Well the last book was originally to be titled A Time for Wolves (now a Dream of Spring).
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Well the last book was originally to be titled A Time for Wolves (now a Dream of Spring).
I'm not so sure he couldn't have pulled out a stalemate if he'd managed to keep the Freys, Karstarks and Boltons on his side.
The Baratheon forces were gone, and IIRC, Dorne wasn't really involved, so it would have been Winterfell + Riverrun vs King's Landing, Casterly Rock, and Highgarden.
Recruiting the Vale would have made it 3 x 3.
The real turning point was his decision that he had to re-take Winterfell, IMO.
Basileus777
Member
The Storm Lords bent the knee to Joffrey. But they wouldn't even be necessary, The Lannister and Tyrell forces along would have had an overwhelming advantage. The Tyrells alone can raise 70k men, which is more than twice what Robb had left. The Vale wasn't coming to help, Lysa was already marrying Littlefinger. Robb would be greatly outnumbered with a ruined North and a devastated Riverlands, he had no chance of winning anymore. His own Lords would have started to abandon him from the hopeless reality of the situation, just as Bolton did.
Watch Euron do some crazy magic shit and end up sitting on the throne by Dream.
I'm hoping the Reach gets fucked over by the end of the series. The Tyrells are the most pompous, manipulative family in the realm aside from Loras, and they've had it remarkably easy thus far.
Battles have been won against worse odds. Robb just needed to meet them on a battlefield that would give his troops a force multiplier. Come to think of it, Moat Cailin is exactly that... fucking Greyjoys. Balon ruined everything.
Battles have been won against worse odds. Robb just needed to meet them on a battlefield that would give his troops a force multiplier. Come to think of it, Moat Cailin is exactly that... fucking Greyjoys. Balon ruined everything.
Basileus777
Member
Well, the Ironborn are ravaging their lands, I suppose it's a good start. The Vale and Dorne are the only places that haven't been fucked yet, I'm looking forward to seeing that change.
Looks like Griff's gonna take care of that. Unless Mace bends the knee to him lol. And I don't think Loras is in as bad of shape as we (and Cersei) think.
Well he was under the impression that a lot of the kingdoms would rise for him. He may have had Dorne on his side, although whether Doran would actually let Arianne mary him is somewhat questionable.
elrechazado
Banned
Well, with that logic, one wonders what griff and company think they'll do...
Supermanisdead
Member
40K men + 40k horses. Especially if those horses have armour
Basileus777
Member
The Dothraki use multiple horses per rider like the Mongols, but good luck getting those horses across the sea.
They don't seem to be planning a conventional war. I doubt they'll march out and take on the Tyrell host head on.
He wanted 40k of their elite warriors, each and every one of them mounted. The combined forces of the Tyrells and Lannisters might be 100k, but how many of those numbers are their elite fighters vs the common man wielding a sword for the first time?
good read. I enjoyed it (and agree)
elrechazado
Banned
No I agree, just saying "x has x men" doesn't mean that they will get beat by a larger force because that's not necessarily what their plan is.
Steelyuhas
Member
Such a frustrating move by Balon. The Greyjoys attacking the North is basically just to pit Theon into the internal struggle of Greyjoys vs Starks, especially given Theon's arc in ADWD.
That was also infuriating. I remember when I read that, and I was like how can they possibly not go over all of that?
Going back and reading that chapter, there are some differences. The wolf man that Dany describes has an iron crown and is at the head of a feast. Robb was not the head of that feast, he was a guest. His crown is bronze although there may be some iron parts to it. I'm not sure but some of the food and utensils may also be different. I need to go back and read the red wedding chapter. I still think Dany probably sees the red wedding in her house of the undying vision but there is a small possibility it may be something else.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Exactly. The majority of those soldiers would be conscripted farmers with swords and little discipline. The Dothraki would be a highly trained force who have been fighting battles their entire lives. Most of the fighting forces of the Seven Kingdoms are regular men, rather than battle hardened soldiers.
Not to mention that Dorne would likely join them as well.
