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A gay Muslim perspective of Orlando massacre

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beast786

Member
Great piece, gives inside to the world that even I learned a lot. Please read the whole thing. I intentionally didn't copy the title as it would deviate into quick drive by post. The author name is Parwaz

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...gion-of-peace.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

“What’s his name?” I asked my husband as he woke me to tell me of the carnage in Orlando. “It’s going to be a Muslim name.”
I just knew it. I had never been one to racially profile my own community. But this time my premonition was right.
A few years ago, in Islamic year 1432, I was in Mecca on the hajj pilgrimage. I shared a meal with an older Yemeni at Al Baiq, the Saudi version of KFC. We discussed the monstrous Kingdom Tower looming over the Kaaba, the beating heart of my faith, where millions of Muslims converge every year to perform the rituals that make up Islam’s highest calling. The bin Laden family was responsible for its construction, along with the destruction of countless historic sites and artifacts of Islamic history to pave the way for resort hotels and other conveniences reserved for the 1 percent.

“It’s like King Abdullah’s erection,” I told the man.
“But Sheikh Osama destroyed America’s largest penises, didn’t he?” the man replied with a chuckle. His casual joking about the slaughter of thousands chilled me.
And “Sheikh Osama”? I could not return his laughter. This man seemed to be able to tolerate my Americanness, but if he’d had any idea that I was gay, he would have yanked his arm from my shoulder and walked away without a word.

The carnage in Orlando has shaken my very core, but after my experiences traveling throughout the Middle East as a gay man (open in some countries, fully closeted in others), I cannot say I am surprised. Any identity I have ever claimed now lies exposed as a wound that will never heal. Saying “gay Muslim” seems like a reason for damnation.
I’ve spent the last decade of my life making two films. The first, A Jihad For Love, is about the lives of gay Muslims throughout the world. The second, A Sinner In Mecca, dealt with my own personal journey and my effort to reconcile my faith and my sexuality in Islam’s holiest places, surrounded by people who would sooner see me publicly beaten, thrown off a cliff or beheaded.
These are strange times. It is a season of Islamophobia in America, where Donald Trump whips up xenophobia with a tweet. What he doesn’t realize is that he’s attacking a religion that’s already at war with itself. Muslims like me have fought hard not to become casualties. We have always had our Omar Mateens. In the U.S., they manifest as lone crazed gunmen. But in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, they are on the royal payroll.

A cursory look at the pages of ISIS’s glossy magazine, Dabiq, reveals the group’s ideology. They gloat—and show high-res photos—about throwing homosexuals off the tallest buildings that somehow remain standing in the wastelands they’ve created.
The latest American news reports suggest Omar Mateen himself was a closeted gay Muslim who harbored an immense self-loathing. A few nights ago, he murderously redirected this loathing toward dozens of young brown gay men who were enjoying their first tastes of a profound freedom and acceptance that he probably felt he could never truly enjoy with the same carefree abandon.


The same defensive, apologist Muslims are called upon every time something like this happens. I, too, have been called several times, but have so far refused the TV parts because I am not sure what I have to say is palatable. Mateen, the homophobic gay Muslim, is not a new phenomenon. The Muslim religious elite is directly responsible for inspiring the guilt and self-hatred that this man must have felt, needlessly struggling with his sexuality. And then he became a mass murderer, whose actions can never be condoned.

What I do know is this. As a devout gay Muslim I am not going to make a claim that “Islam is a religion of peace.”

Growing up in a small Indian town with a large Muslim population, I heard young men talking about jihad in Kashmir and Palestine. I have even heard such matters discussed in hushed whispers at Manhattan’s 96th St. mosque, where I sometimes go and pray on Fridays and where subjugation of women is discussed in the open without the blink of an eye. The mosque was built largely with Saudi money, and its Imams often come equipped with the perversions of Wahhabi ideology.

A few weeks after September 11th, its Imam at the time, Sheik Muhammad Gemeaha resigned and left hastily for his native Egypt. He was quoted in The New York Times as having said amongst much else including the familiar deriding of “homosexuality” “‘only the Jews’ were capable of destroying the World Trade Center” and added that ‘'if it became known to the American people, they would have done to Jews what Hitler did.”
Calling Islam a religion of peace is dangerous and reductive. Like the other two monotheisms that precede it, it has blood on its hands. It’s time we Muslims start looking inward at our own communities so that the bloodshed can stop. I’m convinced that Mateen’s attitude is not fringe. It can be found everywhere from Mecca to my own mosque in New York City.

The vast canon of Islam that emerged after the Prophet Muhammad’s life has enough sanction for violence, if you know what you are looking for. And there is no lack of homophobic condemnation either. The Quran itself remains vague on the matter, lazily regurgitating the Old and New Testament’s story of the Nation of Lot. And for the majority of 1.6 billion Muslims, many of them plagued by poverty and illiteracy, the debates going on amongst the Western Muslim pundits, will make no sense. What they listen to is Khutba (Friday sermon) after Khutba that talks about homosexuality as a sin amongst other matters of religious import.
Yes, most Muslims are muddling through life, putting food on their families’ tables just like everyone else. There are countless sectarian divisions within the vast faith. But if even a fraction of a percentage of this population believes gays should be put to death, we have a problem that cannot be dismissed so easily.
I, too, fear backlash from a fearful conservative America. I finally won an American passport last year and am officially an American citizen. Will I be singled out at the airport with increasing frequency? Will Muslims like me, desperate to get into the United States, be able to taste freedom here?
I went to my first gay bar almost 20 years ago in New York City. I had just landed in the United States. My cousin who hosted me on my visit swears that I kissed the ground (though I suspect he’s embellishing). I lost myself in the music, the dance, and most importantly the love. There are millions of other gay Muslims in the world, desperate to experience such love.
In 2010, I stood outside a nightclub called Acid, perched on a Beirut cliff. It was Ramadan, and Acid was one of the precious few openly gay nightclubs in all of the Arab Middle East. I shared a cigarette with a friend called Babak as a car with Saudi tags rolled up.
“That’s a rich Saudi prince!” Babak said. He often comes here to cruise! You have no idea how many rich Saudi fuckers come here. We Beirutis must screw well! The Saudis? They walk around like they are so butch but once naked they are all bottoms.”
Babak was the twentysomething founder of Bear Arabia who organized “Bear” tours of Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan for western gay men keen to sample the delights of the region. Bears, for those unfamiliar with Western homosexuality, are the gay men who do not confirm to “body fascist” stereotypes and flaunt the hair on their bodies and the ample meat on their bones. Or as my husband Keith liked to say, “They are just gay men who have given up.”
I was in Beirut to do open screenings of my first film for the first time in an Arab capital. It felt like a special moment. Babak, who I would call an activist like any other, was furious at the time because a New York Times article had come out labeling the city the Provincetown of the Middle East. To me it seemed absurd. From our vantage point we were looking at the expanse of Dahiyeh, Beirut’s southern suburb. That was Hezbollah land, bombed to smithereens in 2006. This remained a deeply divided city.
On that journey, I hooked up with a handsome man who later confided in me that he was a member of Hezbollah’s social media division. We’d met on Manjam, a gay hookup website. He was married, with three kids. When we were finished, he performed the elaborate, obligatory post-sex cleansing ritual called the ghusl at almost 4:30 in the morning.
For a brief moment I wondered how the world might be different if these closeted Muslims, from Saudi princes to Hezbollah warriors, could experience the love that I now feel in the arms of my husband Keith. The best chance they have is coming to America, and I’m now afraid that door is closing shut.

