For someone with a got avatar, I'm kind of surprised you find that chapter confusing at all...What was hard to understand about it? And you don't care about cersei, jon's fate, jaime, tyrion, winterfell, dany? What else is there to the series?
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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For someone with a got avatar, I'm kind of surprised you find that chapter confusing at all...What was hard to understand about it? And you don't care about cersei, jon's fate, jaime, tyrion, winterfell, dany? What else is there to the series?
Who is Mors Umber? Who is Crowfood? Which of the seemingly many Karstarks is this? Why is he with Stannis? Who is coming after Stannis? The Bastard of Bolton? The Freys? The Manderlys? All of the above? Who is Justin Massey? Who is Aenys Frey?
These were the thoughts going through my head as I read the chapter. I got the general gist of the chapter, but none of it had any impact on me since I barely recognized most of the characters in it.
And I did care about those characters and storylines you listed... about 7 years and 2,000 pages ago. Now I'm finding it harder and harder to care what happens to them.
I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm so invested in the TV series. I've spent way more time thinking about what happens in A Clash of Kings recently than what happened in A Dance with Dragons. *shrug*
Not trying to be rude, but if you read the other books, and you don't know who the umbers and the manderlys are, then you might not really be paying attention to the book at all as you read. The freys and manderlys and the boltons were all main characters in adwd and the other books. The karstarks and why they were with stannis was a huge plot point in the most recent book.
I know who the families are, I just don't recognize the specific characters. I do probably need to re-read Dance soon, as the first time through with these books it is always hard for me to really identify and remember the minor characters. But like I said, with each new book it gets harder and harder to care about the main characters and storylines as they are getting drowned out by tons of minor characters and sideplots.
Yea, you probably just need to get back into it. The story is quite complex and this teaser chapter reminded me of a lot of stuff I had forgotten. Also reminded me how much I fucking love this series.
http://towerofthehand.com/ Excellent resource without resorting to a re-read if you're not inclined to do so. It helped me out immensely.
Tower of the Hand is great, but last I checked they didn't have all the chapter summaries for Dance up yet.
What makes me sad is that as long as this list is it doesn't even cover the Others. 5 books in and I don't know any more about them than I did after reading the first prologue chapter. Shameful really.
Well, that's not entirely true. We do know that they will die from being stabbed by dragonglass. Of course, we learned about that 11 years ago.
grrmtrollface.jpg
That was an exciting Winds of Winter chapter. I've alway liked Stannis but I worry the books are becoming too convoluted. It was bad enough after Clash of Kings. After the last book, I have no one to root for and have no idea where the story is headed.
sazabirules
Unconfirmed Member
I root for Davos and Jaime. That is about it.
I'm going to start a re-read of the entire series today because of that. That chapter made my day yesterday, and I had a lot of good shit happen that day.
PhoenixDark
Banned
The Others seem almost like a nuisance to the story. In some ways it makes the "game of thrones" aspect of the series irrelevant, as whoever "wins" will almost immediately have to deal with a giant supernatural threat no one knows about. To be fair I guess it harkens back to some of the lore of Westeros, such as the king who build Harrenhel: he spent decades and countless lives to raise a monument to his vanity, and the very day it finished was the day Aegon landed with dragons. Just as we've had 5 books of various houses decimating themselves over a throne that may mean nothing once the Others strike and Dany lands in Westeros.
In many ways the houses have set themselves up for failure. While Tywin may have been a strong leader, he ultimately doomed much of the realm by burning the last crops before winter. In Jaime's last AFFC POV he wonders what his father would have done to feed the realm with winter coming, but in reality his father had already starved it. And with the fool Mace Tyrell ruling through proxy, not to mention Cersei's influence, things won't get better.
Assuming Stannis prevails against Ramsay, I think we could be looking at three major factions, or two depending how you look at it. Stannis with the Braavosi, who we know are no fan of dragons. Then "Aegon" and Dany; will they be working together, or will Aegon reject his aunt due to Dornish influence...who knows. And if TWOW leads to Aegon on the throne, how will he deal with the Others. I'd much rather have Stannis on the throne, as he knows what Westeros is up against.
In many ways the houses have set themselves up for failure. While Tywin may have been a strong leader, he ultimately doomed much of the realm by burning the last crops before winter. In Jaime's last AFFC POV he wonders what his father would have done to feed the realm with winter coming, but in reality his father had already starved it. And with the fool Mace Tyrell ruling through proxy, not to mention Cersei's influence, things won't get better.