I'm still not so sure that's the spoiler he saw. Unless he confirmed it elsewhere, I think he may have heard of the Purple Wedding instead. I feel like after his reaction to Ned's death, the Red Wedding would tear him up. He seemed almost excited about the spoiler he heard.
Nah dude. It was the Red Wedding. He was at the head of the feast because he was the King. The scene she saw depicted the aftermath of the wedding, after they sewed Greywind's head onto his body and everything. Thus the only guests she was seeing were dead Northerners. Plus you have to remember that he wrote the Dany chapter before he wrote the Red Wedding chapter. That will explain away a lot of the minor inconsistencies such as the crown and food items.
No, but I will now. Thank you.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'm pretty sure he was spoiled on Robb and Catelyn's death. In his latest video (previewing S2) he mentions that while he knows how "they" die, he doesn't know how they died, and is already coming up with theories.
I hope he does another episode on the Podcast of Ice and Fire so he can share his theory lmao
See that's where I'm confused though. He doesn't say "they." He refers to an event happening. I'm thinking he's either talking about the Purple Wedding or Tyrion killing Tywin. He seems too excited about seeing it for it to be the Red Wedding. But I would love to see what it is and what his theory is as well.
Edit: Yeah rewatching his video I'm pretty sure it's Tyrion killing Tywin. He says it happens at the end of third book and he is wondering how and WHY it happens. The deaths of Robb, Catelyn, or Joffrey require no one to wonder why, they are all involved in a war, it would make sense they would die. Tywin being killed by his own son would leave one to wonder why though.
I can stomach most of the decisions made by all of the other characters in the series. This is the only one that really bugs me. Why the hell would you not explain to Edmure, more of less the leader of the Riverlands, what their plan was? They knew the type of person he was, and beyond that, it just makes sense to share your war plans with someone as high up as Edmure. Like, doesn't he sit on the war councils and stuff?
Laughing my ass off.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36518553&postcount=2
Edit: Good job, Duckroll.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36518553&postcount=2
Edit: Good job, Duckroll.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
He assumed that there were a bunch of Targaryen loyalists among the seven kingdoms (and Robert thought the same).
Plus, a Dothraki army, if they're anything like the Mongols, are archers first, arakh wielders second, meaning that they can win through superior tactics. Their tactic was to harry the opposing army with arrows and not engage in a proper fight while the opposing (on-foot) army tired itself out. Any movements by cavalry were met with a fake retreat during which the opposing cavalry were hit by more arrows.
The Mongols were basically able to devastate non-mobile armies like those of
blainethemono
Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al53Y2dFveU&t=27m20s
he doesn't mention exactly what it is but I think I remember reading something in his comments about it being the red wedding...not really sure though
the otaku assemble guy who tripped out after ned died in the most hilariously entertaining way.
what'd he do?
The OP ended his post with "I hope someone punts that little shit Joffrey to the afterlife soon."
The first guy to reply wrote: "Season 3/Book 3 spoiler:
You'll get your wish.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
I'm tempted to say Aegon because he's got Varys (the secret Targaryen bastard no-one speculates about), Connington and possibly Tyrion on his side
but
Dany has fucking dragons. The devastating potential of the Dothraki to hurt conventional armies doesn't hurt, either. If Aegon rules, it will be at her mercy. (Stannis lol; Melisandre will abandon him soon enough and the Braavosi are probably using him as a feint.) And the Wall will need her dragons and dragonglass when the Others attack in force. Would she really settle for ruling outside Westeros when the Others are turned back? The Dragon Horn or the Faceless Men sending Jaqen to the Citadel is the wild card there, whether it's controlling or neutralizing the dragons.
The bigger thing I see going against it is how neat and tidy that ending would be. The young, well-coached long-lost heir takes the throne with Varys as spymaster, a dying Connington his general, Tyrion as adviser or future Hand, and likely marrying Arianne Martell in the process. Almost twee.
