5 Things I Learned as the Internet's Most Hated Person

Im not sure if anyone cares about my opinion. I check neogaf multiple times pet day but I wouldnt say i am a gamer. I dont have a ps4 or an xbox one. I have a gaming PC which I haven't used for months. Currently I'm playing Mario gakaxy 2.


But I just wanted to say that this made me a bit sick., I can't see what that girl could have to deserve that kind of treatment.
 
not talking about sexism doesn't make it go away. exposing it and shining a harsh light on it could over time actually help.

I'm all for addressing sexism. It's an issue that needs work in society in general.

She gets to talk about the shit she has been put through, and if that means she is put through even more shit as a result, that isn't on her, because she shouldn't be put through shit for talking about unfairly being put through shit.

Why?
 
Im not sure if anyone cares about my opinion. I check neogaf multiple times pet day but I wouldnt say i am a gamer. I dont have a ps4 or an xbox one. I have a gaming PC which I haven't used for months. Currently I'm playing Mario gakaxy 2.


But I just wanted to say that this made me a bit sick., I can't see what that girl could have to deserve that kind of treatment.

You're a gamer. It's really a broad term that encompases a lot of people from different ways of life. Journalists should be celebrating that instead of saying we're dead.
 
I won't go into the entire indecent but I really don't like the way she immediately blames all this on being a woman; I'm a feminist myself but I wouldn't agree that the majority of the hate she's received has stemmed from her being a female.
 
I've been working on a game that talks about this stuff, so I've read a alot of interviews and write ups from people like Phil Fish, total biscuit, Adam orth, anita sarkeesian, and Adam Sessler. And what's so striking about this one in particular is how strong and resilliant she seems to be despite arguably getting it worse than all of these people. pretty amazing.

Yea, I've only started following her because of this debacle, but she is a legitimately cool person from what little I've seen of her; I am extremely impressed by how well she's emboldened herself in spite of this whole controversy.

It's really a shame, because I bet most of these harassers would actually like her if they actually got to know her.
 
I'm all for addressing sexism. It's an issue that needs work in society in general.



Why?

Because what she is doing shouldn't generate the hate she is getting. You blame the irrational people hating her what she is doing for their irrational actions. Not her, for their continued existence.

Unless you really think that she should stop talking out about being mistreated because of the actions of bigots.
 
I think that people who want to criticise Quinn's actions on legitimate grounds are frustrated at being thrown into the misogynist camp. The use of gender as a shield hurts more than it helps.

Whereas I think those very same people need to come to the realisation that what anybody does with their genitalia is none of their goddamned business in the first place.
 
Yea, I've only started following her because of this debacle, but she is a legitimately cool person from what little I've seen of her; I am extremely impressed by how well she's emboldened herself in spite of this whole controversy.

It's really a shame, because I bet most of these harassers would actually like her if they actually got to know her.
Yup yup.
 
Yea, I've only started following her because of this debacle, but she is a legitimately cool person from what little I've seen of her; I am extremely impressed by how well she's emboldened herself in spite of this whole controversy.

It's really a shame, because I bet most of these harassers would actually like her if they actually got to know her.

Even more impressive is that she struggles with depression. She's got a pretty damn good handle on it obviously, but fuck man, I don't suffer depression and I still don't know how well I'd handle this shit
 
I won't go into the entire indecent but I really don't like the way she immediately blames all this on being a woman; I'm a feminist myself but I wouldn't agree that the majority of the hate she's received has stemmed from her being a female.

Then explain why the guy who cheated on his wife with her, and the journalist who slept with her after writing positive stuff about her game have received a small fraction of the hate she has.

I'm not saying you can't explain it, but I genuinely don't know the explanation for that beyond her gender.

Since she has received more than twice the hate the men in this affair have received, I think it's perfectly fair to say that the *majority* of the hate she has received is because of her gender. Because if her gender was different she would have received less than half the hate she has.
 