---------------------------
Another great summary of issues this time from ExMuslim point of view regarding the Orlando massacre highly recommend reading it

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...onnection-between-islam-and-anti-gay-bigotry/
 

KmA

Member
I'm really happy that Queer Muslims are starting to get some visibility. We live on a very fine line of acceptance and condemnation from both of our identities.

It was absolutely infuriating seeing how Muslim Scholars and celebrity Facebook Sheikhs responded to the tragedy. All they did was distance themselves from the event and were like "See?? Hes a F*G himself so it has nothing to do with US!!!"... ok sis as if muslim communities aren't wildly homophobic? As if Sheikhs constantly condemn us to hell for existing? As if you can just wipe your hands clean of it all because he (might be) gay. Take some fucking responsibility. You created Omar Mateen as much as gun culture and the American brand of misogyny/homophobia did as well.

And all these Sheikhs... after hearing that 50 people lost their lives for being gay... they STILL want to tell us their uninformed ridiculous positions on the "homosexual lifestyle." Fuck all of you. But anyway...
 

IISANDERII

Member
For a brief moment I wondered how the world might be different if these closeted Muslims, from Saudi princes to Hezbollah warriors, could experience the love that I now feel in the arms of my husband Keith. The best chance they have is coming to America, and I’m now afraid that door is closing shut.
He's got some skewed perspectives of his own to clear up
 

beast786

Member
I'm really happy that Queer Muslims are starting to get some visibility. We live on a very fine line of acceptance and condemnation from both of our identities.

It was absolutely infuriating seeing how Muslim Scholars and celebrity Facebook Sheikhs responded to the tragedy. All they did was distance themselves from the event and were like "See?? Hes a F*G himself so it has nothing to do with US!!!"... ok sis as if muslim communities aren't wildly homophobic? As if Sheikhs constantly condemn us to hell for existing? As if you can just wipe your hands clean of it all because he (might be) gay. Take some fucking responsibility. You created Omar Mateen as much as gun culture and the American brand of misogyny/homophobia did as well.

And all these Sheikhs... after hearing that 50 people lost their lives for being gay... they STILL want to tell us their uninformed ridiculous positions on the "homosexual lifestyle." Fuck all of you. But anyway...


They really have absolute zero support system . From God , parents to community.

Sheikh hamza yousif who is seen as a moderate Islamic scholar had this to say.

Q: Why can’t Muslim teachings on homosexuality change? Is it because the Quran, which is considered the inerrant word of God, condemns it?

A: The Quran is pretty explicit in its condemnation of the act, and we have a long tradition of jurisprudence that defines it as unlawful. But there were also fatwas permitting people who had those attractions to relieve themselves so they wouldn’t fall into active engagement. There’s an awareness that this is a real human urge. I definitely have sympathy for people who are struggling. I’ve met with young Muslims who have told me about their struggles. But I’m not sure they want our sympathies; they want full recognition of their lifestyle, and my religion tells me that I can’t accept that. But I can’t — and won’t — impose my beliefs on others, either verbally or otherwise. I’m not going to judge people.P

Q: What do you say when gay Muslims tell you about their struggles?

A: I say that I’m not going to deny your experience but my recommendation is not to actively engage in behavior outside of what is permitted in the religion. I know that people can live celibate lives, I did it myself for many years.


There is literally no hope for support in mainstream
 
"You have no idea how many rich Saudi fuckers come here. We Beirutis must screw well! The Saudis? They walk around like they are so butch but once naked they are all bottoms."

This line is hilarious.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
He's got some skewed perspectives of his own to clear up
Seriously. Hasn't he heard of a place called Canada? :p

Interesting piece anyway. Glad to see him reflect inwards about his religion and refusal to call it a religion of peace. I'm tempted to assume he'll eventually shed his faith entirely as it is superfluous and contradictory.
 
Watch his documentary, it's really good.

As a queer male from a Muslim background this hits a little close to home...really good read though.
 

jb1234

Member
Q: What do you say when gay Muslims tell you about their struggles?

A: I say that I’m not going to deny your experience but my recommendation is not to actively engage in behavior outside of what is permitted in the religion. I know that people can live celibate lives, I did it myself for many years.


There is literally no hope for support in mainstream

Yeah, that's not gonna fly. I got the exact same speech during my brief and ill-advised Mormon phase. "You can be gay! Just don't BE gay! Oh, and you'll be alone and sexless for the rest of your life!"
 

beast786

Member
Seriously. Hasn't he heard of a place called Canada? :p

Interesting piece anyway. Glad to see him reflect inwards about his religion and refusal to call it a religion of peace. I'm tempted to assume he'll eventually shed his faith entirely as it is superfluous and contradictory.

His perspective is actually pretty clear

This might be a shock to you but American Muslim attitute is probably the most acceptable toward LBGT than any other country including Canada. Not saying much as the number is close to conservative Christian group

"And while a 2013 Pew Research poll found that 80 per cent of Canadians agreed that homosexuality should be accepted by society, only 36 per cent of Muslims agreed with that statement."


http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/grenier-muslim-canadians-environics-1.3551591
 

beast786

Member
Yeah, that's not gonna fly. I got the exact same speech during my brief and ill-advised Mormon phase. "You can be gay! Just don't BE gay! Oh, and you'll be alone and sexless for the rest of your life!"

