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7-year-old girl shot and killed at MI soccer practice by ‘paranoid’ man with CCW

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I'm assuming that since the police could give a fairly specific description of the man's frame of mind his symptoms must have been either readily apparent or known by readily accessible people. I can't extrapolate a cause from just the symptoms, but knowing the symptoms should be enough for anyone to see this man shouldn't have a gun.

This is why psychological testing on purchase and frequent renewal of lisence is absolutely necessary - many psychological risk factors are not so apparent.

I absolutely agree. One of my co-workers had a neighbor who suffered with pretty severe paranoia (thought bats were following him and were controlled my the government etc) only started seeing a psych recently (according to my coworker). I have no idea how long he had been dealing with that for, but it must have been over four years based on when my co-worker moved there.

It's scary stuff.
 
It really isn't appropriate to attribute the actions of an individual to an entire group, regardless of your political beliefs. This is an unfathomable and unforgivable crime but one guy is not representative of an entire group no matter how convenient it is to pretend otherwise.

As much as I hate guns and hate how easy it is to get them, even I can see the foolishness in using one person as an example to make a flippant insinuation about all gun carriers.

One mentally ill person did something terrible therefore tens of millions of others meeting a similar demographic do terrible things. Ok.

Because this is the first ever example of someone who is fucked up buying a gun and using it. Oh wait...
 

MercuryLS

Banned
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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/michele-fiore-gun-christmas-card

'murica, at its finest, disgusting country. Truly the shittiest first world nation.

Edit: this is unfair, I know there are many reasonable Americans that are pro gun laws reform. It's just frustrating seeing this shit again and again.
 

prag16

Banned
You can't prove it because congress banned research on it at the behest of the NRA.

This is kind of off topic to a degree, but I find it kind of outrageous that people can accuse the government of such evil treachery, but in other topics, the hivemind just thinks there's NO CHANCE there could be any such treachery with regard to other topics such as GMO foods or God forbid vaccines. In cases like that the official goverment line is gospel, even though big ag and big pharma wield a shit ton more lobbying power than the NRA.

I'm sure it's not all the exact same posters taking both stances (though I'd be surprised if there's not a ton of overlap), but just calling it like I see it.
 

UFO

Banned
Am I wrong? Are you fucking serious? You are just another one that doesn't understand the extent of the problem.

And you're just another person exaggerating the extent of the problem. Gun violence, and any violence, has been happening since the dawn of mankind. Just because it's getting reported now more then ever doesn't mean it's happening more now then ever.

at a certain point, being a "responsible gun owner" means understanding that it's part of your responsibility to make sure that things like this don't happen. even if that means sacrifices on your part.

And a lot of gun owners are willing to make sacrifices, but what extent should they be forced to sacrifice? The majority of gun owners don't consider themselves dangerous or a liability and don't see why they should be forced to give up their constitutionally protected firearms. Maybe they would be if you could guarantee no more murders would happen, but thats not going to happen.

But, the anti-gun freaks have no merit, no pull, no lobby, no industry supporting their views. The entire world is 'overreacting' to the violence in america. If that means being amazingly perplexed at how asinine it is that there is a debate going on in a thread about someones kid getting headshotted at a soccer game by an insane person. There is no both sides here. Theres the gigantic gun lobby, and people bitching about being helpless. The gun lobby is going to continue record breaking sales, that hasn't stopped. That is the main problem, there are too many guns in the country. The problem isn't how people frame their anti-gun arguments. The problem is that gun manufacturers are flooding the country with lethal weapons, and sidling up to politicians to prevent any meddling.

People started buying guns in droves when the talks about banning them started. The government is a huge problem, so how about fixing that? How about some rage towards politicians who are bought by corporations? I rarely see that. All I see is the 2 top polled candidates are the 2 top corporately backed candidates.
 

f0nz0

Member
Maybe their mindset will change when something like this happens to them.

reminds me of the sudden tolerance certain politicians have had to gay rights once they found out one of their children is gay..

Im raising 2 daughters in this world.. just the THOUGHT of something like this happening makes me mad and ashamed at the humans who say we don't need gun control.
 
Because gun ownership itself is a mental illness, born of paranoia and inadequacies.

I disagree with that.

I have a couple of close friends who have bolt action rifles for the purpose of pig hunting (Wild pigs are a physically dangerous, disease spreading pest in Australia). They use the rifles for the express purpose of exterminating the pigs from farmland and acreage properties, and at all other times they are unloaded and locked up.

There's nothing wrong with that, and they are all of sound mind. Had to go through months of signing permits and getting licenses, and had to join shooting ranges in order to obtain their guns. It's much safer here.
 
look at all dem militia members, ready to take on the us government at a moments notice and lead one of many groups working towards MORE FREEDOMS AND LIBERTY with their law degrees!

Yeah, those pistols, shotguns and smg's are going to ensure a free state against the us government, who own tanks... And drones... And an airforce... And highly trained soldiers.