I won't go into the entire indecent but I really don't like the way she immediately blames all this on being a woman; I'm a feminist myself but I wouldn't agree that the majority of the hate she's received has stemmed from her being a female.

flip it around then. if it was some male indie developer sleeping with female journalists with no evidence of wrongdoing whatsoever do you think there would be crazy conspiracy theories being made tying him to DARPA, scrutinizing everything he's done to try and find evidence of wrongdoing, and accusing him of manipulating the entire industry with the power of his cock?

frankly if that happened i would expect to see the journalists getting harassed and the dev largely left alone
 
But when she started doing interviews and articles about the state of sexism in gaming culture, she should have been ready for the backlash. It doesn't make sense to me to do a talk about how shitty women are treated on the internet, then act surprised that she, a woman, is treated poorly on the internet.

Hold on a minute. I imagine she knew there would be backlash when she spoke out about sexism, as it's happened to so many others. But that wasn't the source of the harassment in the first place. She got harassed when her game was greenlit on Steam, and she got harassed a lot more when her ex posted his diatribe on as many websites as he could.

Quinn's harassment is wrong, but it's not surprising.

Well, I was surprised by the extent of the harassment. I was surprised Phil Fish got doxxed over it too. Lots of people get random death threats and shit, sure, but this went way beyond anything else. I couldn't believe people were flipping out over something so insignificant.

Cut to a few weeks later: She's retweeting, making blog posts about, and engaging with the trolls again. This gives them more ammunition, and more power in the long run.

No it doesn't.
 
I won't go into the entire indecent but I really don't like the way she immediately blames all this on being a woman; I'm a feminist myself but I wouldn't agree that the majority of the hate she's received has stemmed from her being a female.

The men she slept with, some of whom are journalists, have received not a fraction of the scrutiny or abuse she has. What makes this especially transparent as a misogynistic attack is that the whole line of concern over journalistic integrity in gaming isn't even focusing on the fucking games journalists, but on the woman they slept with.
 
Hold on a minute. I imagine she knew there would be backlash when she spoke out about sexism, as it's happened to so many others. But that wasn't the source of the harassment in the first place. She got harassed when her game was greenlit on Steam, and she got harassed a lot more when her ex posted his diatribe on as many websites as he could.



Well, I was surprised by the extent of the harassment. I was surprised Phil Fish got doxxed over it too. Lots of people get random death threats and shit, sure, but this went way beyond anything else. I couldn't believe people were flipping out over something so insignificant.



No it doesn't.

This is what I don't understand. I'm still trying to process this. I just turned 28, have a kid on the way, and a good job so maybe I'm just too chill/mature to get riled up over stupid shit these days.
 
Nothing good ever comes from 4chan. Some of those tweets and death threats, smh.

And it was all for nothing.
 
From what I understand about this situation:
1) She had sex with 5 journalists to get better publicity for her game
2) She made up several hoaxes about being harassed for being a woman (before the whole gamergate thing happened)
3) The fact that she cheated on her ex was meant to show off her true character and that she wouldn't be above doing immoral things.

It's good that she got called out but everything else is excessive and not needed. It's a shame that we're not pursuing the easily corruptable "journalists".
Missed the story by that much.
 
That said: there are issues with saying the gaming community is "white males, college educated, racist, misogynist." It's a terrible generalization that's caused a lot of backlash. First, it puts at gamers the defensive, such as boogie's youtube video "I'm not a bigot, are you?".

Second, it marginalizes the rest of us who are not white, not racist, not misogynist because we either have to defend ourselves, or deny affiliation with something we enjoy.

Third: because this movement and general atmosphere is coming from outside gaming culture, it places even more people on the defensive because it's coming from a movement that criticizes, but has done little to actually change things.

I'd like to respond to each of your points with my opinion.

Firstly, I do not see a problem with generalisations. They are useful and fundamental tools of discourse and logic. They are only a problem when they ignore certain contexts or nuances that may alter one's perspective of the topic. In my opinion, it is a fair generalisation to say that the medium of video games, on balance, is a largely backward one in many respects.

I doubt that many people are saying that the video games community is literally made up entirely of white, misogynistic males. The point of this generalisation here is that some ideologies have predominance over others. The industry as a whole, from every stage of the supply chain, is therefore predominantly racist, misogynistic, and gender-normative. We can see this in the products, where white male protagonists have the most representation while female characters are reduced to tropes; we can see this in the development process, where female developers are discriminated against by co-workers or bosses and given fewer professional opportunities; we can see this in the audience, where the slightest sign of "politically correct" content in their video games is seen as a threat to the status quo, and where female gamers are disrespected in a number of ways in both online communities and single-player content.