What is fail to realize is that it's not just sex. It's being absent of loving and being in relationship. Which really bothers the crap out of me. As if it's just sinful lust
 

BamfMeat

Member
They really have absolute zero support system . From God , parents to community.

Sheikh hamza yousif who is seen as a moderate Islamic scholar had this to say.

Q: Why can’t Muslim teachings on homosexuality change? Is it because the Quran, which is considered the inerrant word of God, condemns it?

A: The Quran is pretty explicit in its condemnation of the act, and we have a long tradition of jurisprudence that defines it as unlawful. But there were also fatwas permitting people who had those attractions to relieve themselves so they wouldn’t fall into active engagement. There’s an awareness that this is a real human urge. I definitely have sympathy for people who are struggling. I’ve met with young Muslims who have told me about their struggles. But I’m not sure they want our sympathies; they want full recognition of their lifestyle, and my religion tells me that I can’t accept that. But I can’t — and won’t — impose my beliefs on others, either verbally or otherwise. I’m not going to judge people.P

Q: What do you say when gay Muslims tell you about their struggles?

A: I say that I’m not going to deny your experience but my recommendation is not to actively engage in behavior outside of what is permitted in the religion. I know that people can live celibate lives, I did it myself for many years.


There is literally no hope for support in mainstream

Why would you want to continue in a religion that actively denigrates your entire existence? Just the fact that a religion stands around telling me I'm bad is enough for me to shun it. I mean that towards all religions, not just Islam.

A book is not going to tell me who I am and who I am not. A religion is not going to dictate to me who I am and who I am not. I am a living, breathing human who will fight tooth and nail to make sure I'm recognized. I literally have the ability to stand up and say who I am - I refuse to allow a 3,000 year old book to dictate how I live my life. How someone can continue to believe in a book and/or faith that tells them they're evil is beyond me. I will never understand it.

What is fail to realize is that it's not just sex. It's being absent of loving and being in relationship. Which really bothers the crap out of me. As if it's just sinful lust

Part of the love you speak of includes sex.
 

beast786

Member
Why would you want to continue in a religion that actively denigrates your entire existence? Just the fact that a religion stands around telling me I'm bad is enough for me to shun it. I mean that towards all religions, not just Islam.

A book is not going to tell me who I am and who I am not. A religion is not going to dictate to me who I am and who I am not. I am a living, breathing human who will fight tooth and nail to make sure I'm recognized. I literally have the ability to stand up and say who I am - I refuse to allow a 3,000 year old book to dictate how I live my life. How someone can continue to believe in a book and/or faith that tells them they're evil is beyond me. I will never understand it.



Part of the love you speak of includes sex.

Because many Muslim see Islam in there image and spirituality. I can totally see that point of view. That is why it's bigotry to brand all Muslim under same brush.

And obviously it includes sex. But it's part of it for lbgt community
 

lenovox1

Member
Why would you want to continue in a religion that actively denigrates your entire existence? Just the fact that a religion stands around telling me I'm bad is enough for me to shun it. I mean that towards all religions, not just Islam.

A book is not going to tell me who I am and who I am not. A religion is not going to dictate to me who I am and who I am not. I am a living, breathing human who will fight tooth and nail to make sure I'm recognized. I literally have the ability to stand up and say who I am - I refuse to allow a 3,000 year old book to dictate how I live my life. How someone can continue to believe in a book and/or faith that tells them they're evil is beyond me. I will never understand it.

Because they were steeped in it. That's the short of it all.

There is nothing you can do as a child when you're barely aware of what love means when a person you've been raised to respect repeatedly tells you, indirectly or not, that you are wrong, you are broken, and that you shouldn't be allowed to exist.

That kind of stuff messes with your entire mental development.
 

beast786

Member
Because they were steeped in it. That's the short of it all.

There is nothing you can do as a child when you're barely aware of what love means when a person you've been raised to respect repeatedly tells you, indirectly or not, that you are wrong, you are broken, and that you shouldn't be allowed to exist.

That kind of stuff messes with your entire mental development.

Great point. You are indoctrinated fear and hate from day 1. I can't even imagine what tough life it be for lbgt Muslims . Where you think and called by everyone as God abomination . Yet, your basic natural desire are always fighting it
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Damn that was a good read! Heartbreaking in a lot of ways but not a perspective you hear from much.
 

BamfMeat

Member
Because many Muslim see Islam in there image and spirituality. I can totally see that point of view. That is why it's bigotry to brand all Muslim under same brush.

And obviously it includes sex. But it's part of it for lbgt community

I agree with you completely on the broad brush - Notice I never say the individuals who have the faith are bad. As much as we love to make fun of Facebook around here, I actually posted this right after the shooting :

For people who want to rag on the "muslim" who shot a bunch of people in a night club, keep this in mind: that "muslim" was an American citizen. Born on American soil and had only American citizenship. Stop attacking the religion, start attacking the extremists within the religion.

When we hear a crazed Christian shoot an abortion doctor, we don't attack all of Christianity, we attack the crazy person. Exact same thing here. Fundamentally, I disagree with religions, however I would never paint a broad brush of anyone. People paint me with a broad brush all the time. It feels shitty, and most of the time they're wrong. Why would or should I do it to someone else? Don't do that. Don't be like those ignorant people. Judge individuals as individuals.

I tend to have a lot of right wing people on my Facebook, and I tend to want to tell them to stuff it most of the time, which is why I posted that.

From an individualistic perspective, however, I can't understand why someone would stay within a religion that actively tells them to shun a part of themselves after a certain age.

Because they were steeped in it. That's the short of it all.

There is nothing you can do as a child when you're barely aware of what love means when a person you've been raised to respect repeatedly tells you, indirectly or not, that you are wrong, you are broken, and that you shouldn't be allowed to exist.

That kind of stuff messes with your entire mental development.