It's so silly.
 
He didn't say that. What he said is that anybody (not everybody) with a gun can use it on innocent civilians in the blink of an eye.
This is the problem, and its always been the problem, and its an unanswered problem.

Its also why armed protests freak people out rather than win those people over to the firearms == freedom cause.

All it takes is one bad day, or one small mistake and a life is extinguished. And more lives are just as quick to destroy as a weapon's lethality and ease increase. Add training or a sick mind and you end up with tragedies that shock the world.
 

Paracelsus

Member
The gun argument is there, in this thread turned into a strawman. As nasty as this sounds, a
paranoid
man doesn't need a gun to kill a 7 year old girl in seconds. This isn't like that swedish guy stabbing people left and right, but "at least he didn't have a gun".
 

besada

Banned
Here's the thing about mental illness and guns. People's mental health changes. So you may be a completely mentally stable individual when you buy the gun, but because the U.S. requires no continuing checks for gun owners, there is absolutely no oversight regarding people whose mental health status changes.

1 in 4 adults experience some form of serious mental illness in a given year. Many people will experience some form of mental illness over their lifetime, with major depression being the most common.

Mentally ill isn't necessarily something you are or you aren't; for many people it is a transitory condition. For others, it's chronic. But even when discussing the forms of chronic mental illness, many of them don't appear until people are in their thirties. It's a common time for mood disorders and schizophrenia to crop up, in men in particular, because their brains have on finally stopped changing.

So the responsible gun owner at twenty-five might be the guy who thinks meter maids are controlling his mind, and go on a shooting spree. As long as there's a feeble, one-time check to see if you've been forcibly committed, and no follow up, we'll never successfully deal with the juncture of mental illness and firearms that have caused so much tragedy.

Finally, as always, remember that the vast majority of mentally ill people will never commit an act of violence, that most violent crimes are due to factors other than mental illness, and that the person most endangered by a mentally ill person having a gun is themselves.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
NOTHING short of a BAN on guns will solve any of the bullshit happening around the country.
Well, a ban isn't happening, so it's time to figure out what better gun laws can do in a situation where people still own guns.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
People like you are the reason change happens so slowly in this country. You're just as ridiculous as the people staunchly opposed to gun control. Nothing ever happens when both sides refuse to meet in the middle. But whatever, keep overreacting, if you feel like it helps.

How many more people have to die so this isn't overreacting anymore? Give me a number.
 
The gun argument is there, in this thread turned into a strawman. As nasty as this sounds, a
paranoid
man doesn't need a gun to kill a 7 year old girl in seconds. This isn't like that swedish guy stabbing people left and right, but "at least he didn't have a gun".

The structure of your argument is a bit confusing, are you saying that it doesn't matter if he could get a gun, because there's other ways to kill people quickly?
 

Ourobolus

Banned
The gun argument is there, in this thread turned into a strawman. As nasty as this sounds, a
paranoid
man doesn't need a gun to kill a 7 year old girl in seconds. This isn't like that swedish guy stabbing people left and right, but "at least he didn't have a gun".
Maybe not in this specific case, but restricting availability of items that make killing far easier than others is a step in the right direction. I don't put up a fence and cameras around my office to keep out all criminals - just the ones that don't have the drive to go the extra mile.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood

commedieu

Banned
People started buying guns in droves when the talks about banning them started. The government is a huge problem, so how about fixing that? How about some rage towards politicians who are bought by corporations? I rarely see that. All I see is the 2 top polled candidates are the 2 top corporately backed candidates.

I agree guns are a huge problem in america, as is the government. Fixing the government goes hand in hand with fixing our gun problem imo. Won't get an argument from me there. Lets address all the problems we can immediately. Guns and Government need to be fixed right now. Lets do it!

I WANT TO BELIEVE.

What I don't want to do is finger pointing at the Government/politicians when all adults know how Gov works. Money talks. The gun manufacturers have more. There are steps that our nation can mimic from other nations. Its very simple when its not being blocked by lobbies. Getting money out of government is like saying when hell freezes over. Its fluff, its nothing real. Its not a real sentiment unless we are talking a full nation wide revolution outing congress/senate and fighting with the military. Its not going to be done by voting where you've been redistricted to vote.

If you are saying politicians and the gun lobby are equal in their responsibility, I agree 100%. Rage means little when Politicians don't represent the values of citizens, but the lobby that got them the seat.
 

Key2001

Member
Indeed it is going to take a lot of work to curb America's gun problem. The first steps should be as peaceful as possible with buyback programs and other positive incentives for the populace to disarm themselves, but at some point you're going to need to bring in those who don't give it up.

I'd go out and volunteer for the first candidate who openly would endorse the use of means both peaceful and forceful to start reigning in gun owners in this country. There are a lot of really crazy holdouts that won't give an inch without blood being spilled first.