This generalisation does put people on the defensive, there is no doubt about that. Nobody likes being branded a racist, or a sexist. These are terms that people will immediately jump to deny without first considering it as a possibility, without considering that not all actions need to be malicious in order to be hurtful, or without considering that racism and sexism can be unconsciously propagated. Those who are critical will examine and reflect upon these accusations, and those who are stubborn will decry these as part of a "social justice warrior" epidemic. All of this is unfortunate – and perhaps there are ways to mitigate this, by framing these ideas in less hostile ways – but a message is ultimately only as successful as its receivers' ability to comprehend it.

Secondly, it should be evident to the critical reader to whom an article or writing is geared towards. Those who are not racist, misogynistic and so on would understand that they are not included in this generalisation, that the article addresses systemic issues which inherently necessitate a degree of generalisation, and would furthermore support such activism that aims to dispel these issues.

Thirdly, if you are referring to the feminist movement, then I would heavily disagree that it has not effected change. It undeniably criticises, but I cannot think of a social movement in history that did not. I do not see criticism as a bad thing, either.
 
Hold on a minute. I imagine she knew there would be backlash when she spoke out about sexism, as it's happened to so many others. But that wasn't the source of the harassment in the first place. She got harassed when her game was greenlit on Steam, and she got harassed a lot more when her ex posted his diatribe on as many websites as he could.

I don't know anything about her game, or any harassment attached to it. Don't really care since every developer gets harassed over their games.

What her ex did was fucked up, and the harassment from that was wrong. I think we agree there.



Well, I was surprised by the extent of the harassment. I was surprised Phil Fish got doxxed over it too. Lots of people get random death threats and shit, sure, but this went way beyond anything else. I couldn't believe people were flipping out over something so insignificant.

I think the harassment grew after the initial reports were censored on popular gaming sites and reddit. It was surprising to me too.

Phil Fish is an asshole with a chip on his shoulder.



No it doesn't.

Explain this part for me.

Whereas I think those very same people need to come to the realisation that what anybody does with their genitalia is none of their goddamned business in the first place.

Yup, it was between her and her ex boyfriend. Her ex made it public.

Because what she is doing shouldn't generate the hate she is getting. You blame the irrational people hating her what she is doing for their irrational actions. Not her, for their continued existence.

Who are the irrational people here? Just the one's issuing death threats, or people who don't approve of her actions in response to the initial harassment?


Unless you really think that she should stop talking out about being mistreated because of the actions of bigots.

I find 'mistreated because of the actions of bigots' really funny. I think bigots are treating her like a bigot would.

She can speak out all day and night about it, and I'll never attack her for it. I'm also not going to rush to her defence, because it's literally not my problem. I also believe that this 'dialogue' of sexism in gaming is heavily skewed and one-sided, and that sexism on the internet is reflective of sexism in society.

I don't think she's being attacked for just being a woman, but because of her actions in response to the whole thing. Like I said earlier, anyone who tries to critique Quinn is seen as a misogynist, which ends the debate by discrediting critics.
 
This 'two extremes' framing needs to stop.

One extreme wants women not to suffer misogynistic bullshit and is openly angry about it. The other wants gaming to remain a place where they can be openly misogynistic.

One of these extremes is not as extreme as the other.

Oh, and one of them deserves to get shit thrown at it.
One extreme is lumping all gamers together, calling them sexist misogynists when it's really just a fraction that consists of idiots.
 
I don't think she's being attacked for just being a woman, but because of her actions in response to the whole thing. Like I said earlier, anyone who tries to critique Quinn is seen as a misogynist, which ends the debate by discrediting critics.

Her actions? You mean telling people harassing her to fuck off? Yea how dare she tell people such things! That whore! *rolling eyes*
 
I think that's the only thing I give a shit, but I don't feel the need to express my harsh opinion about this woman in public.

Thing she should learn:
- Be sincere to your boyfriend and stop fucking other guys.

What's it to you? The person who made the lunch you ate today, the person who drew the design on the t-shirt you're wearing, the guy that cut your hair, the guy who made the music you just listened to and the woman who worked on the video game you play tonight ALL have some personal faults and habits you don't share or approve of. One is a litterbug, one is cheating on their significant other, one hasn't paid their taxes in years, one picks their teeth with their toenails, another one disagrees with you politically. Stop worrying about it.

note: exact hypotheticals may vary, but premise remains true.[/fakespoilertag]
 
Has anyone actually criticised the journalists Zoe Quinn allegedly slept with to allegedly get good reviews?