I was raised in a hellfire-and-brimstone, Southern Baptist, no drinking, no dancing, no playing cards because you might be gambling (even if it's Go Fish) and DEFINITELY no gay homosexuals church. I agree that it can fuck with your development. But after a certain age, I refused to let them dictate to me who was and wasn't bad. It took a while - it took a lot of finding various "books" and "pamphlets" my great-grandma had lying around telling me that gay people (and others) were bad and going to hell.

But even in my early teens I was questioning how and why this was right. How could this be right? How could God have made me X when all these people were telling me X was bad? Maybe I just got lucky and was able to keep up my own shields and defenses until my grandmother (daughter of great-grandmother) stepped in and said "enough" before it took too much of a toll on me. But I would hope that I would be strong enough to stand up and recognize how harmful it was to me before too long. Maybe I'm asking/thinking too highly of peoples' abilities to reconcile what's inside themselves with outside influences and let their individuality win.

I would think in this day and age, with the internet (something that wasn't around back then for me), more people would be standing up and proclaiming their individuality and rejecting that which hurts them. My heart goes out to all those that can't reconcile it. That road is hell and no one should ever have to walk it.
 

beast786

Member
I agree with you completely on the broad brush - Notice I never say the individuals who have the faith are bad. As much as we love to make fun of Facebook around here, I actually posted this right after the shooting :



I tend to have a lot of right wing people on my Facebook, and I tend to want to tell them to stuff it most of the time, which is why I posted that.

From an individualistic perspective, however, I can't understand why someone would stay within a religion that actively tells them to shun a part of themselves after a certain age.



I was raised in a hellfire-and-brimstone, Southern Baptist, no drinking, no dancing, no playing cards because you might be gambling (even if it's Go Fish) and DEFINITELY no gay homosexuals church. I agree that it can fuck with your development. But after a certain age, I refused to let them dictate to me who was and wasn't bad. It took a while - it took a lot of finding various "books" and "pamphlets" my great-grandma had lying around telling me that gay people (and others) were bad and going to hell.

But even in my early teens I was questioning how and why this was right. How could this be right? How could God have made me X when all these people were telling me X was bad? Maybe I just got lucky and was able to keep up my own shields and defenses until my grandmother (daughter of great-grandmother) stepped in and said "enough" before it took too much of a toll on me. But I would hope that I would be strong enough to stand up and recognize how harmful it was to me before too long. Maybe I'm asking/thinking too highly of peoples' abilities to reconcile what's inside themselves with outside influences and let their individuality win.

I would think in this day and age, with the internet (something that wasn't around back then for me), more people would be standing up and proclaiming their individuality and rejecting that which hurts them. My heart goes out to all those that can't reconcile it. That road is hell and no one should ever have to walk it.


Thanks for sharing your life experience . But it's extremely hard to make comparison as there are so many variables that effect person life and how traumatic it would be psychologically to that individual

I would say it's ok to criticize religion. And not all religion are alike . Muslim give credit to there scripture as they fast, pray ,give charity . Unfortunately , it also has it bad as with its homophobic scripture. Problem is there is no forseen change and people are going to suffer
 

HMD

Member
The Saudis? They walk around like they are so butch but once naked they are all bottoms.

That was an okay read until I got to this part. As a Saudi I just found this part eerily homophobic coming from a supposed homosexual. Or just because we are supposedly "rich" that strips us from the same human rights you claim you'd want everyone to have?
 

Replicant

Member
What I do know is this. As a devout gay Muslim I am not going to make a claim that “Islam is a religion of peace.”

As someone who used to live in a largely moderate muslim country, I think more people need to realise this. This religion is especially problematic in a country where free thinking and freedom to choose are not encouraged. Where adherence to what the elderly preaches is something that's been taught on since you are young. People in western countries seem afraid to say it for fear of being labeled intolerant but it needs to be said: this religion needs a reform and it needs to happen soon. Any religion that encourages its followers to use violence as a way to show how loyal they are to the religion has no place in modern society.

I had the same upbringing, albeit in different religion. But even at a younger age, I started to question some of the teachings that my religion and my elders taught me. I thought they were vile, cruel, and lack of compassion. I couldn't stand it when I had to visit a relative (uncle or aunt) who were obviously religion obsessed because they'd spout random passages from their holy book like it's some kind of life lesson. And I was only 12 to 15 year old. By the time I was 17, I could no longer pretend that I was okay with what the religion taught me so I started to distance myself.

What I'm saying is, in each individual, there's freewill and critical thinking. Listen to it a lot more than your elders and religious teachings. When your religion tells you that those who are not part of your religion deserve a place in Hell or damnation or deserves to be kill then how does your critical thinking not work or even more an inch?! Where is your own humanity? Your own moral compass? You compassion for other human beings? You know damn well that there's no way that every person born in this world could possibly born in that religion that you worship. So there's no way for them to even had a chance to know about it.
 
“‘only the Jews’ were capable of destroying the World Trade Center” and added that ‘'if it became known to the American people, they would have done to Jews what Hitler did.”-Sheik Muhammad Gemeaha

dVJNUJlVS6yeyEYhtJIL_Confused%20Mark%20Wahlberg.gif


I'm fucking floored right now, this is an amazing read but fuck... it is so goddamn depressing and disgusting, confusing, enraging.

I can keep going with descriptive language, but my God.

The logic leap that might even be necessary for that, is just really hard for me to grasp. I mean really? You think we would kill 13 million innocent people, for 3,000 american lives?

I don't fucking think so.

This is such a scary time to live in for the whole world. I just hope at some point things can be set aside reasonably but that probably will never happen.
 
That was an okay read until I got to this part. As a Saudi I just found this part eerily homophobic coming from a supposed homosexual. Or just because we are supposedly "rich" that strips us from the same human rights you claim you'd want everyone to have?

It's pretty typical conversation among gays. Mocking a perceived lack of masculinity, especially from more muscular/wealthy/hairy/powerful guys, is pretty normal in-group shaming.

Giggling about a powerful guy being sexually submissive isn't limited to gay relationships, either. There are still a lot of sexually regressive norms that are prevalent within gay culture, perhaps especially so in broadly sexually regressive cultures.
 

HMD

Member
It's pretty typical conversation among gays. Mocking a perceived lack of masculinity, especially from more muscular/wealthy/hairy/powerful guys, is pretty normal in-group shaming.

Giggling about a powerful guy being sexually submissive isn't limited to gay relationships, either. There are still a lot of sexually regressive norms that are prevalent within gay culture, perhaps especially so in broadly sexually regressive cultures.

