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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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re-reading clash for the new season and I love these early arya chapters. They are so disconnected with all the political bullshit thats going on and show the real grimy shit that happens to people. its awesome that there is no way they can just skip this stuff even though it has nothing to do with their main story line.
All these kings and queens are playing their game but aside from Tyrion Clash throws them into the backseat behind Arya who is just running around encountering all sorts of messed up shit.
All these kings and queens are playing their game but aside from Tyrion Clash throws them into the backseat behind Arya who is just running around encountering all sorts of messed up shit.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Patchface also foreshadows it in that book
bengraven
Member
That's right. I totally forgot about that. I wonder what brought it on.
*runs to Westeros.org*
What did Patchface say about it? I can't remember. I should have re-read that book damnit.
"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."
Was looking forward to seeing him this season but they decided not to have him.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I'd be happy with Sansa (despite her idiocy in the first book, I like her). And if I were a betting man (and I am) I'd put money on her. She's going to turn the tables on Littlefinger and dominate everything.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I would be more than happy with this.
Supermanisdead
Member
I would love to see Sansa as the Queen in the North and Jaime as King of the South.
I feel that Arya showed the situation of the Riverlands and the common people a lot better than that awful Brienne POVs. I'm not an Arya fan (especially with the timeskip cut, I've not a good feeling about her storyline..it could become really cheesy, like the 8 years old girl that kills everybody or something...) but I can't wait to see how her story is shown in Season 2, it's probably her best arc to date.
That was exactly why I had a problem with all the Brienne chapters in AFFC. I don't dislike Brienne as a character, but her entire arc (which had a fairly large chapter count) in that book was basically a retread of Arya's arcs in books 2 and 3, only Arya is a much much more interesting character and it was done better with her.
Basileus777
Member
The Iron Islands ruled the Riverlands before the conquest, together they were one kingdom. The Ironborn King Harren built Harrenhal, but was roasted by dragonfire. The Riverlords revolted against Harren and Aegon rewarded the Tullys with overlordship of the region.
If I remember correctly, the Tully aren't "kings", the original King of the area was from the Iron Islands.
Gotcha.
I must have overlooked that bit of history while reading the books. It explains why Balon was such a god-awful dick.
Seriously, Balon ruined everything. I had such high hopes for a Stark/Greyjoy alliance, with visions of Robb and Theon assaulting Casterly Rock dancing in my head.
Fucking GRRM.
I must have overlooked that bit of history while reading the books. It explains why Balon was such a god-awful dick.
Seriously, Balon ruined everything. I had such high hopes for a Stark/Greyjoy alliance, with visions of Robb and Theon assaulting Casterly Rock dancing in my head.
Fucking GRRM.
elrechazado
Banned
The best part is that the greyjoys weren't even the house of kings for the iron islands. Balon was a dick whose house owed everything to the targaryens. Not the drowned god
Basileus777
Member
Owed everything is a bit of a stretch. The Targs killed off the previous dynasty, but it was the Ironborn who chose the Greyjoys to rule over them. That's not the sort of situation that would engender some sort of loyalty, it's not like the Targs directly helped the Greyjoys.
Basileus777
Member
It's sworn directly to the King, hence the name. Before the conquest that territory belong to either Harren's kingdom or the Stormlands.
elrechazado
Banned
Been a while, but I don't think that's right. There wasn't a kingsmoot for thousands of years, what evidence do we have that the iron islanders chose them? My memory is that the targs did. Could be wrong though.
Basileus777
Member
It's in the AGOT appendix entry for Greyjoy.
I guess it doesn't count as a Kingsmoot because it wasn't declaring a King.
elrechazado
Banned
Cool thanks. Due for a reread anyway...boning up on my kingdom history is as good an excuse as any
bengraven
Member
Oh that's interesting. That never sunk in for me.
Supermanisdead
Member
So did the Targeryens not have their own kingdom before Aegon? I thought they lived on Dragonstone and were kings of the area south of the Vale.
Not only was Balon Greyjoy a dick, he was a goddamn moron. Attacking the North instead of the Westerlands went directly against his own self interests.
At that point in the saga, the Lannisters were losing the war, and it didn't look possible for them to come back. Half their forces had already been taken out by Robb, and King's Landing was looking to surely be taken by one of the Baratheon brothers. By allying with Robb and the North, the Greyjoy/Stark alliance would have almost assuredly taken out enough of the Lannisters that the Tyrells would not be so willing to enter into an alliance with the side that is clearly losing the war after Renly's death. With the Lannisters utterly defeated, the Greyjoys have a very good chance of being able to remain Kings of the Iron Islands and however much of the Westerlands they're able to carve out for themselves.
Instead, he decides to attack the North like a fucking dumbass, pretty much ensuring a Lannister victory over Robb. With the North defeated, Tywin would have no reason to allow Balon to continue in open rebellion as King of the Iron Islands and would just go put him down again. He had the choice of allying with the side that, if victorious, would allow him to be a king again, or the side that he damn well knows has no interest in letting him rule.
This decision is so unrealistically dumb that it just struck me as GRRM trying to shit on the Starks as much as possible without any founding in logic, just to add some "shock value."
Basileus777
Member
They just ruled Dragonstone. Aegon landed at "King's Landing" and founded the city, but before that it was probably part of the Stormlands.
I don't think they were floating around Essos. They lived on Dragonstone for a century or so. Though it's mentioned in ADWD that Volantis wanted to ally with the Targs and use their dragons to recreate the Valyrian Empire.