Indeed. Bran is a greenseer, a surviving Jon Snow is either Azhor Azhai or a crucial element in holding the Wall, Arya is about to tear through Westeros with a vengeance as filtered through the agenda of a crazed but politically adroit death cult, Sansa is well-placed for a number of political manoeuvres, Rickon is a viable male heir on the loose; the Starks are definitely set to mold the shape of the endgame.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
It's a possibility. And not a cheap one, I think, because Varys's manipulation of events in KL to bring about an opportune return for Aegon has been seeded through the books before that. Cersei commenting that Varys vastly overestimated his own abilities when she gained power was a nice moment of irony, although it did hold a tinge of truth. In an actual sense, he should rightly be considered very influential, but events have well and truly spiralled out of his control on all fronts, as evidenced from the first with Ned Stark's execution - not that he's ever explicitly laid claim to controlling things. Martin's view of history in this way, and others, is one I admire; a few great men (of varying moral and intellectual shades!) can shape the course of events, but no-one can control them.
The other strong possibility is Dany. However, Martin has made sure to include ways her dragons are vulnerable (i.e. the Horn and/or the Citadel). Either way, a Targaryen reclamation has the best odds. Stannis winning out would surprise me, but that's probably a good case for it happening - I mean, how shocking would it be if he was Azhor Azhai. Euron's only winning roll is the Dragon Horn. Littlfinger is hedging until the winning side becomes clear. Dorne hates the Lannisters and would support a winning Stannis or Targaryen. The Lannisters are cluster-fucked right now, between the Iron Bank, two Targaryens, and the North in disarray - Tyrion will probably steer them into clear waters beside the winning side once Cersei is ousted completely. And the Tyrells are the definition of fair-weather allies.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I like A Time for Wolves so much better than A Dream of Spring. A Dream of Spring just doesn't do it for me.
Castor Krieg
Banned
I need to get this started again. I gave up 200 pages into A Game of Thrones, but I got to know some characters. Yesterday at the airport I picked up Book 5 and read the back of Daenerys rulling some city with 3 dragons - that's enough for me to read the four previous novels. I hope Daenerys turns out to be a major character, does she?
elrechazado
Banned
Yeeeeeeeeeeeah, go ahead and leave this thread now.
hahahaahaha, did it get him banned?
Do you guys recommend other series that are similar to this series?
I've read all the Robin Hobb books. I loved the farseer trilogy.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Before I had the chance to read the books, I had Ned's death, Robb's death, Cat's death and subsequent resurrection spoiled for me.
But it kind of made for an interesting read that way because I had no clue as to the circumstances of any of those events. So as I was reading I was in a constant state of expecting these characters to die at any moment. And even when something like the RW finally came, the actual writing of that event is just so brutal and shocking.
The great thing about A Song of Ice and Fire is that GRRM deals with the ramifications of the characters getting killed off, so its not like "Oh, Ned's dead" and everyone forgets. Ned's death and the RW become major catalysts for subsequent events.
The God of Nonexistence
Member
Yeah, I went into the Red Wedding fully spoiled and it was still one of the most harrowing and despair inducing things I've ever read.
bengraven
Member
I had the Red Wedding spoiled, but only Robb's death. Cat dying was a shock to me at least, though I didn't believe it until I went online to confirm it.
Re-reading A Clash of Kings, I see that Catelyn specifically urged Robb not to send Theon to the Iron Islands to propose a treaty. She wanted Robb to send someone else as a diplomat and keep Theon close at hand. Of course he didn't listen.
That one decision might have altered the entire war. Fucking Robb.
That one decision might have altered the entire war. Fucking Robb.
No, it wouldn't have. You can tell from Theon's chapter that they were already preparing for the invasion of the North before he arrived. Balon clearly doesn't give a shit about Theon and would probably prefer if he died so that Asha could take over instead, since he liked her more. He was sending Theon as a sign of good faith, and because how was he supposed to know Balon would turn out to be the biggest moron in the book?
Theon wouldn't have been able to take Winterfell, but the North invasion still would have happened.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Even if Balon still invades the North, without Theon taking Winterfell, a lot of things change. The supposed deaths of Bran and Rickon are what lead to Robb seeking comfort from Jeyne, and Catelyn releasing Jaime in the hopes of getting her daughters back.
If Theon doesn't capture Winterfell, Robb still has the Freys and Karstarks (and presumably the Boltons) on his side, and Jaime as a hostage, which would really change the landscape of the war.
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