I agree with the gist of his sentiment. But the wording and the implication just left a sour taste in my mouth. There has been a recent trend to dehumanise "Saudi fuckers" under the banner of social justice that I found hypocritical. It's especially hurtful to our cause, as Saudis with awareness to social justice issues when we're shunned and dehumanised like that.
 
Fascinating read! As an ex Muslim who is also gay, he described the issue with homosexuality in Islam world quite accurately. It's quite sad how many gay men in those parts of the world are so marginalised to the point of no existence.

There is an issue with tolerance and Islam that must be recognised by all muslims. That applies to many minorities including LGBT+.

I left my home country to live a normal life in the United States, but I know that many people are not as lucky as me in this regard. I am very grateful to be where I am currently living and I hope that one day they get to experience what's it like to be accepted as who they are.
 

beast786

Member
Here a letter from Reddit :

Thought it would bring some really interesting insight. Sent to me a few months ago.

Salams brother,

I'm emailing you anonymously since we know each other. I've read your posts recently about homosexuality on facebook, especially your comments on that animal article you recently posted. I juts wanted to say thank you. Thank you for understanding. I'm a married guy and I have had this problem since as long as i can remember. I was lucky enough to be able to get married. But every day I live like I'm living a life of lies. I have chosen to not let this be something that identifies who I am. I'm a muslim first and everything else after so my responsibilities lie in fulfilling my covenant with Allah to the best of my abilities. However, I believe that the act of homosexuality is not right so I struggle against it to the best of my abilities. I try to fulfill my duties as a husband to the best of my abilities. but it's not easy. The amount of turmoil that goes on inside can only be described by the fact that I have to actively struggle to keep from being envious of my straight married friends. Even the mosque can become a place of fitna instead of refuge. Imagine praying next to uncovered girls as a straight guy. How many straight guys would be able to keep their salah? Anyway, it's not easy and I want to thank you for understanding that. May Allah bless you and your family and keep you under his protection in this life and the next.

I'm married to a woman and I'm gay. My emaan is not strong...I wish it was.

But my belief in Islam is stronger because of it. It gives me hope that if not in this life, at least in the after life, I'll be purified of this. And despite what people say about it, God is not unjust. He will judge those of us struggling with this with Mercy insha Allah. Just as Allah will judge a sin based on how pervasive it is, I pray He will judge our vices based on our conditions. This is what I believe. I will struggle against committing the act since it is something Allah has said is haraam. I don't know the reasoning behind it. But I trust in Him. He has given me so much more than what many have in this life.

I did have to learn to shut people's opinions off a long time ago and look for answers myself. In fact when I saw your post about the pic of the guy being thrown off and your comments regarding that, I was close to messaging you in private and asking you not to talk about things you don't have knowledge or a sense of understanding of. So many people just like to mouth off about this topic as if they are experts in it. They know nothing about it or what it's like to live with it. Some people get in shock or refuse to believe that for most gay guys being with a woman feels the same as what a straight man would feel being with another man. But since physical sex is a baser function of human beings, it eventually works. That's also why some straight guys can have same sex experiences.

In my limited research, I found that Islam is a religion of mercy regardless of who you are as long as you do your best to adhere to its tenants. We don't always know what is good for us and what isn't. Islam has given us that guideline; an ethical and moral compass to help navigate our lives. As long as we don't lose that, we can always find our way back to Allah, if He Wills, no matter how lost we get along the way.

Anyway i think I've said way more than you asked for.


https://m.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/com...muslim/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
 

Shmuppers

Member
Here a letter from Reddit :

Thought it would bring some really interesting insight. Sent to me a few months ago.

Salams brother,

I'm emailing you anonymously since we know each other. I've read your posts recently about homosexuality on facebook, especially your comments on that animal article you recently posted. I juts wanted to say thank you. Thank you for understanding. I'm a married guy and I have had this problem since as long as i can remember. I was lucky enough to be able to get married. But every day I live like I'm living a life of lies. I have chosen to not let this be something that identifies who I am. I'm a muslim first and everything else after so my responsibilities lie in fulfilling my covenant with Allah to the best of my abilities. However, I believe that the act of homosexuality is not right so I struggle against it to the best of my abilities. I try to fulfill my duties as a husband to the best of my abilities. but it's not easy. The amount of turmoil that goes on inside can only be described by the fact that I have to actively struggle to keep from being envious of my straight married friends. Even the mosque can become a place of fitna instead of refuge. Imagine praying next to uncovered girls as a straight guy. How many straight guys would be able to keep their salah? Anyway, it's not easy and I want to thank you for understanding that. May Allah bless you and your family and keep you under his protection in this life and the next.

I'm married to a woman and I'm gay. My emaan is not strong...I wish it was.

But my belief in Islam is stronger because of it. It gives me hope that if not in this life, at least in the after life, I'll be purified of this. And despite what people say about it, God is not unjust. He will judge those of us struggling with this with Mercy insha Allah. Just as Allah will judge a sin based on how pervasive it is, I pray He will judge our vices based on our conditions. This is what I believe. I will struggle against committing the act since it is something Allah has said is haraam. I don't know the reasoning behind it. But I trust in Him. He has given me so much more than what many have in this life.

I did have to learn to shut people's opinions off a long time ago and look for answers myself. In fact when I saw your post about the pic of the guy being thrown off and your comments regarding that, I was close to messaging you in private and asking you not to talk about things you don't have knowledge or a sense of understanding of. So many people just like to mouth off about this topic as if they are experts in it. They know nothing about it or what it's like to live with it. Some people get in shock or refuse to believe that for most gay guys being with a woman feels the same as what a straight man would feel being with another man. But since physical sex is a baser function of human beings, it eventually works. That's also why some straight guys can have same sex experiences.

In my limited research, I found that Islam is a religion of mercy regardless of who you are as long as you do your best to adhere to its tenants. We don't always know what is good for us and what isn't. Islam has given us that guideline; an ethical and moral compass to help navigate our lives. As long as we don't lose that, we can always find our way back to Allah, if He Wills, no matter how lost we get along the way.