They were from Essos, Valyria specifically. After the natural disaster that wiped out Valyria, they floated around Essos until Aegon decided to invade Westeros with his dragons. I believe Dragonstone was the launching point for his invasion.
Not to mention that the Westerlands are rich with gold and silver mines and several port cities, while most of the North is a vast expanse of rocks, forests and swamps.
elrechazado
Banned
I'll be wrong again probably, but I don't think that's right. They had been established a long time in dragonstone which was one of the outlying outposts of valyria. Definitely well established there before jumping to the mainland.
They were only the Lords of Dragonstone, which had been used as a trading outpost for Valyria with Westeros for a long time. They were some minor lords of Valyria who survived the Doom and decided to use their Dragons to establish an empire.
Basileus777
Member
Balon was a man who thought in terms of conquest not rule and was driven by the desire for revenge against Ned Stark for the deaths of his sons. He's also afraid of Tywin and (rightly) judges that holding Lannisport is likely impossible. His decision is stupid, but it's well in character.
That is not the 'original' line of kings. The books mention the area being ruled by House Mudd in the time of the First Men.
Basileus777
Member
Yes, though the Riverlords haven't been independent in a long long time. The Storm Kings conquered the area, then the Ironborn, the Targs, the Starks, and now they are still ruled by the Iron Throne. The curse of geography pretty much makes the area indefensible.
Yes, there's that too.
Yeah, the only way I've been able to rationalize his decision is with the conclusion that he's just a brutish moron with no critical thinking skills, which really fits in well with all of the characters and culture of the Iron Islands.
The Ironborn are my most hated group of people in the series, with an absolutely retarded and repulsive culture. I want nothing less than for whoever wins the war to kill every single Ironborn, with the possible exceptions of Asha and that Reader fellow, and then burn the Iron Islands into ashes and salt the earth that remains to make it completely uninhabitable. Robert should have done this after their first rebellion, imo.
Ah, what could have been.
If only:
- Balon hadn't launched a ridiculous North invasion.
- Robb had kept it in his pants.
- Robb had pardoned Lord Karstark.
- The wildfire hadn't been quite so effective at wiping out Stannis's invading force.
Depending on how these last two books turn out, I think I would have preferred that story to the one we got. Oh well.
The Riverlands are like Europe in Risk. Totally not worth the five army bonus per turn; much better to take North and South America, or South America and Africa.
If only:
- Balon hadn't launched a ridiculous North invasion.
- Robb had kept it in his pants.
- Robb had pardoned Lord Karstark.
- The wildfire hadn't been quite so effective at wiping out Stannis's invading force.
Depending on how these last two books turn out, I think I would have preferred that story to the one we got. Oh well.
The Riverlands are like Europe in Risk. Totally not worth the five army bonus per turn; much better to take North and South America, or South America and Africa.
Basileus777
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
elrechazado
Banned
Yeah, that right there. Imagine if lysa helps, and robb marries margary tyrell. GG everyone.
Not to mention if Lysa hadn't been a bitch and the Vale joined Robb.
Plus, Robb marrying Jeyne didn't mean shit. The Freys would have still held the Red Wedding and betrayed Robb, only it would have likely been his own wedding rather than Edmure's. Walder Frey just wanted to be on the winning side, and at that point it was obvious that Robb had no viable way of holding the Riverlands. I'm sure Robb breaking his word pissed off Frey, but it was far from the deciding factor in his betrayal.
Every possible thing that could go wrong for Robb and the Starks did.
edit: The only thing Robb could have done differently that could have realistically changed the outcomes is if he had told Edmure his plans (letting Tywin pass Riverrun). This would have likely resulted in Robb crushing the remaining Lannister forces, killing Tywin or taking him hostage. Which would also mean Tywin wouldn't be able to show up and reinforce King's Landing, giving Stannis a chance of victory.
The main reason I didn't like the Iron islands story is because its founded by this fucking insane delusion that hey can rule a considerable portion of westeros. The only reason they don't get completely destroyed like in the previous rebellion is because everyone else has more important wars to attend to. Robert was too easy on the Greyjoys, he should have at least kille Balon and installed new leadership. They're just like one of those small pesky dogs that winds up the big dog. I like Theon's chapters in Dance, and I love Victarion's deadpan humour, but ultimately I hope the male line of the Greyjoy's is extinguished by the end of the series.
elrechazado
Banned
They did that because Bolton sent the fake orders to them to get them to do it, knowing this is exactly what would happen.
I must have missed that detail as well.
I definitely need to do a re-read soon.
The entire continent would have been better off if the Dreadfort had been given to another family several decades prior. The Boltons are a goddamn disgrace.
Basileus777
Member
Well, Jaime could have not been an idiot, and Robb could have lost the war at the start by failing to break the siege of Riverrun.
That was deliberate sabotage by Roose Bolton.
Robb had already lost the war by the point anyway. A Stannis victory and a divided South was the only thing that could have let him win. Robb was stupid to ever allow himself to be declared King and be forced into an impossible situation, he should have bent the knee to Renly.
That was Roose Bolton intentionally getting as many non-Dreadfort men killed as possible in preparation for the RW.
Large Professor
Member
Interesting piece from Foreign Affairs about the political philosophy in ASOIAF: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137360/charli-carpenter/game-of-thrones-as-theory
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