My understanding of how corruption works is that generally the person who accepts the bribe is considered as morally culpable as the person that offers it.
 
I actually do use the term but it's what I call angry kids on mobas. Apart from that I just don't use it.

I believe that cuts to the point of the 'death of gamers' articles: it's essentially nothing but a contextual language tool, a social term which is used in various ways (think what a "gamer" is to your aunt wishing her nephew played outside more, think what a "gamer" is to a Sony executive marketing their new console, etc). The "gamer" of five years ago is arguably a useless social term today. The consumer landscape, as well as the industry itself, has changed so much, from the phone game boom to the indie development boom. We, or perhaps 'they', whoever cares enough need more varied social terms to describe "a person who plays video games". The audience encompasses far more than the super-dedicated gamers, the type who are most likely to, probably on an internet chatroom, assert that they're the real gamers, or so the 'death of "gamers'" articles argue. All this has, indeed, been chewed through in the GamerGate thread.

For something more specific to the harassment that Quinn faced over the last month or so, have you all gone through this blog selecting - or "cherry-picking" if that's your angle - sample quotes from the IRC logs of those attempting to drive the character attack?
This and this.

Should go without saying, but the contents of those links are beyond foul.
 
One extreme is lumping all gamers together, calling them sexist misogynists when it's really just a fraction that consists of idiots.

You think name-calling for a flimsily constructed "group" like "gamers" is equal to the harassment received for simply being a woman on the internet?
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.
 
Phil Fish is an asshole with a chip on his shoulder.


I'm gonna be honest, just from your few junior posts on this forum so far, I already think you're also an asshole with a chip on their shoulder. Do you deserve to be doxxed? Infinite internet harassment?

You know how many assholes there are on GAF who think Japanese games suck? Or whatever else Phil Fish is supposedly guilty of?

Should everyone here be doxxed?

The whole internet is full of people who think their opinion is the one true correct opinion. Open up any Android or iOS thread and look at everyone calling everyone else braindead. The things Phil Fish has said on Twitter and elsewhere would make him an average GAF user. He's done nothing more than say some basic opinions. At very worst he deserves someone saying, "Hey, I disagree with you and here's why.." He has done nothing that deserves any level of harassment.
 
You think name-calling for a flimsily constructed "group" like "gamers" is equal to the harassment received for simply being a woman on the internet?
Okay, not quite. I give you that. But I don't think she and some of her supporters gain anything from villifying every gamer out there. Quite to the contrary, it has probably hurt her cause.
 
I'm gonna be honest, just from your few junior posts on this forum so far, I already think you're also an asshole with a chip on their shoulder. Do you deserve to be doxxed? Infinite internet harassment?

You know how many assholes there are on GAF who think Japanese games suck? Or whatever else Phil Fish is supposedly guilty of?

Should everyone here be doxxed?

The whole internet is full of people who think their opinion is the one true correct opinion. Open up any Android or iOS thread and look at everyone calling everyone else braindead. The things Phil Fish has said on Twitter and elsewhere would make him an average GAF user. He's done nothing more than say some basic opinions. At very worst he deserves someone saying, "Hey, I disagree with you and here's why.." He has done nothing that deserves any level of harassment.

great post.
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.

victim blaming, slut shaming, this post has it all!

Okay, not quite. I give you that. But I don't think she and some of her supporters gain anything from villifying every gamer out there. Quite to the contrary.

i think context matters. the type of self-identifying gamer they're referring to is quite different than someone that simply has an interest in the hobby.
 
One extreme is lumping all gamers together, calling them sexist misogynists when it's really just a fraction that consists of idiots.

And do you honestly think over generalizing about gamers is as extreme as 'the other extreme'?

I'm a self identifying gamer (and horror fan... and a few other things) and I don't feel vilified by articles like 'You don't have to appeal to gamers' and whatever, because it was pretty clear what that person meant when they said 'gamer' and it wasn't me.