Anyway i think I've said way more than you asked for.


https://m.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/com...muslim/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
This is really incredible, thanks for posting it
 

Madouu

Member
I can only speak on the personal level and this might seem untrue to some but the fact is I have experienced it firsthand. More & more people in my country (Morocco), peole of my generation, are far more tolerant than their parents were when it comes to the LGBT community. I know tolerance is not the word people want to hear, I dream just as much as everyone else of a world where gay people would be treated the exact same as anyone else but it is still progress. I just wanted to make a note of this. Progress is slow and takes time, I am happy and grateful that gay muslims are coming out and speaking up, as this is exactly what is needed. I am sure that with time, thanks to real efforts like this and just like it has happened in the past in western countries, a change in the overall public opinion will happen.

I believe that the key to achieving this goal is through high quality education in our countries. Right now, progressist ideas only reach a small number - growing number but still small - of people. The idea of conciliating personal faith with ideas that seem contrary to centuries old dogmas might seem impossible to some but I believe that it is not, I believe that there is a kind of Islam that can be practiced and that loves gay people and treats them in the same fair & just manner as anyone else, that accepts everyone and lets them love anyone they want. And it is up to us muslims who believe in this to show the way.

It's a long and difficult path, and even though some of the recent events might make one very pessimistic, but I strongly believe that we will eventually get there, it might be through most shedding their faith, or through slow ideological progress from one generation to the other, I don't know how it will happen, but I have seen the beginning signs of it and I know it will.

A message with a bit of optimism in it I guess, I know it does not fix the many issues in the present but it takes time for mentalities to change sadly. It breaks my heart to read about some of the persecution some people have had to deal with, the constant living in hiding, or the inner turmoil like in the quoted message above. This shouldn't happen, this is not what Islam should be about... and yet it is in this current state right now and that is why we are fighting to change it.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Here a letter from Reddit :

Thought it would bring some really interesting insight. Sent to me a few months ago.

Salams brother,

I'm emailing you anonymously since we know each other. I've read your posts recently about homosexuality on facebook, especially your comments on that animal article you recently posted. I juts wanted to say thank you. Thank you for understanding. I'm a married guy and I have had this problem since as long as i can remember. I was lucky enough to be able to get married. But every day I live like I'm living a life of lies. I have chosen to not let this be something that identifies who I am. I'm a muslim first and everything else after so my responsibilities lie in fulfilling my covenant with Allah to the best of my abilities. However, I believe that the act of homosexuality is not right so I struggle against it to the best of my abilities. I try to fulfill my duties as a husband to the best of my abilities. but it's not easy. The amount of turmoil that goes on inside can only be described by the fact that I have to actively struggle to keep from being envious of my straight married friends. Even the mosque can become a place of fitna instead of refuge. Imagine praying next to uncovered girls as a straight guy. How many straight guys would be able to keep their salah? Anyway, it's not easy and I want to thank you for understanding that. May Allah bless you and your family and keep you under his protection in this life and the next.

I'm married to a woman and I'm gay. My emaan is not strong...I wish it was.

But my belief in Islam is stronger because of it. It gives me hope that if not in this life, at least in the after life, I'll be purified of this. And despite what people say about it, God is not unjust. He will judge those of us struggling with this with Mercy insha Allah. Just as Allah will judge a sin based on how pervasive it is, I pray He will judge our vices based on our conditions. This is what I believe. I will struggle against committing the act since it is something Allah has said is haraam. I don't know the reasoning behind it. But I trust in Him. He has given me so much more than what many have in this life.

I did have to learn to shut people's opinions off a long time ago and look for answers myself. In fact when I saw your post about the pic of the guy being thrown off and your comments regarding that, I was close to messaging you in private and asking you not to talk about things you don't have knowledge or a sense of understanding of. So many people just like to mouth off about this topic as if they are experts in it. They know nothing about it or what it's like to live with it. Some people get in shock or refuse to believe that for most gay guys being with a woman feels the same as what a straight man would feel being with another man. But since physical sex is a baser function of human beings, it eventually works. That's also why some straight guys can have same sex experiences.

In my limited research, I found that Islam is a religion of mercy regardless of who you are as long as you do your best to adhere to its tenants. We don't always know what is good for us and what isn't. Islam has given us that guideline; an ethical and moral compass to help navigate our lives. As long as we don't lose that, we can always find our way back to Allah, if He Wills, no matter how lost we get along the way.

Anyway i think I've said way more than you asked for.


https://m.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/com...muslim/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true
So much self-loathing. I feel sorry for this man. He is living in pain and misery and denying himself happiness because he's utterly brainwashed into following arbitrary ancient texts. It's really sad.
 

Future

Member
As someone who used to live in a largely moderate muslim country, I think more people need to realise this. This religion is especially problematic in a country where free thinking and freedom to choose are not encouraged. Where adherence to what the elderly preaches is something that's been taught on since you are young. People in western countries seem afraid to say it for fear of being labeled intolerant but it needs to be said: this religion needs a reform and it needs to happen soon. Any religion that encourages its followers to use violence as a way to show how loyal they are to the religion has no place in modern society.

I had the same upbringing, albeit in different religion. But even at a younger age, I started to question some of the teachings that my religion and my elders taught me. I thought they were vile, cruel, and lack of compassion. I couldn't stand it when I had to visit a relative (uncle or aunt) who were obviously religion obsessed because they'd spout random passages from their holy book like it's some kind of life lesson. And I was only 12 to 15 year old. By the time I was 17, I could no longer pretend that I was okay with what the religion taught me so I started to distance myself.

What I'm saying is, in each individual, there's freewill and critical thinking. Listen to it a lot more than your elders and religious teachings. When your religion tells you that those who are not part of your religion deserve a place in Hell or damnation or deserves to be kill then how does your critical thinking not work or even more an inch?! Where is your own humanity? Your own moral compass? You compassion for other human beings? You know damn well that there's no way that every person born in this world could possibly born in that religion that you worship. So there's no way for them to even had a chance to know about it.

While I will never try to paint every Muslim either same brush, I do feel the "religion of peace" angle many try to have needs some serious thought and discussion. I feel sometimes it's flat out denial and general aggressive (often liberal) desire to paint the religion as something purely positive that only gets abused. Even though many Muslims often mention how prevelant the call to violence actually can be within the community and places of worship
 

Aiii

So not worth it
I am really amazed (maybe stunned would be a more appropriate description) sometimes that out gay people can remain religious, when most of the major religions pretty much condemn (some violently so) their very being in their religious works. Sure, you can reason a mile and then some around the writings, but in Islam specifically, where the book is the literal (verbally transcribed) word of God... How do you keep that faith? Why would you want to?