Assuming Stannis prevails against Ramsay, I think we could be looking at three major factions, or two depending how you look at it. Stannis with the Braavosi, who we know are no fan of dragons. Then "Aegon" and Dany; will they be working together, or will Aegon reject his aunt due to Dornish influence...who knows. And if TWOW leads to Aegon on the throne, how will he deal with the Others. I'd much rather have Stannis on the throne, as he knows what Westeros is up against.
awesome chapter but it doesn't make Ramsay's letter BS. It now could very well be that Ramsay's letter was the truth
GRRM said this takes place before some of the Dance chapters
http://grrm.livejournal.com/257002.html
GRRM said this takes place before some of the Dance chapters
http://grrm.livejournal.com/257002.html
ZephyrFate
Banned
I root for Tyrion, Davos, Jaime, Arya, and a smorgasbord of other characters. The books aren't becoming convoluted, the scope is just becoming bigger.
Tomato, tomahto. Point is the main narrative focus of the story, the reason many people became fans in the first place, has fallen by the wayside, as all these other subplots are being expounded on.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Are you referring to the focus on the Starks?
Bran and the chapters that focused on the north/wildlings in general were awesome. I was blown away by the first chapter of Dance with Dragons but the rest of the book, while great, ultimately didn't live upto that.
Why? As others said, all the main characters from the first books are either dead or no longer main characters. The past 3 books have been like we've been stuck in Empire Strikes back without Han, Luke or Leia, all we have are doomed rebels and stormtroopers to root for.
I'm hoping the sample chapter from the end of the paperback version of ADWD gets posted online. I'd prefer not having to go into a B&N and read it there
ZephyrFate
Banned
That's not even true. Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, et. al. are still alive and still main characters. The only people who've actually died are Tywin, Robb, and Ned. The story has moved away from the Starks, but the story was never just about them anyway.
Starks vs Lannisters, Dany working to take back Westeros, the Others are coming.
One of those storylines is non-existent, the other two are moving at a snails pace.
That's right. We've had no resolution to any storyline for 5 books. For example; there was a time when I was paying very close attention to Aryas adventures. However, they've had little to nothing to do with anything for 3 or so books. You could say the same for others. So many character "arcs" lead no where. George has too many fucking characters!!
PhoenixDark
Banned
I agree that the Starks have pretty much been disregarded in terms of relevance to the overall events of the world, which will turn some people off (especially newcomers who were introduced to the series by the show imo). They're either dead, presumed dead, or in exile. It's fair to point out the house caused their own destruction but I can understand people being upset.
The lack of the 5 year gap has hurt the Starks moreso than anyone else imo. Instead of jumping 5 years and seeing a fully trained assassin Arya, a druid king Bran, a crowned Sansa, we've been stuck watching their slow progress as the rest of the world surpasses them. Are we to believe Arya will magically be a badass assassin after less than a year of training, or Bran becomes a powerful magic wielder in less than a few months? If Arya or Bran leave their training early, that makes a lot of their previous progression seem like a waste to a degree. And interestingly, most people want both of them to leave their training in some form.
That being said, I like where things are going. There are plenty of fascinating characters left, many of whom were indeed around in the first books (Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis, Davos, etc). I would argue the story was never solely about the Starks. We've seen multiple houses propped up - first the Starks, then the Lannisters, now the Tyrells to a certain extent.
The lack of the 5 year gap has hurt the Starks moreso than anyone else imo. Instead of jumping 5 years and seeing a fully trained assassin Arya, a druid king Bran, a crowned Sansa, we've been stuck watching their slow progress as the rest of the world surpasses them. Are we to believe Arya will magically be a badass assassin after less than a year of training, or Bran becomes a powerful magic wielder in less than a few months? If Arya or Bran leave their training early, that makes a lot of their previous progression seem like a waste to a degree. And interestingly, most people want both of them to leave their training in some form.
That being said, I like where things are going. There are plenty of fascinating characters left, many of whom were indeed around in the first books (Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis, Davos, etc). I would argue the story was never solely about the Starks. We've seen multiple houses propped up - first the Starks, then the Lannisters, now the Tyrells to a certain extent.
Yeah, the lack of a 5 year gap has totally ruined the character arcs of Arya, Bran and Sansa. They are stuck in a holding pattern right now until they can affect the main plot once again.