But seriously, it's a complete distraction, and just an argument about semantics at the heart of it. Like when I say 'children can be cruel' when talking about bullying, I'm not saying every child is a bully. Gamers can be assholes. Is it so important that I say 'some'? As if you or I have any confusion about what I meant?

Do I also have to say 'in my opinion' as well? Just in case that wasn't clear, right?
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.

I'd take another look at what you said here, man. Sounds a lot like you're blaming the victim here, not sure if that's what you mean. She has every right to take whatever photos she wants and not have them spammed across the entire internet.
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.

"she had it coming"
 
One extreme is lumping all gamers together, calling them sexist misogynists when it's really just a fraction that consists of idiots.

If people saying the gaming community has a huge problem with sexism is insulting you personally, you should step back and breathe. Nobody is saying to you personally that you are sexist. You're not? Fine! They're not talking about you then. But a big portion of the "gamer" community his. If you still find that offensive, then I don't know what to say.
 
Not everybody hates her.

wjWgqEh.png
 
Okay, not quite. I give you that. But I don't think she and some of her supporters gain anything from villifying every gamer out there. Quite to the contrary.

yknow, im not offended when "gamers" as a whole are criticized because i know their not talking about sane and rational people who play games, they're talking about assholes who play games... which actually seems like a fine subcategory to assign the 'gamer' term too, i pretty much already do that personally. maybe we should all use "gamer" for that.
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.

The nude pictures were from a paid porno shoot for some obscure porno website. When everything was in full flow someone paid for access to the site and then started sharing the pictures around.
 
I know that she does not have to stop for any one, and that she should be able to post anything that she wants on whatever site, but is it really worth the abuse she will inevitably get? If she defends herself, abuse. If she says sorry, abuse. If I received constant abuse from anywhere, I would stop visiting that site.
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.

For fucks sake.

Please try again.

This time, read the article that the thread is discussing and try to shy away from expressing the opinion "if a woman takes nude photos of herself and they get spitefully leaked on the internet, she has no-one to blame but herself."
 
I dont need to read this article to know that this chick was an idiot. Im sorry but in this day and age I dont understand how people can still take nude photos of themselves and not expect them be sent all around. If your man needs something to j/o to while you arent around, tell him to go to pornhub.

sup gamer.
 
For fucks sake.

Please try again.

This time, read the article that the thread is discussing and try to shy away from expressing the opinion "if a woman takes nude photos of herself and they get spitefully leaked on the internet, she has no-one to blame but herself."

"if a woman wears sexy leggings, how dare she get upset if she's cat-called!"
 
The nude pictures were from a paid porno shoot for some obscure porno website. When everything was in full flow someone paid for access to the site and then started sharing the pictures around.

so just copyright theft with the intent of ruining someone's reputation then.

I guess that's okay?
 
I know that she does not have to stop for any one, and that she should be able to post anything that she wants on whatever site, but is it really worth the abuse she will inevitably get? If she defends herself, abuse. If she says sorry, abuse. If I received constant abuse from anywhere, I would stop visiting that site.

So the only valid response is to disappear, just as those harassers want? Genius!
 
I dunno man, if a person likes movies or music I just call them a person.

I understand this point of view but I think there's a difference in the way media is enjoyed between movies/music and games in that movies and music are far more universal.

Simply "liking" movies and music really doesn't need a label because nearly everyone likes movies and music. I've heard anecdotally of people who don't like one or the other, but it's like hearing about your cousin's girlfriend's ex roommate from college who totally loved peanut butter and dried cod sandwhiches with pickle relish. I've never met that person or anyone with that kind of experience and doubt the veracity of the claim.

Games, on the other hand, are different. You can't throw a rock without hitting someone who doesn't play games... Many, ponderously, proudly so. It's very polarizing in some respects. Given that, I think "gamer" still works as a term for "someone who plays games".

The caveat there is I think it definitely has a shelf life. As games become more and more commonplace, it's certainly on its way to losing any sort of meaning. I don't think we're there yet, but I understand why others might.

As a corollary, I think we've already reached that point with "gamer culture" (or more appropriately "gamer subculture"). As the generation who grew up with video games which defined "gamer culture" in the past now has children of their own, "gamers" now include vastly different generations with a much greater spectrum of language, norms, symbols, etc. to the point where there is no single "gamer culture". Some will say there never was, but that's probably a debate best left for another conversation.
 
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