I mean, I get that people that fit the very specific "right" way of living will try and reason the less desirable parts of their teachings away. A lot have simply never read their religious book from cover to cover, only reading the parts taught by their preacher and as such don't really know the more shady parts of the teachings. Some have and agree with the teachings as they are (as dire as that is, perhaps they are the most honest of all the parties) and some have read the parts and decided that "well, this is just not right and this is not what God actually wants," which is honerable, but dishonest. You cannot simultaneously believe that the word of God is spread through the prophets and the writings, when both preach something you reject. That doesn't mesh very well.

But I don't get why someone who openly "choses" (for lack of a better word, being gay is obviously not a choice) to follow a lifestyle in direct conflict with their teaching would remain legitimately religious. I get keeping up pretences to not cause a rift with your loved ones, perhaps, but to be in such conflict between what you believe and what you are? I really don't understand that.

But hey, I'm not in that position, I haven't been brought up in that environment, neither am I gay... So I guess it's not really surprising that I can't even remotely imagine the position the author finds himself in.

That said, the write-up is very insightful and I'm grateful for it. Thanks for sharing that, OP.
 

Nudull

Banned
Pretty interesting read, even if some if it is questionable. I wouldn't mind hearing more from other Muslims in the LGBT community.

Here a letter from Reddit :

Thought it would bring some really interesting insight. Sent to me a few months ago.

Salams brother,

I'm emailing you anonymously since we know each other. I've read your posts recently about homosexuality on facebook, especially your comments on that animal article you recently posted. I juts wanted to say thank you. Thank you for understanding. I'm a married guy and I have had this problem since as long as i can remember. I was lucky enough to be able to get married. But every day I live like I'm living a life of lies. I have chosen to not let this be something that identifies who I am. I'm a muslim first and everything else after so my responsibilities lie in fulfilling my covenant with Allah to the best of my abilities. However, I believe that the act of homosexuality is not right so I struggle against it to the best of my abilities. I try to fulfill my duties as a husband to the best of my abilities. but it's not easy. The amount of turmoil that goes on inside can only be described by the fact that I have to actively struggle to keep from being envious of my straight married friends. Even the mosque can become a place of fitna instead of refuge. Imagine praying next to uncovered girls as a straight guy. How many straight guys would be able to keep their salah? Anyway, it's not easy and I want to thank you for understanding that. May Allah bless you and your family and keep you under his protection in this life and the next.

I'm married to a woman and I'm gay. My emaan is not strong...I wish it was.

But my belief in Islam is stronger because of it. It gives me hope that if not in this life, at least in the after life, I'll be purified of this. And despite what people say about it, God is not unjust. He will judge those of us struggling with this with Mercy insha Allah. Just as Allah will judge a sin based on how pervasive it is, I pray He will judge our vices based on our conditions. This is what I believe. I will struggle against committing the act since it is something Allah has said is haraam. I don't know the reasoning behind it. But I trust in Him. He has given me so much more than what many have in this life.

I did have to learn to shut people's opinions off a long time ago and look for answers myself. In fact when I saw your post about the pic of the guy being thrown off and your comments regarding that, I was close to messaging you in private and asking you not to talk about things you don't have knowledge or a sense of understanding of. So many people just like to mouth off about this topic as if they are experts in it. They know nothing about it or what it's like to live with it. Some people get in shock or refuse to believe that for most gay guys being with a woman feels the same as what a straight man would feel being with another man. But since physical sex is a baser function of human beings, it eventually works. That's also why some straight guys can have same sex experiences.

In my limited research, I found that Islam is a religion of mercy regardless of who you are as long as you do your best to adhere to its tenants. We don't always know what is good for us and what isn't. Islam has given us that guideline; an ethical and moral compass to help navigate our lives. As long as we don't lose that, we can always find our way back to Allah, if He Wills, no matter how lost we get along the way.

Anyway i think I've said way more than you asked for.


https://m.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/com...muslim/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true

Damn. Self-loathing is the worst. :(
 

Erevador

Member
Extremely important that these conversations are happening openly and in public. This is not a conversation for "Muslims to figure out internally." This impacts everyone, and is a valuable discussion we all need to see and be participants in.

It was secular critique, internal critique, and critique from other religious groups that gradually transformed the massively violent ideology of medieval Christianity into a less volatile force in the world. Islam is going to have undergo those same changes, and it will have to happen much faster.

Due credit to The Daily Beast for putting up this article, and all of Maajid Nawaz's thoughtful pieces. Necessary counterpoint to the obfuscation provided by people like Reza Aslan and Dean Obeidallah (who has unfortunately also been given space in DB).
 

kittoo

Cretinously credulous
What I am noticing these days is that the most sane voices after any tragedy are actually from ex-Muslims (or in this case, gay Muslims). Left-liberals instantly go to 'religion of peace', 'nothing to do with Islam'. Current Muslims go instantly to 'no true Muslim', 'as if killed all humanity etc.'. Right-wing goes to the extreme we all know.
Its the ex-Muslims who clearly say that while of course things can't be blamed on all Muslims, there is a real problem with Islam we need to talk about and instantly jumping to conclusions (right wing) or completely shutting of the conversation on Islam (liberals, Muslims) isn't going to help.
 
You can't technically be a gay muslim since homosexuality is forbidden in islam. If you don't follow islam's rules, you're not muslim, it's very strict. "Ex-muslim" here.
 

orochi91

Member
You can't technically be a gay muslim since homosexuality is forbidden in islam. If you don't follow islam's rules, you're not muslim, it's very strict. "Ex-muslim" here.

?

So long as you declare Shahada, you are a Muslim.

How the individual practices or interprets the faith after that is up to them.
 
?

So long as you declare Shahada, you are a Muslim.

How the individual practices or interprets the faith after that is up to them.
But islam isn't up for your own personal interpretation. The quran is supposed to literally be the word of god and you must follow what it says.
The quran strictly prohibits homosexuality, it couldn't be clearer.
Before you go saying i'm against gay people, i'm not, i'm just saying what it says.
 

orochi91

Member
But islam isn't up for your own personal interpretation. The quran is supposed to literally be the word of god and you must follow what it says.