But also, the game of thrones itself has lost some of its luster for me. Who are the main players now? Varys still, I guess. Although he only just made his move at the end of Dance. Littlefinger is at the Eyrie and making plans that don't look like they will have an immediate impact on the throne. Doran's plans have been wrecked. Who knows what is up with the Queen of Thorns. Stannis is stuck in the north and his storyline has become bogged down with all sorts of boring, inter-faction politics. The sample chapter did nothing to move his storyline forward. Euron is chilling on the Shield Islands still, I guess? We all thought Cersei was done for, but now she has returned. Dany is making no progess towards returning. Aegon is the only one who actually is making things interesting.
At the start of the series, most of the major players for the throne were in or around King's Landing. Littlefinger, Cersei, Varys, Tyrion, etc. Now they are scattered all over the place and the decentralized nature of it means we are getting tons of minor supporting characters in each POV, making it hard to keep track of the main narrative.
But also, the game of thrones itself has lost some of its luster for me. Who are the main players now? Varys still, I guess. Although he only just made his move at the end of Dance. Littlefinger is at the Eyrie and making plans that don't look like they will have an immediate impact on the throne. Doran's plans have been wrecked. Who knows what is up with the Queen of Thorns. Stannis is stuck in the north and his storyline has become bogged down with all sorts of boring, inter-faction politics. The sample chapter did nothing to move his storyline forward. Euron is chilling on the Shield Islands still, I guess? We all thought Cersei was done for, but now she has returned. Dany is making no progess towards returning. Aegon is the only one who actually is making things interesting.
At the start of the series, most of the major players for the throne were in or around King's Landing. Littlefinger, Cersei, Varys, Tyrion, etc. Now they are scattered all over the place and the decentralized nature of it means we are getting tons of minor supporting characters in each POV, making it hard to keep track of the main narrative.
ZackieChan
Member
Also, everyone is on Degobah or Taatoine for years and years.
Aside from Theon's experience, almost all of the tension has been taken out of the story for me by its glacial pace. The charm and thrill of the first three books is all but gone for me. Maybe it's because I read all five back to back, but I almost don't care about anything in the story anymore.
Pollux
Member
Maybe Bran IS the great Other. We know he can communicate/see the past, and GRRM hinted that Bran might be able to change the past. He might BE the great Other....
I read all 5 back to back and care MORE about the main storyline since the last two books didn't progress much
I always felt the Others was the main plotline and the game of thrones was the extremely interesting subplot. Seriously, how much does fighting for a chair mean when zombies come
ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
Well the others better seriously fuck some shit up, if Dany comes in a burns them with dragons that will be so fuckin lame.
Pollux
Member
Isn't gunshot the guy who made the Winter is Coming blog? He knows his ASOIF, but I can understand how apathy begins to set in with the books when the show is so much more immediate, and ADWD was so very unsatisfying.
ZephyrFate
Banned
But that's not a fact or anything; many people enjoyed ADWD and felt it was quite satisfying.
I'm more excited for The Winds of Winter than I've been for any other ASOIAF novel.
shadowsdarknes
Member
I read them back to back to back as well, and although I found Dance to be a tremendous disappointment (mostly from reading message board hype) I still find the series thrilling enough to read on. There are some major plot arcs still unresolved. Feast and Dance so far have set up the story for some epic set pieces. Theon's sample chapter reads with tension and suspense, with that I am hopeful for TWoW. Impressions of Arianne's chapter are positive as well. Fan expectations for Dance were honestly unrealistic, and were pure speculation without much evidence. How can you not care who Jon Snow's mother is? His lineage is a mystery almost every fan is itching to have unraveled. The Other's are still a looming threat beyond the wall even now more than ever with reports of Wights swimming the sea's around Hardhome. How about the intrigue surrounding Braavos, the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men? And Aegon forming alliances with Dorne to further his conquest in the South? Or Dany facing Khal Jhaqo and a Khalasar 40,000 strong on a single mounted Dragon without reinforcements? Are you forgetting Jon's fate as a character as well? Jamie, Brienne and Stoneheart? Sansa and the Vale? Cercei's resurgence in Kings Landing? There are far too many events left to come to stop caring about the story in my opinion. There's a long wait to endure before TWoW releases which is the break you and I perhaps need? While I'm not nearly as sour as you are I mentioned before Dance was a disappointment. Over the course of the next couple of years I'm going to avoid ASoIaF threads and forums (curse you Westeros) keeping my hype levels at bay.
Just want to give a shout out to fans who thoroughly enjoyed Feast. I can't for the life of me understand the hate Feast receives.
