it has ruled that we can't detain them.
True or not, I can't imagine how she feels right now. I'm not a fan, but I've heard she is super kind and always sings about acceptance and such. This is going to haunt her.
Yeah if this is true, I have some actual respect for her as a human. Really beautiful gesture. I think I'll drop her from my list of popstars to make fun of. Wouldn't want to be in her shoes right now, must be difficult times for her too.
ClosingADoor
Member
But aiding a terrorist organisation is a crime, isn't it? And going there is a pretty heavy suspicion that you are doing that. So I don't get why it would be so bad to detain them for it and then bring them to court over it.
And you are talking like all this stuff is set in stone. The courts follow the law. The laws can be changed to fit the situation. We do this on a daily basis for hundreds of different things. Now you can disagree and say that you don't think a change is necessary to make it possible to go after these people, but I think it is needed.
Yet immediately after the attack it is clear that the intelligence agencies had such a suspicion. I am going to assume they don't hold that same suspicion for everyone traveling to for example Turkey. So they must have some stuff that makes them think that.
GoldenCrow
Member
Its not like these people are just jumping on a plane to go into such countries. They travel to places that have no problems and regular tourist destinations then travel by car, train, foot, etc usually crossing where there is no security. It takes huge amounts of intelligence to find out if these people have actually gone into such areas and this information is spread across a huge network of different organisations. When they come back it isn't like they announce themselves either.
Big difference between suspicion and knowing. Often the suspicion in such cases is of them being sympathetic to such causes or supporters of the ideology but doesn't necessarily mean they are the type of people to act out on such thoughts and can be armchair fanatics. When people are directly linked to those suspected of terrorist activities they are immediately detained, and those that have looser links but there is suspicion are tailed and monitored.
Considering these agencies gathering data isn't just of those linked to Islamic organisations but also a huge range of different ideologies religious or otherwise it is often not as simple as oh this person is travelling to Turkey even though we suspect them of being sympathetic to extremist ideology, especially when often the choice of country in question they have links to. Plus that they won't always just directly fly to a country with the ability to cross a boarder.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
Five Live has just gone off air, place evacuated :/
For anyone interested in military presence, I just went to meet my Dad for lunch in Southampton, Hampshire (which for any Americans reading is basically the opposite end of the country to Manchester, on the South coast).
We have a large shopping centre here (very large) which was being patrolled by two armed soldiers and according to my Dad (who I met at the restaurant), two soldiers were also pacing up and down the high street.
We have a large shopping centre here (very large) which was being patrolled by two armed soldiers and according to my Dad (who I met at the restaurant), two soldiers were also pacing up and down the high street.
Ongoing armed police raid two streets over from me.
Oh shit my friend lives in Granby.
Audioboxer
Member
Theonik
Member
Try proving that in court. Again, the problem is that their suspicion is not substantial enough to issue warrants on. At best they can authorise further surveillance but after 9/11 we have given intelligence agencies so much data they simply can't seem to be able to make anything useful out of it.
Laws can be rewritten but they must be compatible with other laws though admittedly this is an area the UK is unique in that parliament reigns supreme. But imagine the precedent you are setting here for a moment. We already have the power to detain people subject to judicial review. You wish to surrender power to law enforcement to detain people on suspicion they might be religious extremists.
E: It is also how other people has stated. Already these people try to evade this suspicion by changing how they travel. Any blanket restriction like that will just mean they change how/where they meet or travel to those areas.
Correct, but they need to be charged with a crime.
Also, appealing to the war crimes of the United States isn't exactly a good argument. Most of the people in Guantanamo were quietly released because they they never committed any crimes and we're only suspected of doing do. The legal basis which is in doubt, and why the military can't try them in any court. They also weren't citizens of the US, which would have been even more illegal.
It's a stain on US history and will be there forever. It didn't make anyone safer, and anyone outside of the crazy GOP, especially those in the IC, have said it's made their job much harder.
Yeah the centre of town is tiny. I've also seen quite a few police vans patrolling further out though, around Chapel Street and Salford Crescent.
Pretty sure the guys in camo are SAS, since they were seen working with police on counterterrorism training and the police don't wear Multicam
Explains the gasmasks, everyone knows that's the source of the SAS's power.
Little Old Man
Member
A different city, but I saw just a single bobby today in Liverpool. There was a collection of flowers and candles being set up between the Met Quarter and the Radio City tower, which was very warming to see.
Off duty police officer killed in the attack.
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/867380449374502913
https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/867380449374502913
JonathanEx
Member
Canteen false fire alarm, I've just heard. Which is amusing in the end.
StrikeNinja24
Banned
It's only going to get worse.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nnopoulos-criticises-ariana-grande-pro-islam/
Looks like the alt right has gone to the point of directly blaming her for the attack and being anti American. Reading this got under my skin. Someone needs to punch Milo in the face.
You know I hadn't even registered in that pic that there were armed people in camo holy shit.
The father of the guy who blew himself up is saying his son (the one that blew himself) up is innocent? I heard on the radio today that the family told the authorities that he was "dangerous".