Nah.

I view it merely as a spiritual guide to life, not an absolute declaration or a "be-all and end-all" proposition. This is evidenced by the existence of secular and liberal Muslims.

Taking such scriptures literally in day-to-day applications is a ridiculous approach and can never work in pluralistic societies, like those in the West.

What I am noticing these days is that the most sane voices after any tragedy are actually from ex-Muslims (or in this case, gay Muslims). Left-liberals instantly go to 'religion of peace', 'nothing to do with Islam'. Current Muslims go instantly to 'no true Muslim', 'as if killed all humanity etc.'. Right-wing goes to the extreme we all know.
Its the ex-Muslims who clearly say that while of course things can't be blamed on all Muslims, there is a real problem with Islam we need to talk about and instantly jumping to conclusions (right wing) or completely shutting of the conversation on Islam (liberals, Muslims) isn't going to help.

Sounds like some extremely selective reading on your part.

Read up on the Liberal Muslim Movement; Irshad Manji and Maajid Nawaz are especially famous for tackling/discussing issues in Muslim communities.
 

Wellscha

Member
I can only speak on the personal level and this might seem untrue to some but the fact is I have experienced it firsthand. More & more people in my country (Morocco), peole of my generation, are far more tolerant than their parents were when it comes to the LGBT community. I know tolerance is not the word people want to hear, I dream just as much as everyone else of a world where gay people would be treated the exact same as anyone else but it is still progress. I just wanted to make a note of this. Progress is slow and takes time, I am happy and grateful that gay muslims are coming out and speaking up, as this is exactly what is needed. I am sure that with time, thanks to real efforts like this and just like it has happened in the past in western countries, a change in the overall public opinion will happen.

I believe that the key to achieving this goal is through high quality education in our countries. Right now, progressist ideas only reach a small number - growing number but still small - of people. The idea of conciliating personal faith with ideas that seem contrary to centuries old dogmas might seem impossible to some but I believe that it is not, I believe that there is a kind of Islam that can be practiced and that loves gay people and treats them in the same fair & just manner as anyone else, that accepts everyone and lets them love anyone they want. And it is up to us muslims who believe in this to show the way.

It's a long and difficult path, and even though some of the recent events might make one very pessimistic, but I strongly believe that we will eventually get there, it might be through most shedding their faith, or through slow ideological progress from one generation to the other, I don't know how it will happen, but I have seen the beginning signs of it and I know it will.

A message with a bit of optimism in it I guess, I know it does not fix the many issues in the present but it takes time for mentalities to change sadly. It breaks my heart to read about some of the persecution some people have had to deal with, the constant living in hiding, or the inner turmoil like in the quoted message above. This shouldn't happen, this is not what Islam should be about... and yet it is in this current state right now and that is why we are fighting to change it.

I've always known that Moroccoo was pretty Liberal (coastal cities) since the 70's.

I view it merely as a spiritual guide to life, not the an absolute declaration or a "be-all and end-all" proposition. This is evidenced by the existence of secular and liberal Muslims.

Taking such scriptures literally in day-to-day applications is a ridiculous approach and can never work in pluralistic societies, like those in the West.

Islam Fiqh and Quran is not up to personal interpretations. The only ones who have the authority to do so are the Prophet and Ulu el-elim.
 

orochi91

Member
Islam Fiqh and Quran is not up to personal interpretations. The only ones who have the authority to do so are the Prophet and Ulu el-elim.

I'm a proponent for Ijtihad (independent reasoning), which allowed for Islamic jurisprudence to be dynamic and relatively progressive during its formative centuries. The fact that ancient scholars called it a day and declared no need to continue fostering independent reasoning regarding religious/social/political matters, in favour of Taqlid (essentially, total and blind adherence), has led to a stagnation in the faith and this is reflected in the difficulties facing the Ummah in this modern era.

Substantial modernization needs to occur once again, hence why I'm a proponent for at least re-interpreting the scriptures (specifically, much of the Hadiths).
 
well yeah, but if something is so outdated and such, why still follow it?

I have a particular view on religion and sin. If I could convince everyone in the world to abandon their religion I would, but I also understand that is not possible.. so the line I draw is they can believe whatever they choose to believe, but don't be persecutors about it.

Whatever you believe is a sin is not an issue to me, so long as you're able to maintain a level of love and respect for your fellow sinners. That's the thing, we're all sinners according to every religion that descended from the prophet Abraham, I don't care if you believe the person next to you is a sinner, provided that you can treat them as your equal.

So I guess what I'm trying to express is to love your fellow beings no matter their faith or their sexuality, and expect nothing more from them in return.

if only
 

KRod-57

Banned
I have a particular view on religion and sin. If I could convince everyone in the world to abandon their religion I would, but I also understand that is not possible.. so the line I draw is they can believe whatever they choose to believe, but don't be persecutors about it.

Whatever you believe is a sin is not an issue to me, so long as you're able to maintain a level of love and respect for your fellow sinners. That's the thing, we're all sinners according to every religion that descended from the prophet Abraham, I don't care if you believe the person next to you is a sinner, provided that you can treat them as your equal.

So I guess what I'm trying to express is to love your fellow beings no matter their faith or their sexuality, and expect nothing more from them in return.
 

orochi91

Member
well yeah, but if something is so outdated and such, why still follow it?
The concepts of the 5 Pillars appeal to me, as does the notion of my existence being a continuous journey from this life to the afterlife. Belonging to a diverse global community is pretty neat as well.

I'd rather strive to improve my faith/religion rather than outright abandoning it; I don't benefit from that, especially on a spiritual level, and neither does that help Muslims like the one being discussed in the OP.

Whatever you believe is a sin is not an issue to me, so long as you're able to maintain a level of love and respect for your fellow sinners. That's the thing, we're all sinners according to every religion that descended from the prophet Abraham, I don't care if you believe the person next to you is a sinner, provided that you can treat them as your equal.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
 

Wellscha

Member
The concepts of the 5 Pillars appeal to me, as does the notion of my existence being a continuous journey from this life to the afterlife. Belonging to a diverse global community is pretty neat as well.

I'd rather strive to improve my faith/religion rather than outright abandoning it; I don't benefit from that, especially on a spiritual level.

Edit: Nevermind.
 
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