I doubt a gun backback program would work. They would have to offer a fair value for each gun bought back rather than scrap prices. Australia's worked because there wasn't even a fraction of the amount of guns bought back as there are guns in the US.

Utter bollocks.

There is no middle to meet in, the NRA keeps it off-limits.

So all you have is a dam waiting to burst, and it will at some point. One side is on the wrong side of history right now, and they know it.

You don't think the NRA doesn't like it when someone from the anti-gun side starts advocating for all guns to be banned and forcefully taken?

There are plenty of gun owner that doesn't side with the NRA and is for increased gun control but they are not going to side with a side that is advocating for all guns to be banned and forcefully taken and at times calling all gun owners are murderers.

It is also the same for the anti-gun side, the non-extremes are prevent from siding with the gun owner side due to the extreme gun owner side that has the backing of the NRA. There are not only 2 sides but the extremes on both sides makes it seem that way. That's how the NRA wants it and why nothing continues to be done.
 

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
I'll say this about guns: I don't think I've ever heard of someone accidentally killing themselves or their child in a tragic knife cleaning accident.
 

prag16

Banned
Well, a ban isn't happening, so it's time to figure out what better gun laws can do in a situation where people still own guns.

This. Like it or not, a ban is not going to happen any time remotely soon in the United States. That's just the reality of the situation. Instead of screaming for a ban, (let alone mass confiscation; even less chance of happening), it'd be more productive to come up with some other ideas that are more realistic.
 

Slayer-33

Liverpool-2
Well, a ban isn't happening, so it's time to figure out what better gun laws can do in a situation where people still own guns.

I know.. If it's even suggested, the nuts will burn everything to the ground. Like an infant throwing a tantrum
 

RS4-

Member
It should never have been this easy to own a gun. Should've had yearly evaluations, testing, etc, at the cost of the gun owner.
 

GorillaJu

Member
Damn, even after saying that I hate guns and I hate how easy it is to get them, I still get labelled a gun apologist and a gun enthusiast in the first page just because I think it's disingenuous and harmful to imply that all CCW owners are irresponsible.

This place is becoming more and more of an echo chamber where anyone challenging common "wisdom" is immediately ostracized.

All I'm saying is that we should remove the tools because there are some psychos who will use them to kill, but that implying that any gun owner could snap and kill a 7 year old at any moment is not a helpful viewpoint to have.
 
Damn, even after saying that I hate guns and I hate how easy it is to get them, I still get labelled a gun apologist and a gun enthusiast in the first page just because I think it's disingenuous and harmful to imply that all CCW owners are irresponsible.

This place is becoming more and more of an echo chamber where anyone challenging common "wisdom" is immediately ostracized.

All I'm saying is that we should remove the tools because there are some psychos who will use them to kill, but that implying that any gun owner could snap and kill a 7 year old at any moment is not a helpful viewpoint to have.

I get what you're saying, but I would rather have nobody have guns, rather than 1 million people having guns, and 100 of those people thinking "I can use this to shoot people I dislike/am scared of."
 

Maximus.

Member
No one needs to own guns. Look at all the countries were guns are not common place and see how uncommon fucked up news like this is. America grow the fuck up.
 
Maybe bans on the local level.

Town/City residents need to demand this shit.

Would definitely be interesting to see if a state could ban guns, but it's hard when you can go over the state line and bring one back. (I'm assuming there's no checkpoints between states in America?)
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
You don't think the NRA doesn't like it when someone from the anti-gun side starts advocating for all guns to be banned and forcefully taken?

There are plenty of gun owner that doesn't side with the NRA and is for increased gun control but they are not going to side with a side that is advocating for all guns to be banned and forcefully taken and at times calling all gun owners are murderers.

It is also the same for the anti-gun side, the non-extremes are prevent from siding with the gun owner side due to the extreme gun owner side that has the backing of the NRA. There are not only 2 sides but the extremes on both sides makes it seem that way. That's how the NRA wants it and why nothing continues to be done.

The NRA is playing both sides, take that out of the equation and meaningful legislation would ease the pressure and what people call for.

But it is there, so you are left waiting for the dam to burst and counting the tragedies until it does.

Focus your fire on the one preventing change, not those frustrated at there being none.
 
No one needs to own guns. Look at all the countries were guns are not common place and see how uncommon fucked up news like this is. America grow the fuck up.

Once again, some people do need to own guns. I know farmers who have bolt action rifles to kill dangerous wild pigs/boars (Australia) to protect their livestock/property.

But that's a very specific situation. And very different to the guns you can get in the US.

A lot less powerful. A lot harder to get.
 

Demoskinos

Member
It really isn't appropriate to attribute the actions of an individual to an entire group, regardless of your political beliefs. This is an unfathomable and unforgivable crime but one guy is not representative of an entire group no matter how convenient it is to pretend otherwise.

Yeah, I tend to agree. I never like painting with a broad brush like that. The actions of the few doesn't always represent the whole. Although, this man obviously should have never have been able to buy a gun.
 
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