ZephyrFate
Banned
Definitely loved Feast more than Dance, if only for the gorgeous writing. Goddamn, GRRM.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
I feel like I'm the only one who felt Dance was a huge step back up after Feast.
Lack of arc resolution aside, I pretty well loved it. My chief complaint is that because arcs didn't resolve much we have to wait X years for more, where X is a big number.
I'm going to bet that when all 7 books are out, people who read Dance will have no problems with it, because it flows into Winds.
Lack of arc resolution aside, I pretty well loved it. My chief complaint is that because arcs didn't resolve much we have to wait X years for more, where X is a big number.
I'm going to bet that when all 7 books are out, people who read Dance will have no problems with it, because it flows into Winds.
PhoenixDark
Banned
There's no doubt in my mind that TWOW will be amazing. While there's no doubt AFFC/ADWD were slower than the first three books, and had far larger scales - I think both books were very good. Now that we're done with major chronological issues, the series can move on. I think most fans are looking forward to many of the items on the list I made, plus some other things (like the contents of Robb's letter).
The story is bigger than just the Starks and Lannisters, and I'm glad we've gotten a glimpse of the rest of Martin's world. But I do think a 5 year jump could have been effective. Martin has said he couldn't get it to work though, so perhaps we should trust his judgement. I definitely think when the series is done, AFFC/ADWD will be better appreciated for the transitional novels they are. Given the various plot strands, there's no way TWOW won't be ASOS-esque in terms of action. While I expected ADWD to be more action packed as well, it made sense for it not to feature a host of major developments given AFFC happens at the same time, and outside of the alleged death of Davos we didn't get much news from the north in it.
That Theon chapter moves quite briskly, moreso than many of the later ADWD chapters.
The story is bigger than just the Starks and Lannisters, and I'm glad we've gotten a glimpse of the rest of Martin's world. But I do think a 5 year jump could have been effective. Martin has said he couldn't get it to work though, so perhaps we should trust his judgement. I definitely think when the series is done, AFFC/ADWD will be better appreciated for the transitional novels they are. Given the various plot strands, there's no way TWOW won't be ASOS-esque in terms of action. While I expected ADWD to be more action packed as well, it made sense for it not to feature a host of major developments given AFFC happens at the same time, and outside of the alleged death of Davos we didn't get much news from the north in it.
That Theon chapter moves quite briskly, moreso than many of the later ADWD chapters.
AlimNassor
Banned
So is it possible the others are just like us? I mean it would be slly if they were just demons. What if they've got their own civilization too and the wights are their version of slaves? They can't survive in anything but cold so once conditions are right they launch massive invasions for slaves.
Basileus777
Member
Lack of resolution aside, I really enjoyed the North stuff in ADWD. It was the Essos filler stuff that was disappointing. TWOW could be pretty amazing if GRRM fixes up the pacing and cuts down on the unnecessary filler.
There has to be some twist with the Others, it's not like GRRM to have a generic evil army of ice demons and zombies as the main villains. The Others haven't been developed at all so far, but I'm assuming that's Bran's purpose in this story.
There has to be some twist with the Others, it's not like GRRM to have a generic evil army of ice demons and zombies as the main villains. The Others haven't been developed at all so far, but I'm assuming that's Bran's purpose in this story.
Meh, he'll probably rewrite it 27 times anyway.
AlimNassor
Banned
The twist is the others are no different then us? I mean are they really all that bad considering what we already do. You have Gregor and his band so psycho rangers going around butchering people, you've got the bloody mummers, all the bandits, the wars. The others don't seem all that evil to me.
IamMattFox
Member
I'm curious, did any of the Dance with Dragons preview chapters go through any big changes between their original release and their published versions?
If GRRM wants to get shit done, probably not. He already said no one's going to experience Asshai other than through flashbacks.
The Blackfyre implication in one of Tyrion's river adventure chapters was removed and Jon actually did hang Janos in one of the earlier drafts. Other than some cleaning up and spicing, the actual going ons in his preview chapters don't change.
Pollux
Member
I'm calling it. With brans time travel or w/e he becomes the leader of the others. Boom plot twist of grrm caliber
If he can make the time traveling make sense, then it would be awesome. And while he's at it, GRRM should make Jaime Azor Ahai; forge Lightbringer by killing Brienne.
End it where it all started from.
ZephyrFate
Banned
The Winds of Winter is no doubt going to bring them to the fore. Not shameful in the slightest.
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